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The useless Ishtar bonus...solutions!!!

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arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:36:00 - [1] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 02:40:38 Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 02:38:23 Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 02:37:42 The Case The ishtar has one bonus, the 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret Damage per gallente cruiser level, that is impossible to utilize without gimping the rest of the setup seriously (Lvl 4-5 skills and different 3% cpu/speed/tank implants, so no eft warrioring). Dual Mar II - Small guns setup A T2 fitted dual mar/web/scram/mwd/injector version can even barely fit 3x Light Neutron II's and a 2x Small Nos/Neut without running out of cpu (need to have at least 2 faction hardener/eanm/iffa dcu). Dual Mar II - Medium guns setup With the same tanked setup, it can just fit 2x Electrons and then leaving 1 gunslot and 2 utility highs open. Again, no cpu. Nano - Small guns setup With a 'typical' T2 nano setup with large named capbattery/medium neut/mwd/shieldextenders you can only fit 3x 150mm Rail II's and again you have 1 empty highslot. Nano - Medium guns setup Same nanosetup, exept with a Medium Electrochem Capbooster instead of the Large Named Capbattery, you have a little bit more grid/cpu to play with. But even 'if' you can fit 3x Dual 150mm II's, you cap wont last since you only can take 5 cap 800's with you due to being nano'd. The Solutions How about swapping the useless bonus for... 1) ...5% Small Railgun Turret Damage per level (or small autocannon?) 2) ...5% Drone Max Velocity per level. 3) ...5% Drone Tracking/Optimal per level (should make it a good sentry boat!). 4) ...10% Drone Hitpoints per level (drones are too easy to destroy after the shield-scoop nerf, and certainly the nano ishtar can use it badly), 5) ...??????? Myself i would say a bonus like 2), 3) and 4) are perfectly in line with the ship, because it will in theory lower the Ishtar's damage (because you lose the 5% to Medium Railgun Turret Damage per level), but foremost they will utilize the ships main source of damage, named the drones. Its a droneboat after all... Let the discussion begin! *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Praxis1452 The Hoodie Mafia Cosa Nostra.	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:45:00 - [2] I've asked for a change from useless bonuses. "Ishtar is good enough" is what I got. -------------------------------------------- ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it"
Helios Hyperion Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:47:00 - [3] or keep the bonus as it is a cruiser ship, and make medium turrets *****ble. i think it's mostly a cpu issue.
Helios Hyperion Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:47:00 - [4] lol i wrote *****ble
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:48:00 - [5] The Ishtar is in no way a underpowered ship. There's really no ship in EVE that supports subsized guns, and I 'd like to see it stay that way. As for the drone bonuses, all of them will simply render the ship even stronger, which really isn't needed. The only reason to keep the bonus is that it will simply be to strong with anything else. Postcount: 386654
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:53:00 - [6] #2 or #3 IMO. #3 is probably too powerful if you look at the optimals on T2 sentries. #4 is probably too powerful. You could just ask for a fittings boost. It's going to really need it once the nano nerf hits. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Atius Tirawa Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:06:00 - [7] When/If the Ishtar cannot field its large drones. . .then maby these changes are needed - as it is, the gun bonus makes it a small Domi. I'd say as it is, the Ishtar is a perfectly fine ship and there are others that really need looking at more. For Gallente, I think a little touch to the Arazu/Lach/Celest line is really all that needs a whole lot of help. Of course, if it loses its 5 heavies, and nanos somehow make is not-nanoable. . .then maby, just maby its gonna need the changes. Thats my opinion. Of all the things for dedicated Gallente pilots to want changed in their lineup, I think the Ishtar ranks pretty low. Would you agree? -----------
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Liang Nuren #2 or #3 IMO. #3 is probably too powerful if you look at the optimals on T2 sentries. #4 is probably too powerful. You could just ask for a fittings boost. It's going to really need it once the nano nerf hits. -Liang A fittings boost might indeed be a good solution as well, but how about a combination between both? Even a armor resistance bonus, armor hp or armor rep amount bonus might ba good idea (!?), because it has almost no shield/armor/hull hp at all and getting into webrange is a likely death with this ship (i guess that after the upcoming nano-nerf everyone will go back to the already highly cap unstable & paper thin dual mar tanked version of the ishtar). Any thoughts on these matters? *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:19:00 - [9] The Ishtar was a powerful ship before Nanoing (and the non-nano fit is still powerful), it's a powerful ship if nanod, and even if Nanoing gets nerfed the Ishtar will still be a powerful ship. Mainly because of its drones, but also because there are so many ways to fit an Ishtar (heck, it's one of the few ships that lends itself equally well to both armor and shieldtanking. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel The Ishtar was a powerful ship before Nanoing (and the non-nano fit is still powerful), it's a powerful ship if nanod, and even if Nanoing gets nerfed the Ishtar will still be a powerful ship. Mainly because of its drones, but also because there are so many ways to fit an Ishtar (heck, it's one of the few ships that lends itself equally well to both armor and shieldtanking. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" You're mostly correct. However, many "recent advances" (read boosts) to other HACs have vastly changed the balance of HAC'dom. I'd say it's currently right behind the Sacrilege as far as HACs go. Once the nano nerf hits, it will definitely take a back seat behind many of the other HACs. It will retain some versatility that they lack, though, so it won't be that bad. I mean, the Muninn will probably still be worse than the Ishtar. =) I dunno, I see where he's coming from, because the bonus is near 100% useless with the current fittings on the Ishtar. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.

arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:50:00 - [11] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 03:50:37 Originally by: Liang Nuren I dunno, I see where he's coming from, because the bonus is near 100% useless with the current fittings on the Ishtar. -Liang Exactly. I guess the low fittings on the ishtar have to do something with Nosferatu's from before the Nos-nerf. Since nos isnt a vialbe overpowered possibility on this ship anymore, it can AT LEAST us a grid/cup buff. Especially since the only GOOD setup for it is a nano setup, and since the devs said they gonna balance nano (read: narfff), it loses that good setup. Even the Vexor and the Domi can use (at least) some of the size guns the particular ship has a bonus for, while it is indeed 100% impossible to do that on the Ishtar. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
AKULA UrQuan STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:02:00 - [12] +5% to nanofiber effectiveness per level? No, that was not serious. Anyway, With the resistances the ishtar can get a single MAR II should do the trick.....or did warping out when called primary go out of style?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 08:45:00 - [13] Well, the other HAC boosts (at least for Zealot and Eagle) were not all that substantial, seeing how they got a 5th turret slot but no fitting to really utilize it. In the HAC world as I see it currently, Sac and Ishtar are both on par behind the nanoking. And the second best HAC really does not need another boost imho. And nanonerf won't change all that much for the Ishtar either, though I guess if it happens, a small PG boost might be okay without overpowering it. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Randgris Empirius Enigmus Navy Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 09:52:00 - [14] Originally by: NoNah The Ishtar is in no way a underpowered ship. There's really no ship in EVE that supports subsized guns, and I 'd like to see it stay that way. that's not true, e.g. the cerberus and sacrilege gets bonuses which counts for all missile launchers, even smaller/bigger ones. drone ships have bonuses which you could interpret as subsized weapon bonus. only pure turret ships get the shaft here, no bonuses for subsized turrets :D but ontopic, the ishtar bonuses are fine. although i'd like to see more fitting options on it so i can fit a plate or a decent tank :D ------------------------------------------ Yes I know how my face looks like :D
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 09:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well, the other HAC boosts (at least for Zealot and Eagle) were not all that substantial, seeing how they got a 5th turret slot but no fitting to really utilize it. True, but at least both the zealot and eagle can fit the 5th/6th gun just by downgrading the guns (and thats not even nessecairy, especially for the zealot who does great with a plated/semi nano setup and HP II's). The ishtar on the other hand cant even fit more than 2 of the best named electron blasters without throwing on faction gear and also leaving the 3 other highslots unused. It is, in any way, completely impossible due to grid and cpu limitations to make use of the bonus, something you cant say about the eagle or zealot. Originally by: Leandro Salazar a small PG boost might be okay without overpowering it. The problem isnt only pg, its mostly cpu AND pg. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Justice Bringer Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.27 10:48:00 - [16] Originally by: arbalesttom Even the Vexor and the Domi can use (at least) some of the size guns the particular ship has a bonus for, while it is indeed 100% impossible to do that on the Ishtar (without having 2-3 unused highslots). Dude, I don't know what setups you use but I can fit a full electron II setup, or a full Dual 150 II setup both with all slots filled. Both of them use a single MAR II (True Sansha) with a full set of TS resistance mods. If the only setup you use is a nano fit no wonder you can't fit or carry anything else. Justice
Mangus Thermopyle Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.03.27 11:46:00 - [17] Ishtar could use a little more CPU, but other than that its fine. Its one of these ships that can support a wide range of setups (nano, armor tanking, shield tanking, passive shields like vaga, etc). But only noobs uses rails on ishtars though.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.03.27 11:59:00 - [18] never flown an ishtar, but I'd like a drone boat with sentry drone bonuses :-) Waiting for the patch that patches the last patch ...
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:02:00 - [19] I vote for a little more pg (maybe +50 or +75) and +25/30 cpu. Another +10% hp for the drones is silly. And yes i am a droneboat pilot also...
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:21:00 - [20] I proposed drone max velocity per level a while ago instead of the dmg bonus. Also, having a drone optimal or tracking bonus would make the ishtar overpowered? Lol, what neverneverland do you live in? Sniper ishtars are soooooo overpowered Boink!

Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Randgris Originally by: NoNah The Ishtar is in no way a underpowered ship. There's really no ship in EVE that supports subsized guns, and I 'd like to see it stay that way. that's not true, e.g. the cerberus and sacrilege gets bonuses which counts for all missile launchers, even smaller/bigger ones. drone ships have bonuses which you could interpret as subsized weapon bonus. only pure turret ships get the shaft here, no bonuses for subsized turrets :D but ontopic, the ishtar bonuses are fine. although i'd like to see more fitting options on it so i can fit a plate or a decent tank :D Dude, your face. But on a serious note the Ishtar is a bit gimped in the fitting stakes and that drone control range bonus, while nice for mission runners is otherwise useless. ------------
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren it won't be that bad. I mean, the Muninn will probably still be worse than the Ishtar. :(
Tiger Ash Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:52:00 - [23] yawn, another stupid whiner, the ishtar is the best nanoship so far, it doesnt need another bonus to make it even more powerful...
Trojanman190 The Conflagration New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.03.27 12:57:00 - [24] I've been flying this ship for awhile now and I am of the opinion that it isn't just fine, it's a little too good. I went from a vagabond to this ship, both ships are extremely good at certain things but the ishtar is certainly better at a lot more things. Vagabond: Pros 1. Really fast, can run from almost anything. 2. High em shield resists. 3. Turrets let it smoke interceptors. Cons, 1. you need to be within 20km and orbiting with mwd off to do even wet noodle level damage. 2. Minmatar t2 = crap armor tank. 3. Really only hood for the nanoing. Ishtar, with its crappy bonus. 1. Nanoing, not ultra fast but you only need to be fast enough. 2. 5 mids, fit like a vaga and have an injector / web. 3. at HAC 4 there is drone space for a flight of heavies, sentries, and lights. If you don't understand how important sentries are to this ship you have probably never screwed up and gotten into a 1 v 1 with a crow in an ishtar. Sentries make this laughable. Vagabond is screwed here. 4. Can be armor tanked like a monster due to explosive being the only resist hole. 5. One of, if not the best hac for lvl 4s. 6. I rat all the time in my ishtar pvp setup, the only safer way to rat is to have a fleet ready in the next system. 7. Get a buddy in an interceptor and experience some of the easiest, safest small scale pvp in the game. He points a target, you drop off the drones and fly out to 40km. So from 40km you are doing 500 dps and are completely safe. If a gang jumps in on you, big woop, you lose some drones, the 200mil polied ishtar gets away just fine. As fast as the vagabond is, a hugin can ruin your day in that situation. 7.1 Or just go it alone and use cap injectors to keep your speed about 3km while orbiting at 20, not much tracks you and missiles do significantly less damage, all the while you are doing 500+ dps. Can't hit at all at that speed. Cons: Slow for a nanoer. The ship isn't just 'good enough' its absolutely fantastic. Giving an ability that would actually be 'useful' in your opinion would make this ship quite overpowered. Drone speed would be rediculous, one of the ishtar's only vulnerabilities is its slow moving drones, making those buggers 50% faster is absolutely out of the question. Warrior IIs moving 50% faster will start overtaking rigged interceptors. Add a drone navigation comp to that and you are looking at warrior IIs moving almost 9km a second. All of a sudden this ship has lost a lot of its vulnerability to interceptors. Yes it has a useless bonus, but it really doesn't need a bonus there at all.
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:12:00 - [25] Jesus wept, OP hasnt a clue. He says the 5% damage bonus isnt any good as there are no medium gun fits - then posts a freaking medium gun fit! d150 II works fine on a nanoishtar, and electrons work GREAT on a 1600mm plate setup (yes, you posted two useless MAR setups when plated works better every time, if you dont want to nano for some reason). Its a gallente cruiser, it should have a medium hybrid damage bonus. When I read the thread title I was flabbergasted that he was talking about the medium hybrid bonus when the REAL useless bonus is the drone control range one. However, there isnt much point changing that, seeing as 1) the ishtar is perfectly balanced and fun to fly in PVP and 2) that would just **** off some pVe'rs for no reason? _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:21:00 - [26] Ok thanks for the usefull replies so far. I created this thread with the idea of getting some ideas rolling on changing the 100% useless bonus on the ishtar. Please... ...help thinking about the solutions i brought in. Are they overpowered? Do they need to be more balanced? Can they be a bit more tweaked? Please, be constructive! ...like Liang stated, when the nano nerf is going to hit Eve (once again), the ishtar (AND SOME OTHER HAC's) are going to lose there only good setup. I know there alot of other ships that need some love as well, but where talking about the ishtar in this thread. Again, every ishtar pilot can tell you it is 100% impossible to use the 5% Medium Rail bonus. Even though there are ships ingame who have worthless bonusses (targetpainting anyone), they can at least fit them if they want. The ishtar cannot utilize that bonus in any way possible, due to serious fitting issues. All i want to do is change a bonus that has been proven to be 100% (or verry close to) impossible to use, to something that the ishtar can use, and/or to buff the ships pg/cpu. To brainstorm on the 'how' and 'what' was the reason to created this thread. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Captain Sonata State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:24:00 - [27] You're kidding right? You want to make the Ishtar even more powerful?
