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Vargur badly needs more power grid!!

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Eneela M University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:12:00 - [1] This ship is essentially ok imo, except for a horrible lack of grid. I understand it's meant for shield tanking and PDU's should make up some of the grid, but the vargur can't even fit 4x 1200 II arties + an XL booster WITH 3x PDU II. I don't mind working around some things if that's the way it's meant to be, but i can't help looking at all those kronos/paladin pilots swanning around with full racks of 425's and tachy's with grid to spare & feeling like I pulled a short straw.
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:20:00 - [2] Wow, use the search function. I think you are bost 1238735478 with this same topic!
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:22:00 - [3] Use the Search Function to find the stuff your looking for, aka the 5000 other topics about the Vargur and PG. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Kaleidon Reth Intercommercial Aerospace Retail United Stations ICARUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:22:00 - [4] I dunno much about the Vargur and fitting it per se, but are you sure it's not possible to go almost full gank on it and just outgank most missions? You might have to skip on 2-3 lvl4s in total because there's just to much ** aggroing at once, but maybe you can get away with a semi-passive tank or a smaller booster and just kill ** really fast?
Asestorian Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:34:00 - [5] The only reason it doesn't have more powergrid is because that would make it too powerful in PvP, which is exactly what CCP don't want, as these are PvE ships. The issue comes from the differences between ACs and Artys. While it is annoying, the answer cannot be to add more powergrid, so another solution must be found. --- MOZO
Kaleidon Reth Intercommercial Aerospace Retail United Stations ICARUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:43:00 - [6] Also, PG rigs? Fit faction guns instead of t2(unless you need to use t2 ammo), faction PDUs? This is a PvE ship, you can afford to faction fit it.
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Kaleidon Reth Also, PG rigs? Fit faction guns instead of t2(unless you need to use t2 ammo), faction PDUs? This is a PvE ship, you can afford to faction fit it. Faction projectiles are exactly equivelent to best named.
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Annowyn Originally by: Kaleidon Reth Also, PG rigs? Fit faction guns instead of t2(unless you need to use t2 ammo), faction PDUs? This is a PvE ship, you can afford to faction fit it. Faction projectiles are exactly equivelent to best named. This is not correct. Faction artillery, for example, has a 5% better ROF over best named. This beat in pure DPS terms by T2, assuming you have the correct artillery spec to 3 or more.
zayanka Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:21:00 - [9] If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L 2 tractor beams and 1 salvager Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit II And also it is completely cap stable
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:23:00 - [10] Originally by: zayanka If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L 2 tractor beams and 1 salvager Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit II And also it is completely cap stable If you fly something like this, please post on General boards. A lot of people would like to know. And two fitting mods? K.
Sergo Mor'Zert Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:33:00 - [11] the only thing that would made vargur so powerfull in pvp is this falloff bonus... so: give vargur more grid and swap falloff bonus for optimal range bonus and now you have ship that is good in pve with arties and crap in pvp with autocanons, and no it will not work well in fleets, to costly and with this crap sensor strength it will be jammed for entire engagement, or at least till it get primaried... and no no one sane use autocanons for missions its doable but far from optimal solution, good only if you extremally bored... all marauders are good ammo consumption wise so can use faction ammunition to increase damage output considerably, vargur with acs is locked to t1 as with faction ammo you wouldnt earn much on mission, you would pay through your nose for faction ammo acs throw out like there is no tomorrow... and dps in falloff isnt stellar...
zayanka Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:38:00 - [12] downgrade the guns and you can get rid of RCU and fit damage control instead
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:01:00 - [13] Originally by: zayanka downgrade the guns and you can get rid of RCU and fit damage control instead Except that anyone using this ship can already tank well enough and wants to run missions faster (read: more dps)
Guillame Herschel The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:38:00 - [14] There is nothing wrong with the Vargur that a boost to its falloff bonus won't fix. It does really good out to 60km or so with T2 falloff rigs. Not that those are very expensive items to fit to a ship that costs what a Vargur costs, but you shouldn't have to fit T2 rigs to get the ship to perform as well as its counterparts unrigged. The falloff bonus is simply to low. Double it, and the ship will perform with Autocannons as well as any other Maurauder, and way better close range ("Help me, I'm melting!" says Xevni Jipon). *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. --*
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.03.25 00:14:00 - [15] Originally by: Guillame Herschel There is nothing wrong with the Vargur that a boost to its falloff bonus won't fix. It does really good out to 60km or so with T2 falloff rigs. Not that those are very expensive items to fit to a ship that costs what a Vargur costs, but you shouldn't have to fit T2 rigs to get the ship to perform as well as its counterparts unrigged. The falloff bonus is simply to low. Double it, and the ship will perform with Autocannons as well as any other Maurauder, and way better close range ("Help me, I'm melting!" says Xevni Jipon). At 60km, you are going to be doing 1/2 damage with AC's. Thats heaps less than the damage an arty Mael can lay down at that range. Doubling the falloff bonus will make it too powerful for PvP as it will have a much wider range of operation vs laser and blaster boats with high DPS. People will fit it with ECCM and fly it for that reason.
