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Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:03:00 - [1] Why didnt these ships get love? Why didnt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. Absolution needs a 4th mid or it cant really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Sentinel cant even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. /discuss.
Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:03:00 - [2] Why didnt these ships get love? Why didnt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. Absolution needs a 4th mid or it cant really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Sentinel cant even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. /discuss.
SirDanceAlot Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:14:00 - [3] I still dont think ccp likes amarr. Or there is just so much broken that it will take years.
Draahk Chimera Monopropellant Fools	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:44:00 - [4] Pilgrim has the best tank of the force recons. It is an awesome ship in gang and the best recon for solo. Not a random statement, I fly them regurarily on my other acc. Abs I dont fly, but EVE is a gang game. Try flying caldari for a while :P Dont fly sentinel either, but try using mwd and nos instead of neuts. The mwd will take down your cap to where you start sucking. As an added bonus you can mwd as long as your target has cap making you a bit more safe, espicalially if hes tracking disrputed by someone with bonus to tracking disrputors... I do fly both Kitsune and Hyena. Kitsune is a nice ship agreed, but it can only mwd a little while else it caps out. Moving at base speed inside the ship at the top of the enemy gangs most wanted list often result in fatal beatings. Hyena would be nice, unless it was about half as fast as my vagabond :( With EAS 4 the web range is 18km, any reasonably competent vaga or nanoishtar pilot will be out of web range before the hyena gets lock, then proceed in outrunning the "frig".
SirDanceAlot Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 21:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Draahk Chimera Dont fly sentinel either, but try using mwd and nos instead of neuts. The mwd will take down your cap to where you start sucking. That doesnt work in practice.
Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 21:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Draahk Chimera Pilgrim has the best tank of the force recons. It is an awesome ship in gang and the best recon for solo. Not a random statement, I fly them regurarily on my other acc. Trust me, as soon as you are forced to fight within 12km range, wich the pilgrim is, that tank mean ZERO, NADA, NOTHING.
Domania Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.03.14 22:03:00 - [7] Edited by: Domania on 14/03/2008 22:05:05 Quote: Sentinel cant even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. I disagree, I find the sentinel to be one of the best EW ships out there. I highly doubt it is unable keep 1 tracking disruptor running. I've never used a TD on one yet. But it sure can keep a MWD running forever, while having the ability to cap out small ships and cruisers. :) So it's either your setup sucks big time, or you've never flown one before. The other ships you listed, I've never flown before.
5n4keyes Sacred Templars DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.03.14 23:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Why didnt these ships get love? Why didnt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. Absolution needs a 4th mid or it cant really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Sentinel cant even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. /discuss. Ever flown a Falcon? I beleive they are the worst, i mean sure they can jam, but they are never going to win any awards for the time it takes to kill someone
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:38:00 - [9] Sentinel is fine, I have also no problem with MWD+TD... lowskiller?
Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Gordon Red Sentinel is fine, I have also no problem with MWD+TD... lowskiller? How about you try to just use ONE neut (its bonused on the ship so it counts as a mod it should be able to use inherently) and with MWD off. Youll cap out pretty fast. It needs more cap or more bonus to neuts.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.03.15 09:27:00 - [11] My take. Pilgrim did get love by way of increased viability of tracking disruptors. It excels as a cloaked scout/covert cyno popper and with buffer+resists can make a tough regular cynoer. Thinking of it as a solo vessel is wrong unless you spend the time to pick your targets, in which case any of the recons will do just as well. Absolution is a difficult one. As much as I would love a fourth mid, a change like that would make it overpowered compared to the other commands or the slot would come from the lows eliminating the benefit. Get a designated tackler and gank the hell out of it, you'll be doing 600dps+ against pretty much all targets - better (but more expensive) than a BS which has tracking/signature res. issues against cruisers/frigs. Sentinel is my new favourite ship and a I know a lot of other people who have trained Amarr frig 5 to access it. It shares top-spot among EAS with the Kitsune - cap denial and three flights of drones while moving at near interceptor speed ... Matari EAS webbing has limited use due to lock range/relative speed and it quite frankly has pitiful damage. Gallente EAS dampening is again limited by lock range plus the fact that the utility of dampeners is not what it used to be. My evolving setup: 2x Small Neuts 1x Small NOS 1MN MicroWarpdrive II 2x Tracking Disruptors 1x Warp Disruptor Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II 12x Small drones (I like 4 armour rep and 8 combat) Speed is > 3000m/s and it can run MWD+Point, 1xTracking+1xneut, point+2xtracking. If tackling is taken care of swap the point for a cap recharger for even more neuting or to increase speed Two nuets will kill the cap of pretty much all frigs since chances are they have used their MWD for one cycle or more. Friendly frigs will love you for the repairing in between skirmishes and few interceptors will survive against 4 drones with no cap.
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Gordon Red Sentinel is fine, I have also no problem with MWD+TD... lowskiller? How about you try to just use ONE neut (its bonused on the ship so it counts as a mod it should be able to use inherently) and with MWD off. Youll cap out pretty fast. It needs more cap or more bonus to neuts. I use one neut also btw. (try to bring some skills on 5 and micromanagement ftw) My setup is close to the setup from Hirana Yoshida (posting above).
ITTigerClawIK PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:40:00 - [13] i tryed out a Sentinal n the test server due to my currant wallet restrictions and i found the cap on the sentinal to be prefectly fine with 3 TD's working and an AB as well as a DCU running permumently and with a small repper working part time to.. only reasn the DCU and repper was on there was to test how far the cap could really stretch and dam was i impressed ^_^ im now thinking of getting into one real couse it performed so well so id take another look at the sentinal there Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Vorgx Universal Army INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:23:00 - [14] well sadly all caldari ships sucks for damage.... and now after this new boost we suck at tanking too lol
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Vorgx well sadly all caldari ships sucks for damage.... and now after this new boost we suck at tanking too lol I hear drakes still afk tank lvl 4s. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Vorgx Universal Army INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:35:00 - [16] i am not talking about missions talking about pvp, different story
Shira Rayborn Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.16 18:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Vorgx i am not talking about missions talking about pvp, different story So you want even easier lvl 4 afk tanking in BCs or how are you gonna balance that?
1Evildude We Come In Peace	Posted - 2008.03.16 19:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Why didnÆt these ships get love? Why didnÆt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. Absolution needs a 4th mid or it canÆt really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Sentinel canÆt even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. /discuss. No offence, but you're delusional if you think there are problems with Amarr. Abso: Decent tank, no ammo, great range, instantly switches crystals, good tracking against nano ships. Your problem is you want every ship a WTFPWN solo ship. Also, pilgrim can still do allot and actually isn't the worst recon, it's the Arazu at the moment. It's clear from your comments that you know nothing about the other races. * Of all the things I've lost, I miss my boot.ini file the most *
1Evildude We Come In Peace	Posted - 2008.03.16 19:24:00 - [19] Originally by: 5n4keyes Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Why didnt these ships get love? Why didnt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. Absolution needs a 4th mid or it cant really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Sentinel cant even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. /discuss. Ever flown a Falcon? I beleive they are the worst, i mean sure they can jam, but they are never going to win any awards for the time it takes to kill someone My alt is a Falcon pilot and out of the 4 recons, I'd say it's the best ship at it's "role" * Of all the things I've lost, I miss my boot.ini file the most *
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.16 21:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Vorgx well sadly all caldari ships sucks for damage.... and now after this new boost we suck at tanking too lol I hear drakes still afk tank lvl 4s. I hear Drakes do over 600 DPS.
Cailais VITOC	Posted - 2008.03.16 22:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida My take. Pilgrim did get love by way of increased viability of tracking disruptors. It excels as a cloaked scout/covert cyno popper and with buffer+resists can make a tough regular cynoer. Thinking of it as a solo vessel is wrong unless you spend the time to pick your targets, in which case any of the recons will do just as well. Please feel free to explain how awesome the pilgrims tracking disruptors are if you're webbed - which you will be using medium neuts. Please also feel free to explain how the pilgrim excells over any other cov ops cloaking ship in game? Finally, can you explain why I would use a 'tough cynoer' like the pilgrim (price range 50 - 60mil) over say, a 2mil isk barge and an alt? Thx. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Gliding 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.03.16 22:38:00 - [22] Edited by: Gliding on 16/03/2008 22:38:57 Why has every race except Gallente had a boost is sum way? They only ppl that know is CCP. Originally by: Pestachi0 CCP kicked my dog Signature created by me.
Ruah Piskonit PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.17 02:11:00 - [23] The Absolution and Sentinel are fine. These two ships perform well. The Pilgrim however, does need some love. . . ----
Hortoken Wolfbrother Free Lapland The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.03.17 02:26:00 - [24] Sentinel is great, absolution is ok, Pilgrim needs love. Pilgrim is just kinda ????? Its an expensive cyno ship.
Ferocious FeAr THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:54:00 - [25] Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 17/03/2008 04:54:57 Absolution is a great ship. Sentinel is a frigate, can't say much. Pilgrim is fine if you know how to fit it (recon 5 helps). Don't hate me, learn to love me
Jaketh Ivanes Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.03.17 08:56:00 - [26] Only thing I want to comment, is the Pilgrim fix request. Pilgrim is fine. Compared with the curse, you get to chose your targets more easily. A Curse has to wait in ambush while the Pilgrim can hunt activly. Imagine you get the Nos7Neut bonus on the Pilgrim, why would you fly a Curse? Curse can't fit a Covert Ops cloak but can more safely use it's Nos/Neut. My guess is, that those that complain about the Pilgrim needing a boost are trying to fly it like a Curse. The fact that its the Curse's Nos/Neut range bonus those people want, is a pretty clear indication of the true problem.
