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[Amarr] Weapon Systems Problems

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Jeremy Ironforge White syndicate BattleStar Alliance 22	Posted - 2012.02.23 16:48:00 - [1] - Quote "All the amarr train their stupid lasers" And what else should they do? Train drones? Amarr ships support 3 weapon systems among which only 1 is bonused and widespread. I. Lasers, lasers, lasers... You have them all! Beam, pulse, green, yellow, purple! It is the amarr whom you call when there's a disco show. While beam lasers are generally good. Pulse lasers have significiant problems, especially in medium size category: 1) Powergrid requirements. Focused Medium Pulse Laser II - 132 Heavy Pulse Laser II - 231 I know there is a lore stuff and to a common person "Laser" should consume a lot of energy. But what we have in-game are ships that can't fit proper weapons+mwd+tank. Things get worse since a Cap Booster is a necessity when you can't fire guns without cap. The only one capable fitting all of this is a Harbinger but then again it can't use it's enormous PG to fit an outstanding tank and has to use FMPL's. All in all it has just 5k EHP more than armor Hurricane and less DPS even though it hase 1 more turret. 2) "Useless bonus". The -10% capacitor bonus is present on almost every amarr hull but it doesn't contribute to the damage output of the weapon or the ship's traits. It gets even worse if the ship has no Laser damage bonus. Talk about "Maller" and "Prophecy" which are among the most gimped in the game. Should this bonus really take up the whole bonus slot? Maybe there is a possibility of applying it to all amarr hulls as a tertiary bonus without breaking the game. 3) Low DPS capability/Low tracking. Those two problems severly gimp Pulse laser perfomance in close range sector. Also they are partially caused by the the previous point in the way that the hull has no bonuses to compensate those two factors. I am not going to do a lot of research here just give you a few things to think about: - Imperial Navy Multifreqeuncy has better applied DPS than Conflagration on an unwebbed cruiser/BC size target. - Legion has the smallest DPS per weapon module of all T3 hulls. - Harbinger has much less DPS than Hurricane or even Cyclone. Maybe the problem here is not in the lasers rather than hulls and their bonuses. Legion definitely lacks 7th low slot and Harby has to scale down its weapons. On the other hand there are some redeeming qualities such as cheap and durable lenses, awesome optimal of scorch and quick reload. But they don't change the fact that to a new player there is no any particular reason to train for Amarr! Which is inherently wrong gamedesign-wise. II. Missles <::}==> <::}==> <::}==> Nothing's wrong with the missiles themselves rather than with the ship repertoir. Imagine you're a beginning amarr pilot. You have your time doing Lvl1 missions in an Inquisitor and you really enjoy it. But when the time comes to progress you either have to switch to lasers or quit being amarr. Months later when you've finally skilled up to the Legion you notice that there is a pretty decent HAM subsystem. Hell, there is even a decent HAC of Sacrilege! Now you just have to spend 14 days trainning for T2 HAM's and 7 more days on the support skills. That's not so much... You can shoot lasers in the meantime... T1 frigate is 1-1.5 days trainning, HAC/T3 is 50d+!!! Why there is such a huge gap?! People even can't train missle skills since it would be a waste of time because of that gap. Oh yeah, they can switch to a Drake and then skill up for Sansha but then again training two weapon systems at the same time is not optimal. The most funny thing is that we have this problem along with all the lore "Khanid Innovations"/"Caldary allies" stuff. Remember those useless Maller and Prophecy? Why not give them missle bays and a ROF bonus? Might make them viable in PVE or even in PVP due to selectable damage type/good DPS application. III. Drones. "Both the Empire and Kingdom make use of drones as a significant secondary weapon system." - Why Legion has no drones? Drone Synthesis Projector is a crap, but the ship in general could use a full flight of light drones. Where's your loregic? :facepalm: PS: Your url BBcode isn't working.
Nalha Saldana Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 127	Posted - 2012.02.23 16:51:00 - [2] - Quote Not having more then one weapon system is a good thing for newbies, mixing up a lot of drone skills or missile skills takes time. The drone subsystem is there to mix with neut sub, making a t3 curse. The missile stuff they have is better then nothing, i dont think they need a lot more. Yes, some laser ships are weak but both the zealot and abaddon are amazing pvp ships, amarr isnt crap. Also pulses are awesome for 1 reason: Scorch, probably the best ammo in game.