Eneela M University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 12:34:00 - [16] Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:34:53 Originally by: zayanka If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L 2 tractor beams and 1 salvager Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit II And also it is completely cap stable For a paladin you can fit 1x LAR, 4x tachy II's and a nanobot + aux nano and it tanks any lvl 4 mission. No fitting mods required. Same setup goes for the kronos and 425's - these are very popular setups as i'm sure you know. You're kind of missing the point with faction fits anyway, yes that setup fits but how much does it cost, over 2b? Compare your setup to a plain tech 2 paladin that costs less than 100m to fit and you'll quickly see the paladin does more DOT, spend 2b on the paladin and it would blow your vargur into the weeds. Spending 2b on a ship just to make it almost compare to other races isn't what I'd call fair.
Sal Alo Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.26 05:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Eneela M Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:37:25 Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:34:53 Originally by: zayanka If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L 2 tractor beams and 1 salvager Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit II And also it is completely cap stable For a paladin you can fit 1x LAR, 4x tachy II's and a nanobot + aux nano and it tanks any lvl 4 mission. No fitting mods required. Same setup goes for the kronos and 425's - these are very popular setups as i'm sure you know. You're kind of missing the point with faction fits anyway, yes that setup fits but how much does it cost, over 2b? Compare your setup to a plain tech 2 paladin that costs less than 100m to fit and you'll quickly see the paladin does considerably more DOT, spend 2b on the paladin and it would blow your vargur into the weeds. Spending 2b on a ship just to make it almost compare to other races isn't what I'd call fair. This is the real minmatar problem, not just vargur plus we need a larger amount of skill. ___________________________________ ISK SELLERS: PROBLEM SOLVED, CCP +1
Liu State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Asestorian The only reason it doesn't have more powergrid is because that would make it too powerful in PvP, which is exactly what CCP don't want, as these are PvE ships. The issue comes from the differences between ACs and Artys. While it is annoying, the answer cannot be to add more powergrid, so another solution must be found. well, CCP could give the vargur a special 10% per level to arty fitting ease, just like covert ops have with cloaks. Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.03.26 10:24:00 - [19] CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield. If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first... ------------------------------------------
Liu State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 10:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Shadowsword CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield. If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first... i already answered that. CCP could give a special arty fitting bonus to the vargur, so that without boosting its powergrid, it could fit long range weapons, just like any other marauder. Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Alrich Fenrens shadows	Posted - 2008.03.26 10:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Liu Originally by: Shadowsword CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield. If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first... i already answered that. CCP could give a special arty fitting bonus to the vargur, so that without boosting its powergrid, it could fit long range weapons, just like any other marauder. at the cost of what bonus? they cant add another bonus just to fix it, it needs the same amount of bonuses as the other marauders
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.03.26 10:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Eneela M Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:37:25 Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:34:53 Originally by: zayanka If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L 2 tractor beams and 1 salvager Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit II And also it is completely cap stable For a paladin you can fit 1x LAR, 4x tachy II's and a nanobot + aux nano and it tanks any lvl 4 mission. No fitting mods required. Same setup goes for the kronos and 425's - these are very popular setups as i'm sure you know. You're kind of missing the point with faction fits anyway, yes that setup fits but how much does it cost, over 2b? Compare your setup to a plain tech 2 paladin that costs less than 100m to fit and you'll quickly see the paladin does considerably more DOT, spend 2b on the paladin and it would blow your vargur into the weeds. Spending 2b on a ship just to make it almost compare to other races isn't what I'd call fair. Except in order to have a T2 fit you need fitting mods, negating one of your points. The better way is to faction fit, which significantly increase the pricetag in your example. Let's stop with this blatant and failed manipulation of numbers.
Liu State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 10:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Alrich Originally by: Liu Originally by: Shadowsword CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield. If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first... i already answered that. CCP could give a special arty fitting bonus to the vargur, so that without boosting its powergrid, it could fit long range weapons, just like any other marauder. at the cost of what bonus? they cant add another bonus just to fix it, it needs the same amount of bonuses as the other marauders no sir, what i needs is to be able to use long range weapons like the other marauders, even if it means giving her a special bonus. Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Slide Butcherblock Mining and Manufacturing	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:07:00 - [24] Edited by: Slide on 26/03/2008 11:16:08 Edited by: Slide on 26/03/2008 11:09:03 Here is a little mat, i fitted all 4 Marauders with their smallest large range tech 2 weapon only, no other module fitted, i took a all lvl 5 skill to make it even for all. Myself i fly a Vargur and swapped from artillery to AC's to try that out, i only use the Vargur whith AC's against Angels, all else i use my Maelstrom. Else i would fight in my falloff (loss of dps) all the time if i wouldn't fit a AB to get in range, and beside that after a few months of testing i find the Maelstrom performing better against pretty much all non Angel missions.(Included the fact i have to use 4 grid modules to fit 4 1400 artillery) Paladin: 4 X Dual heavy beam laser II: Powergrid usage: 6.930 / 16.975 , leaves + 9.945 for rest fitting. Golem: 4 X Cruise Missile launcher II: Powergrid usage: 4.726 / 8.125 , leaves + 3.399 for rest fitting. Kronos: 4 X Dual 250mm Railgun II: Powergrid usage: 4.726 / 15.000, leaves + 10.274 for rest fitting. Vargur: 4 X 1200mm Artillery Cannon II: Powergrid usage: 10.890 / 9.875, leaves - 1.015 for rest fitting.
Slide Butcherblock Mining and Manufacturing	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:56:00 - [25] IMHO the best fix would be a small adjustement on the amount of PG artillery uses, as a side bonus.