DeadRow Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.17 10:06:00 - [27] Originally by: Ferocious FeAr Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 17/03/2008 04:54:57 Absolution is a great ship. Sentinel is a frigate, can't say much. Pilgrim is fine if you know how to fit it (recon 5 helps). tbh pilgrim needs more CPU and/or PG, a ship that needs lvl5 ship skill to fit decently is broken, imo. Quote: Iz in ur base, implanting ur dudes
Arana Tellen The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.17 10:49:00 - [28] Originally by: DeadRow Originally by: Ferocious FeAr Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 17/03/2008 04:54:57 Absolution is a great ship. Sentinel is a frigate, can't say much. Pilgrim is fine if you know how to fit it (recon 5 helps). tbh pilgrim needs more CPU and/or PG, a ship that needs lvl5 ship skill to fit decently is broken, imo. All ships are balanced assuming you have level V skills. --------------------------------- Oh noes! Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 12:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Imagine you get the Nos7Neut bonus on the Pilgrim, why would you fly a Curse? Every other races force recons get the range bonus and everyone IS PICKING THE CLOAKING ONE. Why shouldnt amarr have a equally good cloaking one?
Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 12:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Hirana Yoshida My take. Pilgrim did get love by way of increased viability of tracking disruptors. It excels as a cloaked scout/covert cyno popper and with buffer+resists can make a tough regular cynoer. Thinking of it as a solo vessel is wrong unless you spend the time to pick your targets, in which case any of the recons will do just as well. Please feel free to explain how awesome the pilgrims tracking disruptors are if you're webbed - which you will be using medium neuts. Please also feel free to explain how the pilgrim excells over any other cov ops cloaking ship in game? Finally, can you explain why I would use a 'tough cynoer' like the pilgrim (price range 50 - 60mil) over say, a 2mil isk barge and an alt? Thx. C. He cant explain it because hes making alot of stuff up. I can see his nose growing from here.
Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 12:31:00 - [31] Originally by: 1Evildude Also, pilgrim can still do allot and actually isn't the worst recon, it's the Arazu at the moment. No the pilgrim is worse then the gallente recons. But the curse is better then the gallente recons. But curse is far behind the minmatar and caldari ones.
Cailais VITOC	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Only thing I want to comment, is the Pilgrim fix request. Pilgrim is fine. Compared with the curse, you get to chose your targets more easily. A Curse has to wait in ambush while the Pilgrim can hunt activly. Imagine you get the Nos7Neut bonus on the Pilgrim, why would you fly a Curse? Curse can't fit a Covert Ops cloak but can more safely use it's Nos/Neut. My guess is, that those that complain about the Pilgrim needing a boost are trying to fly it like a Curse. The fact that its the Curse's Nos/Neut range bonus those people want, is a pretty clear indication of the true problem. Being able to 'choose your targets more easily' is frankly useless if 95% of those targets can kill you stone dead. Do you actually fly the pilgrim?? Curse/Pilgrim pilots fly the curse because it has survivability - the ability to operate at range (as per the other races recons). The pilgrim does not have this ability and frankly melts within web range, which it always is. The Pilgrim needs fixing, the Arazu needs fixing - in fact CCP need to go back and look at Electronic Warfare and ALL the recons in detail because at the moment theyre a really daft class of ships. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Amira Shadowsong State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Cailais The Pilgrim needs fixing, the Arazu needs fixing - in fact CCP need to go back and look at Electronic Warfare and ALL the recons in detail because at the moment theyre a really daft class of ships. C. Yeah they really need to look into the whole recon and e-warfare to rebalance it. Its all messed up now tbh.
Rasta we g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Why didnt these ships get love? Why didnt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. Absolution needs a 4th mid or it cant really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Sentinel cant even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. /discuss. pilgrim does suck but used right its effective, abso is awsome just plain awesome. and sentinel is same as the curse, curse has stupid cap issues only fair the tiny version should have the same prob
Angelic Eviaran University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:24:00 - [35] Originally by: Rasta we pilgrim does suck but used right its effective, abso is awsome just plain awesome. Thats not even remotely correct. Pilgrim is beyond suck.
sdthujfg State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 20:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: Rasta we pilgrim does suck but used right its effective, abso is awsome just plain awesome. Thats not even remotely correct. Pilgrim is beyond suck. QFT.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:38:00 - [37] Really, the pilgrim is fine? I don't think so. I'm pretty close to the pilgrim but I can't fit it how I want. Now my rapier and huginn can fit 95% of what I want to fit. Main problem is CPU. Now the Amarr flavor of ships state that they have tons of powergrid but little CPU. This is fine, but doesn't translate well to recons. Just like the Amarr flavor of lots of lows slots and few mediums wouldn't make much sense on a recon ship. Consider: Falcon gets 625 CPU Rapier gets 562.5 CPU Arazu gets 525 CPU Pilgrim gets 437.5 CPU With recon IV a covert cloak + recon probe takes up 320 cpu, throw in a 50 cpu mwd and other normal modules like cap injector or TDs that you would want on a Pilgrim and you will CPU out very quickly. But, but, but, with recons V the ship really fits well! -Grats for you bro. But is the Falcon impossible to fit well without Recons V? How about the Rapier or Arazu?
Angelic Eviaran University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Vaal Erit Really, the pilgrim is fine? I don't think so. I'm pretty close to the pilgrim but I can't fit it how I want. Now my rapier and huginn can fit 95% of what I want to fit. Main problem is CPU. Now the Amarr flavor of ships state that they have tons of powergrid but little CPU. This is fine, but doesn't translate well to recons. Just like the Amarr flavor of lots of lows slots and few mediums wouldn't make much sense on a recon ship. Consider: Falcon gets 625 CPU Rapier gets 562.5 CPU Arazu gets 525 CPU Pilgrim gets 437.5 CPU With recon IV a covert cloak + recon probe takes up 320 cpu, throw in a 50 cpu mwd and other normal modules like cap injector or TDs that you would want on a Pilgrim and you will CPU out very quickly. But, but, but, with recons V the ship really fits well! -Grats for you bro. But is the Falcon impossible to fit well without Recons V? How about the Rapier or Arazu? QFT. Pilgrim needs billions of different fixes. Its stupidly broken.
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.20 19:07:00 - [39] The people who say the pilgrim folds and dies to everything in eve are lying. The people who say it doesnt need help are wrong.
C0NRAD 21st Raiders Regiment TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:53:00 - [40] curse - gang work, she needs protecting pilgrim - solo work
Kingwood Amarr The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:50:00 - [41] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida My take. Pilgrim did get love by way of increased viability of tracking disruptors. It excels as a cloaked scout/covert cyno popper and with buffer+resists can make a tough regular cynoer. Thinking of it as a solo vessel is wrong unless you spend the time to pick your targets, in which case any of the recons will do just as well. You have never flown a Pilgrim. You have no idea what you're talking about. After reading this I didn't bother to read the rest of your text.
Lalita Prestoc	Posted - 2008.05.01 01:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Cailais Please feel free to explain how awesome the pilgrims tracking disruptors are if you're webbed - which you will be using medium neuts. Ermmm 2 TDS with Optimal Range Disruption scripts (added falloff makes them so much better) + your own web @ around 9-10km range means you'll take very little damage from a targets guns. You could really specialize and rather than armour rigs you could use TD effectiveness rigs. For example a Megathron + Neutron T2 using Null (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts) = 1.9 opt + 4.4 falloff. So: 100% damage = 1.9km 50% damage = 6.3km 0% damage = 10.7km a geddon + megapulse T2 using MF (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts) = 2.5 opt + 2.8 falloff. So: 100% damage = 2.5km 50% damage = 5.3km 0% damage = 8.1km a geddon + megapulse T2 using scorch (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts) = 7.6 opt + 2.8 falloff. So: 100% damage = 7.6km 50% damage = 10.4km 0% damage = 13.2km a geddon + megapulse T2 using scorch (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts and 2 TD effectiveness rigs) = 2.5 opt + 2.8 falloff. So: 100% damage = 5.5km 50% damage = 8.3km 0% damage = 11.1km Of course this isn't saying you could take a Megathron/Geddon but demonstrates the TD effect in Web range, if you can reduce large weapons to take minimal damage you can reduce smaller size weapons to.
