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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
423
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Posted - 2012.02.24 20:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
My god... the QQ in here is amazing.
To the OP:
Every weapon system has its advantages and disadvantages. In the case of lasers you get...
- "long" optimal ranges for a "short range" weapon (means you can apply more of your DPS more consistently over a larger area than other weapon systems)... this makes lasers ideal for medium range brawls.
- medium level base damage
- T1 crystals never run out
- ammo (and thus range) can be changed instantly
- Faction and T2 crystals are cheaper per-shot than any other ammo
- ammo crystals are stupid easy to manufacture, move, and store in large amounts... both for yourself or for fleets
... at the cost of...
- lasers cannot track well at point blank range... which is intentional as this is blaster-projectile territory. Lasers are designed to kill at range... not when people are swarming up your butthole.
- lasers consume a lot of capacitor... which is largely seen as the biggest trade-off for all the advantages that lasers can give.
- lasers are stuck doing only EM and Thermal damage... but then again many other ships are stuck doing certain damage types as well. Only the Minmitar have the ability to truly chose the ammo's damage type (yes, the Caldari don't get this title because many of their ships only get bonuses for Kinetic missiles... so they CAN chose a damage type, they just won't get bonuses for it).
With regards to Amarrian ships...
- they are not fast. Nor are they meant to be. The same way Caldari ships were "designed" for ranged combat, Gallente were "designed" for close quarters combat, the way that Minmitar were "designed" to be the skirmish/wildcard... Amarr ships are "designed" to be the proverbial "soldier." Hit hard, tank hard, and keep on trucking.
However, as with everything you CAN customize your ship to do something completely different from what the "intended design" was. Just be aware that you will never be able to modify your ship and perform a tactic EXACTLY the way another ship can... especially when said other ship was designed to do such a thing.
- the cap bonus is a "legacy" thing from WAY back when EVE was still young. Lasers were supposed to be the hardest hitting weapon system in the game, which meant that a damage bonus on ships wasn't necessary. The trade-off was supposed to be that lasers consume so much capacitor that it just would not be reasonable to fit them to any ship other than Amarrian ones.
Today... the mechanics and stats are completely different so I would not object to altering the bonuses of ships like the Maller and Prophecy to make them more similar to the Abaddon (i.e. hits hard, tanks hard, terribad capacitor).
"Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one."
~Unknown |
Dremoirae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.02.25 02:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Korg Tronix wrote:[quote=Jeremy Ironforge]
[quote=Korg Tronix]
As for the Amarr missile boats, they are all fairly good but above the Vengeance suffer from the 'Drake is as good at this job and costs alot less' and therefore people say the Sac is crap. HAM Sac has a smaller tank and dps than a HAM Drake but costs 3x as much, so why use it? The HAM Legion is still great as it has a massive tank and if 100mn fit has a great way of leaving fights.
My God you've compared a Cruiser with Battle cruisers and Strategic Cruiser, the result will totaly different dude,
Vengeance vs drake = Fail
pick opponent with same size  |
Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
45
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Posted - 2012.02.25 02:32:00 -
[33] - Quote
Dremoirae wrote:Korg Tronix wrote:[quote=Jeremy Ironforge]
[quote=Korg Tronix]
As for the Amarr missile boats, they are all fairly good but above the Vengeance suffer from the 'Drake is as good at this job and costs alot less' and therefore people say the Sac is crap. HAM Sac has a smaller tank and dps than a HAM Drake but costs 3x as much, so why use it? The HAM Legion is still great as it has a massive tank and if 100mn fit has a great way of leaving fights. My God you've compared a Cruiser with Battle cruisers and Strategic Cruiser, the result will totaly different dude, Vengeance vs drake = Fail pick opponent with same size
Im not sure but do you actually play EvE. I didn't compare the vengeance to the drake. Although I did compare a HAC to a t2 BC as that is a fair comparison. It is completely reasonable to say that the SAC is overshadowed in its role by the Drake, when HAM fitted they are similar except the Drake is better in p. much every department, so why buy a Sac when you can get everything the sac does in a Drake for less.
To a certain extent this would be true of a HAM Legion except it gets better stats than the Drake so its at least worth it.
Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
[zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
http://themabinogion.blogspot.com/ |
Ahrieman
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
59
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Posted - 2012.02.25 03:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Before the recent hybrid rebalancing, when a new player (especially coming from another MMO) would ask me what build they should make for pvp, after explaining to them that it didn't restrict their character due to cross training, I would tell them Minmatar or Amarr.
With all of the recent changes, I would say anything but caldari for starting and wanting to pvp. Lazers are a great weapon system, but they have their drawbacks. EVERY weapon system has its drawbacks. That's where the balance comes from.
As for the Amarr hulls: "they need a damage bonus" - they have armor resist bonuses instead which is what makes them different from just being lazor gallente light w/ missiles.
Sig tanking is the new black |
OfBalance
Deep Core Mining Inc.
46
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Posted - 2012.02.25 04:00:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ahrieman wrote:Before the recent hybrid rebalancing, when a new player (especially coming from another MMO) would ask me what build they should make for pvp, after explaining to them that it didn't restrict their character due to cross training, I would tell them Minmatar or Amarr.
With all of the recent changes, I would say anything but caldari for starting and wanting to pvp.
In b4 the weekly caldari thread since this one has run its course.  |
Ahrieman
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
59
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Posted - 2012.02.25 04:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:Ahrieman wrote:Before the recent hybrid rebalancing, when a new player (especially coming from another MMO) would ask me what build they should make for pvp, after explaining to them that it didn't restrict their character due to cross training, I would tell them Minmatar or Amarr.