EpicFailTroll Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:40:00 - [26] EFT says that with sufficient skills -which i believe are needed anyway to fly a marauder- you only need 2 ACR rigs and one RCU II to fit a full rack of 1400s II, no ab tho. Considering how artillery works and the vargur bonus i believe it may even be overpowered. And yes i fly minmatar.
Liu State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:55:00 - [27] Originally by: Slide IMHO the best fix would be a small adjustement on the amount of PG artillery uses, as a side bonus. if you mean, a bonus to arty fitting on the vargur, yes. if you mean a general decrease of arty PG, no. Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 15:10:00 - [28] They could replace the tractor beam bonus with the arty fitting ease ;) Actually they could just add it to the special bonuses, not that being able to fit a full rack of arties would make the Vargur terribly powerful. Adding PG to allow massive ACs+Neuts otoh certainly would... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Slide Butcherblock Mining and Manufacturing	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:04:00 - [29] Originally by: EpicFailTroll EFT says that with sufficient skills -which i believe are needed anyway to fly a marauder- you only need 2 ACR rigs and one RCU II to fit a full rack of 1400s II, no ab tho. Considering how artillery works and the vargur bonus i believe it may even be overpowered. And yes i fly minmatar. Not to be rude, but the difference is i fly the ship and tested it for months, where your knowledge comes from EFT only as it seems. No matter how noble your intentions, but i wouldnt call 3 modules (2 rigs and 1 RCU) "only" Especialy not when i can fit 8 1400's on a Maelstrom without using a single mod for it.
EpicFailTroll Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Slide Originally by: EpicFailTroll EFT says that with sufficient skills -which i believe are needed anyway to fly a marauder- you only need 2 ACR rigs and one RCU II to fit a full rack of 1400s II, no ab tho. Considering how artillery works and the vargur bonus i believe it may even be overpowered. And yes i fly minmatar. Not to be rude, but the difference is i fly the ship and tested it for months, where your knowledge comes from EFT only as it seems. No matter how noble your intentions, but i wouldnt call 3 modules (2 rigs and 1 RCU) "only" Especialy not when i can fit 8 1400's on a Maelstrom without using a single mod for it. How dare you question the wisdom originating from EFT... Also though you can fit a full rack of 1400s and a XL sb on a Malestrosm you need a module to fit an AB which is badly needed as its as fast as a carrier, also you need speed mods in the lows since it turns twice as slow as a mammoth. Lots of wasted slots to compensate. But I guess you're a rich speculator faction fitting his shield tank, you just ctrl+space and f1-f8 without moving whatsoever... we know your kind... Trolling aside, i find a tempest runs quicker missions than a malestrosm for aforementioned reasons. So the hueg dmg bonus on the Vargur Vikernes appeals to me, even if i have to put 2 RCU IIs and 2 ACR to fit a full rack of 1400 and a cap injector. T2 setup not faction.
Slide Butcherblock Mining and Manufacturing	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:39:00 - [31] Edited by: Slide on 27/03/2008 17:48:40 Originally by: EpicFailTroll But I guess you're a rich speculator faction fitting his shield tank, you just ctrl+space and f1-f8 without moving whatsoever... we know your kind... ??? Please show me the part where i mentioned i am "your kind" ? As a side note, first you say you can fit a a full rack of 1400's on a Vargur with 3 rig mods "only" yet without a AB, then you mention a Maelstrom can't be outfitted with a rack of 1400's + shieldboost without a rig module because you can't fly that setup whitout a AB, make up your mind, AB or no AB for both ships. (The only missions wich would be hard without a AB on a Maelstrom are Angel missions, all the rest i fly without a AB. Speedmodules in lowslot for missions while using a AB? PS: to talk at the same level. You probly dream of the fight in mentioned ships purely on the knowledge you gained by playing with EFT, we know your kind
Eneela M University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Dahak2150 Originally by: Eneela M Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:37:25 Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:34:53 Originally by: zayanka If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L 2 tractor beams and 1 salvager Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit II And also it is completely cap stable For a paladin you can fit 1x LAR, 4x tachy II's and a nanobot + aux nano and it tanks any lvl 4 mission. No fitting mods required. Same setup goes for the kronos and 425's - these are very popular setups as i'm sure you know. You're kind of missing the point with faction fits anyway, yes that setup fits but how much does it cost, over 2b? Compare your setup to a plain tech 2 paladin that costs less than 100m to fit and you'll quickly see the paladin does considerably more DOT, spend 2b on the paladin and it would blow your vargur into the weeds. Spending 2b on a ship just to make it almost compare to other races isn't what I'd call fair. Except in order to have a T2 fit you need fitting mods, negating one of your points. The better way is to faction fit, which significantly increase the pricetag in your example. Let's stop with this blatant and failed manipulation of numbers. you can fit a full T2 fit on a kronos np, the paladin requires a lower pg rep to fit tachy II's - a plain t1 rep would be more than enough, an amarr faction costs like 50m. BIG DEAL! It's nothing like a 2b setup - you're the one manipulating numbers. Have you even flown a vargur or tried to fit one? It's a world away from a kronos/paladin.