Butzewutze Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.02.23 16:58:00 - [3] - Quote Jeremy Ironforge wrote: - Harbinger has much less DPS than Hurricane or even Cyclone. Check your "facts". [All Skills @ LVL 5] Harbinger[Heavy pulse, Conflag, 5 Hammerheads]: 564 DPS Cyclone[425MM AC's, 3 HAMS, Full drones]: 532 DPS
Jeremy Ironforge White syndicate BattleStar Alliance 22	Posted - 2012.02.23 17:03:00 - [4] - Quote Butzewutze wrote: Jeremy Ironforge wrote: - Harbinger has much less DPS than Hurricane or even Cyclone. Check your "facts". [All Skills @ LVL 5] Harbinger[Heavy pulse, Conflag, 5 Hammerheads]: 564 DPS Cyclone[425MM AC's, 3 HAMS, Full drones]: 532 DPS MWD? Cap Booster? 1600 Plate? 76k EHP buffer? Good luck firing Conflagration at 15+km :) We ain't measure pricks' sizes in vacuum but general ship's perfomance.
Butzewutze Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.02.23 17:14:00 - [5] - Quote Jeremy Ironforge wrote: Butzewutze wrote: Jeremy Ironforge wrote: - Harbinger has much less DPS than Hurricane or even Cyclone. Check your "facts". [All Skills @ LVL 5] Harbinger[Heavy pulse, Conflag, 5 Hammerheads]: 564 DPS Cyclone[425MM AC's, 3 HAMS, Full drones]: 532 DPS MWD? Cap Booster? 1600 Plate? 76k EHP buffer? Good luck firing Conflagration at 15km+ :) We ain't measure pricks' sizes in vacuum but general ship's perfomance. No, you compared both ships maximum damage output and obviously did not look to close.
Karak Bol Cable Innovations Cloud 7 Nebulosa 20	Posted - 2012.02.23 17:37:00 - [6] - Quote Well, its a matter of warfare philosophy. Amarr ships are for prolonged "open field" engagements. Go on the field, stay fighting as long as possible to grind the enemy down. The cap bonus is the logical choice here, as it lets the laser fire more often before cap becomes a problem. Damage bonus, as most/all Minmatar ships have, are along the line of Guerilla warfare "Strike quick and hard". So the problem is not the boni on Amarr ships being useless, but in the metagame which ATM favours high alpha (quick damage). But as Amarr BS are still a mainstay of BS fleets, it cannot be such abig problem.
Nalha Saldana Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 128	Posted - 2012.02.23 17:50:00 - [7] - Quote Minmatars role in the current state is not because of some "Guerilla warfare" tactics. Its quite simple, when you are up close (but not on top of) pulse lasers can bring out some really great applied dps. At a range its not about dps anymore, you wont have enough to break the opponents tank so what do you do? Alpha them. Who brings the best alpha? Minmatar, and no one else is even close to it. And in small gang warfare minmatar are popular because of speed and how easy they are to fit while also bringing neuts. Make the game more interesting? Nerf minmatar alpha a bit and bring the others up so they are viable for longer range engagements.
Mike712 Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 39	Posted - 2012.02.23 18:21:00 - [8] - Quote Posting in a nerf mimatar(and gallente){and caldari} thread. Regards, Mike712 The BattleClinic Team
Kahz Niverrah We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears 176	Posted - 2012.02.23 18:28:00 - [9] - Quote Powergrid requirements, cap usage and the "non-bonus" of cap usage on hulls are all downsides of lasers. But everyone weapons system should have a downside. The only thing that I would agree should be looked at is the cap usage bonus on hulls. Overall lasers are pretty good imo. Jeremy Ironforge wrote: Legion definitely lacks 7th low slot If you touch my 4 mid slot Legion I will commit forcible sexual offenses against your mother. I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.
Kahz Niverrah We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears 176	Posted - 2012.02.23 18:29:00 - [10] - Quote Karak Bol wrote: Well, its a matter of warfare philosophy. Amarr ships are for prolonged "open field" engagements. Go on the field, stay fighting as long as possible to grind the enemy down. The cap bonus is the logical choice here, as it lets the laser fire more often before cap becomes a problem. Damage bonus, as most/all Minmatar ships have, are along the line of Guerilla warfare "Strike quick and hard". I'm not saying that I agree with the OP that lasers are broken (I don't), but your logic is ********. Lasers, which use cap, get a cap bonus so they can fire longer then projectiles that don't use cap? Wtf? I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.