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:41:00 - [43] The Pilgrim has been turned from best solo recon to worst slowly over time, mostly indirectly via multiple patches. #1: ECM nerf (it was uber before this) #2: Nos nerf (HUGE nerf to the Pilgrim) #3: Overloaded webs (no longer can you orbit around 12k) #4: Drone bay nerf (less possible DPS) #5: Drone shield recharge nerf Aside from the nerfs, there's the fairly recent proliferation of MWDs in Eve, much thanks to the introduction of bubbles. When I started playing, it was common for HACs to fit an AB. That's right, players at one time actually used ABs in combat, and to good effect. MWDs used to be mostly limited to interceptors and blaster boats. Now that every ship fits a MWD and 90% WEB, Pilgrim is fusked. Having a tracking disruptor bonus and a neut bonus which has to work in web range is completely oxymoronic. Back when you would orbit with an AB around 12k (outside of web range) and use a tracking disruptor or 2, it actually worked. However, Eve has since changed, a LOT, and the Pilgrim has been left in the dust. To get with the times it needs a range bonus so it can be nanoed like every other HAC/Recon. ----------------------------------- You're not a pirate unless your -10
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:18:00 - [44] pilgrim could be fixed by giving it +700 base cap, and +15-20 cpu imo absolution is fine, it is not meant to solo, but if you do want to solo in it, you discard the web (there is a reason it can shoot to 40km with close range guns). have no knowledge of sentinel but it doesn't seem to be too bad (having piddled around with EFT, and yes I know this doesn't actively reflect ingame)
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Originally by: Cailais Please feel free to explain how awesome the pilgrims tracking disruptors are if you're webbed - which you will be using medium neuts. Ermmm 2 TDS with Optimal Range Disruption scripts (added falloff makes them so much better) + your own web @ around 9-10km range means you'll take very little damage from a targets guns. You could really specialize and rather than armour rigs you could use TD effectiveness rigs. For example a Megathron + Neutron T2 using Null (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts) = 1.9 opt + 4.4 falloff. So: 100% damage = 1.9km 50% damage = 6.3km 0% damage = 10.7km a geddon + megapulse T2 using MF (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts) = 2.5 opt + 2.8 falloff. So: 100% damage = 2.5km 50% damage = 5.3km 0% damage = 8.1km a geddon + megapulse T2 using scorch (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts) = 7.6 opt + 2.8 falloff. So: 100% damage = 7.6km 50% damage = 10.4km 0% damage = 13.2km a geddon + megapulse T2 using scorch (2 Balmer TD with opt dis scripts and 2 TD effectiveness rigs) = 2.5 opt + 2.8 falloff. So: 100% damage = 5.5km 50% damage = 8.3km 0% damage = 11.1km Of course this isn't saying you could take a Megathron/Geddon but demonstrates the TD effect in Web range, if you can reduce large weapons to take minimal damage you can reduce smaller size weapons to. EFT warrior much? I'd appreciate a fraps of you staying at 9km range from a target while getting webbed yourself and the target MWD'ing towards you. Please link once done. I'll pay you 50mil for the effort. I really don't get why people who have no idea what they're talking about have to chime in about a ship desperately needing a boost saying it's fine.
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:54:00 - [46] Oh god, I just re-read this and saw you're using 2 TD's. First, tracking disruption speed is the only viable script to use for a close-range boat like Pilgrim, especially against BSs.. Second, please link me the setup you're using, lossmail maybe? Since you feel able to chime in, you're obviously flying this ship. And third, I would really really appreciate a fraps of your Pilgrim against a good PvP'er. I will pay you 50mil for the effort. I'm waiting for this with great anticipation. Or, if you don't have fraps, some killmails. That would do fine too.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:32:00 - [47] I disagree, range disruption works better in web range, where your transversal is minute anyway
Sonya Rayner REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:50:00 - [48] We all should look at other ship's bonuses: Minmatar: Rapier (force) 7.5% to TP effectivenes per cruiser, 60% to web range per recon; 4/6/4 layout; Huginn (combat) 7.5% to TP effectiveness per cruiser, 60% to web and 5% RoF for AM/HM/HAM launchers; 4/6/4 layout; Caldari: Falcon (force) -10% ECM cap usage, +20% ECM optimal per cruiser, +20% to strength per recon; 4/7/3 layout; Rook (combat) -10% ECM cap usage, +20% ECM optimal per cruiser, +20% to strength per recon; +20% to strength and 5% to HM/LM kinetic damage per recon; 6/7/2 layout; Gallente: Arazu (force) 5% to RSD effectiveness per cruiser, +20% to scrambler/disruptor optimal per recon; 4/6/4 layout; Lachesis (combat) 5% to RSD effectiveness per cruiser, +20% to scrambler/dispruptor optimal and 5% to RoF for AM/HM launchers per recon; 5/7/3 layout; Amarr: Pilgrim (force) 5% to TD effectiveness per cruiser; +20% to nos/neut effectiveness per recon; 4/5/5 layout; Curse (force) 5% to TD effectiveness per cruiser; +20% to nos/neut effectiveness and +40% to nos/neut range per recon level; 5/6/4 layout; (i intentionally left out the cruiser's skill bonus for damage sice it's same for both recons and left out role bonus and cloaking device bonus on force recons) Now let's see the differences between each race's force and combat recons. Minmatar: Combat recon (Huginn) gets +5% RoF for AM/HM/HAM launchers; no layout differences; Caldari: Combat recon gets +5% kinetic damage for LM/HM; +2 hi, -1 low, +1 slot overall; Gallente: Combat recon gets +5% RoF to HM/AM launchers; +1 hi, +1 med, -1 low, +1 slot overall; Amarr: Combat recon gets +40% nos/neut range bonus; +1 hi, +1 med, -1 low, +1 slot overall; Now i ask you: which one of these stand out? Bingo, it's the amarr recon! It gets a second bonus for its recon EW role instead of 5% missile-related bonuses. All other race's combat and force recons are similar in their EW capability (minus the slot layout differences) the only difference being the combat ones getting some damage bonus and force recons getting cloaking bonuses. Why should i choose Huginn over Rapier for webbing/target painting? Why should i choose Rook over Falcon for jamming? Why should i choose Lachesis over Arazu for tackling/dampening? Why one amarrian recon is clearly superior to other on the battlefield of EW while other races recons aren't? Now let's see what roles people usually use the abovementioned recons. Minmatar: Going somewhere? (webbing, yeah, that's obvious). Anyone ever seen rapier/huginn targetpainting an enemy? Caldari: Jam the sh!t out of them! (and nothing else, caldari do only one thing, but they do it very well i must add) Gallente: You're not going anywhere! (dampening and scrambling the targets) Amarr: Crap, where'd all my cap gone?!? (neuts and tracking disruptors in some situations) So, basically they all are used to somehow disable either ship's attacking potential or defences (tank, speed, run away). In rare ocassions - both. And given all these roles for particular race both of their recons perform similarly. Well, except for the pilgrim, which doesn't get all of its combat counterpart's EW bonuses! Now, how this can be fixed? 1) remove some ew bonuses to make other races' force recons less powerful in the EW field as their combat counterparts; 2) remove +40% optimal bonus for nos/net from curse and replace it with +5% to missile damage or similar missile-related bonus; 3) give some optimal for nos/net to pilgrim (it may be not +40%, +20% will do just fine) - it'll still be a bit worse than curse, but a much more viable for combat than it is now; 4) give some nos/net cap usage bonuses to pilgrim - so at least if it can't neut from long range, it could do it more effectively; 5) replace pilgrim's nos/neut effectiveness bonus with optimal bonus - it can't nos/neut as effectively as curse but will be still a viable option due to cloaking ability; ____________________
Sonya Rayner REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:51:00 - [49] reserved for continuation, soon™ ____________________
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:59:00 - [50] Edited by: Kingwood on 01/05/2008 12:03:05 No range bonus, Pilgrim is a solo close range ship and should stay that way. Either revert the NOS nerf for Amarr recons or give the Pilgrim better resists and more Cap/way better cap recharge. But I'm gonna wait for your next post to comment. Edit: In response to Captator: Please please tell me how you keep 9km (webbed, anyone?) distance from your target continouusly. If you have 2 TD's you have no speed mod. If you have a speed mod you only have 1 TD. I would love to hear your secret, please share. You know that at 9km the target will either burn away or close range, depending on whether the pilot knows what he's doing and feels the ship can handle the Pilgrim, right? Please share. Awaiting with anticipation.
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:10:00 - [51] Edited by: Kingwood on 01/05/2008 12:13:41 Originally by: Sonya Rayner Eve wouldn't be fun if all ships had the same layout and same playstyles, would it? No ship in eve is meant to be solopwnmobile (¬ some Dev, can't remember who exactly). edit: i hope someone from CCP reads this. although i'm sure they're already have considered most of the possible ways to balance pilgrim out. That statement was from Zulupark. The guy who changed ship resists across the board in order to "boost" Amarr. So, you're saying Eve wouldn't be fun if all ships were the same, but are contradicting yourself by stating in the next sentence that no ships should be able to solo? The Pilgrim and Curse are cap warfare ships. A role which makes them solo or very small gang ships. People like me like these ships because we hate the large gangs and blobs most of Eve consists of at the moment. You change these ships, I will switch to Rapier, Sacrilege, or Vagabond for solo ability. Hey, let's nerf these ships too, while you're at it. Make a post about it. Edit: Ships like the Pilgrim is what makes Eve unique. Stop advocating a change of their intended role, and focus on fixing their blatant brokenness?