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:29:00 - [28] Ishtar as well as Deimos need some changes indeed. For Ishtar the cpu is laughable and seriously gimp the ability to put on any drone rigs (which ironically have a penalty on the ship cpu). Not so much of a problem for the Powergrid. For Deimos the problem lies mainly on the ability to turn (agility) and speed (mass). Maybe these 2 attributes should be looked into for the Deimos. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Helios Hyperion Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:33:00 - [29] Dude, they just told you how to utilize the bonus, I think that nullifies its uselessness
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:34:00 - [30] Originally by: El Yatta Dual150 II works fine on a nanoishtar, and electrons work GREAT on a 1600mm plate setup I hope you realize that even with a plate setup, your better off using Light Neutrons II/150mm Rail II's and still have comparable damage and 2 highslots you can use? Hell, even a mission setup domi can fit dual 250mm's/350mm's, the ishtar cannot use any of its bonussed guns with a similar mission setup. I know some of you are really going to disagree with me, but since its a droneboat, it really doesnt hurt (depends on wich bonus) to swap the rail bonus to another drone orientated bonus...without making the ship overpowered (losing the 2nd damage bonus for a drone related bonus? seems more like a nerf to me...). *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^

Zubakis Bambooule	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:46:00 - [31] Ishtar needs a massive CPU boost. Ever tried to fit some drone modules on it? Drone rigs have penalty on ships CPU. Drone Link Augmentor: 50cpu, lol? Omnidirectional Tracking Link: 35cpu Drone Navigation Computer: 30cpu And if you want to swap the hybrid bonus, i would take the option #3 and make it an awesome sentry boat. -- Zuba
Liu State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:53:00 - [32] i would like to see this: 1st, the drone bonuses are limited to medium drones (not only on ishtar, but also on myrm, vexor, curse, etc) 2nd, the hybrid bonus changed to either another drone bonus or a tank bonus Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:54:00 - [33] Originally by: Zubakis Ishtar needs a massive CPU boost. Ever tried to fit some drone modules on it? Drone rigs have penalty on ships CPU. Drone Link Augmentor: 50cpu, lol? Omnidirectional Tracking Link: 35cpu Drone Navigation Computer: 30cpu And if you want to swap the hybrid bonus, i would take the option #3 and make it an awesome sentry boat. This is true, the modules posted above are probably mostly used for mission setup ishtars. But again, due to cpu problems, you cant fit them. Even if you blow alot of faction stuff on the ship, it will still be pretty impossible to fit them. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Howling Jinn Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:54:00 - [34] omg hi! i just tried to fit a full neutron gank setup mega with dual reps! it didnt fit!! ccp ****** gallente royaly up the ass on this 1!!! nerf amarr! nerf caldari! nerf minmatar!!
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:56:00 - [35] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 15:03:11 Originally by: Howling Jinn omg hi! i just tried to fit a full neutron gank setup mega with dual reps! it didnt fit!! ccp **** gallente royaly up the ass on this 1!!! nerf amarr! nerf caldari! nerf minmatar!! Neutron and dual rep a ganksetup? -1/10 derail attempt and 110% bull. ps: A plate/gank setup domi can actually 6x of its bonussed guns in the highslots, a ishtar with a similar setup 1600mmRT/hadeners/mwd/inj can do it (with 1-2 pg rig), but then again your better off using light neutrons since they give you comparable damage to heavy electons and also you dont need the fitting mods, AND you can use the 2 utility highslots... Sig Originally by:** Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 15:10:00 - [36] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/03/2008 15:12:41 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/03/2008 15:10:04 f u c k this piece of s h i t forum, it ate my 300 word post. basically the point was: -your ideas are good -ccp doesnt fix ships that have bonuses/fitting that dont make sense if the ship performs well already -they choose not to change anything, because if they would "fix" ships that are odd then they would have to nerf them slightly and then fix them from the core. It prolly wont happen. -same deal why with zealot and omen fittings, it doesnt make sense but still zealot is a good ship. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.27 15:33:00 - [37] Originally by: arbalesttom Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 15:03:11 Originally by: Howling Jinn omg hi! i just tried to fit a full neutron gank setup mega with dual reps! it didnt fit!! ccp **** gallente royaly up the ass on this 1!!! nerf amarr! nerf caldari! nerf minmatar!! Neutron and dual rep a ganksetup? -1/10 derail attempt and 110% bull**. ps: A plate/gank setup domi can actually 6x of its bonussed guns in the highslots, a ishtar with a similar setup 1600mmRT/hadeners/mwd/inj can do it (with 1-2 pg rig), but then again your better off using light neutrons since they give you comparable damage to heavy electons and also you dont need the fitting mods, AND you can use the 2 utility highslots... No. You are wrong. 3 heavy electorn IIs do about 180 DPS, 3 light neutron II do a pitiful 110. That is about a 40% DPS increase for the guns. Considering 5 ogres only do 475 or so, thats quite a nice overall difference. The ishtar ALSO uses medium guns in a speed fit because they can easily hit to WD II range, and they add around 100 DPS to the estup (around 20% overall, again, very nice). You'd have to be mental to lose the traditional gallente bonus that IS usable, to try and overpower a VERY BALANCED ship. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 15:38:00 - [38] Originally by: El Yatta Originally by: arbalesttom Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 15:03:11 Originally by: Howling Jinn omg hi! i just tried to fit a full neutron gank setup mega with dual reps! it didnt fit!! ccp **** gallente royaly up the ass on this 1!!! nerf amarr! nerf caldari! nerf minmatar!! Neutron and dual rep a ganksetup? -1/10 derail attempt and 110% bull. ps: A plate/gank setup domi can actually 6x of its bonussed guns in the highslots, a ishtar with a similar setup 1600mmRT/hadeners/mwd/inj can do it (with 1-2 pg rig), but then again your better off using light neutrons since they give you comparable damage to heavy electons and also you dont need the fitting mods, AND you can use the 2 utility highslots... No. You are wrong. 3 heavy electorn IIs do about 180 DPS, 3 light neutron II do a pitiful 110. That is about a 40% DPS increase for the guns. Considering 5 ogres only do 475 or so, thats quite a nice overall difference. The ishtar ALSO uses medium guns in a speed fit because they can easily hit to WD II range, and they add around 100 DPS to the estup (around 20% overall, again, very nice). You'd have to be mental to lose the traditional gallente bonus that IS usable, to try and overpower a VERY BALANCED ship. Give me a 3x Heavy Electron II setup wich fits and wich has at least 1x drone mod in the utility highslots. Also, no eft warrioring, all the comparisons i made where ingame with most fitting skills to 5 and awu 4 and a 3% cpu implant. Whatever you do, the cpu/grid is badly gimped on this ship. Sig Originally by:** Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 15:50:00 - [39] WTH is wrong with the forum ppl here ? Ishtar is one of the best HAC around, and you talk about .... SOLUTIONS (!?!?!?!) about it ? Strong freaking complaining and just fit medium turrets on the boat if you want to use all the bonus. It wont be the cookie cutter forum approved setup but you still can do it. Maybe we should swap the hybrid bonus on the Domi for a +1 drone control / lvl. Or ask for extra CPU to fit em turrets but can I log two weeks in a row and have the feeling of still playing the same game, please ?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 15:56:00 - [40] Originally by: Trevor Warps Ishtar is one of the best HAC around, and you talk about .... SOLUTIONS (!?!?!?!) about it ? Well, right now it's one of the best HAC's around. Once the nano nerf goes through, it won't be. I doubt it'll be useless, but it won't number in the top 4 HAC's. Also, claiming you can use your hybrid bonus if you fit a full faction setup is just a little over the top, mkay? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.

