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Building ships. what profit??

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minestar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:32:00 - [1] Hi all Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20). What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices). Im new to building so any help would be great.
Ioci Ioci Exploration Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:40:00 - [2] Originally by: minestar Hi all Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20). What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices). Im new to building so any help would be great. If you stack the minerals to build your Raven, they will find they are worth more than the raven you plan to build. I have no idea how people are building ships and making money. It seems to be more of a hobby aspect to the game than a way to make ISK. Not to discourage you from becoming a manufacturing mogul. Just pointing out the truth right now.
Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:40:00 - [3] Easiest way to figure that out is to look at the bill of materials and then open up the market and whip out the calculator tbh. Yes, it's a tedious job and yes, it fluctuates. If you want a quick/ semi- reliable estimate, use EveMon's mineral worksheet tool. If I had to guess I'd say the raven market is competitive as hell. ______________________________ "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space."
Phaige Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:44:00 - [4] I've got a Raven bpo with more research then that, and tbh I have a hell of a time making Raven's for profit on the market these days. Competition is fierce and mineral prices fluxuate a lot. Best BS boat that I've found to build for profit is the Typhoon, especially if you operate in or near Min. space. Seems to be a fairly quick seller, and with a BP at... I think its at 30me we turn a healthy profit (I'd have to be IG to be able to tell you actual ISK values, sorry). Heck, my corp is funding all of its operations off of one group mining op a week (ish), loot donations for refinment, and corp sold Phoons. ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Drizit FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:45:00 - [5] If you want isk, building T1 ships is not the way to go unless you find an area where the demand allows you to up the price a bit. Even if you mine the ore yourself, the time spent mining as well as cost of building it has to be calculated into the profit margin. Shipbuilding is so cutthroat now that the market price of most battleships have dropped to almost below their ore value. Unless you have excellent skills to reduce waste and time to build it, I'd say go for something smaller like a cruiser or BC. New players are often losing them in missions and therefore they sell quite quickly and their price is more stable. Having said all that, I'd do it just for the sheer hell of saying "I build battleships" to the girls I meet in the nightclub. At least they can't accuse of lying when they find out --
Phaige Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Drizit If you want isk, building T1 ships is not the way to go unless you find an area where the demand allows you to up the price a bit. Even if you mine the ore yourself, the time spent mining as well as cost of building it has to be calculated into the profit margin. Shipbuilding is so cutthroat now that the market price of most battleships have dropped to almost below their ore value. Unless you have excellent skills to reduce waste and time to build it, I'd say go for something smaller like *a cruiser or BC*. New players are often losing them in missions and therefore they sell quite quickly and their price is more stable. Having said all that, I'd do it just for the sheer hell of saying "I build battleships" to the girls I meet in the nightclub. At least they can't accuse of lying when they find out Stabber is your friend. ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:50:00 - [7] There is no profit. You will lose money. Here's why: 1. The Raven is a tech 1 ship, and there are literally thousands of people who have maximized their manufacturing skills to higher than what you have, and who have blueprints researched to more than your ME 20. They can make it cheaper than you can. 2. Everyone sells minerals in Jita cause they are the most profitable (most expensive) there. 3. Everyone buys ships in Jita because they are the cheapest there. If you really want to make and sell that Raven and make profit, then what you need to do is get minerals for cheaper (set up buy orders in the outskirts of space, not in Jita, and buy at 2.40 instead of 3.00 for example), and then also try to sell the Raven near to where it's needed (find a mission hub like Motsu or others that are even farther away from Jita, and sell the Raven there). Even then it will be hard. People go for T2 ships these days, not obsolete tech like the Raven. All you hear about is HACs, CNRs, etc etc.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:05:00 - [8] If you set up shop in the middle of a market where everybody else is, you'll (not surprisingly) get top price! You need to find a place where there's a market, but which doesn't have many traders present. You'll also need access to a factory nearby and a good mineral supply. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ralara D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Ioci Originally by: minestar Hi all Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20). What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices). Im new to building so any help would be great. If you stack the minerals to build your Raven, they will find they are worth more than the raven you plan to build. I have no idea how people are building ships and making money. It seems to be more of a hobby aspect to the game than a way to make ISK. Not to discourage you from becoming a manufacturing mogul. Just pointing out the truth right now. They aren't making money. They think that jsut because they mine the minerals themselves, it's "free" - they forget about the time it takes them to do it - my time can be worth up to 20-100m an hour - if im mining for 10 hours to get the stuff for a Raven, that's 200m-1b isk "lost". People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots. -- Ralara / Ralarina
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:36:00 - [10] Quote: People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots. ' They're idiots? Well, they're making ISK selling ****, and you're not, so...