Thercon Jair InQuest Ascension	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Alrich Originally by: Liu Originally by: Shadowsword CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield. If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first... i already answered that. CCP could give a special arty fitting bonus to the vargur, so that without boosting its powergrid, it could fit long range weapons, just like any other marauder. at the cost of what bonus? they cant add another bonus just to fix it, it needs the same amount of bonuses as the other marauders Why would they need to remove a bonus? The Marauders don't follow the lines of racial traits. A golem gets target painter effectiveness and a bonus to shield boost amount, both Minmatar traits. Paladin and Kronos get a bonus to Stasis Webifier effectivenes, also a Minmatar trait. The Vargur gets bonuses to make the guns perform better, yet they are still outperformed by all other Marauders. Also, the armageddon has had its capacitor size bonus built in and received an optimal bonus. As was already discussed CCP doesn't want to build in some PG bonus as it would make it a deadly close range PvP ship. Why should it be impossible to get a powergrid reduction for artillery built in? It would still perform worse than the other Marauders, but it would become at least useful for Mission running. Oh, and did anyone notice that the Vargur still costs as much as any other Marauder? Even ships considered "bad" by a majority of people still cost as much as the favoured ships since invention came in. If it wasn't for invention prices for Vargurs would drop like flies because no Vargur BPO owner could sell the ships at those prices. The vargur definitely needs a bit of love Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!
Shofix Umgeh	Posted - 2008.03.30 19:45:00 - [34] Ok, lemme start by saying that I generally believe that trolling about "omg, my ship isn't l33t enough" is not my normal style, but then again, rarely am I left in a position where I just simply cannot understand what a ship is for given the role/fitting requirements. Tbh, it makes me sick that the Vargur can't fit a rack of 1200s (not even the best guns) with a normal Raven/Maelstrom type tank. What we have here is a ship that's 5 times the price of a Tier 3 BS and isn't actually as good for PVE or PVP - interesting philosophy to follow. The balance between the Vargur (and Golem actually, it doesn't look 'all that' on the face of it) and the other Marauders is that they CAN fit their ships reasonably well, where the Vargur (and possibly Golem) cannot. Waste of time...
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.30 20:26:00 - [35] vargur problem: grid differences between AC's and howies is pretty much broken, when comparing blasters with rails and pulses with beams. this means that simply increasing the grid on the vargur would give way to setups that would be probably considered overpowered or near it, since it would be very easy to fit 800mm's, full tank and gank and neuts/nosfs in high with no kind of fitting mods whatsoever, something that I believe that even the other 3 marauders have a hard time to do. so the problem is not the vargur itself, but the gun fitting requirements. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Lorz0r Capital Produce Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.03.30 20:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Annowyn Wow, use the search function. I think you are bost 1238735478 with this same topic! oh hay - can you just point me to the search function plox...
Liu State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.30 20:52:00 - [37] Originally by: Grimpak vargur problem: grid differences between AC's and howies is pretty much broken, when comparing blasters with rails and pulses with beams. this means that simply increasing the grid on the vargur would give way to setups that would be probably considered overpowered or near it, since it would be very easy to fit 800mm's, full tank and gank and neuts/nosfs in high with no kind of fitting mods whatsoever, something that I believe that even the other 3 marauders have a hard time to do. so the problem is not the vargur itself, but the gun fitting requirements. that is why we are proposing to give the vargur an aditional bonus to arty fitting. that way she can fit long range guns but not nos/neuts Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Grimpak	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:49:00 - [38] Originally by: Liu Originally by: Grimpak vargur problem: grid differences between AC's and howies is pretty much broken, when comparing blasters with rails and pulses with beams. this means that simply increasing the grid on the vargur would give way to setups that would be probably considered overpowered or near it, since it would be very easy to fit 800mm's, full tank and gank and neuts/nosfs in high with no kind of fitting mods whatsoever, something that I believe that even the other 3 marauders have a hard time to do. so the problem is not the vargur itself, but the gun fitting requirements. that is why we are proposing to give the vargur an aditional bonus to arty fitting. that way she can fit long range guns but not nos/neuts or simply change the grid requirements of both AC and howies in a balanced way so that they are comparable to the rest of the guns? --- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Griever Takkow Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:16:00 - [39] CCP really do need to sort out the PG gap between AC and arty. Probably what they should do is take 220AC as the baseline, reduce damage on 180's slightly but give them a tracking boost, buff the damage on 425's and then give them a tracking nerf in order to better differentiate between tier's of AC. Then apply the same balance to all small and medium sizes. Then they need to buff ALL OF THEM. AND THEN they should increase the PG requirements on all of them, particualarly 425's. Then they could afford to give the Vargur a slight grid boost, and minnie pilots in general would have to make sacrifices in their fits when going with AC's, instead of simply fitting the middle tier AC as generally there is almost no point fitting the largest tier as the dps increase is tiny, and no point fitting smaller because 95% of minnie ships have grid to spare with AC's anyway.