Garmon Genos Occidere Boner Bandits	Posted - 2008.03.27 15:58:00 - [41] Ishtar is a very strong HAC, to justify boosting it by giving it a more useful bonus should also mean that one of its aspects should be nerfed __________________________________ Garmonation - Rupture fun video
Liu State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:04:00 - [42] Originally by: Garmon Ishtar is a very strong HAC, to justify boosting it by giving it a more useful bonus should also mean that one of its aspects should be nerfed yep, like i said, limiting the drone bonus to medium drones. Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Propex AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:11:00 - [43] Edited by: Propex on 27/03/2008 16:13:51 Edited by: Propex on 27/03/2008 16:11:15 Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: El Yatta Originally by: arbalesttom Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 15:03:11 Originally by: Howling Jinn omg hi! i just tried to fit a full neutron gank setup mega with dual reps! it didnt fit!! ccp **** gallente royaly up the ass on this 1!!! nerf amarr! nerf caldari! nerf minmatar!! Neutron and dual rep a ganksetup? -1/10 derail attempt and 110% bull**. ps: A plate/gank setup domi can actually 6x of its bonussed guns in the highslots, a ishtar with a similar setup 1600mmRT/hadeners/mwd/inj can do it (with 1-2 pg rig), but then again your better off using light neutrons since they give you comparable damage to heavy electons and also you dont need the fitting mods, AND you can use the 2 utility highslots... No. You are wrong. 3 heavy electorn IIs do about 180 DPS, 3 light neutron II do a pitiful 110. That is about a 40% DPS increase for the guns. Considering 5 ogres only do 475 or so, thats quite a nice overall difference. The ishtar ALSO uses medium guns in a speed fit because they can easily hit to WD II range, and they add around 100 DPS to the estup (around 20% overall, again, very nice). You'd have to be mental to lose the traditional gallente bonus that IS usable, to try and overpower a VERY BALANCED ship. Give me a 3x Heavy Electron II setup wich fits and wich has at least 1x drone mod in the utility highslots. Also, no eft warrioring, all the comparisons i made where ingame with most fitting skills to 5 and awu 4 and a 3% cpu implant. Whatever you do, the cpu/grid is badly gimped on this ship. You asking for a drone mod in the high slot is just you being difficult. There is no reason to fit one in PvP unless you are in a gang, and if you are in a gang, and you REALLY want to send your drones out 72k-75k, here you go. 3x Heavy electrons Drone link augmentor Best named MWD x51 web Best named disrupter Omni-directional tracking link SeBo 2 800mm tungsten DCU2 EANM2 2x ANP 2 You don't even need an implant, AWU1, or WU5 to fit this. Forgo the useless high slot drone mod and you can fit ions.
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:11:00 - [44] Originally by: arbalesttom The Solutions How about swapping the useless bonus for... 1) ...5% Small Railgun Turret Damage per level (or small autocannon?) 2) ...5% Drone Max Velocity per level. 3) ...5% Drone Tracking/Optimal per level (should make it a good sentry boat!). 4) ...10% Drone Hitpoints per level (drones are too easy to destroy after the shield-scoop nerf, and certainly the nano ishtar can use it badly), 5) ...??????? Myself i would say a bonus like 2), 3) and 4) are perfectly in line with the ship, because it will in theory lower the Ishtar's damage (because you lose the 5% to Medium Railgun Turret Damage per level), but foremost they will utilize the ships main source of damage, named the drones. Its a droneboat after all... Let the discussion begin! I like 2), 3 or 4 are probabily too powerful. Or, you could give it an armor rep bonus, like what myrmidon has, which effectively exclude the nano ishtars from benefiting from it, and encourages active tank Ishtars... Some good points by OP.
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:14:00 - [45] BTW, did u know dominix and sin both have a hybird bonus too? That never really made much sense to me either. Kinda like giving raven a hybird bonus
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:18:00 - [46] Originally by: Propex You asking for a drone mod in the high slot is just you being difficult. There is no reason to fit one in PvP unless you are in a gang, and if you are in a gang, and you REALLY want to send your drones out 72k-75k, here you go. 3x Heavy electrons Drone link augmentor Best named MWD x51 web Best named disrupter Omni-directional tracking link SeBo 2 800mm tungsten DCU2 EANM2 2x ANP 2 You don't even need an implant, AWU1, or WU5 to fit this. Forgo the useless high slot drone mod and you can fit ions. Admit it, this setup is subpar at best, and yes its stupid you cant even fit the 2x highs decently. It is even better to use a 1x 1600mm RT 3x Light Neutron setup because it gives lots more defence at the expense of a bit less dps. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Propex AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:20:00 - [47] Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Propex You asking for a drone mod in the high slot is just you being difficult. There is no reason to fit one in PvP unless you are in a gang, and if you are in a gang, and you REALLY want to send your drones out 72k-75k, here you go. 3x Heavy electrons Drone link augmentor Best named MWD x51 web Best named disrupter Omni-directional tracking link SeBo 2 800mm tungsten DCU2 EANM2 2x ANP 2 You don't even need an implant, AWU1, or WU5 to fit this. Forgo the useless high slot drone mod and you can fit ions. Admit it, this setup is subpar at best, and yes its stupid you cant even fit the 2x highs decently. It is even better to use a 1x 1600mm RT 3x Light Neutron setup because it gives lots more defence at the expense of a bit less dps. Subpar compared to a nano? Sure! You asked for a fitting, and I gave you EXACTLY what you wanted.
Propex AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:22:00 - [48] I also don't see a problem with the light neutron setup. I love my plated Vexor.