Sonya Rayner REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:18:00 - [52] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: Sonya Rayner Eve wouldn't be fun if all ships had the same layout and same playstyles, would it? No ship in eve is meant to be solopwnmobile (¬ some Dev, can't remember who exactly). edit: i hope someone from CCP reads this. although i'm sure they're already have considered most of the possible ways to balance pilgrim out. That statement was from Zulupark. The guy who changed ship resists across the board in order to "boost" Amarr. So, you're saying Eve wouldn't be fun if all ships were the same, but are contradicting yourself by stating in the next sentence that no ships should be able to solo? The Pilgrim and Curse are cap warfare ships. A role which makes them solo or very small gang ships. People like me like these ships because we hate the large gangs and blobs most of Eve consists of at the moment. You change these ships, I will switch to Rapier, Sacrilege, or Vagabond for solo ability. Hey, let's nerf these ships too, while you're at it. Make a post about it. You got it all wrong. Solopwnmobile != able to solo. I, myself, hate the blobs too. I prefer 5-10 people gangs. And i prefer a good old plate-tanked armageddon slicing and dicing its way through enemies with laz0rz. I also loved the pilgrim when it was intorduced to the game. But now there's only a miserable remains of what used to be a great solo/small gang ship. And that must be changed. What i'm stating is, that pilgrim should be brought in-line with other recons as for now it is clearly inferior to them. ____________________
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:21:00 - [53] Edited by: Kingwood on 01/05/2008 12:21:28 Edit: Awesome, I checked. You sure love flying in large blobs, though I didn't see you in a Curse or Pilgrim. I'll keep checking, maybe I didn't look hard enough. I see where you're coming from, senseless to keep arguing with you. That above was my second edit. Maybe I misunderstood you then. The gang size a Curse or Pilgrim are valuable in is 3 ships at max, imo. I will re-read your posts and see where I misunderstood you.
Lalita Prestoc	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:41:00 - [54] Edited by: Lalita Prestoc on 01/05/2008 13:42:26 Originally by: Kingwood Oh god, I just re-read this and saw you're using 2 TD's. First, tracking disruption speed is the only viable script to use for a close-range boat like Pilgrim, especially against BSs.. Second, please link me the setup you're using, lossmail maybe? Since you feel able to chime in, you're obviously flying this ship. And third, I would really really appreciate a fraps of your Pilgrim against a good PvP'er. I will pay you 50mil for the effort. I'm waiting for this with great anticipation. Or, if you don't have fraps, some killmails. That would do fine too. Troll much? Never said it would take BS, was just demonstrating that if you can reduce large turrets using long range ammo down so you take practically no damage when in web range think what sort of range mediums turrets will have. I never said the Pilgrim doesn't need anything, I was just pointing out how strong TD's are. But hay, lets just flame and troll. Wheres your loss mails or fraps to show how rubbish a pilot you are? Don't have to prove anything to you mr troll, the fact you think Tracking disruption scripts are best highlights this point. What also highlights this point is you arn't decloaking and webbing the target and letting him MWD. Go suck somewhere else and put words in other peoples mouths.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.01 14:49:00 - [55] Originally by: Kingwood In response to Captator: Please please tell me how you keep 9km (webbed, anyone?) distance from your target continouusly. If you have 2 TD's you have no speed mod. If you have a speed mod you only have 1 TD. I would love to hear your secret, please share. You know that at 9km the target will either burn away or close range, depending on whether the pilot knows what he's doing and feels the ship can handle the Pilgrim, right? Please share. Awaiting with anticipation. Quite simply they don't have any cap to run propulsion mods, and are hard pressed to run a web on me.
Endless Subversion Club Bear	Posted - 2008.05.01 15:15:00 - [56] Op has this totally right. Pilgrim is hurting badly. Lack of a role and inability to actually survive fights in current eve environment. Sentinel is garbage. Why would I ever fly that ship over a curse? And why would I fly a curse over a sac for solo or pretty much any nanohac for gang? Absolution: Lol. Any setup without a gang mod begs the question, "Why don't you bring a BS?". Furthermore with 3 mids it wastes one of the very few advantages commands/bcs have over BS which is their locktime for tackling. Too bad you can't tackle with 3 mids slots and laser cap usage. The only good thing about absolutions is salvaging the ones you blow up. Self Destruct & LogOffs
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.05.01 15:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Kingwood No range bonus, Pilgrim is a solo close range ship and should stay that way. Back when the Pilgrim actually worked as a solo close range ship, people also armor tanked Curses and Ishtars. The difference is that in this nano-age, Curses and Ishtars were able to adapt, whereas the Pilgrim couldn't due to it's limitations. Close range fighting these days ends up with you getting webbed. Pilgrim used to fight outside of web range (if only by a small amount) but that made all the difference. Overloaded webs make sure that's not possible anymore. Just a 5% range bonus per level would be enough. ----------------------------------- You're not a pirate unless your -10
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.01 19:53:00 - [58] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Edited by: Lalita Prestoc on 01/05/2008 13:42:26 Originally by: Kingwood Oh god, I just re-read this and saw you're using 2 TD's. First, tracking disruption speed is the only viable script to use for a close-range boat like Pilgrim, especially against BSs.. Second, please link me the setup you're using, lossmail maybe? Since you feel able to chime in, you're obviously flying this ship. And third, I would really really appreciate a fraps of your Pilgrim against a good PvP'er. I will pay you 50mil for the effort. I'm waiting for this with great anticipation. Or, if you don't have fraps, some killmails. That would do fine too. Troll much? Never said it would take BS, was just demonstrating that if you can reduce large turrets using long range ammo down so you take practically no damage when in web range think what sort of range mediums turrets will have. I never said the Pilgrim doesn't need anything, I was just pointing out how strong TD's are. But hay, lets just flame and troll. Wheres your loss mails or fraps to show how rubbish a pilot you are? Don't have to prove anything to you mr troll, the fact you think Tracking disruption scripts are best highlights this point. What also highlights this point is you arn't decloaking and webbing the target and letting him MWD. Go suck somewhere else and put words in other peoples mouths. Lossmail: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=Kingwood&id=3335575&page=1&filter=losses#mail A buddy in a curse and me jumped a baiting Ferox who had a buddy in a Hurricane in system. Then 2 more of corpmates showed up and I was dead really fast. Killmails: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=Kingwood&id=3335574&page=1&filter=kills#mail Killed a Sabre while tanking a Rapier and 2 Falcons. http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=Kingwood&id=3333587&page=1&filter=kills#mail Fight was Falcon + Pilgrim vs. Deimos, 2 Ruptures, Thorax and Blackbird. (Rupture pilot and Deimos pilot returned in Blackbird and Thorax) http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=Kingwood&id=3328972&page=2&filter=kills#mail Fight was Rupture and Pilgrim vs. Thorax and Vexor. Now show me your killmails. For now I think you're just an EFT warrior. And don't sound so butthurt, please.
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Kruel Originally by: Kingwood No range bonus, Pilgrim is a solo close range ship and should stay that way. Back when the Pilgrim actually worked as a solo close range ship, people also armor tanked Curses and Ishtars. The difference is that in this nano-age, Curses and Ishtars were able to adapt, whereas the Pilgrim couldn't due to it's limitations. Close range fighting these days ends up with you getting webbed. Pilgrim used to fight outside of web range (if only by a small amount) but that made all the difference. Overloaded webs make sure that's not possible anymore. Just a 5% range bonus per level would be enough. I didn't fly the Pilgrim back before the NOS nerf, so I will let others who did give input. I can't really imagine that working, tbh. If I was fighting a Pilgrim I would either burn away or close range, depending on whether I feel my ship is capable of taking on a Pilgrim. Neuting cap doesn't mean that much when I fit a cap booster, so I will always be able to turn on my MWD. Anyways, I'm out of this thread.
Ferocious FeAr THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:43:00 - [60] Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 01/05/2008 21:43:59 4th mid on an abso? C'mon give me a break about the 'friend' comment, try flying caldari and tell me if you need a 'friend' I can't see how amarr pilots still continue to complain about their ships when ccp is actively trying to make them better. Within the last 6 months amarr has got the biggest boost... I think you guys should be happy with what you got. Sigh, greed is annoying. I can understand the pilgrim issue though. Don't hate me, learn to love me
Nahemasab	Posted - 2008.05.02 09:00:00 - [61] Abso is perfectly fine. On the Pilgrim I would consider a Range Bonus on Neuts, rather than the suck amount bonus tbh. Maybe not same range as Curse though. Else u will always have to get in web range to use Capacitor-Warfare. Sentinel will always have trouble running neuts. Hard to fix that.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.02 10:47:00 - [62] or just give it a role bonus getting a t1/t2 med neut to reach 15km
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.02 10:56:00 - [63] or maybe its time to introduce corpum neuts?
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:01:00 - [64] Originally by: Nahemasab Abso is perfectly fine. On the Pilgrim I would consider a Range Bonus on Neuts, rather than the suck amount bonus tbh. Maybe not same range as Curse though. Else u will always have to get in web range to use Capacitor-Warfare. Sentinel will always have trouble running neuts. Hard to fix that. If suck amount gets changed to range amount, I will switch to using Pulses or Blasters. (People already do this, btw). Just revert the NOS nerf, or increase resists and cap amount/recharge.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:15:00 - [65] agreed, without the amount bonus it is a completely pointless ship.