Asestorian Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots. ' They're idiots? Well, they're making ISK selling ****, and you're not, so... Yeah but the point is that they could be making more money just selling the minerals they used to make those ships in the first place --- MOZO
Mithfindel Argent Group	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Kahega Amielden They're idiots? Well, they're making ISK selling ****, and you're not, so... In the matter of fact, they are making ISK, yes. However, if they work for the Raven for the menioned ten hours and gain 90 million from the sales. That's an average of nine million per hour. If the sole goal is that of generating ISK, then Ralera's lower bracket of 20 million per hour is over 100 % more, which means that while they might not literally be losing ISK, their ISK gain is suboptimal, assuming that the 90 million sell price is still above the price of the minerals used in the manufacturing process. If they are selling below the mineral price, then they are actually losing ISK (since they get less from the ship as they would get from selling the raw materials). Another view is that if cheap minerals are available, in this case if the manufacturers could get their hour's worth of mined minerals under nine million, then they are actually working at a loss - "outsourcing" the mining to the open markets would be more profitable when taking in account the time use. Of course, the correctness of the ten hour estimate is critical when calculating this kind of a profit in ISK/hour. Personally, I am no miner, so I cannot evaluate the claim.
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:52:00 - [13] Originally by: Ralara People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots. The time window to get a ship cheaper than mineral costs is something like 5 minutes after setup the sell order because then the ship is bought by a manufacturing competitor and recycled or resold for a higher price by a trader - it's because they're smart. (That's also the reason why you make the biggest profit in the rare cases when the mineral requirements for an item are lowered after a patch - like armor hardeners for instance: large batches of overpriced pieces sell quite fast because some scrap metal recyclers are still working with their old excel sheets not being up-to-date.)
Phaige Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:54:00 - [14] Edited by: Phaige on 27/03/2008 20:56:15 Originally by: Ralara They think that jsut because they mine the minerals themselves, it's "free" - they forget about the time it takes them to do it - my time can be worth up to 20-100m an hour - if im mining for 10 hours to get the stuff for a Raven, that's 200m-1b isk "lost".[/quote True, realativly. My time might be worth 30m an hour, but then again that generally requires I pay attention. Mining in a backwater system while I watch movies or "spend time with the lady" and still manage to mine enough to build a coupld of cruisers/bc/bs whatever, is all good. Thats why I hate the ISK/Hour figuring, cause the importance of each calculation is completely realative to the person. But this: People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots. Is just plain "you should be drug out into the street for a beating and never be allowed to breed" kind of stupid. ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Benco97 Exchangable Properties	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:06:00 - [15] I've never liked that time is money thing. Comparatively speaking we could find out the person who has made the most isk per hour EVER and then always compare our current actions to that. What's that, lucky faction drop? 500million in 10 mins? Goddamn my time is valuable! except... i'm not the one getting the drop, if mining for those ships is what you WANT to be doing then there is no better thing to do irrespective of "isk per hour". Maybe they ENJOY doing that? do you factor enjoyment into that equation? How much is one enjoyment worth? It's a game, get over yourselves. Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