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:44:00 - [49] Originally by: Propex Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Propex You asking for a drone mod in the high slot is just you being difficult. There is no reason to fit one in PvP unless you are in a gang, and if you are in a gang, and you REALLY want to send your drones out 72k-75k, here you go. 3x Heavy electrons Drone link augmentor Best named MWD x51 web Best named disrupter Omni-directional tracking link SeBo 2 800mm tungsten DCU2 EANM2 2x ANP 2 You don't even need an implant, AWU1, or WU5 to fit this. Forgo the useless high slot drone mod and you can fit ions. Admit it, this setup is subpar at best, and yes its stupid you cant even fit the 2x highs decently. It is even better to use a 1x 1600mm RT 3x Light Neutron setup because it gives lots more defence at the expense of a bit less dps. Subpar compared to a nano? Sure! You asked for a fitting, and I gave you EXACTLY what you wanted. Does that statement take away the fact the setup you gave was subpar? And no i dont blame it on you, i blame it on the ishtar's cpu/grid. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:50:00 - [50] At least a number of people agree on the fact the Ishtar has some issues right now, and will have alot more issues when the nano-nerf strikes. It needs to be revamped, one or another way (grid/cpu, bonusses, whatever) because every sensible setup there is cant fit medium guns. Not to mention the biggest chunk of its dps is destroyable (pretty easy after the drone scoop-shielrecharge nerf) and people know how to destroy drones... It needs some love one way or another, point. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^

Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko Or, you could give it an armor rep bonus, like what myrmidon has, which effectively exclude the nano ishtars from benefiting from it, and encourages active tank Ishtars... Some good points by OP. Eh, they're good points, but the Ishtar doesn't need them yet. It's good to keep in mind as an "intended casualty" of the nano nerf though. Anyway, I like the idea of an armor rep bonus. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:03:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Anyway, I like the idea of an armor rep bonus. -Liang How about a armor resistance bonus or a armor hp bonus ()? *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:04:00 - [53] Originally by: arbalesttom How about a armor resistance bonus or a armor hp bonus ()? Both would arguably be overpowered (Esp right now). Resist bonuses > rep bonuses. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:04:00 - [54] 5% velocity per lvl
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:11:00 - [55] Edited by: Trevor Warps on 27/03/2008 17:14:24 Originally by: Liang Nuren Well, right now it's one of the best HAC's around. Once the nano nerf goes through, it won't be. I doubt it'll be useless, but it won't number in the top 4 HAC's. Also, claiming you can use your hybrid bonus if you fit a full faction setup is just a little over the top, mkay? -Liang Well most HACs will go down in ranks once nano nerf hits, so it will stay about at same position. Also, good news for you. No faction gear is needed to fit med blasters on a ishtar full T2. As I said, it aint the pre-chewed forum fit but it fits perfectly well. Noticed you have to sacrifice something on the Domi to fit blasters ? Same here, nothing new. Edit : Well I lied, you have to use some best named in mids but we are far from faction stuff here.
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:11:00 - [56] Originally by: kessah 5% velocity per lvl I laughed when I saw that. hahaha a vaga-ishtar!
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:17:00 - [57] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 17:21:38 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: arbalesttom How about a armor resistance bonus or a armor hp bonus ()? Both would arguably be overpowered (Esp right now). Resist bonuses > rep bonuses. -Liang Sounds verry true. I do think though the rep bonus is a little bit double: Without trimarks/plates/slaveset the ishtar has a bit more than 2k armor. Even with dual rep and injector, its a verry capunstable ship wich is already really hard to micro-manage (drones, overrepping, overinjecting...), ESPECIALLY because the ship has literaly no buffer without at least a plate or slaveset (i hate taking an ishtar in webrange..). On the other side, a rep bonus would open the possibility of fitting 1x Mar II and 1x plate in the lowslots, giving it a bit more buffer and still have some decent rep ability. Sounds good, but i do prefer the resistance bonus (or the max velocity bonus) *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:19:00 - [58] Originally by: Trevor Warps Well most HACs will go down in ranks once nano nerf hits, so it will stay about at same position. By definition, "most HACs" can't go down in the rankings. Quote: Edit : Well I lied, you have to use some best named in mids but we are far from faction stuff here. Well, there's nothing new there. Well, your mistakes are usually more benign than straight up lying. ;-) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Trevor Warps Edited by: Trevor Warps on 27/03/2008 17:14:24 Originally by: Liang Nuren Well, right now it's one of the best HAC's around. Once the nano nerf goes through, it won't be. I doubt it'll be useless, but it won't number in the top 4 HAC's. Also, claiming you can use your hybrid bonus if you fit a full faction setup is just a little over the top, mkay? -Liang Well most HACs will go down in ranks once nano nerf hits, so it will stay about at same position. Also, good news for you. No faction gear is needed to fit med blasters on a ishtar full T2. As I said, it aint the pre-chewed forum fit but it fits perfectly well. Noticed you have to sacrifice something on the Domi to fit blasters ? Same here, nothing new. Edit : Well I lied, you have to use some best named in mids but we are far from faction stuff here. Friendly question, would you mind posting your setup? I guess its a 800mm RT plate setup? *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Justice Bringer Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:22:00 - [60] Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Zubakis Ishtar needs a massive CPU boost. Ever tried to fit some drone modules on it? Drone rigs have penalty on ships CPU. Drone Link Augmentor: 50cpu, lol? Omnidirectional Tracking Link: 35cpu Drone Navigation Computer: 30cpu And if you want to swap the hybrid bonus, i would take the option #3 and make it an awesome sentry boat. This is true, the modules posted above are probably mostly used for mission setup ishtars. But again, due to cpu problems, you cant fit them. Even if you blow alot of faction stuff on the ship, it will still be pretty impossible to fit them. No this is not true. It is possible to fit the Ishtar with medium guns and drone mods and still have space left for a tank, but you will need to use faction mods. Observe: High 3 x Heavy Electron II, 1 x Med and 1 x Small Diminsihing Nos Med 10MN AB, TS Med Cap Booster, Fleeting Web, Drone Nav Comp, Omni Tracking Link Low TS Med Repper, TS Exp, TS EM, 2 x TS EANM Rigs As you please, The above all fits with those two Drone mods, it's not cheap granted but the TS/Dark Blood mods used to be relatively cheap (relatively ). If you want to fit more than two mods and maybe even rigs, well then you know you have to come up with another setup entirely. I've had a setup that used the Drone Link Augmentor and 2 x Drone Nav Comps to make my drones get to over 100km range in under 5 seconds and if you're in a fleet battle then you'll want to get them there quickly, do damamge and then get them back again. There is no way to completely outfit an Ishtar with Tech II mods as for sure it runs out of juice, so for that reason sure it would require some help, but with a 5,5,5 slot layout if CCP did boost this then the Ishtar would be totally insane. So you have to compromise on what you fit depending upon what you want to do, so don't be greedy and you'll find a setup that suits what you need to accomplish. Whatever you do, don't have any empty slots on your Ishtar, that's just a waste and you'll end up in trouble. Justice

arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:28:00 - [61] Originally by: Justice Bringer No this is not true. It is possible to fit the Ishtar with medium guns and drone mods and still have space left for a tank, but you will need to use faction mods. Observe: High 3 x Heavy Electron II, 1 x Med and 1 x Small Diminsihing Nos Med 10MN AB, TS Med Cap Booster, Fleeting Web, Drone Nav Comp, Omni Tracking Link Low TS Med Repper, TS Exp, TS EM, 2 x TS EANM Rigs As you please, The above all fits with those two Drone mods, it's not cheap granted but the TS/Dark Blood mods used to be relatively cheap (relatively ). If you want to fit more than two mods and maybe even rigs, well then you know you have to come up with another setup entirely. I've had a setup that used the Drone Link Augmentor and 2 x Drone Nav Comps to make my drones get to over 100km range in under 5 seconds and if you're in a fleet battle then you'll want to get them there quickly, do damamge and then get them back again. There is no way to completely outfit an Ishtar with Tech II mods as for sure it runs out of juice, so for that reason sure it would require some help, but with a 5,5,5 slot layout if CCP did boost this then the Ishtar would be totally insane. So you have to compromise on what you fit depending upon what you want to do, so don't be greedy and you'll find a setup that suits what you need to accomplish. Whatever you do, don't have any empty slots on your Ishtar, that's just a waste and you'll end up in trouble. Justice Again, this setup is way too expensive (since it only fits with lots of faction stuff) AND it doesnt have a mwd, wich is mandatory on this ship imho (on any ship). So even with alot of faction stuff the setup has one mayor gimp (no mwd), no buffer, no sustainable defence (since it cant dictate range your dead meat anyway) AND is expensive....not even an option imho. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Justice Bringer Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:31:00 - [62] Originally by: arbalesttom At least a number of people agree on the fact the Ishtar has some issues right now, and will have alot more issues when the nano-nerf strikes. It needs to be revamped, one or another way (grid/cpu, bonusses, whatever) because every sensible setup there is cant fit medium guns. Not to mention the biggest chunk of its dps is destroyable (pretty easy after the drone scoop-shielrecharge nerf) and people know how to destroy drones... It needs some love one way or another, point. Whatever people do say, you must try different things and come up with solutions for yourself. Remeber the movie Apollo 13, they had to get a square peg to fit in a round hole. Well the Ishtar has exactly that problem. How do you get all the good stuff onto it without blowing the fuses. My previous post is only one setup, and I've used many others as I said. You just need to be a little creative because as I said, if it has more grid and more cpu then there's no end to the amount of EW stuff you can fit onboard and for that reason along with the 5,5,5 layout is why it has a tight fitting. A nano Ishtar is NOT the only Ishtar setup you can use, so you just have to find some way to give it the 'love' you speak of without asking the Devs to do if for you . Afterall it's your ship so you need to show it some lurrve Justice
Justice Bringer Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:38:00 - [63] Originally by: arbalesttom Again, this setup is way too expensive (since it only fits with lots of faction stuff) AND it doesnt have a mwd, wich is mandatory on this ship imho (on any ship). So even with alot of faction stuff the setup has one mayor gimp (no mwd), no buffer, no sustainable defence (since it cant dictate range your dead meat anyway) AND is expensive....not even an option imho. See you want to have a big fat cake and eat it all to yourself, which you cannot do. What option are you speaking of then? The setup I gave fits and is useable, but I did say depending upon what you want to do you have to change the way you fit. If you want to fit an MWD then sure that's not a problem, but you can't then also want to fit med guns, med repper, drone mods and the whole kitchen sink. You're being greedy so you have two choices, adapt your setup to what you're doing, or don't use it and choose another ship. It's that simple, and from the sound of things you're obviously attacking the wrong type of ship or engaging in a battle without the necessary ships to assist. The Ishtar is still only a cruiser and nothing more. Justice
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:47:00 - [64] Edited by: Trevor Warps on 27/03/2008 17:49:23 Originally by: arbalesttom Friendly question, would you mind posting your setup? I guess its a 800mm RT plate setup? Sure. Hi : 3x hvy electron II, 2x small nos named med : named mwd, 2x X5 web, faint warp disruptor, cap charger II (or sens boost) low : mar II, DC II, ANM II, explo hard II, 800mm RT It fits with 10 xtra CPU and compares to a deimos 800mm plate setup for DPS and tank (you actually get more dps), but not speed, but you get double webs.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:53:00 - [65] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps Well most HACs will go down in ranks once nano nerf hits, so it will stay about at same position. By definition, "most HACs" can't go down in the rankings. Quote: Edit : Well I lied, you have to use some best named in mids but we are far from faction stuff here. Well, there's nothing new there. Well, your mistakes are usually more benign than straight up lying. ;-) -Liang By definition, 5 out of 8 can go down the rankings, yes. For the lie part, at least I can admit it when I do instead of pulling more arguments out of my dead end.
TimMc Genos Occidere Boner Bandits	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:39:00 - [66] Number 2 sounds useful while not too overpowered. CPU boost sounds nice too, but really isn't the Ishtar good enough?
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:40:00 - [67] Originally by: Garmon Ishtar is a very strong HAC, to justify boosting it by giving it a more useful bonus should also mean that one of its aspects should be nerfed This you have to consider. You cant just "fix" a ship that is already balanced without making it OP. So start thinking about what to nerf for this fix. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:46:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Garmon Ishtar is a very strong HAC, to justify boosting it by giving it a more useful bonus should also mean that one of its aspects should be nerfed This you have to consider. You cant just "fix" a ship that is already balanced without making it OP. So start thinking about what to nerf for this fix. Do you think swapping the 5% Rail Damage bonus for a 5% drone speed (per level) is overpowered? In theory it even lowers the max dps on the ship...and it gives the ship an extra edge without making it overpowered. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:07:00 - [69] Originally by: arbalesttom Do you think swapping the 5% Rail Damage bonus for a 5% drone speed (per level) is overpowered? In theory it even lowers the max dps on the ship...and it gives the ship an extra edge without making it overpowered. Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:17:00 - [70] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 19:21:51 Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 19:20:08 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Do you think swapping the 5% Rail Damage bonus for a 5% drone speed (per level) is overpowered? In theory it even lowers the max dps on the ship...and it gives the ship an extra edge without making it overpowered. Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. Yeah, but it looses its 5% rail damage bonus. And the point, it would be even a NERF to the ishtar (it looses damage) if i have to believe the people who say that fitting medium guns on the ishtar is good *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^

Zubakis Bambooule	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:18:00 - [71] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. What's wrong with this? Light drones are anti frigate weapons. Or do you think that your inty should be able to evade every weapon system in eve even the anti frigate weapons? -- Zuba
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:35:00 - [72] It's a sad day when someone would want to get rid of a damage bonus so that a ship better matches their broken setups and tactics. /makes fart noise
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. Then you freely acknowledge that the bonus is "useless"? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Yaro State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:41:00 - [74] from my point of view ishtar is a skill intensive ship and if fitted properly with some faction mods, it will have a chance to rip most other hacs apart. Nowdays ppl mostly use nanosetups for gangs, but when they nerf nanos ishtar will be amazing with dual rep tank. And yes you can fit med guns to that ship. Obviously if CCP adds some cpu powergrid to this ship it will be very nice, but from my point of view, it would make that ship a little overpowered. here is a setup, u need 5% pg implant and 3% cpu implant and maxed skills in fitting, but it does fit and it is an awesome ship to fly 2 x Medium accomd repairers - if you r rich then swap those for true sanshas rep, then you will be able to tank any hac out there True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener Internal Force Field Array I True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Cap booster Faint Warp Prohibitor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I 3 x Heavy Electron Blaster II faction am 2 x Small Diminishing Power System Drain I 2 x Auxiliary Nano Pump I what other hac can deal almost 600 dps, web, scrambl, nos (a little) and tracking disrupt guns + been able to tank over 500 dps
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:48:00 - [75] Originally by: Yaro fObviously if CCP adds some cpu powergrid to this ship it will be very nice, but from my point of view, it would make that ship a little overpowered. The ship would be no more overpowered than it is if you fit 400M in faction mods. It would simply be cheaper, and slightly worse. It's generally ok to splurge and spend a bit on a faction mod or two, but requiring every slot in your tank 20M+ just so that you can fit the three smallest medium blasters is a bit silly. You're essentially arguing that the Augoror is a fine ship because you can fit an all faction tank to it. (No, I don't think it needs boosted right now). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:57:00 - [76] 5% drone tracking & optimal range per level 4tw :) I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:13:00 - [77] The only change I would sign to the Ishtar is a 5% market price decrease per level. Other than that just leave it alone, see what they wanted to do to the Deimos ?
