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The useless Ishtar bonus...solutions!!!

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arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:36:00 - [1] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 02:40:38 Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 02:38:23 Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 02:37:42 The Case The ishtar has one bonus, the 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret Damage per gallente cruiser level, that is impossible to utilize without gimping the rest of the setup seriously (Lvl 4-5 skills and different 3% cpu/speed/tank implants, so no eft warrioring). Dual Mar II - Small guns setup A T2 fitted dual mar/web/scram/mwd/injector version can even barely fit 3x Light Neutron II's and a 2x Small Nos/Neut without running out of cpu (need to have at least 2 faction hardener/eanm/iffa dcu). Dual Mar II - Medium guns setup With the same tanked setup, it can just fit 2x Electrons and then leaving 1 gunslot and 2 utility highs open. Again, no cpu. Nano - Small guns setup With a 'typical' T2 nano setup with large named capbattery/medium neut/mwd/shieldextenders you can only fit 3x 150mm Rail II's and again you have 1 empty highslot. Nano - Medium guns setup Same nanosetup, exept with a Medium Electrochem Capbooster instead of the Large Named Capbattery, you have a little bit more grid/cpu to play with. But even 'if' you can fit 3x Dual 150mm II's, you cap wont last since you only can take 5 cap 800's with you due to being nano'd. The Solutions How about swapping the useless bonus for... 1) ...5% Small Railgun Turret Damage per level (or small autocannon?) 2) ...5% Drone Max Velocity per level. 3) ...5% Drone Tracking/Optimal per level (should make it a good sentry boat!). 4) ...10% Drone Hitpoints per level (drones are too easy to destroy after the shield-scoop nerf, and certainly the nano ishtar can use it badly), 5) ...??????? Myself i would say a bonus like 2), 3) and 4) are perfectly in line with the ship, because it will in theory lower the Ishtar's damage (because you lose the 5% to Medium Railgun Turret Damage per level), but foremost they will utilize the ships main source of damage, named the drones. Its a droneboat after all... Let the discussion begin! *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Praxis1452 The Hoodie Mafia Cosa Nostra.	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:45:00 - [2] I've asked for a change from useless bonuses. "Ishtar is good enough" is what I got. -------------------------------------------- ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it"
Helios Hyperion Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:47:00 - [3] or keep the bonus as it is a cruiser ship, and make medium turrets *****ble. i think it's mostly a cpu issue.
Helios Hyperion Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:47:00 - [4] lol i wrote *****ble
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:48:00 - [5] The Ishtar is in no way a underpowered ship. There's really no ship in EVE that supports subsized guns, and I 'd like to see it stay that way. As for the drone bonuses, all of them will simply render the ship even stronger, which really isn't needed. The only reason to keep the bonus is that it will simply be to strong with anything else. Postcount: 386654
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:53:00 - [6] #2 or #3 IMO. #3 is probably too powerful if you look at the optimals on T2 sentries. #4 is probably too powerful. You could just ask for a fittings boost. It's going to really need it once the nano nerf hits. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Atius Tirawa Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:06:00 - [7] When/If the Ishtar cannot field its large drones. . .then maby these changes are needed - as it is, the gun bonus makes it a small Domi. I'd say as it is, the Ishtar is a perfectly fine ship and there are others that really need looking at more. For Gallente, I think a little touch to the Arazu/Lach/Celest line is really all that needs a whole lot of help. Of course, if it loses its 5 heavies, and nanos somehow make is not-nanoable. . .then maby, just maby its gonna need the changes. Thats my opinion. Of all the things for dedicated Gallente pilots to want changed in their lineup, I think the Ishtar ranks pretty low. Would you agree? -----------
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Liang Nuren #2 or #3 IMO. #3 is probably too powerful if you look at the optimals on T2 sentries. #4 is probably too powerful. You could just ask for a fittings boost. It's going to really need it once the nano nerf hits. -Liang A fittings boost might indeed be a good solution as well, but how about a combination between both? Even a armor resistance bonus, armor hp or armor rep amount bonus might ba good idea (!?), because it has almost no shield/armor/hull hp at all and getting into webrange is a likely death with this ship (i guess that after the upcoming nano-nerf everyone will go back to the already highly cap unstable & paper thin dual mar tanked version of the ishtar). Any thoughts on these matters? *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:19:00 - [9] The Ishtar was a powerful ship before Nanoing (and the non-nano fit is still powerful), it's a powerful ship if nanod, and even if Nanoing gets nerfed the Ishtar will still be a powerful ship. Mainly because of its drones, but also because there are so many ways to fit an Ishtar (heck, it's one of the few ships that lends itself equally well to both armor and shieldtanking. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel The Ishtar was a powerful ship before Nanoing (and the non-nano fit is still powerful), it's a powerful ship if nanod, and even if Nanoing gets nerfed the Ishtar will still be a powerful ship. Mainly because of its drones, but also because there are so many ways to fit an Ishtar (heck, it's one of the few ships that lends itself equally well to both armor and shieldtanking. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" You're mostly correct. However, many "recent advances" (read boosts) to other HACs have vastly changed the balance of HAC'dom. I'd say it's currently right behind the Sacrilege as far as HACs go. Once the nano nerf hits, it will definitely take a back seat behind many of the other HACs. It will retain some versatility that they lack, though, so it won't be that bad. I mean, the Muninn will probably still be worse than the Ishtar. =) I dunno, I see where he's coming from, because the bonus is near 100% useless with the current fittings on the Ishtar. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.

arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:50:00 - [11] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 03:50:37 Originally by: Liang Nuren I dunno, I see where he's coming from, because the bonus is near 100% useless with the current fittings on the Ishtar. -Liang Exactly. I guess the low fittings on the ishtar have to do something with Nosferatu's from before the Nos-nerf. Since nos isnt a vialbe overpowered possibility on this ship anymore, it can AT LEAST us a grid/cup buff. Especially since the only GOOD setup for it is a nano setup, and since the devs said they gonna balance nano (read: narfff), it loses that good setup. Even the Vexor and the Domi can use (at least) some of the size guns the particular ship has a bonus for, while it is indeed 100% impossible to do that on the Ishtar. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
AKULA UrQuan STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:02:00 - [12] +5% to nanofiber effectiveness per level? No, that was not serious. Anyway, With the resistances the ishtar can get a single MAR II should do the trick.....or did warping out when called primary go out of style?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 08:45:00 - [13] Well, the other HAC boosts (at least for Zealot and Eagle) were not all that substantial, seeing how they got a 5th turret slot but no fitting to really utilize it. In the HAC world as I see it currently, Sac and Ishtar are both on par behind the nanoking. And the second best HAC really does not need another boost imho. And nanonerf won't change all that much for the Ishtar either, though I guess if it happens, a small PG boost might be okay without overpowering it. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Randgris Empirius Enigmus Navy Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 09:52:00 - [14] Originally by: NoNah The Ishtar is in no way a underpowered ship. There's really no ship in EVE that supports subsized guns, and I 'd like to see it stay that way. that's not true, e.g. the cerberus and sacrilege gets bonuses which counts for all missile launchers, even smaller/bigger ones. drone ships have bonuses which you could interpret as subsized weapon bonus. only pure turret ships get the shaft here, no bonuses for subsized turrets :D but ontopic, the ishtar bonuses are fine. although i'd like to see more fitting options on it so i can fit a plate or a decent tank :D ------------------------------------------ Yes I know how my face looks like :D
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 09:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well, the other HAC boosts (at least for Zealot and Eagle) were not all that substantial, seeing how they got a 5th turret slot but no fitting to really utilize it. True, but at least both the zealot and eagle can fit the 5th/6th gun just by downgrading the guns (and thats not even nessecairy, especially for the zealot who does great with a plated/semi nano setup and HP II's). The ishtar on the other hand cant even fit more than 2 of the best named electron blasters without throwing on faction gear and also leaving the 3 other highslots unused. It is, in any way, completely impossible due to grid and cpu limitations to make use of the bonus, something you cant say about the eagle or zealot. Originally by: Leandro Salazar a small PG boost might be okay without overpowering it. The problem isnt only pg, its mostly cpu AND pg. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Justice Bringer Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.27 10:48:00 - [16] Originally by: arbalesttom Even the Vexor and the Domi can use (at least) some of the size guns the particular ship has a bonus for, while it is indeed 100% impossible to do that on the Ishtar (without having 2-3 unused highslots). Dude, I don't know what setups you use but I can fit a full electron II setup, or a full Dual 150 II setup both with all slots filled. Both of them use a single MAR II (True Sansha) with a full set of TS resistance mods. If the only setup you use is a nano fit no wonder you can't fit or carry anything else. Justice
Mangus Thermopyle Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.03.27 11:46:00 - [17] Ishtar could use a little more CPU, but other than that its fine. Its one of these ships that can support a wide range of setups (nano, armor tanking, shield tanking, passive shields like vaga, etc). But only noobs uses rails on ishtars though.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.03.27 11:59:00 - [18] never flown an ishtar, but I'd like a drone boat with sentry drone bonuses :-) Waiting for the patch that patches the last patch ...
