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Maelstrom better than new Apoc for sniping?

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Xequecal GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:12:00 - [1] With optimal range rigs not being stacking nerfed with other optimal mods it sure seems so. The Maelstrom's massive powergrid and CPU allows it to fit a full rack of the biggest guns, three projectile rigs, and a MWD with only one grid mod and a 3% PG implant. Maelstrom: 8x 1400mm II Quad Lif Booster Rockets 2x Sensor Booster II (Range) 3x Tracking Computer II (Optimal) RCU II 3x Gyrostab II DCU II 3x Projectile Locus Coordinator 229km targeting range, 216km optimal, 380 DPS. Apocalypse: 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II MWD II 2x Sensor Booster II (Range) Tracking Computer II (Optimal) 3x Heat Sink II 2x Reactor Control Unit II True Sansha Adaptive Nano Plating Damage Control II Algid Energy Administrations Unit Energy Locus Coordinator Ionic Field Projector 229km targeting range, 216km optimal, 401 DPS. They have the same targeting range and optimal range, the Apoc has slightly higher DPS, but the Mael has a far higher alpha strike, doesn't use cap, and has far better damage types for fleet work. It also has slightly more effective hit points.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:15:00 - [2] Good point, this should shut the nerf-apoc threads once and for all. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Ombrae Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:15:00 - [3] Edited by: Ombrae on 14/03/2008 12:16:17 You compare a tier 3 BS with a tier 2 one... why dont you compare tempest with apoc, or maelstrom with abaddon? Also every sniper know arty give better alpha, while beam get better tracking... everything balanced :) Ombrae & Goramath - Altera Odyssea -
Viryana Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:16:00 - [4] Edited by: Viryana on 14/03/2008 12:16:57 Yes, I too think a tier 2 ship should be better than a tier 3 ship at sniping. edit Sorry - it was so obvious that even though being very quick about it, others beat me to it.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:16:00 - [5] Because all fleet fights happen at 215km distance =P More like 130 - 160 usually.
Xequecal GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Sokratesz Because all fleet fights happen at 215km distance =P More like 130 - 160 usually. What's your point? The Maelstrom is clearly better at these distances as well. Both have three damage mods, to optimize fighting at, say, 150km all both ships could do is cut range mods for extra tank.
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:20:00 - [7] it depends what you mean for sniping if you have 3-4 bs trying to instapop cruisers yep mael is better (only situation where alpha is better than dps) if you are lonely sniper then apoc prob is superior due to better tracking and it can fire more volleys at the target fleet apoc is superio as dps >>>> alpha still if you are doing the solo or small gang gate sniping an abaddon will be your best choice due to its extreme dps, expecially now that lasers got a nice boost vs armor Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Xequecal GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Ath Amon it depends what you mean for sniping if you have 3-4 bs trying to instapop cruisers yep mael is better (only situation where alpha is better than dps) if you are lonely sniper then apoc prob is superior due to better tracking and it can fire more volleys at the target fleet apoc is superio as dps >>>> alpha still if you are doing the solo or small gang gate sniping an abaddon will be your best choice due to its extreme dps, expecially now that lasers got a nice boost vs armor Even if DPS was clearly better than alpha, (it's not) the Maelstrom still does far more damage to most fleet ships due to 50% EM resists on armor vs. 10% Explosive resists on armor.
Markit Broker Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:34:00 - [9] For gods Sake just remove the whole minmatar race once for all, so there will be less aggressive Amarrian hate threads "f*cking boost amarr, MORE!!" (so we will own everyone, especially minmatar. You are roleplaying an arrogant race if it reminds you anything
Scout McAlt State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:44:00 - [10] Apoc has to fit true sansha mods as well?
Mona X Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Good point, this should shut the nerf-apoc threads once and for all. Nerf apoc and maelstrom. :P
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:48:00 - [12] generally id say yes, but it mostly depends by opponent ship configuration, true that atm there are more armor tankers than shield tankers but is something that could actually change (mael itself is not that used in fleet as the pest do basically the same for lower cost) also i'm not that impressed by the new apoc revamp for long range fight, even if maybe it will get better results with faction ammos and an optimal rig or 2 but personally in fleet i will prefer an aba some cap troubles but the dps + resists make it imo really worth prob the main "fear" for the apoc will be a pulse setup + optimal rigs but is something that probably need some testing to see if it is really worth... sure as a sniper with pulse it have good potential due to very good tracking (compared to a long range setup) and high dps from pulse... we will see Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:30:00 - [13] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 14/03/2008 13:35:47 The Maelstorm costs 140M while the Apocalypse costs around 95M. but apart from that the fitting you presented for the Apocalypse was not as optimized as the one for the Maelstorm Try this Apocalypse ultra sniper fiting LOWS 3 Heat Sinks II 1 Damage Control II 2 Reactor Control II 1 Tracking Enchacer II MEDS 3 Sensor Booster II (targeting range) 1 100MN MWDII HIGHS 8 Tachyon Beam Laser II RIGS 1 Ancillary Current Router I 2 Energy Locus Coordinator I You will have 249KM Targeting Range, 248KM Optimal + 25falloff, 401 DPS (needs a Hardwiring implant KMB-50 that gives +3% CPU but you were using a similar one but for PG for your Malestorm example so... :p ) Has more DPS,better targeting range, better optimal range,less Alpha strike but can switch targets faster since has faster refire rate,better tracking -about double actually, doesn't need reloading which is very important considering the laggy situations in the fleet battles were reloading might take you 5 minutes or more.