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. Then you freely acknowledge that the bonus is "useless"? -Liang Ofcourse I do. The bonus and the fitting shortage to use that bonus instead of nano'ing is unfortunate. The problem is, as I said, that even with this "bogus" bonus the ishtar is one of the best hacs out there. You simply CANT give it a boost like that (like giving it the ability to fend off an inty tackler with warriorIIs when no other ship in its dps class can) without nerfing something else. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:09:00 - [79] Originally by: arbalesttom Yeah, but it looses its 5% rail damage bonus. And the point, it would be even a NERF to the ishtar (it looses damage) if i have to believe the people who say that fitting medium guns on the ishtar is good The ishtar already has dps in a very good form (with plenty of backup in drone hold for several waves). You wont miss the 5% rail damage bonus at all when you give any of the named boosts. Whatever replaces that 5% bonus is going to overpower the ishtar. Its already borderline, you cant deny that. Really, you cant. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 03:46:00 - [80] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Yeah, but it looses its 5% rail damage bonus. And the point, it would be even a NERF to the ishtar (it looses damage) if i have to believe the people who say that fitting medium guns on the ishtar is good The ishtar already has dps in a very good form (with plenty of backup in drone hold for several waves). You wont miss the 5% rail damage bonus at all when you give any of the named boosts. Whatever replaces that 5% bonus is going to overpower the ishtar. Its already borderline, you cant deny that. Really, you cant. I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^

Jacob Holland 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:16:00 - [81] The Ishtar's gun bonus is far from useless and I for one would hate to see it go. Yes, if you want to fit a 1600mm plate, rep, MWD and a medium injector you're out of luck but they aren't essential. If you're in a fleet engagement then lose the injector, it's not as though you need it in order to fire your guns and your repper isn't going to be fast enough to kill your cap if you get primaried. Fit a single, between fights, repper and work off a buffer. If you're in solo or small gang PvP then you have much less need for a huge buffer, especially with the resists you can get on the Ishtar. OK, so if you run into a Curse or anything with neuts then your tank will fail and, unless he's close to death as it is, you'll lose but that's a risk you run. In PvE you don't need the MWD, the Injector or the buffer (most likely) and the fact that Dual 150mm IIs hurt a lot more with the bonus than 150mm IIs do is a very important factor in the way you fit the ship. yes, a slight CPU boost (5-10TF perhaps?) would be great, it would make fitting things like Omnidriectional Tracking links so much easier, but I don't think it's vital for the ship as a whole. The "useless" bonus however is something I'd hate to see go - if for no other reason than I use it a heck of a lot more than the drone control range one. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:28:00 - [82] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:43:00 - [83] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. Yes it certainly is! I had multiple encounters with (for example) drakes wich pretty much instapop your Ogre II's. And it are certainly not only drakes i encounter, so.. Also, if your in a nanosetup you CANT just retract your drones, at that point you have to choose between going into webrange (not a problem against a drake ofc...unless he has a webby) OR let your drones die a horrible death, wave after wave. And you tell me, wich ishtar pilot will bring 3 full waves of Ogre II's to the battlefield? None. Ships like the apoc, domi, myrm and phoon for example who rely partially on drones its no argument for, true, but for a ship who has, lets say 90% dps from drones it CERTAINLY is an arguement for. People seem to forget how hard the dronescoop-shieldrecharge balance whacked drone durability. Also, after the nano nerf your best bet will probably the myrm, because it tanks like a beast and can fit a full rack of Ion II's with full tank/mwd, even though it cant field a full Ogre II wave, it can get within webrange without getting instapopped AND deal good damage... *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Darth Felin Free Space Pilots aka Banderlogs Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:43:00 - [84] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:48:00 - [85] Originally by: Darth Felin Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt. Can you provide me atleast several failures in an ishtar because all your ogreIIs got popped? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:49:00 - [86] Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt. Heh, you just said exactly what i wanted to say, but just alot shorter. I just fail at stating my points in a short and clear way *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:49:00 - [87] Originally by: Yaro from my point of view ishtar is a skill intensive ship and if fitted properly with some faction mods, it will have a chance to rip most other hacs apart. Nowdays ppl mostly use nanosetups for gangs, but when they nerf nanos ishtar will be amazing with dual rep tank. And yes you can fit med guns to that ship. Obviously if CCP adds some cpu powergrid to this ship it will be very nice, but from my point of view, it would make that ship a little overpowered. here is a setup, u need 5% pg implant and 3% cpu implant and maxed skills in fitting, but it does fit and it is an awesome ship to fly 2 x Medium accomd repairers - if you r rich then swap those for true sanshas rep, then you will be able to tank any hac out there True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener Internal Force Field Array I True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Cap booster Faint Warp Prohibitor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I 3 x Heavy Electron Blaster II faction am 2 x Small Diminishing Power System Drain I 2 x Auxiliary Nano Pump I what other hac can deal almost 600 dps, web, scrambl, nos (a little) and tracking disrupt guns + been able to tank over 500 dps A nice setup i guess (although i wouldn't use the mids like that). One minor problem. These true sansha stuff is faction and rather expensive. But the main problem here is that without FACTION stuff and IMPLANTS, you can't fit what you have on there, my friend. And i guess that no one should be forced to go out and buy faction stuff to fit an Ishtar without nanos. The ship wasn't meant to be a vagabond style ship i think. Not to mention that on this setup there is a distinct lack of drone modules (no not the drone link augmentors which are mostly useless in pvp), which strikes as something is missing. And i am not even talking about a drone rig, which would cripple your setup too. Ishtar needs a small boost in CPU, not so much a boost in PG (as that might make it overpowered), but definitively an increase in CPU is something that would help the ship. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:52:00 - [88] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Darth Felin Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt. Can you provide me atleast several failures in an ishtar because all your ogreIIs got popped? Ah come on Lyria i have alot of respect for what you say usually, but i really think you just dont have a clue how painfull it is for a drone pilot to manage his drones, and how bloody easy destroyable they are nowadays... I really could start a new topic on how droneships where badly nerfed by the dronescoop balance. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:54:00 - [89] Originally by: arbalesttom Ah come on Lyria i have alot of respect for what you say usually, but i really think you just dont have a clue how painfull it is for a drone pilot to manage his drones, and how bloody easy destroyable they are nowadays... I really could start a new topic on how droneships where badly nerfed by the dronescoop balance. It might be possible for some ships to kill off the ogres before it dies but generally Id still say its not a huge issue. There are many ships that will crumble to an ishtars dps before fending off the drones. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 14:03:00 - [90] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Ah come on Lyria i have alot of respect for what you say usually, but i really think you just dont have a clue how painfull it is for a drone pilot to manage his drones, and how bloody easy destroyable they are nowadays... I really could start a new topic on how droneships where badly nerfed by the dronescoop balance. It might be possible for some ships to kill off the ogres before it dies but generally Id still say its not a huge issue. There are many ships that will crumble to an ishtars dps before fending off the drones. Might? Im sorry but at least 70% of the engagements i have (mostly solo) people start to shoot my drones first, and a big part of them manage to instapop any ogre II they shoot. Even better, often i just have to run from them because i used all (or most) of my drones on them, wich they simply destroy in 1-2 missile volleys/2-4 gunvolleys. Basicly the only targets you can easily engage (given you are fighting someone who knows the deal) are selected caldari ships (mostly bs) and most amarr ships. Other ones just outrun your drones, and now with the nano rage, guess what, EVERY OTHER nanoship can shoot you, but YOU CANT SHOOT THEM because even Valk II's are too slow to catch them (and they probably killed the drones before they can do any serious harm). Really, destroyable dps IS AN ARGUMENT. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^

Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 14:18:00 - [91] Originally by: arbalesttom Really, destroyable dps IS AN ARGUMENT. Ok then it is. But this has been discussed already in "ishtar is overpowered" threads. The power of ishtars have always been justified by the "destructable dps" argument. In my eyes it is used up already. You cant take that argument and "recycle" it and by it justifying another boost. That was more my point. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Wardeneo BLL Wise Guys Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.28 14:31:00 - [92] Originally by: Tiger Ash yawn, another stupid whiner, the ishtar is the best nanoship so far, it doesnt need another bonus to make it even more powerful... signed maybe it needs a nerf wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:25:00 - [93] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Really, destroyable dps IS AN ARGUMENT. Ok then it is. But this has been discussed already in "ishtar is overpowered" threads. The power of ishtars have always been justified by the "destructable dps" argument. In my eyes it is used up already. You cant take that argument and "recycle" it and by it justifying another boost. That was more my point. Can i remind you that 'xxx ship is overpowered' threads are often created by carebears who get there raven destroyed in a belt just because they dont have a clue? I fly the ishtar for quite some time now, and so i can say i have the fieldexperience with using it. People KNOW how to kill drones, and since the gamemechanics allow it, drones ARE easy killed (even with the 50% bonus to drone hp). The ishtar is atm a one trick pony, anyone that has a clue knows how to counter it effectively CAN counter it effectively (not talking about frigates etc ofcoarse). But to come back to the topic, i really think the ishtar needs a review, ESPECIALLY since the nano nerf will hit tranquillity anytime soon. And im not asking for something rediculous overpowered, basicly im asking for a NERF to the max dps on the ship, and people basicly telling me i want to create a new iwin button? Rofl, really, rofl. Oh, did i mentioned the ishtar is actually the worst nanohac vs other nanohacs atm? And when the ishtar loses its only big advantage, speed, there will be no more advantage over taking a deimos, since a deimos can field a good hp tank, big guns (more dps) and ecm drones... And we already know the deimos is a one trick pony as well... *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:30:00 - [94] Originally by: arbalesttom But to come back to the topic, i really think the ishtar needs a review, ESPECIALLY since the nano nerf will hit tranquillity anytime soon. And im not asking for something rediculous overpowered, basicly im asking for a NERF to the max dps on the ship, and people basicly telling me i want to create a new iwin button? Rofl, really, rofl. Oh, did i mentioned the ishtar is actually the worst nanohac vs other nanohacs atm? And when the ishtar loses its only big advantage, speed, there will be no more advantage over taking a deimos, since a deimos can field a good hp tank, big guns (more dps) and ecm drones... And we already know the deimos is a one trick pony as well... Ishtars are great against heavier targets and yes some ships might have to be looked at after nano nerf hits tranq. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:38:00 - [95] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom But to come back to the topic, i really think the ishtar needs a review, ESPECIALLY since the nano nerf will hit tranquillity anytime soon. And im not asking for something rediculous overpowered, basicly im asking for a NERF to the max dps on the ship, and people basicly telling me i want to create a new iwin button? Rofl, really, rofl. Oh, did i mentioned the ishtar is actually the worst nanohac vs other nanohacs atm? And when the ishtar loses its only big advantage, speed, there will be no more advantage over taking a deimos, since a deimos can field a good hp tank, big guns (more dps) and ecm drones... And we already know the deimos is a one trick pony as well... Ishtars are great against heavier targets and yes some ships might have to be looked at after nano nerf hits tranq. I take that as a 'yes, the ishtar needs to be looked at after the nanonerf' (ps its not that i want to have it changed like right now, but like Liang stated before, it needs some changes soon..) *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:43:00 - [96] Also to the people who mentioned the ishtar's drone operation range bonus is useless: Even though your not utilizing this range advantage, it IS a bonus wich works however you set the ship up. So no, i dont think its useless, but yes you can ask yourself what tactical advantage it has.. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Randgris Empirius Enigmus Navy Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 17:41:00 - [97] Originally by: arbalesttom Also to the people who mentioned the ishtar's drone operation range bonus is useless: Even though your not utilizing this range advantage, it IS a bonus wich works however you set the ship up. So no, i dont think its useless, but yes you can ask yourself what tactical advantage it has.. useless bonus? are you kidding me? i enjoy interceptors / nano ships running from my warrior II's to eventually get popped 70 km away from me because my drone control range is 70+ km :D ------------------------------------------ Yes I know how my face looks like :D
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 18:46:00 - [98] Edited by: arbalesttom on 28/03/2008 18:46:42 Originally by: Randgris Originally by: arbalesttom Also to the people who mentioned the ishtar's drone operation range bonus is useless: Even though your not utilizing this range advantage, it IS a bonus wich works however you set the ship up. So no, i dont think its useless, but yes you can ask yourself what tactical advantage it has.. useless bonus? are you kidding me? i enjoy interceptors / nano ships running from my warrior II's to eventually get popped 70 km away from me because my drone control range is 70+ km :D Please, read before you post I think its a good bonus as well, but some people think it isnt (or at least think its more useless than the 5% med rail damage bonus). *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^


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