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:02:00 - [19] I vote for a little more pg (maybe +50 or +75) and +25/30 cpu. Another +10% hp for the drones is silly. And yes i am a droneboat pilot also...
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:21:00 - [20] I proposed drone max velocity per level a while ago instead of the dmg bonus. Also, having a drone optimal or tracking bonus would make the ishtar overpowered? Lol, what neverneverland do you live in? Sniper ishtars are soooooo overpowered Boink!

Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Randgris Originally by: NoNah The Ishtar is in no way a underpowered ship. There's really no ship in EVE that supports subsized guns, and I 'd like to see it stay that way. that's not true, e.g. the cerberus and sacrilege gets bonuses which counts for all missile launchers, even smaller/bigger ones. drone ships have bonuses which you could interpret as subsized weapon bonus. only pure turret ships get the shaft here, no bonuses for subsized turrets :D but ontopic, the ishtar bonuses are fine. although i'd like to see more fitting options on it so i can fit a plate or a decent tank :D Dude, your face. But on a serious note the Ishtar is a bit gimped in the fitting stakes and that drone control range bonus, while nice for mission runners is otherwise useless. ------------
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren it won't be that bad. I mean, the Muninn will probably still be worse than the Ishtar. :(
Tiger Ash Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:52:00 - [23] yawn, another stupid whiner, the ishtar is the best nanoship so far, it doesnt need another bonus to make it even more powerful...
Trojanman190 The Conflagration New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:57:00 - [24] I've been flying this ship for awhile now and I am of the opinion that it isn't just fine, it's a little too good. I went from a vagabond to this ship, both ships are extremely good at certain things but the ishtar is certainly better at a lot more things. Vagabond: Pros 1. Really fast, can run from almost anything. 2. High em shield resists. 3. Turrets let it smoke interceptors. Cons, 1. you need to be within 20km and orbiting with mwd off to do even wet noodle level damage. 2. Minmatar t2 = crap armor tank. 3. Really only hood for the nanoing. Ishtar, with its crappy bonus. 1. Nanoing, not ultra fast but you only need to be fast enough. 2. 5 mids, fit like a vaga and have an injector / web. 3. at HAC 4 there is drone space for a flight of heavies, sentries, and lights. If you don't understand how important sentries are to this ship you have probably never screwed up and gotten into a 1 v 1 with a crow in an ishtar. Sentries make this laughable. Vagabond is screwed here. 4. Can be armor tanked like a monster due to explosive being the only resist hole. 5. One of, if not the best hac for lvl 4s. 6. I rat all the time in my ishtar pvp setup, the only safer way to rat is to have a fleet ready in the next system. 7. Get a buddy in an interceptor and experience some of the easiest, safest small scale pvp in the game. He points a target, you drop off the drones and fly out to 40km. So from 40km you are doing 500 dps and are completely safe. If a gang jumps in on you, big woop, you lose some drones, the 200mil polied ishtar gets away just fine. As fast as the vagabond is, a hugin can ruin your day in that situation. 7.1 Or just go it alone and use cap injectors to keep your speed about 3km while orbiting at 20, not much tracks you and missiles do significantly less damage, all the while you are doing 500+ dps. Can't hit at all at that speed. Cons: Slow for a nanoer. The ship isn't just 'good enough' its absolutely fantastic. Giving an ability that would actually be 'useful' in your opinion would make this ship quite overpowered. Drone speed would be rediculous, one of the ishtar's only vulnerabilities is its slow moving drones, making those buggers 50% faster is absolutely out of the question. Warrior IIs moving 50% faster will start overtaking rigged interceptors. Add a drone navigation comp to that and you are looking at warrior IIs moving almost 9km a second. All of a sudden this ship has lost a lot of its vulnerability to interceptors. Yes it has a useless bonus, but it really doesn't need a bonus there at all.