Korg Tronix Heretic Army Heretic Nation 45	Posted - 2012.02.23 19:29:00 - [11] - Quote Butzewutze wrote: Jeremy Ironforge wrote: Butzewutze wrote: Jeremy Ironforge wrote: - Harbinger has much less DPS than Hurricane or even Cyclone. Check your "facts". [All Skills @ LVL 5] Harbinger[Heavy pulse, Conflag, 5 Hammerheads]: 564 DPS Cyclone[425MM AC's, 3 HAMS, Full drones]: 532 DPS MWD? Cap Booster? 1600 Plate? 76k EHP buffer? Good luck firing Conflagration at 15km+ :) We ain't measure pricks' sizes in vacuum but general ship's perfomance. No, you compared both ships maximum damage output and obviously did not look to close. Tbf if we are being really picky about max dps a 3 heat sink HPL Binger does 930dps with HH IIs, conflag and heat. Why you would load that ammo is something else especially with the 26km scorch range you get. If we really are talking DPS numbers if your Harbinger is being outdps'd by a Cyclone you need better skills Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams] http://themabinogion.blogspot.com/
Salo Aldeland Luma Operations 7	Posted - 2012.02.23 21:01:00 - [12] - Quote Cap use bonus would make good sense if paired with a rate of fire bonus. It's also surprisingly useful in a mission fit Apocalypse, since less cap mods means more DPS and range while keeping a stable active tank, compared to a similarly fit Abaddon. Other than that, it just feels like a 5% per level shortfall in something more useful. Pulses feel like they're a bit to difficult to fit, especially compared to similarly performing auto cannons. Scorch lenses shouldn't be the only reason to put lasers on a hull like the Punisher, Maller, or Prophecy.
axxeessee Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.02.23 21:55:00 - [13] - Quote Hey let me just whine about the weapon type that has the most imbalanced ammo in the game at its disposal ! Scorch is broken as shiet, lasers are fine, move along
Karak Bol Cable Innovations Cloud 7 Nebulosa 20	Posted - 2012.02.23 22:29:00 - [14] - Quote Kahz Niverrah wrote: I'm not saying that I agree with the OP that lasers are broken (I don't), but your logic is ********. Lasers, which use cap, get a cap bonus so they can fire longer then projectiles that don't use cap? WTF? Ever ran out of ammunition in a Laser armed ship?
Kahz Niverrah We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears 177	Posted - 2012.02.23 22:31:00 - [15] - Quote Karak Bol wrote: Ever ran out of ammunition in a Laser armed ship? No, because I'm not ********, but if you're implying that crystals don't burn out you are wrong. I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.
Doctor Mabuse Republic University Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.02.23 22:38:00 - [16] - Quote Looks like we've come full circle. 2006 would like it's whine back.
Zarnak Wulf CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 259	Posted - 2012.02.23 22:50:00 - [17] - Quote Doctor Mabuse wrote: Looks like we've come full circle. 2006 would like it's whine back. Holy ****.
Salo Aldeland Luma Operations 7	Posted - 2012.02.23 22:51:00 - [18] - Quote I'd just be happy with a good reason to fit Quad Light Beam Lasers, to be honest. Coolest looking turret in the game by far, but such piddling range! Is there anywhere that they make more sense than Focused Medium Pulses? I'd say ditch Focused Medium Beams altogether, and put Quad Lights in their place.
Buzzmong Aliastra Gallente Federation 139	Posted - 2012.02.24 00:37:00 - [19] - Quote Kahz Niverrah wrote: Karak Bol wrote: Ever ran out of ammunition in a Laser armed ship? No, because I'm not ********, but if you're implying that crystals don't burn out you are wrong. Only T2 and Faction. And you know that. Fwiw, the penalties of laser being high PG use and high cap are offset by the ships and bonuses and the fact that outside of the fixed damage type, lasers are rather good. I quite like the % cap reduction per level, as it makes fitting lasers a totally plausible choice on Amarr ships and a pain in the bumcheeks on other race's ships. Actually having to make a proper choice rather than it just being an near arbitrary decision is rather nice. Most mmo's would either just say "No" or the weapons systems would be so similar it's mearly down to preference of visual effects.