With all of the recent changes, I would say anything but caldari for starting and wanting to pvp.
In b4 the weekly caldari thread since this one has run its course.
I'm not advocating for a whine thread, although your foresight is 20/20, but one of the problems with Caldari for NEW players is that their main T1 frigate (the merlin) is a split weapon platform thus making it very skill intensive to use effectively. The merlin is a great frig once you have the skills, just not friendly to beginners. The T1 cruiser options are also somewhat limited, but with the hybrid changes, the Moa is a much better ship now. Unfortunately, most Caldari pilots tend to focus on missile skills (drake) and leave their gunnery skills lacking.
The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships. The Caldari destroyer prob also gets the short end of the stick in that ship class. It's not that the Caldari are bad, but T1 frig, dessie, T1 cruiser, and BC are the beginner friendly ships.
Merlin: Hybrids and missiles
Cormorant: Hybrids (also lacking in it's class)
Moa: Hybrids
Drake: Missiles
To be proficient with all 4 of these ships provided by the Caldari is very skill intensive.
Sig tanking is the new black |
OfBalance
Deep Core Mining Inc.
46
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Posted - 2012.02.25 04:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
Bummer, guess I have to make the trol... I mean, whine thread later.
Better get a few more shots in first. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
20
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Posted - 2012.02.25 12:50:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ahrieman wrote:The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships.
Don't forget that Caldari pilots also need to train drone skills to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their ships, with the sole exception of Tengu-only (and maybe frigate/AF-only) pilots. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
136
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Posted - 2012.02.26 09:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Ahrieman wrote:The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships. Don't forget that Caldari pilots also need to train drone skills to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their ships, with the sole exception of Tengu-only (and maybe frigate/AF-only) pilots.
Well this is the case for all races, nothing special about caldari |
Alara IonStorm
1677
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Posted - 2012.02.26 09:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Ahrieman wrote:The duality of weapon systems used by Caldari just doesn't make it friendly to new players although it has some very good ships. Don't forget that Caldari pilots also need to train drone skills to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their ships, with the sole exception of Tengu-only (and maybe frigate/AF-only) pilots.
They are pretty much spared the train for Heavies / Sentries which are two separate Rank 5 skills the same as any other Large Weapon System and needs to be brought to 5 to get the T2 Spec which makes them worth it.
The only Caldari Ship not counting Guristas that can mount a full Flight is the Chimera Capital Ship. Everything else has a 75m3 and below bay. So unless you are training Chimera that is 2 Skills the equivalent of Large Hybrid and Cruise Missiles you do not need to train.
I would say they are not hit nearly as hard in Drones unless you are going Carrier. |
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Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
21
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Posted - 2012.02.26 11:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:They are pretty much spared the train for Heavies / Sentries which are two separate Rank 5 skills the same as any other Large Weapon System and needs to be brought to 5 to get the T2 Spec which makes them worth it.
The only Caldari Ship not counting Guristas that can mount a full Flight is the Chimera Capital Ship. Everything else has a 75m3 and below bay.
And to get the most out of a 75m-¦ drone bay, you need two heavy drones.
And don't forget the CNR, which could field three sentry drones and a flight of light drones for small stuff that gets too close.
Caldari ships have "just enough" drone capabilities that you need at least heavy drones to level five (for 1-2-2). |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
21
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Posted - 2012.02.26 11:51:00 -
[42] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:Well this is the case for all races, nothing special about caldari
But two of these races actually get dedicated drone boats that make good drone skills really shine, and the other race at least gets ships that can field five heavy drones or five sentry drones.
Caldari drone bays max out at 75m-¦ (or 100m-¦ with 75 Mbit/s for the CNR), meaning that you do need heavy drones to get the most DPS out of your five drones. |
Alara IonStorm
1677
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Posted - 2012.02.26 12:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:
And to get the most out of a 75m-¦ drone bay, you need two heavy drones.
Yeah 99% run Mediums / Lights or Lights / ECM. Their is barely a situation where you would be better off using them. Not enough of one to justify the train. The extra 50 DPS over Hammers is not worth the loss of utility with Warriors.
Exploited Engineer wrote:
And don't forget the CNR, which could field three sentry drones and a flight of light drones for small stuff that gets too close.
Fair enough on that but not really required to make good use of the boat. Truth is that Hammers put out the same / more DPS all of them except the Gaude which put out 20 more. Their flight time between targets is not that long ether and they are more valuable for added DPS on Elite AB Close Orbiting Cruisers.
Sentries on a CNR are not all they are cracked up to be.
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Caldari ships have "just enough" drone capabilities that you need at least heavy drones to level five (for 1-2-2).
Not really, their is very little difference in the Cal Subcap Line up to justify the training vs Gal, Min and Amarr. Gallente you need early on, Minmatar you need to make use of the Typhoon which you could reasonably forgo and Amarr the Navy Geddon not that it would not be a good ship without it, the Geddon giving up lights and Mids sets it far ahead in Damage to justify it but is still good with a Warrior, Hammer, ECM Split.
Straight down to it they are not a good time investment for Caldari at all unless you go Carrier. You can be basically 99% effective on all Sub Caps with Med, Lights and ECM while Gal are hit the hardest with needing 2 Rank 5 Trains and Min / Amarr have good use for them.
Not worth 30-40ish days Training unless you cross train another race. |
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