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Large shield Extender II vs 1600mm Steel Plate II

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Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:39:00 - [1] What's the reasoning behind: Large large f-s9 regolith shield induction: 2,250 HP - 150PG 34CPU Large Shield Extender II: 2,625 HP - 165PG 46CPU VS 1600mm reinforced rolled tungsten plates I: 4,200 HP - 500PG 28CPU 1600mm reinforced steel plates II: 4,200 HP - 575PG 33CPU It's clear that in the Shield extenders there's an improvment from T1 to T2. But why is there a negative effect from the TI to T2 version of the armor plates? I know there is more choice of the size of the plates then there is with shield extenders, but to me it still seems imbalanced still. There some obvious fact or something I am missing? Or is it really that the T2 plates are that horrible and pointless? Discuss and flame away plz
Doc Fury Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:40:00 - [2] It's a trap.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:41:00 - [3] yes they are pretty pointless except they are cheaper also it goes same for tech 2 ecm/damps ect the tech 2 modules are worse than best named. This is only thing that actually keeps normal npc's loot worth something everything else is prety much just scrap. Join The Fight With Promo Today View The North Star!
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:42:00 - [4] Originally by: Doc Fury It's a trap. you mean "It's a tarp"
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:42:00 - [5] Odd isn't it? My head hurts from trying to figure it out again ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:44:00 - [6] Quote: There some obvious fact or something I am missing? Or is it really that the T2 plates are that horrible and pointless? It's just one of those things... sometimes, Meta Level 4 is better than Meta Level 5 (aka T2). Just look at Fleeting web vs. T2 web. The fleeting gets the same 90% speed reduction as the T2 web, but it's much easier on CPU required, making it the more efficient choice. All I can say is keep your eyes open and compare the attributes of modules before fitting 'em so you don't get trapped by the bright yellow, shiny II tab at the corner of the item's icon. Because as the guy before me said... It's a trap.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:45:00 - [7] Edited by: Grendell on 25/03/2008 05:47:00 hehe alright so it really is pointless, just wanted to make sure it wasn't something I was just completely missing. so it's settled they are usless traps
Doc Fury Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:45:00 - [8] Edited by: Doc Fury on 25/03/2008 05:46:26 Originally by: Malken Originally by: Doc Fury It's a trap. you mean "It's a tarp" ...it's a tarp, a cloth used by painters...
F'nog Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.03.25 08:03:00 - [9] Delving into CCP's logic leads only to madness. It's best left alone. But I agree with you. Chewbacca doesn't live on Endor. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Tob Seayours Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.25 08:27:00 - [10] Yes he does. He moved there quite recently. Feasting on the Endorian crumpets with tea.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.03.25 09:48:00 - [11] Originally by: sableye yes they are pretty pointless except they are cheaper They don't appear to be... 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II I thought maybe the mass added would be better on the T2 but nope, 1mil more there. So that leaves maybe availability or how easy they are to get as maybe an advantage... Nope, looking at eve central they're about the same in that category. Yeah, I think I'm going to go with the "it's a trap" analysis as well. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.25 09:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 25/03/2008 10:03:41 also: RT Mass Addition: 2,750,000 T2 Mass Addition: 3,750,000 That has a noticable affect on ships, particually BCs, fitted with MWDs. IRRC the difference is 50ms or so on a Harby and over a second of alignment time. ...
Fenren U.P.I.	Posted - 2008.03.25 10:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 25/03/2008 10:03:41 also: RT Mass Addition: 2,750,000 T2 Mass Addition: 3,750,000 That has a noticable affect on ships, particually BCs, fitted with MWDs. IRRC the difference is 50ms or so on a Harby and over a second of alignment time. and how do you get them? if you are far from a mission hub or so it might be easier to make the t2 than to get best named plates
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.25 11:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Fenren and how do you get them? if you are far from a mission hub or so it might be easier to make the t2 than to get best named plates I think you never produced t2 items. And repeating same crap all the time wont make producing t2 items in 0.0 much easier. T2 items REQUIRE t2 components which are EASIEST to get in highsec. They also usually REQUIRE trade goods which are found mostly in EMPIRE and CAN NOT be produced in player controlled 0.0 space. So it is MUCH EASIER just to carrier in/move by ceptor(cloaker) a bunch of ready 1600mm plates rather than moving all components needed to produce t2 ones. Also getting 1600mm RT plates this way is FASTER than producing em on the spot (check build times too ya know?). All in all t2 plates are useless.