El Yatta	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:28:00 - [40] Edited by: El Yatta on 31/03/2008 00:28:58 No. Its madness to mess with the entire AC/artillery line, and have to rebalancing fitting on 1/4 of the ships in eve, just to buff one mediocre ship. The grid difference between arties and ACs, and how ACs differ from other guns (no range change with tier) are part of the uniqueness of them. I like them al ot, please dont change it to be more homogenous and boring. Similar, a fitting bonus to arties feels very ham fisted and clunky. Frankly, they should just give it more raw grid. I dont think it would be overpowered, even using full tank, 800s and 3 heavy neuts. Thats a lot of hurt on your own cap, on a shield tanker, and its still got the weaknesses in PVP of the marauder class - sensor strength, sig and cost. "Overpowered" is rather subjective - you wont suddenly start seeing gangs of 20 of them roaming round killing everything! It wont become FOTM ship. 800s hit hard on the Vargur anyway, but if its that important for the whining mission runners to have arty on their mission ship (I have no idea if this is true or not, but I'll take their word for it), for christ's sake just give them some grid and remove highsec l4s. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
Zaran Darkstar	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:34:00 - [41] I was searching at the market at Domain the other day to see the availability of the various Marauders. I saw about 10 Kronos about 10 Golems about 20+ Paladins(natural since is Amarr space) but NO VARGURS!! Why noone sells the ship? Because there is no market interest therfore there is no profit for the maker. In my case i fly both amarr and Minmatar BSes. I use Minmatar for one type of foes and Amaar for other types of foes. Despite the fact that paladin is better though i am going for Minmatar BS lvl 5 first because the level up gives Minmatar BSes a greater boost imo. So i will possibly buy the Vargur eventually not to do the missions but to use only as salvaging ship :-) Apart from that the Vargur sucks. I have managed to make only 1 viable fitting that tanks slightly better than the Maelstorm but does worse damage. The values of them are with all skills at 5. (both ships are using 1200 tech II artilleries,both are able to perma run the shield boosters , the DPS are calculated with Phased Plasma L fitted) For max defence with X-Large Shield Booster II on both ships Malestorm: 399 DPS, Defence against guristas: 1089 Vargur: 334 DPS , Defence against Guristas: 1331 I also made a more Damage dealing oriented fitting for both ships with Large shield booster II Maelstorm: 449 DPS, Defence against Guristas:821 Vargur :449 DPS , Defence against guristas: 898 All in all the Vargur has slightly better defence but requirs also a hardwiring implant for PG 3% a ton of skills to fly and costs 5 times more than a Malestorm. The extra falloff and tracking sure help but i don't think they are a decisive factor. As for fittings with ACs and Barrage they are simply not viable for most missions and the cost of so many rounds of Barrage would make cost greater than profit. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Enduros The Fallen Gingerbread Men Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:46:00 - [42] I fly one.. using ACs.. What I find weird is that the ship with the biggest ammo consumption(seriously, this isn't even funny) has the smallest cargo bay. The dps is massive once you get under 25km, upward of 35km you just throwing away isk. Even with ACs I still need one PDS to fit my guns. Fair enough. Maybe it's possible to give it a bonus like destroyers have? Loose the ROF bonus and give more damage? Cause with current PG you will not get an arti boat if that's what people are worried about. Or can someone maybe buy me some ammo? - If you find the post above offensive feel free to feel offended.
Zaran Darkstar	Posted - 2008.03.31 05:44:00 - [43] Since CCP declares they are not going to change the PG of the ship i have a solution. Give it only 3 Turret hardpoints + a missile hardpoint and give it 25% to Projectile damage. (so give it the Tempest bonuses to gunfire the rest of bonuses remain the same) That way its firepower will drop to that of a Tempest or slightly above that and will free up some PG. What do you think? :-) _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Grimpak	Posted - 2008.03.31 07:22:00 - [44] Originally by: El Yatta Edited by: El Yatta on 31/03/2008 00:28:58 No. Its madness to mess with the entire AC/artillery line, and have to rebalancing fitting on 1/4 of the ships in eve, just to buff one mediocre ship. The grid difference between arties and ACs, and how ACs differ from other guns (no range change with tier) are part of the uniqueness of them. I like them al ot, please dont change it to be more homogenous and boring. Similar, a fitting bonus to arties feels very ham fisted and clunky. I have to agree with the fact that changing the grid requirements for both the AC's and arties would mean rebalancing the entire race as a whole. However it's also true that the gap between AC's and arties is much more bigger than blasters and rails, and pulses and beams. --- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Ess Erbe	Posted - 2008.03.31 09:03:00 - [45] Would it not be possible to give the Vargur an extra bonus that reduces the PG need of artilleries on it, like stealth bombers get for cruise missile launchers? Not as large a bonus as stealth bombers of course, but enough to make it possible to fit 1200's and a XL T2 booster without fitting mods with max fitting skills? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Sexiest Beast State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.31 09:31:00 - [46] Edited by: Sexiest Beast on 31/03/2008 09:32:33 [Vargur, 1400mm] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II Sensor Booster II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Effective HP : 74,943 Tank : 584 (perma run) DPS/Volley : 255/3167 Tf : 709/781.25 Mw : 15372/16592.33 Skillset : Actual Character I think thats roughly what id use if i flew a Vargur and it certainly looks like it would sail through a mission with ease. Ive never had the need to use let alone perma run a XL booster in PVE. You could also easily start swapping out mods for faction items to squeeze even more from the ship. Marauders are still very new and not alot of people fly them. Get your self on SISI and flight test it a little more. Changing the way you fly might help. Personally i prefer a command ship :)