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.03 10:56:00 - [66] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Why didnt these ships get love? Why didnt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. Absolution needs a 4th mid or it cant really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Sentinel cant even run 1 of its own EW mods without capping out, while other races can just keep full racks of it going inherently. One of the worst EAS out there and as usual caldari and minmatar got the greatest EW ships. /discuss. Pilgrim is a very good ship it just isnt as good as it used to be. Tracking disruptor's will force any minmatar ship to get close to you or deal no damage. It is a amazing solo ship fyi, my arazu couldnt solo a 0.0 ratting bs. Absolution is a very good ship too. It can fit a full rack of its most powerful guns , a 10mn micro warpdrive a cap booster and a medium rep and still have spare powergrid. It has totally interchangeable range able to hit out very far and can tear battleships a new whole in a matter of seconds. It outclasses its very close counterpart (astarte) due to the fact that you can fit a great buffer tank and still do amazing damage out 20k + whereas astarte needs to get in under 10k to start doing major damage. I dont know about sentinel but from your views on the other ships im guessing your talking bull. The arazu is in much greater need than the pilgrim. If they absolution got a forth mid it would outclass the Astarte in every single way appart from total suicide ubergank. So yeah just stop whining the only amarr ships that are broken are the navy issue apoc , omen , proph and avatar(jus cause ddd suxororz).
Kingwood Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.03 12:35:00 - [67] You got it wrong: Pilgrim is a bad ship which players can still get a little bit of use out of. I would really like to see a killmail of yours soloing a ratting 0.0 BS, btw. You're correct about the Arazu, but maybe open another thread instead of using this one?
chiefyuk Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.03 16:02:00 - [68] You are all total complete **wits! The sentinel is fine, it does its role well. Its a cheap cap killing, tracking disrupting, inty killing gang ship. Absolution, also, fine, does what its meant to do... just because you cant solo it doesnt mean its 'broken'. The pilgrim is an incredibly awesome ship. Do none of you know how to fit or fly ships? ffs, i dont mean to be rude, but are you all that horribly ******?
chiefyuk Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.03 16:04:00 - [69] I forgot to say... 1-2 tracking disruptor's will stop the tracking of any medium guns. double webs with 1 td, tracking? what? You all fail.
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.03 16:10:00 - [70] You gigantic pile of troll. Should I ever run into you in Eve I will pod you repeatedly. But I guess that requires undocking. Seriously, Pilgrim needs a Cap boost and increased resists. No MWD is fail.
chiefyuk Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.03 16:15:00 - [71] Originally by: Kingwood You gigantic pile of troll. Should I ever run into you in Eve I will pod you repeatedly. But I guess that requires undocking. Seriously, Pilgrim needs a Cap boost and increased resists. No MWD is fail. You undock? Seriously tho, if the pilgrim got a cap boost id be happy. Some ships are not meant to fit a MWD. The pilgrim is one of them. Maybe increase its resists slightly. The thing about the pilgrim is its completely different to any of the other recons. If any of the other recons get webbed, they die. Period.
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.03 16:22:00 - [72] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/05/2008 16:23:25 Other recons are speedy and long-range enough to not have to engage in web range. The Pilgrim has to. I had a fight recently where I engaged a baiting Ferox because the guy I was in gang with couldn't wait a bit and was frantically screaming at me wanting me to uncloak and tackle it. I did, we gots jumped, and I was dead because there's no way in hell I can disengage once the **** hits the fan. Thus need for revert of NOS nerf or better Cap and increased resists.
chiefyuk Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.03 16:47:00 - [73] Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 03/05/2008 16:23:25 Other recons are speedy and long-range enough to not have to engage in web range. The Pilgrim has to. I had a fight recently where I engaged a baiting Ferox because the guy I was in gang with couldn't wait a bit and was frantically screaming at me wanting me to uncloak and tackle it. I did, we gots jumped, and I was dead because there's no way in hell I can disengage once the ** hits the fan. Thus need for revert of NOS nerf or better Cap and increased resists. Well obviously your gangmate sucks a chode! Fine, if i HAD** to give it a boost i would give it slightly better resists and either a cap amount of cap recharge rate boost. Either way, the pilgrim is still awesome!
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.03 17:18:00 - [74] Yes, yes, he does. He managed to lose his curse to a rapier and gang like 2 days ago. <3
Lalita Prestoc	Posted - 2008.05.03 18:00:00 - [75] I sense descent in the ranks . All ships that go into web range risk getting ganked due to traps, thats more of a game issue with the on/off switch of webs and how strong they are than a ship problem. Plus CCP's series of HP increases to lengthen fights making it easier to bait and get the them before the bait dies. More cap/cap recharge to tank/neut with is cool and/or more res/hp to tank with. Best idea by far I think is the hidden ship bonus that makes NOS suck like the old days by making it appear like the target is at 100% cap so always at more than the Pilgrim.
Kaben	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:24:00 - [76] Originally by: chiefyuk You undock? Seriously tho, if the pilgrim got a cap boost id be happy. Some ships are not meant to fit a MWD. The pilgrim is one of them. Maybe increase its resists slightly. The thing about the pilgrim is its completely different to any of the other recons. If any of the other recons get webbed, they die. Period. This. The pilgrim is fine, and no mwd is fail only really works in gangs, strangly enough this ship like the curse aren't really gang friendly. Like chief said, learn how to fit it. It's not a curse, stop trying to fit it like one, it's a different kind of monster. Furthermore the pilgrim can kill bs's, pick your target, not generally a good idea to uncloak next to a domi in this. Why is it not a good idea? Takes to long (as far as the domi goes, doesn't take a genius to figure that one out), pilgrim is meant to be stealthy, not try to kill said bs at belt for 10mins. A ? though, how many other SOLO recons can claim they can kill a bs (besides a curse)? Abso is a good ship. I can fly both the astarte and abso and I'd choose the abso most of the time unless it was a very small gang...like 2-3 ships. Sentinel is a good ship as well, not seeing the problem here unless you're trying to kill cs. Can kill a hac as long as it doesn't get transversal on you. Sure, it's not the best, but you should try flying gallente eaf's or recons, then tell me about crap. Before I'd bring a gallente recon/eaf I'd pull out the mighty thorax cause I'd probably live longer and cause more havoc with it.
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:22:00 - [77] Edited by: Kingwood on 06/05/2008 11:23:24 I know the Pilgrim isn't gang friendly, I think everyone knows that. Saying that no MWD is needed makes me laugh. With current game mechanics (bubbles, Hictors) you need one to survive a gatecamp. Stop saying the Pilgrim is fine when you don't fly it yourself. Edit: Also, who's trying to fit the Pilgrim like a Curse? What? Did you even read this thread?
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.05.06 14:25:00 - [78] Absolution is... working AFAIK. It holds much tank, but currently, we value more gank. It is slow, but currently, we value more speed. In no way it should have the ability to gank as much as the astarte does at 2km from outside web range (or 20km on scorch). The absolution finally hold nithing extreme, it's so balanced to itself (gank vs tank vs speed) that people don't see that in fact it is versatile. No tanking will save you from being ganked, that's where the absolution is not better than any other ship against a large force. But, in small gangs, it can both survive heavy DPS and deal good damage. Oh, I forgot, people favor nanogangs and blobs against any kind of small gang pvp. Other issues in the game hides how good this ship is. Now, for the amarr recons, I own them, I tried to fit them, but I didn't do anything with them yet, I can just say that nos/neuts take loads of pwg on those ships which makes them harder to fit than any other recon. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
mama guru Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:18:00 - [79] Originally by: Gordon Red Sentinel is fine, I have also no problem with MWD+TD... lowskiller? they just suck at micromanaging cap. Fit for limited speed, high cap recharge and agility, thats for gangwork. 1 nos 2 neuts EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Kaben	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 06/05/2008 11:30:41 Edited by: Kingwood on 06/05/2008 11:23:24 I know that ammar recons aren't gang friendly, I think everyone knows that. Saying that no MWD is needed makes me laugh. With current game mechanics (bubbles, Hictors) you need one to survive a gatecamp. Stop saying the Pilgrim is fine when you don't fly it yourself. Edit: Also, who's trying to fit the Pilgrim like a Curse? What? Did you even read this thread? Edit2: And to point something out. Notice how I don't get myself involved in the Absolution/Sentinel discussion? Yeah, that's because I don't fly the ships. Fixed your statement on gang friendly and if you can't figure out why the curse isn't very gang friendly then I question the fact of if you can fly ammarr recons. Obviously you are trying to fit it like a curse, otherwise you wouldn't be saying it needs a mwd. Survive a gatecamp, you do know that this ship can cloak nicely right? If there are to many people at the gate then they were prepared with the blob to counter your ship. If they didn't have many and you got caught, well, don't blame that on the ship. Yes I do fly it, it's a nice ship and IMO probably the only force recon that acts they way it should. So you can't fly abso or sent, there are a few amarr ships I can't fly, there logistics, fleet command, battleships and t2 battleships and all there capitols. Notice how I didn't say recons, hacs and field command, that is because I CAN fly them so I comment on them and I know how to fit and use the pilgrim and yes, it's a great ship when used properly instead of taking on odds that are sure to lead to a suicidal death. Maybe you should do some reading instead of posting. Read about the "bleeder punisher", might give you a hint as to how this ship will work. Use it like a stealth bomber (not the way it is fitted of course) in knowing what/when/where/why/how to engage instead of killing its capacitor cap/recharge with a mwd. This ship can kill a battleship and mostly everyone (save for the ones who know how to fit it) wants it to do more, if that isn't imbalance I don't know what is. If it gets boosted hopefully it will just be cap capacity and not what people want in changing nos/neut drain for nos/neut range. That will destroy this ship. It will become a crappy version of the curse, which currently it is not, it has a role unlike the other recons of its class that generally lead to outclassing there combat recon variations. If you want to figure out how the pilgrim works (as you obviously don't know how), try reading the forums in which people aren't complaining about it as they might know how to fit it and use it, but then again doing that won't lead to it getting boosted will it?