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:12:00 - [25] Jesus wept, OP hasnt a clue. He says the 5% damage bonus isnt any good as there are no medium gun fits - then posts a freaking medium gun fit! d150 II works fine on a nanoishtar, and electrons work GREAT on a 1600mm plate setup (yes, you posted two useless MAR setups when plated works better every time, if you dont want to nano for some reason). Its a gallente cruiser, it should have a medium hybrid damage bonus. When I read the thread title I was flabbergasted that he was talking about the medium hybrid bonus when the REAL useless bonus is the drone control range one. However, there isnt much point changing that, seeing as 1) the ishtar is perfectly balanced and fun to fly in PVP and 2) that would just **** off some pVe'rs for no reason? _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:21:00 - [26] Ok thanks for the usefull replies so far. I created this thread with the idea of getting some ideas rolling on changing the 100% useless bonus on the ishtar. Please... ...help thinking about the solutions i brought in. Are they overpowered? Do they need to be more balanced? Can they be a bit more tweaked? Please, be constructive! ...like Liang stated, when the nano nerf is going to hit Eve (once again), the ishtar (AND SOME OTHER HAC's) are going to lose there only good setup. I know there alot of other ships that need some love as well, but where talking about the ishtar in this thread. Again, every ishtar pilot can tell you it is 100% impossible to use the 5% Medium Rail bonus. Even though there are ships ingame who have worthless bonusses (targetpainting anyone), they can at least fit them if they want. The ishtar cannot utilize that bonus in any way possible, due to serious fitting issues. All i want to do is change a bonus that has been proven to be 100% (or verry close to) impossible to use, to something that the ishtar can use, and/or to buff the ships pg/cpu. To brainstorm on the 'how' and 'what' was the reason to created this thread. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Captain Sonata State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:24:00 - [27] You're kidding right? You want to make the Ishtar even more powerful?
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:29:00 - [28] Ishtar as well as Deimos need some changes indeed. For Ishtar the cpu is laughable and seriously gimp the ability to put on any drone rigs (which ironically have a penalty on the ship cpu). Not so much of a problem for the Powergrid. For Deimos the problem lies mainly on the ability to turn (agility) and speed (mass). Maybe these 2 attributes should be looked into for the Deimos. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Helios Hyperion Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:33:00 - [29] Dude, they just told you how to utilize the bonus, I think that nullifies its uselessness
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:34:00 - [30] Originally by: El Yatta Dual150 II works fine on a nanoishtar, and electrons work GREAT on a 1600mm plate setup I hope you realize that even with a plate setup, your better off using Light Neutrons II/150mm Rail II's and still have comparable damage and 2 highslots you can use? Hell, even a mission setup domi can fit dual 250mm's/350mm's, the ishtar cannot use any of its bonussed guns with a similar mission setup. I know some of you are really going to disagree with me, but since its a droneboat, it really doesnt hurt (depends on wich bonus) to swap the rail bonus to another drone orientated bonus...without making the ship overpowered (losing the 2nd damage bonus for a drone related bonus? seems more like a nerf to me...). *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^



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