Wet Ferret Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.25 13:22:00 - [15] Yeah this is crazy. The f-s9 regolith extenders should be 2,625 shield points to be fair. You forgot to mention the added sig radius penalty on the T2 extenders btw Always nice to take more damage by adding more tank!
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.25 13:25:00 - [16] That's a bit odd... I can understand the T2 guns being better than even faction in some cases (because they get a bonus per level). Perhaps a skill could be introduced for other T2 stuff to make it better? Given the work needed to get to that stage. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.25 13:38:00 - [17] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban That's a bit odd... I can understand the T2 guns being better than even faction in some cases (because they get a bonus per level). Perhaps a skill could be introduced for other T2 stuff to make it better? Given the work needed to get to that stage. Yes a good point. But more skills? plates, neutrs, TD's, RSD's to just name a few, t2 are worse than their best named, and that is just stupid.
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.03.25 14:10:00 - [18] Where does it say that "T2 has to be better than Meta 4 items" or "Meta 4 items have to be on par with T2" or "There has to be a uniform progression from meta 4 to T2 items across the board"? MAYBE the logic behind it all was that there isn't supposed to be an easy system of fitting, so that if you want the optimal build i terms of price&performance you'd really have to get into the system and have a firm knowledge about the price and performance of each item? For one thing it leads to a more interesting market where the access to the Match grade items aren't from a single source or profession. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.25 14:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Where does it say that "T2 has to be better than Meta 4 items" or "Meta 4 items have to be on par with T2" or "There has to be a uniform progression from meta 4 to T2 items across the board"? MAYBE the logic behind it all was that there isn't supposed to be an easy system of fitting, so that if you want the optimal build i terms of price&performance you'd really have to get into the system and have a firm knowledge about the price and performance of each item? For one thing it leads to a more interesting market where the access to the Match grade items aren't from a single source or profession. Yeah, I can understand that, but spending a significant amount of time training skills to use T2 should have some benefits over T1 modules. Currently that works with guns because you need to have specialisations to use T2 weapons, and the bonuses only affect T2 weapons, so you can be better than best named, or in some cases as good as faction. Other modules that are T2 are sometimes drastically worse than their best named counterparts, giving no bonus what-so-ever for the time you've spent training to get them. By adding specialisations, you can grant the T2 items better bonuses. The downside is that all T2 items would require specialisations, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - again cementing the fact that if you spend alot of time training to get somewhere, you want it to be worth it. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.03.25 14:24:00 - [20] this cake is a lie ... Waiting for the patch that patches the last patch ...
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.03.25 14:40:00 - [21] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Yeah, I can understand that, but spending a significant amount of time training skills to use T2 should have some benefits over T1 modules. Que? The problem with that reasoning is that in the categories where the T2 items are crap you should generally train that skill to the level that the T2 item requires anyway. Even if there was no such thing as T2 gear I would still have trained Hull Upgrades V because it gives you +5% armor! Even if there was no such thing as T2 gear I would still have trained Electronic warfare IV because it reduces the cap need for ECM jammers by 5% and is required for Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing etc etc In the cases where the skill itself is crap (such as Energy grid upgrades V) the T2 module gives you significant advantages. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.25 14:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Yeah, I can understand that, but spending a significant amount of time training skills to use T2 should have some benefits over T1 modules. Que? The problem with that reasoning is that in the categories where the T2 items are crap you should generally train that skill to the level that the T2 item requires anyway. Even if there was no such thing as T2 gear I would still have trained Hull Upgrades V because it gives you +5% armor! Even if there was no such thing as T2 gear I would still have trained Electronic warfare IV because it reduces the cap need for ECM jammers by 5% and is required for Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing etc etc In the cases where the skill itself is crap (such as Energy grid upgrades V) the T2 module gives you significant advantages. Yes, but those benefits affect all modules. Most T2 modules currently get the same bonuses as best named - so if best named is better than T2, it'll still be better when you train to get T2, which you pointed out for me. Whereas with guns, you train to get T2, and the benefits from the skill needed for T2 only affect T2, not best named. In that case, T2 + T2 bonuses + T1 bonuses > best named + T1 bonuses. Ergo, T2 is better than best named. It's really quite simple to understand. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.25 17:44:00 - [23] I think there is clearly a problem with the tech II plates. There is simply no reason for a tech II item to exist that is not better than the meta 4 in at least one category. Typically tech II items have a higher primary bonus, compensated for by higher fitting costs, steeper skill requirements, and increased drawbacks compared to the meta IV modules.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 17:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Grendell What's the reasoning behind: Large large f-s9 regolith shield induction: 2,250 HP - 150PG 34CPU Large Shield Extender II: 2,625 HP - 165PG 46CPU VS 1600mm reinforced rolled tungsten plates I: 4,200 HP - 500PG 28CPU 1600mm reinforced steel plates II: 4,200 HP - 575PG 33CPU It's clear that in the Shield extenders there's an improvment from T1 to T2. But why is there a negative effect from the TI to T2 version of the armor plates? I know there is more choice of the size of the plates then there is with shield extenders, but to me it still seems imbalanced still. There some obvious fact or something I am missing? Or is it really that the T2 plates are that horrible and pointless? Discuss and flame away plz My understanding is that at some point T2 160mm plates were in fact better than Rolled Tungsten but then there was a nerf or rebalance or something. . . I think the only benefit remaining as that the t2 plate can be produced by players and as such is relatively cheap..