Tyr Zewa Tax Collectors	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:05:00 - [47] The "it would be to powerfull in pvp" bit totally fails, they already got a low sensor strenght to make them not so viable for pvp. And i am sure a golem can just as well fit a neuts + cruise or neuts + siege and be more powerfull than an AC + Neut vargur would ever be. It's a pve ship, make it pve viable.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Sexiest Beast Edited by: Sexiest Beast on 31/03/2008 09:32:33 [Vargur, 1400mm] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II Sensor Booster II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Effective HP : 74,943 Tank : 584 (perma run) DPS/Volley : 255/3167 Tf : 709/781.25 Mw : 15372/16592.33 Skillset : Actual Character I think thats roughly what id use if i flew a Vargur and it certainly looks like it would sail through a mission with ease. Ive never had the need to use let alone perma run a XL booster in PVE. You could also easily start swapping out mods for faction items to squeeze even more from the ship. Marauders are still very new and not alot of people fly them. Get your self on SISI and flight test it a little more. Changing the way you fly might help. Personally i prefer a command ship :) that many fitting mods + rigs looks like alot of fail to me, as a projo novice I have to ask why not use 1200s? ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Erotic Irony that many fitting mods + rigs looks like alot of fail to me, as a projo novice I have to ask why not use 1200s? you still need grid mods to slap 1200. fewer grid mods, but still needed. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Tyr Zewa Tax Collectors	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:17:00 - [50] I guess in the end we can all agree that this ship is a big failure. Maybe i'll train my alt up to use one as salvage boat tough :P
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:53:00 - [51] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 31/03/2008 10:55:21 Originally by: Sexiest Beast Edited by: Sexiest Beast on 31/03/2008 09:32:33 [Vargur, 1400mm] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II Sensor Booster II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Effective HP : 74,943 Tank : 584 (perma run) DPS/Volley : 255/3167 Tf : 709/781.25 Mw : 15372/16592.33 Skillset : Actual Character I think thats roughly what id use if i flew a Vargur and it certainly looks like it would sail through a mission with ease. Ive never had the need to use let alone perma run a XL booster in PVE. You could also easily start swapping out mods for faction items to squeeze even more from the ship. Marauders are still very new and not alot of people fly them. Get your self on SISI and flight test it a little more. Changing the way you fly might help. Personally i prefer a command ship :) I dont fly vargur ,but why it needs a sensor booster and a heavy cap booster ? Plus 1200 arties should be enough and put some more gyrostabs up. And i think with boost boni you wont need x-large shield booseter only a large one with shield boost amply. I can be wrong then tell me where , but asking for a boost because ship cant support a fit you should not use on it is silly.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.31 11:00:00 - [52] Originally by: Sexiest Beast Edited by: Sexiest Beast on 31/03/2008 09:32:33 [Vargur, 1400mm] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II Sensor Booster II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Effective HP : 74,943 Tank : 584 (perma run) DPS/Volley : 255/3167 Tf : 709/781.25 Mw : 15372/16592.33 Skillset : Actual Character I think thats roughly what id use if i flew a Vargur and it certainly looks like it would sail through a mission with ease. Ive never had the need to use let alone perma run a XL booster in PVE. You could also easily start swapping out mods for faction items to squeeze even more from the ship. Marauders are still very new and not alot of people fly them. Get your self on SISI and flight test it a little more. Changing the way you fly might help. Personally i prefer a command ship :) I doupt you will every be able to complete a hard lvl 4 mission with this fitting (like Worlds collide or Damsel in distress ,The Assault vs guristas etc) This fitting looks like the fittings people try on their first ships cause they lack the engineering skills to fit the mods they want. It's a really really bad fitting. I am amazed at how bad it is! _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Liu	Posted - 2008.03.31 11:27:00 - [53] Originally by: Slide Paladin: 4 X Dual heavy beam laser II: Powergrid usage: 6.930 / 16.975 , leaves + 9.945 for rest fitting. Golem: 4 X Cruise Missile launcher II: Powergrid usage: 4.726 / 8.125 , leaves + 3.399 for rest fitting. Kronos: 4 X Dual 250mm Railgun II: Powergrid usage: 4.726 / 15.000, leaves + 10.274 for rest fitting. Vargur: 4 X 1200mm Artillery Cannon II: Powergrid usage: 10.890 / 9.875, leaves - 1.015 for rest fitting. this should be written on 1000 post-its and pasted on the desk of whatever dev designed this ships Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Sexiest Beast State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.31 12:14:00 - [54] Sensor booster : With tremor you can get a decent optimal and falloff so the sensor booster will make sure you can maximise the entire capability of the 14's range Also if you put in a scan res script its nice to be able to lock those figs and alpha them asap. 14's Vs 12's : To op was moaning about 14's and the vargs inability to fit them. Also 12's just dont float my boat and i firmly believe that arties should always be the highest you can fit. especially as alpha is your primary concern. Nub first timer fit : FYI i have just under 50mil sp and have high gunnery and fitting skills. Personally i dont think missions are hard at all including those that were mentioned. XL booster/Cap charges Again the op mentioned fitting 14's and an XL booster. I also stated that the xl was indeed overkill. As a side note ive never liked sacrificing 2 slots when 1 is enough. large+amp is 2 slots.. Yes the XL uses cap but it will perma run and marauders have decent enough cargohold sizes. Cap boosters are also intended incase of being neuted by some of the various NPC BS's and towers. When the **** hits the fan you want to be able to cope and not explode in a ball of flames. Fitting Mods As the op stated grid is certainly an issue. Ive never understood where CCP set their goals for fitting reqs but with a little searching and thought you can see why some of their grids lack in various areas. Maybe the intnetion was that due to the damage bonus and lack of turret slots CCP decided that hughe arty style grids wasnt needed. It is possible to fit 14's and an XL booster unlike the ops said. Zaran Please come up with an alternative fit that has both 1400's and an XL Booster. Ive flown hundreds of missions and been flying L4's ever since they came out. They arent hard. the tracking comp is because tremor has a tendency to gimp your tracking and its nice to compensate for it. Personally when your up against more of the "harder" missions you can compensate for damage by fitting a racial resist. If i was on the mordus fr example id swap out the tracking for a kin and use Tit Sabot. Generally your against angels as your Matari and Fusion should be loaded by default. Hope that answers some of your questions