Jack Miton Lapse Of Sanity Exhale. 125	Posted - 2012.02.24 01:47:00 - [20] - Quote anyone claiming amarr ships are underpowered clearly doesnt PVP. they have by FAR the best battleships, the best command ships, the best carrier, top of the line dread, great recons, excellent HACs and the only semi decent black ops. for the cheaper tastes, punisher, arbitrator, harbinger, oracle and all excellent ships. as for lasers, the only down side to them is that you can only do em/therm damage. this is a perfectly fine trade off for being awesome tho.

OfBalance Deep Core Mining Inc. 44	Posted - 2012.02.24 02:27:00 - [21] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: Doctor Mabuse wrote: Looks like we've come full circle. 2006 would like it's whine back. Holy ****. I want to believe.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution 43	Posted - 2012.02.24 04:27:00 - [22] - Quote Karak Bol wrote: Kahz Niverrah wrote: I'm not saying that I agree with the OP that lasers are broken (I don't), but your logic is ******. Lasers, which use cap, get a cap bonus so they can fire longer then projectiles that don't use cap? WTF? Ever ran out of ammunition in a Laser armed ship? On several occasions, and let me tell you, every one was a disaster. Jack Miton wrote: anyone claiming amarr ships are underpowered clearly doesnt PVP. they have by FAR the best battleships, the best command ships, the best carrier, top of the line dread, great recons, excellent HACs and the only semi decent black ops. Best command ships? Panther > sin = widow = redeemer Jack Miton wrote: for the cheaper tastes, punisher, arbitrator, harbinger, oracle are all excellent ships. Punisher is crap. You heard it here first, kids! It's EHP advantage isn't worth much when you take it's other stats into account. I dare say any of the other highest tier tech 1 frigates can do any job better than it. Jack Miton wrote: as for lasers, the only down side to them is that you can only do em/therm damage. this is a perfectly fine trade off for being awesome tho. Well, there is the whole uses-cap-are-hard-to-fit-and-don't-track-for-**-when-target-is-close thing.
Jeremy Ironforge White syndicate BattleStar Alliance 22	Posted - 2012.02.24 04:42:00 - [23] - Quote Quote: Posting in a nerf mimatar(and gallente){and caldari} thread. :faceplam: I didn't want it... It's all their fault! Indeed this is not nerf mimatar thread. I just used their BC as examples. __________________ Quote: I'm not saying that I agree with the OP that lasers are broken (I don't). I do not whine either just point out things. The weapon system in overall has no qualities to be trained for unless you plan doing some siege stuff to cut on your ammo costs. And that is not good gameplay wise. Also I do not imply that the problem is solely with the lasers: Quote: Maybe the problem here is not in the lasers rather than hulls and their bonuses. Legion definitely lacks 7th low slot and Harby has to scale down its weapons. __________________ Korg Tronix wrote: Tbf if we are being really picky about max dps a 3 heat sink HPL Binger does 930dps with HH IIs, conflag and heat. Why you would load that ammo is something else especially with the 26km scorch range you get. If we really are talking DPS numbers if your Harbinger is being outdps'd by a Cyclone you need better skills Jesus Christ, learn to read: Quote: MWD? Cap Booster? 1600 Plate? 76k EHP buffer? Good luck firing Conflagration at 15+km :) We ain't measure pricks' sizes in vacuum but general ship's perfomance. __________________ No one has anything to say about Missiles?
FlameGlow GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 48	Posted - 2012.02.24 05:59:00 - [24] - Quote Jeremy Ironforge wrote: But what we have in-game are ships that can't fit proper weapons+mwd+tank. Yes, the caldari gunships for example
Jeremy Ironforge White syndicate BattleStar Alliance 22	Posted - 2012.02.24 06:04:00 - [25] - Quote FlameGlow wrote: Jeremy Ironforge wrote: But what we have in-game are ships that can't fit proper weapons+mwd+tank. Yes, the caldari gunships for example Talking about Ferox and Moa? Funny how Caldari and Amarr have problematic ships in the same class and tier and that those ships have the similar bonuses :) Well that's another issue not connected to this thread.
