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The useless Ishtar bonus...solutions!!!

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arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:28:00 - [61] Originally by: Justice Bringer No this is not true. It is possible to fit the Ishtar with medium guns and drone mods and still have space left for a tank, but you will need to use faction mods. Observe: High 3 x Heavy Electron II, 1 x Med and 1 x Small Diminsihing Nos Med 10MN AB, TS Med Cap Booster, Fleeting Web, Drone Nav Comp, Omni Tracking Link Low TS Med Repper, TS Exp, TS EM, 2 x TS EANM Rigs As you please, The above all fits with those two Drone mods, it's not cheap granted but the TS/Dark Blood mods used to be relatively cheap (relatively ). If you want to fit more than two mods and maybe even rigs, well then you know you have to come up with another setup entirely. I've had a setup that used the Drone Link Augmentor and 2 x Drone Nav Comps to make my drones get to over 100km range in under 5 seconds and if you're in a fleet battle then you'll want to get them there quickly, do damamge and then get them back again. There is no way to completely outfit an Ishtar with Tech II mods as for sure it runs out of juice, so for that reason sure it would require some help, but with a 5,5,5 slot layout if CCP did boost this then the Ishtar would be totally insane. So you have to compromise on what you fit depending upon what you want to do, so don't be greedy and you'll find a setup that suits what you need to accomplish. Whatever you do, don't have any empty slots on your Ishtar, that's just a waste and you'll end up in trouble. Justice Again, this setup is way too expensive (since it only fits with lots of faction stuff) AND it doesnt have a mwd, wich is mandatory on this ship imho (on any ship). So even with alot of faction stuff the setup has one mayor gimp (no mwd), no buffer, no sustainable defence (since it cant dictate range your dead meat anyway) AND is expensive....not even an option imho. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Justice Bringer Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:31:00 - [62] Originally by: arbalesttom At least a number of people agree on the fact the Ishtar has some issues right now, and will have alot more issues when the nano-nerf strikes. It needs to be revamped, one or another way (grid/cpu, bonusses, whatever) because every sensible setup there is cant fit medium guns. Not to mention the biggest chunk of its dps is destroyable (pretty easy after the drone scoop-shielrecharge nerf) and people know how to destroy drones... It needs some love one way or another, point. Whatever people do say, you must try different things and come up with solutions for yourself. Remeber the movie Apollo 13, they had to get a square peg to fit in a round hole. Well the Ishtar has exactly that problem. How do you get all the good stuff onto it without blowing the fuses. My previous post is only one setup, and I've used many others as I said. You just need to be a little creative because as I said, if it has more grid and more cpu then there's no end to the amount of EW stuff you can fit onboard and for that reason along with the 5,5,5 layout is why it has a tight fitting. A nano Ishtar is NOT the only Ishtar setup you can use, so you just have to find some way to give it the 'love' you speak of without asking the Devs to do if for you . Afterall it's your ship so you need to show it some lurrve Justice
Justice Bringer Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:38:00 - [63] Originally by: arbalesttom Again, this setup is way too expensive (since it only fits with lots of faction stuff) AND it doesnt have a mwd, wich is mandatory on this ship imho (on any ship). So even with alot of faction stuff the setup has one mayor gimp (no mwd), no buffer, no sustainable defence (since it cant dictate range your dead meat anyway) AND is expensive....not even an option imho. See you want to have a big fat cake and eat it all to yourself, which you cannot do. What option are you speaking of then? The setup I gave fits and is useable, but I did say depending upon what you want to do you have to change the way you fit. If you want to fit an MWD then sure that's not a problem, but you can't then also want to fit med guns, med repper, drone mods and the whole kitchen sink. You're being greedy so you have two choices, adapt your setup to what you're doing, or don't use it and choose another ship. It's that simple, and from the sound of things you're obviously attacking the wrong type of ship or engaging in a battle without the necessary ships to assist. The Ishtar is still only a cruiser and nothing more. Justice
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:47:00 - [64] Edited by: Trevor Warps on 27/03/2008 17:49:23 Originally by: arbalesttom Friendly question, would you mind posting your setup? I guess its a 800mm RT plate setup? Sure. Hi : 3x hvy electron II, 2x small nos named med : named mwd, 2x X5 web, faint warp disruptor, cap charger II (or sens boost) low : mar II, DC II, ANM II, explo hard II, 800mm RT It fits with 10 xtra CPU and compares to a deimos 800mm plate setup for DPS and tank (you actually get more dps), but not speed, but you get double webs.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:53:00 - [65] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps Well most HACs will go down in ranks once nano nerf hits, so it will stay about at same position. By definition, "most HACs" can't go down in the rankings. Quote: Edit : Well I lied, you have to use some best named in mids but we are far from faction stuff here. Well, there's nothing new there. Well, your mistakes are usually more benign than straight up lying. ;-) -Liang By definition, 5 out of 8 can go down the rankings, yes. For the lie part, at least I can admit it when I do instead of pulling more arguments out of my dead end.