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:28:00 - [81] Originally by: Kaben Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 06/05/2008 11:30:41 Edited by: Kingwood on 06/05/2008 11:23:24 I know that ammar recons aren't gang friendly, I think everyone knows that. Saying that no MWD is needed makes me laugh. With current game mechanics (bubbles, Hictors) you need one to survive a gatecamp. Stop saying the Pilgrim is fine when you don't fly it yourself. Edit: Also, who's trying to fit the Pilgrim like a Curse? What? Did you even read this thread? Edit2: And to point something out. Notice how I don't get myself involved in the Absolution/Sentinel discussion? Yeah, that's because I don't fly the ships. Fixed your statement on gang friendly and if you can't figure out why the curse isn't very gang friendly then I question the fact of if you can fly ammarr recons. Obviously you are trying to fit it like a curse, otherwise you wouldn't be saying it needs a mwd. Survive a gatecamp, you do know that this ship can cloak nicely right? If there are to many people at the gate then they were prepared with the blob to counter your ship. If they didn't have many and you got caught, well, don't blame that on the ship. Yes I do fly it, it's a nice ship and IMO probably the only force recon that acts they way it should. So you can't fly abso or sent, there are a few amarr ships I can't fly, there logistics, fleet command, battleships and t2 battleships and all there capitols. Notice how I didn't say recons, hacs and field command, that is because I CAN fly them so I comment on them and I know how to fit and use the pilgrim and yes, it's a great ship when used properly instead of taking on odds that are sure to lead to a suicidal death. Maybe you should do some reading instead of posting. Read about the "bleeder punisher", might give you a hint as to how this ship will work. Use it like a stealth bomber (not the way it is fitted of course) in knowing what/when/where/why/how to engage instead of killing its capacitor cap/recharge with a mwd. This ship can kill a battleship and mostly everyone (save for the ones who know how to fit it) wants it to do more, if that isn't imbalance I don't know what is. If it gets boosted hopefully it will just be cap capacity and not what people want in changing nos/neut drain for nos/neut range. That will destroy this ship. It will become a crappy version of the curse, which currently it is not, it has a role unlike the other recons of its class that generally lead to outclassing there combat recon variations. If you want to figure out how the pilgrim works (as you obviously don't know how), try reading the forums in which people aren't complaining about it as they might know how to fit it and use it, but then again doing that won't lead to it getting boosted will it? Awesome, you suggested the utter garbage "bleeder setup" for the Punisher. Yeah, I don't think I have to take you that seriously anymore. But, let me comment. The Pilgrim is a pure solo ship, and I would fly it with a max of 2-3 people in a gang if I had to. Curse is a good solo ship too, but I would fly it in a slightly bigger gang. Maybe care to read my previous statements in this and the "Amarr recons are broken" thread? I'm not trying to fit it like a Curse, I'm saying I need a MWD to survive a competent 0.0 gatecamp. No speed mod? Awesome, 1 inty and a BS is enough. I've argued against a range bonus instead of amount bonus, and am for a Cap bonus and slightly increased resists. Did you even read my posts? How's your reading comprehension? Not very good, ain't it. Please quote me saying I'm in favor of a range bonus instead of amount bonus. Please quote me saying I am not in favor of a cap boost. I'm tired and can't be arsed to argue with you, I think you're an idiot. Try reading posts before trying to flame.
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:39:00 - [82] Edited by: Kingwood on 07/05/2008 23:40:32 To make it all clear, because I'm off to bed and your failing reading comprehension might not enable you to understand my previous post: Amarr recons solo ships. Because Cap warfare. Pilgrim special solo ship. I want Pilgrim stay that way. Range bonus bad, Capacitor boost good. Increased resists very welcome. No MWD in 0.0 is dead you. Even if cloak, because of fast-ship-come-near-you decloak. "Bleeder Punisher" lol. Plate + 2 CPRs > 3 CPRs. Edit: Simplified some sentences for Kaben
Kaben	Posted - 2008.05.08 01:20:00 - [83] Originally by: Kingwood Awesome, you suggested the utter garbage "bleeder setup" for the Punisher. Yeah, I don't think I have to take you that seriously anymore. But, let me comment. The Pilgrim is a pure solo ship, and I would fly it with a max of 2-3 people in a gang if I had to. Curse is a good solo ship too, but I would fly it in a slightly bigger gang. Maybe care to read my previous statements in this and the "Amarr recons are broken" thread? I'm not trying to fit it like a Curse, I'm saying I need a MWD to survive a competent 0.0 gatecamp. No speed mod? Awesome, 1 inty and a BS is enough. I've argued against a range bonus instead of amount bonus, and am for a Cap bonus and slightly increased resists. Did you even read my posts? How's your reading comprehension? Not very good, ain't it. Please quote me saying I'm in favor of a range bonus instead of amount bonus. Please quote me saying I am not in favor of a cap boost. I'm tired and can't be arsed to argue with you. Try reading posts before trying to flame. You won't take me seriuosly due to me saying read the bleeder punisher. On the contrary, the bleeding punisher makes perfect sence in this situation. Using low sig it's capable of tanking damage off quite a many ships that people would consider dangerous even if it's webbed, simular to the way I use the pilgrim. Or to make it easier, fitting a big plate, med rep and a afterburner. It's inherent cap warfare will cause havoc in just about any ship, save for certain nano hacs (and from listening to the live dev blog that should be coming to an end soon). If you are wondering I have no problem with the nano vaga or the nano deimos. Just my personall feelings on them. Amarr recons are not broken. They have a role an serve it just fine. They do great in small gangs or solo. I'm not contradicting what I said before, they work in small gangs, very small, I have an idea that you know this considering how many gang size you posted, but the pilgrim does not need a mwd to survive. You say you are not trying to fit it like a curse, but you want to fit and keep cap maintain while doing it on a pilgrim, the only thing seperating the curse and pilgrim is warfare length and cap sustainablility, you already said you don't want that changed, but what is the difference between them after putting a mwd on the pilgrim if it can sustain itself. In the end the curse will be a better bet even though the pilgrim has its fancy cloak with mwd. I've never ever had a problem with one inty, 3 or more becomes a problem. Then again the more intys added to the mix, the better they were prepared for recons. Reading your next post clarifies something though. a fast ship yes, but the odds of 1 inty pilot getting that close to you even if he is competent is very minute. Can be done, though I think thats more of a good bit of luck then pilot compentence. Add more inty pilots and there odds go greatly in there favor. Keep in mind I never posted against you except for on one idea, that the pilgrim does not need a mwd to work, it works just fine with a afterburner and it's cap stable, unless you go agaisnt a ship that fits more then one nos/neut (hence the reason not a good idea to uncloak next to a domi). On a side note there is nothing wrong with the bleeder punisher, it works and works just fine. Posted for reasons of A. a ship that is webbed does not always die B. even with the punishers crappy resist it can tank just fine C. The most important, picking and choosing your targets My pilgrim fit. hi's 2nos 1 neut (best named med) 1 cov cloak Mid's 1 10mn ab, 2 td's, 1 web, 1 disrupter (or scram considering range and better cap stability) Low's 1 med rep, 1 1600mm rtp, 2 eanm, 1 rcu rigs, 2 ccc's been a while since I've flown it so that might not be completely correct and yes you need recon 5 to use it or maybe a cpu implant, I have recon 5 so I don't really care.
Nemtar Nataal Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.05.08 07:49:00 - [84] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Why didnt these ships get love? Why didnt pilgrim get fixed? Right now pilgrim is the worst recon for solo and for gangs. .... Actually the falcon is the worst ship for solo pvp, but if we let that slide you are properly right...i thought that my amarr alt would fly them some day but i think im going for the Curse insted, in my oppinion its by far the best recon ship out there. On the sbject of caldari having the best EW, well if they didnt have that they really wouldnt have anything going for them. I do see you point on capping out on the mods, if my sac did that i would park it in a dark cornor of my hanger and properly train for minmatar...
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.05.08 14:11:00 - [85] Originally by: joshmorris can tear battleships a new whole in a matter of seconds. No, it cannot. Sorry, but that's utter bull****. The Abso is a good ship, but it could use a little help. I agree that a 4th mid would make it too good. It needs to have a weakness, and being hard to solo in is it. What it could use is a 7th turret (and enough grid/cpu to fit it), or, at the very least, enough grid/cpu so it could actually fit a gang mod in its free high slot. Do take note that I am all for boosting the other field commands, as they all could use a little help (especially the Nighthawk).
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.09 08:18:00 - [86] Originally by: Kaben stuff Seems we have different opinions on the need of MWD then. I can only state again, MWD is necessary if you want to roam in 0.0. It also is necessary if you want to roam in low sec, although with a cloak you can get by without one if you align, cloak, and warp. I guess that reduces me to roaming in low sec with the Pilgrim, since fitting a MWD gimps my setup and cap way too much (I'm short on PG, not CPU). You can look at my setup from a killmail I posted a few posts above. I could get by with the PG shortage by rigging it with an Ancillary Current Router (which I will do), but the capacitor penalty hurts the Pilgrim way too much. Also, with the NOS nerf I lost a mid-slot and my cargo hold due to having to fit a cap booster plus charges. Good luck restocking in non-NPC 0.0 space.