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:36:00 - [55] You need AWU5 to even fly this ship, so there is no point doing a fitting w/o max fitting skils. This is what I would fit currently (setup for Angels): [Vargur, 1400 T2] Reactor Control Unit II Power Diagnostic System II Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination 100MN Afterburner Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Explosion Dampening Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I -------------------------------------- 90% of missions you wont need the cap booster and you can swap it out for a TC, SB, etc. You can get a 5% grid implant and swap the PDUII for something useful (TE, another Gyro for 6% DPS increase). Since the PDU, ACR's, and RCU give 5%, 10%, and 15% more grid respectively, we can clearly see what we would gain if we were to add more grid (or effective grid through a fitting bonus). 5% more would mean we could drop the PDU for more damage/tracking 10% more grid would mean we could drop a ACR for a CCC, the PDU for damage/tracking, or change the RCUII to a PDUII. 15% more grid would mean we could drop the RCUII, or the PDUII & a ACR etc etc
Nathanial Victor	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:27:00 - [56] So if they upped the powergrid on the vargur, it would be too powerful for PVP? Their sensor strength is SO WEAK, how is that a valid statement? It would take one of the shiny new EW Frigs all of half a second to lock it down completely. The weakness to the EW side of the field I think is all the 'down side' this boat needs. What it DOESN'T need is its powergrid borked to the point you need 2-3 fitting mods to fit weapons intended for the ship. No other ship in the game needs to face that except Amarr bs's fitting Tachyons, and as most ppl know, those weapons are in a catagory all to their own unlike 1400's. "one more spam thread will get you a warning. - Thanks Hutch. " isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'? my head hurts
Grimpak	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Nathanial Victor So if they upped the powergrid on the vargur, it would be too powerful for PVP? well, that WAS the reason CCP gave about the feeble vargur grid. --- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:42:00 - [58] Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 18:42:23 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nathanial Victor So if they upped the powergrid on the vargur, it would be too powerful for PVP? well, that WAS the reason CCP gave about the feeble vargur grid. its also not true, so whatever. edit: Alternate sarcastic response: they also said that about PG on the Raptor... Vote Goumindong for CSM
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:42:00 - [59] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nathanial Victor So if they upped the powergrid on the vargur, it would be too powerful for PVP? well, that WAS the reason CCP gave about the feeble vargur grid. Increasing the grid by 1500 may result in 8% more DPS from AC based vargur. It would have almost no PvP impact on artillery fitted vargur. Increasing grid by 4000 could make it the prefered sniper boat, but 1500 wouldn't be enough
Orvy	Posted - 2008.03.31 19:24:00 - [60] I have a faction fitted Vargur. With 3% PG implant, one faction PDS and 2 tech II PDS i managed to fit 1200mm arties. Overall i find ship's performance quite good, but then again I can not compare it to other races' marauders since I can only fly matari ships. Its amazingly tight to fit even with maxed out fitting skills, there should definetely be a revision of the amount of PG this ship has. As it currently stands, normally you would need long range weapons for missions unless you want some extra adrenaline. Not giving Vargur an ability to fit arties, kills the purpose of the ship itself. Btw my setup is: 4x1200s, 2 salvagers, 1 tractor 1 Gist-B XL shield booster, 1 Inv.Field, 2xboost amps, 1 tracking comp, 1 AB 3xPDS, 2xGyro 2xCCC II Perma runs tank, with right ammo kills rats very quickly. Downside - the cost of the setup. ______________________________________________ Fighting for perfection of sweets recepies
Jennae	Posted - 2008.04.01 03:12:00 - [61] for some reason I read this in the "Red wizard needs food badly!" "Vargur needs grid badly!"
Gypsio III	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:15:00 - [62] I have no experience with this ship whatsoever (or with any Marauder for that matter, and not much with missions either), but I'm going to wade on in anyway. This fits: 4x 1200 IIs 100 MN AB II DG LSB II (easier on grid than T2) 2x SBA II 2x hardener IIs Suitcase II TS RCU 3x Gyro II CCC rigs 3% PG implant Is that a viable fit? You still have to use a couple of (cheapish) bits of faction kit and an implant though.
Banjo String	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:27:00 - [63] Vargur Needs Power Badly! sry. gauntlet popped into my head on readng the title.
Jeetah Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:02:00 - [64] the one above is a viable fit, although i don't know why would anybody use it, since it has the same dps, and worse tank than a much cheaper maelstrom, which is stil lightyears away from a raven in terms of mission running.
Thercon Jair InQuest Ascension	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:13:00 - [65] Originally by: Grimpak vargur problem: grid differences between AC's and howies is pretty much broken, when comparing blasters with rails and pulses with beams. this means that simply increasing the grid on the vargur would give way to setups that would be probably considered overpowered or near it, since it would be very easy to fit 800mm's, full tank and gank and neuts/nosfs in high with no kind of fitting mods whatsoever, something that I believe that even the other 3 marauders have a hard time to do. so the problem is not the vargur itself, but the gun fitting requirements. Well, the grid differences between those weapons are there for a purpose. Ever noticed that you're not going to fit an armour tank when fitting artilleries? There's also the difference in grid requirement for shield boosters and armour repairers. So, arties require a shieldtank (if you want to tank at all) and ACs can fit an armour tank while leaving the meds free for EW. It's supposed to be that way, don't change it. Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!