Scout McAlt State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:34:00 - [14] that acr rig is like 50mil. So thats a 145mil apoc
Kamazani The Legion. Requiem-Aeternam	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Scout McAlt that acr rig is like 50mil. So thats a 145mil apoc If you are trying to use a price arguement, you cannot selectively include the price of one rig for one ship (and not the other two) while ignoring the rigs of the other entirely ;) --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Scout McAlt that acr rig is like 50mil. So thats a 145mil apoc I don't know were are you shopping from but i got mine about 20M at Amarr(oris) Apart from that though these fits are really experimental. I don't think is very viable for someone to bring such a Maelstorm on a fleet battle or such an Apocalypse. Without considering such exotic fittings though out of the box the apocalypse is clearly better because it offers 163+25 with tachyon Beam Laser II and Aurora L therefore "out of the box" . So it has plently of room to fit sensor boosters and tank so to be able to shoot at 150+ were the fleet warp ins usually happen. To give an example the Maelstorm out of the box offers 108+44. That means it will have to spend several slots to reach a similar optimal range with Apocalypse. Usually the fleet fiting used for it is at 140+falloff though which is ok although not as valid as Megathrons or Apocalypses.
Jeetah Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:55:00 - [17] to me it seems like the apoc is actually better :-/ I'm mean it has better dps, doesn't need that pg implant to fit all that stuff, changing damage types is a lie, since once you change your optimal will get halved, and if you care so much about armor resistances, why don't you include shield resistances too? All ships have shields, and they mostly have precisely 0 EM resist, and 50 explosive. I'd still like to point out, that you have 10 shots in a maelstrom before having to reload, while the apoc will just keep firing even in the most horrible lag till the end of time. I dunno, this comparision smells of fail.
Sionide Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Xequecal They have the same targeting range and optimal range, the Apoc has slightly higher DPS, but the Mael has a far higher alpha strike, doesn't use cap, and has far better damage types for fleet work. It also has slightly more effective hit points. This thread fails and fails hard. SHOCK Mael has highest alpha (everyone who has a brain in Eve should already know this!). Yes, arties don't give best dps, which is why the apoc has better dps. As people mentioned you are comparing bsII to bsIII, and trying to argue that what the mael was designed for should not be what it was designed for (ranged alpha strike). So what you want is that since the apoc have a great tank, better dps, better tracking then the mael it should ALSO have better alpha. Wow, you amarr loons have no clue about this game.
Veryez Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:22:00 - [19] Isn't the Mega Beam equivalent to the 1400, and the Tachyon actually a larger weapon? Perhaps this is why it's harder to fit...
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:56:00 - [20] Another of your fail threads? Do you realize that EM is usually the lowest resistance on almost ANY capital ship? And sub capital ships don use tanks, so the high em resist on armor is compensated on shields? Simply check killboards and you will notice that for already a long time amarr BS are the best fleet ships when engaging capitals and specially in lag situations. Maelstrom is not bad for sure, but you miss the point that apoc can be made a 200 km sniper and very effective without using rigs!! that means cheap. That makes it still superior to maelstrom. I, personally prefer the tempest because its more agile, and allows me to fit a 160 km sniper setup with a SHIELD DD tank, that still can warp out pretty fast. A lot of people will prefer megathron, because is stupidly easy to fit and can be setup to tank any DD with good armor and hull HP. Others will prefer Rokh, because can be made a so so sniper that can resist to 3 DDD blasts..... There is no THIS IS THE BEST sniper. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Veryez Isn't the Mega Beam equivalent to the 1400, and the Tachyon actually a larger weapon? Perhaps this is why it's harder to fit... Yes
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:05:00 - [22] Apoc is fantastic now - i <3 ccp for this change!