Sakhr Otaktay Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 14:41:00 - [87] The Pilgrim is such an underestimated ship.. expecially in solo lowsec pvp.. it doesn't deal a whole lot of damage ( about 200-250dps) but hey. you can nano it up to about 2500m/s or more and you can warp cloaked .. a skilled pilgrim pilot can do alot of chaos, You can warp up to some target Uncloak mwd around them while you are both neutralizing their cap and guns, ( or outrun their missiles if thats the case) while you're drones are pounding him. Every ship is good in its own way, it does 4-5x the damage of the other recons (the cloaking ones) its far of from being the worst recon ------ Zombies! Aliens! Vampires! Dinosaurs!
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.11 00:12:00 - [88] Hey guys, guys, I'm going to fly this nano ship here INTO WEB RANGE. Also, my named neuts reach out to 12km, NOTHING CAN GO WRONG, right? Guys? Guys?
San Rintu Asshats and Alcoholics Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.11 00:32:00 - [89] Just because the Pilgrim doesn't get the ridiculous neut range bonus of it's sick and twisted brother, certainly doesn't mean it's nerfed. The Falcon gets a much lower base locking range than a Rook, it takes decent skills to get it out as far without sacrificing vital mid slots or rigs. TD's are horribly under-used in this game. If your said Pilgrim was to try some optimal range ones on any blaster setup ship they will be crying regardless of whether they can web you. Absolution is listed a a Command Ship. Unless you command yourself I think you may get the idea the initial idea was for it to be a gang ship rather than some solo pwn mobile. While we are at it CCP, can the Drake and Raven have another 5 mid slots each? you know would be nice to be a solo pwn mobile too. Absolution as far as I am concerned is a very nicely balanced ship. It doesn't require fitting mods like a NH and has a very nice gank/tank balance. Sentinels I have seen used very effectively. Not only buy NOTR in the Eve-O 5th Tourny but by many small skirmish PvPers. They are far less likely to be primaried than a Curse and in numbers can have just as dramatic effect. I think as an occasional inty pilot, I would rather see a Hyena than a Sentinel because they are just horrid little things! For those having trouble cap stabling them, train cap skills, they are apparently very useful. Less whining needs to be done about Amarr as it seems CCP listen every time you do. Apoc is now a very nice ship and you have arguably two of the best Black Ops and Marauders out of the new set(doesn't really say much about the black ops though). Amarr now have leading ships in every class and so many are cross training to take advantage. You simply cannot have it all. Current Brilliant Amarr Ships: Curse, Malediction, Harbinger, Geddon, Abaddon, Apoc, Zealot, Sacrilege, Paladin, Damnation. Those are simply a few names and you could argue so many more.
Sakhr Otaktay Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.11 10:17:00 - [90] Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 11/05/2008 00:17:43 Hey guys, guys, I'm going to fly this nano ship here INTO WEB RANGE. Also, my named neuts reach out to 12km, NOTHING CAN GO WRONG, right? Guys? Guys? ALSO, FORGET RAPIERS, ARAZUS AND FALCONS. They only do 40-50 dps!11!1! Pilgrim rocks. Talking out of your arse a bit, mate, aren't we? its called choosing your targets, your speed and tracking disruptors are mainly your tank. so going after a solo turret boat in a belt in a system that isn't very crowded is a pretty good idea seeing that he will not be able to fire his guns at you.. btw, im talking about solo lowsec pvp. its not like 0,0 blobs, you acctually have to be a little smart. targets dont get chosen for you and the only thing you need to do is to press your F1-8 key's, btw. being sarcastic on the forums is a bit cheesy ------ Zombies! Aliens! Vampires! Dinosaurs!
Akane Miyamoto The Illuminati. Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.11 10:57:00 - [91] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Absolution needs a 4th mid or it cant really kill anything unless he "has a friend". Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.. Oh, sorry.. I though it was a joke. In case of being serious; hahahahahahahahahahahahaha --------------- The Miyamotos, Chapter #1.5
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.11 13:03:00 - [92] Originally by: Sakhr Otaktay its called choosing your targets, your speed and tracking disruptors are mainly your tank. so going after a solo turret boat in a belt in a system that isn't very crowded is a pretty good idea seeing that he will not be able to fire his guns at you.. btw, im talking about solo lowsec pvp. its not like 0,0 blobs, you acctually have to be a little smart. targets dont get chosen for you and the only thing you need to do is to press your F1-8 key's, btw. being sarcastic on the forums is a bit cheesy Thank you so much. I never knew this. I have never understood what the Pilgrim is for, you pointing this out made me a much, much better Pilgrim pilot. I am very, very sorry for being a sarcastic twit, and you're obviously the kind of guy who always flies solo AND WOULD NEVER BLOB. Right? Right? Anyways, thanks to you, I can kill new pilots in Cruisers now! I'm off to nano my ship up and rack up a lot of kills. Cya in-game, good friend. Let us kill with Pilgrims together?
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.11 14:05:00 - [93] Ok, a more serious post: If I want to use a nano Amarr Recon I'll use a Curse, because that one actually has the range to be an awesome nano ship. Pilgrim is a close-range ship, and thus has to tank. Ask any Vagabond player if they like to stray into web range, then you have your answer. Anyways, I've invested far too much time into arguing with people like you, thus barring another idiotic reply from you (I think you're the opposite from a genius, if I may use euphemisms to express myself), I'm out of this thread and will wait to see what CCP decide. By the time the next patch comes, I'll hopefully be sitting in my Zealot. Now that is one awesome nano ship.
Kaben	Posted - 2008.05.11 14:42:00 - [94] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus No, it cannot. Sorry, but that's utter bull****. The Abso is a good ship, but it could use a little help. I agree that a 4th mid would make it too good. It needs to have a weakness, and being hard to solo in is it. What it could use is a 7th turret (and enough grid/cpu to fit it), or, at the very least, enough grid/cpu so it could actually fit a gang mod in its free high slot. Do take note that I am all for boosting the other field commands, as they all could use a little help (especially the Nighthawk). I agree, can't kill a bs that quickly. 1. 4th midslot overpowered 2. 7th turret? You're joking right? What would be the point in this besides killing yet another gallente ship. 3. People use gang links on field commands?!?! I didn't know this. Yeah, that last bit was sarcasm. Probably the only field command in need of assistance is the nighthawk.
Kaben	Posted - 2008.05.11 15:20:00 - [95] Originally by: Kingwood Ok, a more serious post: If I want to use a nano Amarr Recon I'll use a Curse, because that one actually has the range to be an awesome nano ship. Pilgrim is a close-range ship, and thus has to tank. Ask any Vagabond player if they like to stray into web range, then you have your answer. Anyways, I've invested far too much time into arguing with people like you, thus barring another idiotic reply from you (I think you're the opposite from a genius, if I may use euphemisms to express myself), I'm out of this thread and will wait to see what CCP decide. By the time the next patch comes, I'll hopefully be sitting in my Zealot. Now that is one awesome nano ship. I'm not getting what you're saying. What can a pilgrim not do in low sec? What can a pilgrim not accomplish in 0.0? Obviously your not talking about tanking gate/station guns cause that would just be lol in anything smaller then a bc. So my guess is your using it for pirating, or for killing pirates or finally for war deccing corps/alliances located in these areas. Two of those it can accomplish quite well and imo better then the curse. I don't see the problem you are having or how you want this ship to work. war deccing is more suited for the curse but the pilgrim can do the other two options better. When I look at the recons and if I were to rate them for soloability and small gang, the curse and the pilgrim would be #1. I rate them both as number one, why? The curse can do things the pilgrim can't. The pilgrim can do things the curse can't. Personally I'm not seeing anyone post anything viable in this thread that makes them worth boosting, besides the fact of making them more powerful then they need to be. BTW, if you keep up on your dev blog/live dev blog I probably wouldn't be getting too comfortable in that nano zealot for too long if I were you.
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.11 15:34:00 - [96] Edited by: Kingwood on 11/05/2008 15:35:05 I'm responding to that guy stating how Pilgrim does 4-5 times the damage of other Force Recons, and him saying that nanoing it makes it pretty much unbeatable. Also, that Pilgrim has to select his targets very carefully. Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. If you're referring to the upcoming nano nerf, yeah, I'm really really excited seeing how that is gonna affect both the Zealot and Curse. If I can't nano the Zealot I might as well use a Harbinger. But I like Cruisers, so HACs is the way to go for me. Edit: Not to be pedantic, but your post has nothing to do at all with my previous posts?
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:32:00 - [97] i can tell that someone here doesnt fly these ships much Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.05.13 23:40:00 - [98] Originally by: Kaben 2. 7th turret? You're joking right? What would be the point in this besides killing yet another gallente ship. So it outdamage the Sleipnir, like it should (yes yes, fighting in falloff and all that jazz, but it can still put out more DPS with Hail, and imo minnies shouldn't outdamage Amarr at close range either, just as Amarr shouldn't outdamage Gallente at close range). Originally by: Kaben 3. People use gang links on field commands?!?! I didn't know this. I use one on my Sleips. It fits fine as long as you fit 220s instead of 425s. Fitting a gangmod on an Abso is... not as easy (FMP lose too much damage to HP). Originally by: Kaben Probably the only field command in need of assistance is the nighthawk. NH DOES need help, I agree. 7th launcher and switch one of the lows for a mid?