TimMc Genos Occidere Boner Bandits	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:39:00 - [66] Number 2 sounds useful while not too overpowered. CPU boost sounds nice too, but really isn't the Ishtar good enough?
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:40:00 - [67] Originally by: Garmon Ishtar is a very strong HAC, to justify boosting it by giving it a more useful bonus should also mean that one of its aspects should be nerfed This you have to consider. You cant just "fix" a ship that is already balanced without making it OP. So start thinking about what to nerf for this fix. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:46:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Garmon Ishtar is a very strong HAC, to justify boosting it by giving it a more useful bonus should also mean that one of its aspects should be nerfed This you have to consider. You cant just "fix" a ship that is already balanced without making it OP. So start thinking about what to nerf for this fix. Do you think swapping the 5% Rail Damage bonus for a 5% drone speed (per level) is overpowered? In theory it even lowers the max dps on the ship...and it gives the ship an extra edge without making it overpowered. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:07:00 - [69] Originally by: arbalesttom Do you think swapping the 5% Rail Damage bonus for a 5% drone speed (per level) is overpowered? In theory it even lowers the max dps on the ship...and it gives the ship an extra edge without making it overpowered. Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:17:00 - [70] Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 19:21:51 Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/03/2008 19:20:08 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Do you think swapping the 5% Rail Damage bonus for a 5% drone speed (per level) is overpowered? In theory it even lowers the max dps on the ship...and it gives the ship an extra edge without making it overpowered. Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. Yeah, but it looses its 5% rail damage bonus. And the point, it would be even a NERF to the ishtar (it looses damage) if i have to believe the people who say that fitting medium guns on the ishtar is good *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^

Zubakis Bambooule	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:18:00 - [71] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. What's wrong with this? Light drones are anti frigate weapons. Or do you think that your inty should be able to evade every weapon system in eve even the anti frigate weapons? -- Zuba
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:35:00 - [72] It's a sad day when someone would want to get rid of a damage bonus so that a ship better matches their broken setups and tactics. /makes fart noise
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. Then you freely acknowledge that the bonus is "useless"? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Yaro State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:41:00 - [74] from my point of view ishtar is a skill intensive ship and if fitted properly with some faction mods, it will have a chance to rip most other hacs apart. Nowdays ppl mostly use nanosetups for gangs, but when they nerf nanos ishtar will be amazing with dual rep tank. And yes you can fit med guns to that ship. Obviously if CCP adds some cpu powergrid to this ship it will be very nice, but from my point of view, it would make that ship a little overpowered. here is a setup, u need 5% pg implant and 3% cpu implant and maxed skills in fitting, but it does fit and it is an awesome ship to fly 2 x Medium accomd repairers - if you r rich then swap those for true sanshas rep, then you will be able to tank any hac out there True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener Internal Force Field Array I True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Cap booster Faint Warp Prohibitor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I 3 x Heavy Electron Blaster II faction am 2 x Small Diminishing Power System Drain I 2 x Auxiliary Nano Pump I what other hac can deal almost 600 dps, web, scrambl, nos (a little) and tracking disrupt guns + been able to tank over 500 dps
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:48:00 - [75] Originally by: Yaro fObviously if CCP adds some cpu powergrid to this ship it will be very nice, but from my point of view, it would make that ship a little overpowered. The ship would be no more overpowered than it is if you fit 400M in faction mods. It would simply be cheaper, and slightly worse. It's generally ok to splurge and spend a bit on a faction mod or two, but requiring every slot in your tank 20M+ just so that you can fit the three smallest medium blasters is a bit silly. You're essentially arguing that the Augoror is a fine ship because you can fit an all faction tank to it. (No, I don't think it needs boosted right now). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:57:00 - [76] 5% drone tracking & optimal range per level 4tw :) I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:13:00 - [77] The only change I would sign to the Ishtar is a 5% market price decrease per level. Other than that just leave it alone, see what they wanted to do to the Deimos ?