Indigo Johnson Dojo Sushi	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Veryez Isn't the Mega Beam equivalent to the 1400, and the Tachyon actually a larger weapon? Perhaps this is why it's harder to fit... lol
Ryysa Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Ath Amon fleet apoc is superio as dps >>>> alpha Rest of your arguments failed right there. When you can kill a ship with 1 volley with concentrated fire, it doesn't matter what your refire rate is. In a good proper fleet you will get exactly one volley at the target, then you start switching target, and that takes longer than the ROF on most/all guns. So alpha is everything in fleet. But it's ofcourse cool to post in threads, and pretend to know everything, when all you have been part of is a noobcorp, most likely do not have skills to use any t2 large, and have never been in a fleet battle. EW Guide - KB Tool - My Music
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Ath Amon fleet apoc is superio as dps >>>> alpha Rest of your arguments failed right there. When you can kill a ship with 1 volley with concentrated fire, it doesn't matter what your refire rate is. In a good proper fleet you will get exactly one volley at the target, then you start switching target, and that takes longer than the ROF on most/all guns. So alpha is everything in fleet. But it's ofcourse cool to post in threads, and pretend to know everything, when all you have been part of is a noobcorp, most likely do not have skills to use any t2 large, and have never been in a fleet battle. Well to be fair with him, when you are trying to kil capitals ships DPS IS > alpha. But then also DoT > DPS > Alpha ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Well to be fair with him, when you are trying to kil capitals ships DPS IS > alpha. But then also DoT > DPS > Alpha Who is sniping capitals? Maybe better to use close range BS for that yes? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Kagura Nikon Well to be fair with him, when you are trying to kil capitals ships DPS IS > alpha. But then also DoT > DPS > Alpha Who is sniping capitals? Maybe better to use close range BS for that yes? just if you are a noob and want to be in range of dreadful officer web and scramblers that motherships use. Not to even start about the fighters. using snipers is the only reasonable way to fight large number of capital ships without having huge losses. if you attack a mothership with close range battleships, you will need 2 times the number of sniper. Because you will loose 70% of them to the motherships. The only close range battleship that should drop on capitals is an Apoc with 8 Heavy neuts. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Ajna Anami Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Kagura Nikon just if you are a noob and want to be in range of dreadful officer web and scramblers that motherships use. Not to even start about the fighters. using snipers is the only reasonable way to fight large number of capital ships without having huge losses. if you attack a mothership with close range battleships, you will need 2 times the number of sniper. Because you will loose 70% of them to the motherships. The only close range battleship that should drop on capitals is an Apoc with 8 Heavy neuts. okay, so no I have never assaulted a mom, but seing as how their fighters can follow you even if you warp away, I can't imagine that snipers are twice as good as close range. when mom sends her fighters after you, and you have only long range equipped, you'll be at their mercy cause you won't be able to track them. unless you can pop all (is it 20?) that the mom can launch as soon as they leave the drone bay, and before they head your way? add to that the fact that close range weapons use less ship resources, leaving more room to fit a tank. I'm just not seeing how the close range BS with better dps, better tracking, and better tank is that much worse in this situation?
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Ath Amon fleet apoc is superio as dps >>>> alpha Rest of your arguments failed right there. When you can kill a ship with 1 volley with concentrated fire, it doesn't matter what your refire rate is. In a good proper fleet you will get exactly one volley at the target, then you start switching target, and that takes longer than the ROF on most/all guns. So alpha is everything in fleet. But it's ofcourse cool to post in threads, and pretend to know everything, when all you have been part of is a noobcorp, most likely do not have skills to use any t2 large, and have never been in a fleet battle. Only in situations where EVE isn't lagging; very good in smaller gangs/fleets but in situations where it takes 5 minutes to switch targets due to lag, DPS is a fair bit more useful than alpha, and especially with Amarr BSes that dont have to reload.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Ajna Anami Originally by: Kagura Nikon just if you are a noob and want to be in range of dreadful officer web and scramblers that motherships use. Not to even start about the fighters. using snipers is the only reasonable way to fight large number of capital ships without having huge losses. if you attack a mothership with close range battleships, you will need 2 times the number of sniper. Because you will loose 70% of them to the motherships. The only close range battleship that should drop on capitals is an Apoc with 8 Heavy neuts. okay, so no I have never assaulted a mom, but seing as how their fighters can follow you even if you warp away, I can't imagine that snipers are twice as good as close range. when mom sends her fighters after you, and you have only long range equipped, you'll be at their mercy cause you won't be able to track them. unless you can pop all (is it 20?) that the mom can launch as soon as they leave the drone bay, and before they head your way? add to that the fact that close range weapons use less ship resources, leaving more room to fit a tank. I'm just not seeing how the close range BS with better dps, better tracking, and better tank is that much worse in this situation? That is why you warp to a POS and let the POS guns shred the stupid fighters that followed you. Or just warp to a pack of small ships that will kill the fighter. Beleive me, most capital pilots hate the idea of their fighters following you. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

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