Shofix Umgeh Collective League of Inventors and Traders	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:21:00 - [66] Yes - so Arties are supposed to be used with Shield Tanks you say... show me a fit that allows Arties to be fit with an X-Large booster and doesn't require multiple rigs + fitting mods in order to squeeze it on. The Large shield booster setup is pretty LOL - given that you can use them effectively on a Nighthawk with no problems. As has been pointed out - the ship isn't as good for PVE as a Raven or even a Maelstrom and it's clearly not a strong PVP boat, so remind me - what's its role exactly ?
Thercon Jair InQuest Ascension	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:48:00 - [67] Originally by: Shofix Umgeh Yes - so Arties are supposed to be used with Shield Tanks you say... show me a fit that allows Arties to be fit with an X-Large booster and doesn't require multiple rigs + fitting mods in order to squeeze it on. The Large shield booster setup is pretty LOL - given that you can use them effectively on a Nighthawk with no problems. As has been pointed out - the ship isn't as good for PVE as a Raven or even a Maelstrom and it's clearly not a strong PVP boat, so remind me - what's its role exactly ? No, that wasn't a post to justify the vargur's problem. I simply pointed out that the grid differences between ACs and Arties was implemented on purpose, together with the fact that we can have both shield or armour tanks. There's nothing wrong with the fitting requirements of ACs and Arties, but there is something wrong with the vargur Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!
Shofix Umgeh Collective League of Inventors and Traders	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:50:00 - [68] Originally by: Thercon Jair No, that wasn't a post to justify the vargur's problem. I simply pointed out that the grid differences between ACs and Arties was implemented on purpose, together with the fact that we can have both shield or armour tanks. There's nothing wrong with the fitting requirements of ACs and Arties, but there is something wrong with the vargur /me buys the next round.
Thercon Jair InQuest Ascension	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Shofix Umgeh Originally by: Thercon Jair No, that wasn't a post to justify the vargur's problem. I simply pointed out that the grid differences between ACs and Arties was implemented on purpose, together with the fact that we can have both shield or armour tanks. There's nothing wrong with the fitting requirements of ACs and Arties, but there is something wrong with the vargur /me buys the next round. /me drinks the next round Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!
Shofix Umgeh Collective League of Inventors and Traders	Posted - 2008.04.02 20:54:00 - [70] Wait - we should start a fight - no thread gets any love unless there's a good fight going on. Right, I'll start - despite agreeing with everything that's been said about the Vargur being a piece of junk, you're all wrong, because... <insert random reason here>...
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:37:00 - [71] Originally by: Shofix Umgeh you're all wrong, because... <insert random reason here>... Oh yeah? <insert straw man and/or personal attack here>
Sokratesz	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:47:00 - [72] Retort! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Lisento Slaven	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:54:00 - [73] Does anyone use the Vargur with autocannons? 50% bonus to falloff seems like it would be cool or does the meager cost of ammo for missions rack up too fast? --- Put in space whales! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Ecky X	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:05:00 - [74] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Does anyone use the Vargur with autocannons? 50% bonus to falloff seems like it would be cool or does the meager cost of ammo for missions rack up too fast? Seems to me the real reason is that it does less DPS at half the range of other Marauders, rather than ammo costs. The range problem would be fixed if it could fit artillery, but then it would do even less damage.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:32:00 - [75] Aye it would be useful with AC's if it got a double damage bonus. Right now it's plain crap, DPS wise. Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Slide Butcherblock Mining and Manufacturing	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:37:00 - [76] Edited by: Slide on 03/04/2008 18:40:10 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Does anyone use the Vargur with autocannons? 50% bonus to falloff seems like it would be cool or does the meager cost of ammo for missions rack up too fast? I used this ship a few months with 1400 artillery, it performed nice but since i felt my Maelstrom performed evenly well i changed it into a AC ship. It works nice in Angel missions ( no need of a AB because they will come to you anyhow), but if you warp into a mission where most ships are at 75km+/- you loose alot of time or dps. While the extra falloff seems nice at the max falloff range (6+52km) i do only 50% dps. I use alot of time catching ships into a nice range to do the full amount of dps, even with a AB fitted. Now i do missions in my Maelstrom again and whenever i have a Angel mission i get the Vargur. If i knew back then what i know now i would have never bothered training for that ship let alone pay 750 million for it.
Guillame Herschel The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:07:00 - [77] Would you feel bad if I told you my level 4 inventor toon (PE4 at the time, too) invented and built a Vargur for only about 525 mil? It's a neat idea, ACs in missions, but needs more falloff. Double the falloff bonus and it'll be fine. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:13:00 - [78] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Would you feel bad if I told you my level 4 inventor toon (PE4 at the time, too) invented and built a Vargur for only about 525 mil? It's a neat idea, ACs in missions, but needs more falloff. Double the falloff bonus and it'll be fine. Let me know when that comes down in price closer to a Maelstrom. =) (and yes i understand the cost of datacore, decryptors, bpc's, T2 materials, POS fuel etc).

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