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Because warrior IIs would catch even inties that are seen as fast. It would also insure less dps loss when switching attacked ogreIIs. so yes, I still belive you need to nerf something to add even the drone speed bonus. Then you freely acknowledge that the bonus is "useless"? -Liang Ofcourse I do. The bonus and the fitting shortage to use that bonus instead of nano'ing is unfortunate. The problem is, as I said, that even with this "bogus" bonus the ishtar is one of the best hacs out there. You simply CANT give it a boost like that (like giving it the ability to fend off an inty tackler with warriorIIs when no other ship in its dps class can) without nerfing something else. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:09:00 - [79] Originally by: arbalesttom Yeah, but it looses its 5% rail damage bonus. And the point, it would be even a NERF to the ishtar (it looses damage) if i have to believe the people who say that fitting medium guns on the ishtar is good The ishtar already has dps in a very good form (with plenty of backup in drone hold for several waves). You wont miss the 5% rail damage bonus at all when you give any of the named boosts. Whatever replaces that 5% bonus is going to overpower the ishtar. Its already borderline, you cant deny that. Really, you cant. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 03:46:00 - [80] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Yeah, but it looses its 5% rail damage bonus. And the point, it would be even a NERF to the ishtar (it looses damage) if i have to believe the people who say that fitting medium guns on the ishtar is good The ishtar already has dps in a very good form (with plenty of backup in drone hold for several waves). You wont miss the 5% rail damage bonus at all when you give any of the named boosts. Whatever replaces that 5% bonus is going to overpower the ishtar. Its already borderline, you cant deny that. Really, you cant. I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^

Jacob Holland 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:16:00 - [81] The Ishtar's gun bonus is far from useless and I for one would hate to see it go. Yes, if you want to fit a 1600mm plate, rep, MWD and a medium injector you're out of luck but they aren't essential. If you're in a fleet engagement then lose the injector, it's not as though you need it in order to fire your guns and your repper isn't going to be fast enough to kill your cap if you get primaried. Fit a single, between fights, repper and work off a buffer. If you're in solo or small gang PvP then you have much less need for a huge buffer, especially with the resists you can get on the Ishtar. OK, so if you run into a Curse or anything with neuts then your tank will fail and, unless he's close to death as it is, you'll lose but that's a risk you run. In PvE you don't need the MWD, the Injector or the buffer (most likely) and the fact that Dual 150mm IIs hurt a lot more with the bonus than 150mm IIs do is a very important factor in the way you fit the ship. yes, a slight CPU boost (5-10TF perhaps?) would be great, it would make fitting things like Omnidriectional Tracking links so much easier, but I don't think it's vital for the ship as a whole. The "useless" bonus however is something I'd hate to see go - if for no other reason than I use it a heck of a lot more than the drone control range one. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:28:00 - [82] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:43:00 - [83] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. Yes it certainly is! I had multiple encounters with (for example) drakes wich pretty much instapop your Ogre II's. And it are certainly not only drakes i encounter, so.. Also, if your in a nanosetup you CANT just retract your drones, at that point you have to choose between going into webrange (not a problem against a drake ofc...unless he has a webby) OR let your drones die a horrible death, wave after wave. And you tell me, wich ishtar pilot will bring 3 full waves of Ogre II's to the battlefield? None. Ships like the apoc, domi, myrm and phoon for example who rely partially on drones its no argument for, true, but for a ship who has, lets say 90% dps from drones it CERTAINLY is an arguement for. People seem to forget how hard the dronescoop-shieldrecharge balance whacked drone durability. Also, after the nano nerf your best bet will probably the myrm, because it tanks like a beast and can fit a full rack of Ion II's with full tank/mwd, even though it cant field a full Ogre II wave, it can get within webrange without getting instapopped AND deal good damage... *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Darth Felin Free Space Pilots aka Banderlogs Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:43:00 - [84] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:48:00 - [85] Originally by: Darth Felin Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt. Can you provide me atleast several failures in an ishtar because all your ogreIIs got popped? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:49:00 - [86] Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/03/2008 13:29:12 Originally by: arbalesttom I can, again its fully dps is destroyable, yes you can take some extra waves. You just dont want to know how much drones this ship eats... No you cant in most realistic situations. You know this, dont try to convince people otherwise. An ishtar can have 3 waves of OgreIIs. Until you manage to kill all that off while hes pulling an attacked drone back and forth into his bays youll be dead because of the overwhelming dps it has. It does not work. It doesnt. Destroyable dps is not an argument. Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt. Heh, you just said exactly what i wanted to say, but just alot shorter. I just fail at stating my points in a short and clear way *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:49:00 - [87] Originally by: Yaro from my point of view ishtar is a skill intensive ship and if fitted properly with some faction mods, it will have a chance to rip most other hacs apart. Nowdays ppl mostly use nanosetups for gangs, but when they nerf nanos ishtar will be amazing with dual rep tank. And yes you can fit med guns to that ship. Obviously if CCP adds some cpu powergrid to this ship it will be very nice, but from my point of view, it would make that ship a little overpowered. here is a setup, u need 5% pg implant and 3% cpu implant and maxed skills in fitting, but it does fit and it is an awesome ship to fly 2 x Medium accomd repairers - if you r rich then swap those for true sanshas rep, then you will be able to tank any hac out there True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener Internal Force Field Array I True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Cap booster Faint Warp Prohibitor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I 3 x Heavy Electron Blaster II faction am 2 x Small Diminishing Power System Drain I 2 x Auxiliary Nano Pump I what other hac can deal almost 600 dps, web, scrambl, nos (a little) and tracking disrupt guns + been able to tank over 500 dps A nice setup i guess (although i wouldn't use the mids like that). One minor problem. These true sansha stuff is faction and rather expensive. But the main problem here is that without FACTION stuff and IMPLANTS, you can't fit what you have on there, my friend. And i guess that no one should be forced to go out and buy faction stuff to fit an Ishtar without nanos. The ship wasn't meant to be a vagabond style ship i think. Not to mention that on this setup there is a distinct lack of drone modules (no not the drone link augmentors which are mostly useless in pvp), which strikes as something is missing. And i am not even talking about a drone rig, which would cripple your setup too. Ishtar needs a small boost in CPU, not so much a boost in PG (as that might make it overpowered), but definitively an increase in CPU is something that would help the ship. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:52:00 - [88] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Darth Felin Lyria can you please provide me at least several kills that you did in Ishtar. It is very hard if not impossible to pull drone in and out from outside webrange. And inside it your tank will just melt. Can you provide me atleast several failures in an ishtar because all your ogreIIs got popped? Ah come on Lyria i have alot of respect for what you say usually, but i really think you just dont have a clue how painfull it is for a drone pilot to manage his drones, and how bloody easy destroyable they are nowadays... I really could start a new topic on how droneships where badly nerfed by the dronescoop balance. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:54:00 - [89] Originally by: arbalesttom Ah come on Lyria i have alot of respect for what you say usually, but i really think you just dont have a clue how painfull it is for a drone pilot to manage his drones, and how bloody easy destroyable they are nowadays... I really could start a new topic on how droneships where badly nerfed by the dronescoop balance. It might be possible for some ships to kill off the ogres before it dies but generally Id still say its not a huge issue. There are many ships that will crumble to an ishtars dps before fending off the drones. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.28 14:03:00 - [90] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Ah come on Lyria i have alot of respect for what you say usually, but i really think you just dont have a clue how painfull it is for a drone pilot to manage his drones, and how bloody easy destroyable they are nowadays... I really could start a new topic on how droneships where badly nerfed by the dronescoop balance. It might be possible for some ships to kill off the ogres before it dies but generally Id still say its not a huge issue. There are many ships that will crumble to an ishtars dps before fending off the drones. Might? Im sorry but at least 70% of the engagements i have (mostly solo) people start to shoot my drones first, and a big part of them manage to instapop any ogre II they shoot. Even better, often i just have to run from them because i used all (or most) of my drones on them, wich they simply destroy in 1-2 missile volleys/2-4 gunvolleys. Basicly the only targets you can easily engage (given you are fighting someone who knows the deal) are selected caldari ships (mostly bs) and most amarr ships. Other ones just outrun your drones, and now with the nano rage, guess what, EVERY OTHER nanoship can shoot you, but YOU CANT SHOOT THEM because even Valk II's are too slow to catch them (and they probably killed the drones before they can do any serious harm). Really, destroyable dps IS AN ARGUMENT. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^



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