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.25 17:50:00 - [25] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Yeah, I can understand that, but spending a significant amount of time training skills to use *T2 should have some* benefits over T1 modules**. Currently that works with guns because you need to have specialisations to use T2 weapons, and the bonuses only affect T2 weapons, so you can be better than best named, or in some cases as good as faction. Other modules that are T2 are sometimes drastically worse than their best named counterparts, giving no bonus what-so-ever for the time you've spent training to get them. By adding specialisations, you can grant the T2 items better bonuses. The downside is that all T2 items would require specialisations, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - again cementing the fact that if you spend alot of time training to get somewhere, you want it to be worth it. the benifit of t2 modules over best named t1 modules is that they can be producted. This mans that the supply of these items is usually far greater than that of the best named. Just take a look at a few of them. The Rens prices for 650mm Scout (best named) arty is around 4 mil each. The t2 is around 1.5 mil. You know why, I hope.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.25 18:06:00 - [26] Simple solution: Make F-S9 Regolith Shield Extender as good as tech II shield extender with lowered fitting costs. There, now they follow the armor plating logic. You can't manufacture named items so ofc F-S9's would become more expensive. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.25 18:06:00 - [27] Originally by: Annowyn Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Yeah, I can understand that, but spending a significant amount of time training skills to use *T2 should have some* benefits over T1 modules*. Currently that works with guns because you need to have specialisations to use T2 weapons, and the bonuses only affect T2 weapons, so you can be better than best named, or in some cases as good as faction. Other modules that are T2 are sometimes drastically worse than their best named counterparts, giving no bonus what-so-ever for the time you've spent training to get them. By adding specialisations, you can grant the T2 items better bonuses. The downside is that all T2 items would require specialisations, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - again cementing the fact that if you spend alot of time training to get somewhere, you want it to be worth it. the benifit of t2 modules over best named t1 modules is that they can be producted. This mans that the supply of these items is usually far greater than that of the best named. Just take a look at a few of them. The Rens prices for 650mm Scout (best named) arty is around 4 mil each. The t2 is around 1.5 mil. You know why, I hope. Because they suck in every way compared to the readily available best named, and only noobs buy them? Seriously, I'm not one of those "T2 has to be uber" people, but plates are one of a few T2 module groups that have always been screwy. * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.25 18:14:00 - [28] Quote: the benifit of t2 modules over best named t1 modules is that they can be producted. It doesn't matter if it can be produced if the module is complete crap in the first place. TII modules are often better than meta 4 items in one area, worse in another, take steeper fittings, and require more skills. It works pretty well, there are multiple different criteria where one module could be preferable to another. Price is not a very good metric since it changes greatly. There is absolutely nothing in the db that says meta4 guns must cost this much compared to tech II guns costing this much.
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.25 18:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: the benifit of t2 modules over best named t1 modules is that they can be producted. It doesn't matter if it can be produced if the module is complete crap in the first place. TII modules are often better than meta 4 items in one area, worse in another, take steeper fittings, and require more skills. It works pretty well, there are multiple different criteria where one module could be preferable to another. Price is not a very good metric since it changes greatly. There is absolutely nothing in the db that says meta4 guns must cost this much compared to tech II guns costing this much. You're right, but you missed my point, or failed to acknowledge it.
Odium47 W33D Corp. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 18:49:00 - [30] Almost nobody use 1600 t2 like almost nobody use regolith... So what is the point here ?

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