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.13 23:51:00 - [99] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus NH DOES need help, I agree. 7th launcher and switch one of the lows for a mid? Just give it enough grid to fit HAMs + mwd/injector/large booster. Damagewise HAMs are fine but if you fit them you cant mount any tank or any mobility modules.
Kaben	Posted - 2008.05.14 00:35:00 - [100] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Kaben 2. 7th turret? You're joking right? What would be the point in this besides killing yet another gallente ship. So it outdamage the Sleipnir, like it should (yes yes, fighting in falloff and all that jazz, but it can still put out more DPS with Hail, and imo minnies shouldn't outdamage Amarr at close range either, just as Amarr shouldn't outdamage Gallente at close range). Originally by: Kaben 3. People use gang links on field commands?!?! I didn't know this. I use one on my Sleips. It fits fine as long as you fit 220s instead of 425s. Fitting a gangmod on an Abso is... not as easy (FMP lose too much damage to HP). Originally by: Kaben Probably the only field command in need of assistance is the nighthawk. NH DOES need help, I agree. 7th launcher and switch one of the lows for a mid? Abso can already outdamage a sleiph, you said it. Sleiph works in falloff, which means half damage (roughly). You did read my post right, I didn't say anything about minnie ships, I said gallente ships. You can't outdamage the astarte, but getting close to it's damage is just the same as outdamageing it due to range and tank. I know the sleip uses a gang mod. Btw you don't loose alot of dps by downgrading to FMP, a little but not as drastic as you make it out to be. One of my friends in game uses DHP as to MP on his geddon because he says he can get a much better fit, much better tracking and he likes the 2s rof on it.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:19:00 - [101] Originally by: Kaben Abso can already outdamage a sleiph, you said it. Sleiph works in falloff, which means half damage (roughly). You did read my post right, I didn't say anything about minnie ships, I said gallente ships. You can't outdamage the astarte, but getting close to it's damage is just the same as outdamageing it due to range and tank. Going by that logic, you'd need to take out a turret or two on the Geddon because it can outrange the Mega with MP II and Scorch. The Astarte will still have the advantage of having a 4th mid, thus being better at soloing/small gangs. Originally by: Kaben I know the sleip uses a gang mod. Btw you don't loose alot of dps by downgrading to FMP, a little but not as drastic as you make it out to be. One of my friends in game uses DHP as to MP on his geddon because he says he can get a much better fit, much better tracking and he likes the 2s rof on it. Going from HP II to FMP II loses you about 14% DPS, which is pretty damned drastic in Eve terms. By comparison, going from 425s to 220s loses you less than 5% DPS.
Sakhr Otaktay Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.14 23:25:00 - [102] Originally by: Kingwood Thank you so much. I never knew this. I have never understood what the Pilgrim is for, you pointing this out made me a much, much better Pilgrim pilot. I am very, very sorry for being a sarcastic twit, and you're obviously the kind of guy who always flies solo AND WOULD NEVER BLOB. Right? Right? Anyways, thanks to you, I can kill new pilots in Cruisers now! I'm off to nano my ship up and rack up a lot of kills. Cya in-game, good friend. Let us kill with Pilgrims together? you are misunderstanding .. i never said it was a OMGWTFPWN solo machine.. just that it was an underestimated ship, everyone is allways whining about how much amarr recons suck and everything is so lame, learn to live with it. forum trolling really doesn't help. just play the damn game ------ Zombies! Aliens! Vampires! Dinosaurs!
Wyliee Taurus Inc Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.15 11:29:00 - [103] Edited by: Wyliee on 15/05/2008 11:30:49 just read this if you read nothing else i can tel you in one line how to fix the amarr recons give the amarr recons ships much bigger caps then they can do what they are suposed to do with out fitting a whole bunch of cap mods to do it. they wont be over powered - they can run neuts for much longer and still have the mid slots free to fit the TD's the get bonuses for. easy fix./
CptEav1s Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:14:00 - [104] So if I get this topic right for Xmas you want: A Pilgrim with Curse range to make it the ultimate ambusher and carebear killer? An Absolution that can tank, dps and do it all while afk? And a Sentinel that can NOS / Neut and then EW while going *zoom around its target? I think the entire game needs to get a little re-looking because PvP these days req a MWD and web and scram, with the Abso its tight but still managable. Really every ship has an upside and a downside, of course there are exceptions which seem to have nothing but up or nothing but down, but these ships certainly aren't examples of those. Sarge "Hey, Grif chupathingy how bout it? I like it got a ring to it" I BRAKE FOR PUMAS!
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.16 05:18:00 - [105] Originally by: CptEav1s So if I get this topic right for Xmas you want: A Pilgrim with Curse range to make it the ultimate ambusher and carebear killer? An Absolution that can tank, dps and do it all while afk? And a Sentinel that can NOS / Neut and then EW while going zoom around its target? I think the entire game needs to get a little re-looking because PvP these days req a MWD and web and scram,* with the Abso its tight but still managable. Really every ship has an upside and a downside, of course there are exceptions which seem to have nothing but up or nothing but down, but these ships certainly aren't examples of those. do you play the game or just drop by to dispense with your wisdom? Originally by: CptEav1s A Pilgrim with Curse range to make it the ultimate ambusher and carebear killer? Look at how stupid you are. It's a recon and it barely has 200 dps before resistance. I could care less about the sentinel but I find it funny you think a ship that has no drone damage bonus nor damage utility is in someway "fine". ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
CptEav1s Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.17 00:57:00 - [106] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: CptEav1s So if I get this topic right for Xmas you want: A Pilgrim with Curse range to make it the ultimate ambusher and carebear killer? An Absolution that can tank, dps and do it all while afk? And a Sentinel that can NOS / Neut and then EW while going zoom around its target? I think the entire game needs to get a little re-looking because PvP these days req a MWD and web and scram,* with the Abso its tight but still managable. Really every ship has an upside and a downside, of course there are exceptions which seem to have nothing but up or nothing but down, but these ships certainly aren't examples of those. do you play the game or just drop by to dispense with your wisdom? Originally by: CptEav1s A Pilgrim with Curse range to make it the ultimate ambusher and carebear killer? Look at how stupid you are. It's a recon and it barely has 200 dps before resistance. I could care less about the sentinel but I find it funny you think a ship that has no drone damage bonus nor damage utility is in someway "fine". Ok so if you don't care about Sentinel then why are you trying to defend it? please make up your mind either you care about it or you don't. And the Pilgrim's DPS is made up for by its NOS / Neut ability, resists aren't gonna do you much good if you can't rep cause all your cap boosters just feed your attacker.... that is unless your a passive tanking Drake, and most Curse / Pilgrim pilots stay away from those anyway. Sarge "Hey, Grif chupathingy how bout it? I like it got a ring to it" I BRAKE FOR PUMAS!
Kingwood Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.17 10:06:00 - [107] You can't depend on NOS. I run 2x E50 NOS on my Pilgrim, and I can't tell whether I'm sucking any meaningful cap at all from my target, thus I'm actually heavily relying on my Cap booster. Please stop defending NOS if you have no clue? Neut ability is fine, though.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:32:00 - [108] Originally by: CptEav1s Ok so if you don't care about Sentinel then why are you trying to defend it? please make up your mind either you care about it or you don't. And the Pilgrim's DPS is made up for by its NOS / Neut ability, resists aren't gonna do you much good if you can't rep cause all your cap boosters just feed your attacker.... that is unless your a passive tanking Drake, and most Curse / Pilgrim pilots stay away from those anyway. Your embarrassing understanding of mechanics is reason enough to correct you. Your abject stupidity as it relates to any practical form of pvp is baffling. You'd know no sensible person fights in webrange with ~2k hitpoints, poor resists and the worst bonus of all the recons. Even with faction nos overheated, a single ship with 800 charges will laugh you off. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
CptEav1s Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:53:00 - [109] Well this will be my last post for this thread if you wanna call everyone stupid and act like a jerk be my guest. I do know a bit about the Pilgrim and Curse because.... lets see I fly them. I find my setup works fine if you can't get it to work not my problem, but I find the majority of players have no problem with them and thats what I'm trying to say. Again you wanna be a jerk good for you, I don't need it so cheers. - CptEav1s Sarge "Hey, Grif chupathingy how bout it? I like it got a ring to it" I BRAKE FOR PUMAS!
Kaben	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:37:00 - [110] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Going by that logic, you'd need to take out a turret or two on the Geddon because it can outrange the Mega with MP II and Scorch. The Astarte will still have the advantage of having a 4th mid, thus being better at soloing/small gangs. Going from HP II to FMP II loses you about 14% DPS, which is pretty damned drastic in Eve terms. By comparison, going from 425s to 220s loses you less than 5% DPS. I won't get into bs's, don't like to fly them so I'll stay away from that. In a way you've proven my point that I made in my original post. That the astarte is a great ship in solo or small gangs, but I'd rather fly the abso in larger gangs due to it's capability of moving from target to target by just swapping cry's. The astarte sucks at this due to point blank range, thus making the abso better in larger gangs. To the second part. Still you forget to add the 50% damage loss instantly for using autocannons because of fighting in falloff (roughly, sounds pretty drastic to me compared to your 14% loss), stop using eft to figure out damage for minnie guns and then compare to your meager 14% loss.

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