Korg Tronix Heretic Army Heretic Nation 45	Posted - 2012.02.24 07:33:00 - [26] - Quote Jeremy Ironforge wrote: Korg Tronix wrote: Tbf if we are being really picky about max dps a 3 heat sink HPL Binger does 930dps with HH IIs, conflag and heat. Why you would load that ammo is something else especially with the 26km scorch range you get. If we really are talking DPS numbers if your Harbinger is being outdps'd by a Cyclone you need better skills Jesus Christ, learn to read: Quote: MWD? Cap Booster? 1600 Plate? 76k EHP buffer? Good luck firing Conflagration at 15+km :) We ain't measure pricks' sizes in vacuum but general ship's perfomance. Ok I was just correcting a person earliers obvious attempt at efting the damage difference between the two ships, I used a standard shield Binger by the way. [Harbinger, Standard Armour] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Warrior II x5 Warrior II x5 The above fit is a fairly standard armour harb fit and it outdps' basically every cyclone fit, the only cyclone that comes close is the shield buffer fit but then they are all outdps' by the shield harb. If a Cyclone is at 15km load scorch and be happy. As for the dps difference with the Hurricane, its very close when they are at point blank with the cane taking it I believe but outside of 5km (not sure on this) you should have the better of it on the damage curve. If we are comparing shield cane to shield binger though you produce better dps inside point range due to scorch again (he still has two neuts and is faster but hey). As for the Amarr missile boats, they are all fairly good but above the Vengeance suffer from the 'Drake is as good at this job and costs alot less' and therefore people say the Sac is crap. HAM Sac has a smaller tank and dps than a HAM Drake but costs 3x as much, so why use it? The HAM Legion is still great as it has a massive tank and if 100mn fit has a great way of leaving fights. Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams] http://themabinogion.blogspot.com/
Jaketh Ivanes Incursive Intentions Inc 4	Posted - 2012.02.24 09:02:00 - [27] - Quote I agree that AC do have issues along with lasers. I've made a comparison based on the Maller (the best example of why AC's are better on Amarr ships than lasers). [Maller, TestSetup - AC DPS] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Experimental 10MN Afterburner I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I AGM Capacitor Charge Array 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M Range 1.5+12, Tracking 0.132, RoF 3.09662 Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I DPS is 268 with 831 volly. Cap stable at 38%, 17346 EHP, 0.25 CPU and 199 grid spare, with all 5. [Maller, TestSetup - HP DPS] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Experimental 10MN Afterburner I [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Range 7.5+5, Tracking 0.10156, RoF 2.89018 [empty high slot] DPS 299, volly 863, cap stable at 37%, 17346 ehp, 1.75 cpu and 24.5 grid spare, with all 5. This show the issue very well. Lasers should still be the preferred weapon of choice on the Maller and not unbonused AC's. In my oppinion, a hull should "fix" a weapon so they are viable. Laser cap reduction on Amarr is a good example of a "fixing" bonus. Tracking or RoF could be a good fix for projectile weapons. Yes they are **** fits but show the issue.
Exploited Engineer Creatively Applied Violence Inc. 20	Posted - 2012.02.24 18:01:00 - [28] - Quote Jeremy Ironforge wrote: 2) "Useless bonus". The -10% capacitor bonus is present on almost every amarr hull but it doesn't contribute to the damage output of the weapon or the ship's traits. It gets even worse if the ship has no Laser damage bonus. Talk about "Maller" and "Prophecy" which are among the most gimped in the game. Looks at the bright side: You can use projectile weapons on these ships without "wasting" a laser damage/range/tracking bonus.
Kahz Niverrah We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears 177	Posted - 2012.02.24 18:05:00 - [29] - Quote Jeremy Ironforge wrote: Harby has to scale down its weapons The problem isn't that the Harbinger has to fit smaller guns in order to fit a MWD, tank and utility. The problem is that other tier-2 BCs don't have to make the same fitting choices. I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.
A'Brantox Foson Spiritus Draconis 19	Posted - 2012.02.24 18:10:00 - [30] - Quote tl;dr last half, but amarr are all about the awesome endgame ships. You got, baddons, geddons, apocs, redeemer, avatar, legion (and rev... WH infintie ammo, legion pwns incs) , aeon, archon, guardian, curse (all recons are OP, but so is amarr, woohoo) Minmatar do pwn at solo small stuff admitadly. No worries.



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