Drizit FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Asestorian Yeah but the point is that they could be making more money just selling the minerals they used to make those ships in the first place The real point is whether you play this game for fun or to be a tycoon. If your aim is to be a tycoon, you'd be better off playing in RL and making RL money. I have built and sold loads of stuff for less than mineral prices. However, I mine my own minerals so it's up to me if I want to take a hit on the selling price, I still make isk but not as much as if I'd sold the minerals. At the end of the day, it's just a game and it's not as if your mortgage is going to be unpaid if you choose to lose isk occasionally. I could do the math and amass billions of isk. To what purpose? So I can have 16 Freighters? Or maybe an officer fitted CNR for every day of the week? It really takes the fun out of the game to know you have the isk to buy anything you want and never have to strive to obtain it. Half the fun is in earning the isk to buy what you want but when you have it, you can relax and take a loss now and then. You know that when the next patch comes out, you'll have more to have fun striving for and not just buy it cos it's there. -- Freighters need a tank
Ralara D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:08:00 - [17] Edited by: Ralara on 27/03/2008 21:09:19 Originally by: Phaige Edited by: Phaige on 27/03/2008 20:56:15 Originally by: Ralara They think that jsut because they mine the minerals themselves, it's "free" - they forget about the time it takes them to do it - my time can be worth up to 20-100m an hour - if im mining for 10 hours to get the stuff for a Raven, that's 200m-1b isk "lost".[/quote True, realativly. My time might be worth 30m an hour, but then again that generally requires I pay attention. Mining in a backwater system while I watch movies or "spend time with the lady" and still manage to mine enough to build a coupld of cruisers/bc/bs whatever, is all good. Thats why I hate the ISK/Hour figuring, cause the importance of each calculation is completely realative to the person. But this: People don't think like that, which is why you get ships being sold cheaper than the minerals it costs to make them - it's because they're idiots. Is just plain "you should be drug out into the street for a beating and never be allowed to breed" kind of stupid. huh? If they're selling at below production costs, just sell the minerals. If it costs 95m in minerals to build, and you sell it for 90m, what the hell is the point in renting either a pos or station slot to build, and buying the BPO? Just sell the minerals. EDIT: what have you done to the quotes?? -- Ralara / Ralarina
Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:22:00 - [18] Originally by: Benco97 I've never liked that time is money thing. Comparatively speaking we could find out the person who has made the most isk per hour EVER and then always compare our current actions to that. What's that, lucky faction drop? 500million in 10 mins? Goddamn my time is valuable! except... i'm not the one getting the drop, if mining for those ships is what you WANT to be doing then there is no better thing to do irrespective of "isk per hour". Maybe they ENJOY doing that? do you factor enjoyment into that equation? How much is one enjoyment worth? It's a game, get over yourselves. Yeah, it's a game and games have rules and objectives and generally the point of playing a game is to try to win even if only in a half- assed way. Measuring Eve solely by ISK/ hour is admittedly a boring way to approach it, but if you're playing the game as a business sim then is it really so soul- crushing to try to make a profit? ______________________________ "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space."
Wet Ferret Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Ralara just sell the minerals. You're wrong in assuming you can "just sell the minerals". It's not that mined ore is "free" but it's worth less than market value if you need to move the crap around to get the best price for it, or wait til someone decides to buy it for the price you want. Building a ship and selling it could very well be bringing in more ISK faster than selling the minerals, depending on who you are, what kind of ships you can fly (like a freighter), etc. There's more to it than just what the market price tells you.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Benco97 I've never liked that time is money thing. Comparatively speaking we could find out the person who has made the most isk per hour EVER and then always compare our current actions to that. You don't compare to other people, you compare to yourself. It's basically this: you could spend 10 hours mining to make a 90 million ISK Raven, or you could spend 10 hours missioning or Inventing or scamming or whatever the heck you can do well, to make 180 million. What do you do? That's how people figure out if anything is profitable. "Do I spend the next hour hauling for that 1 million ISK courier contract, or do I spend the next hour mining in my cruiser at 5 million per hour?" The contract isn't worth it.

Drizit FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.08 12:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Letouk Mernel That's how people figure out if anything is profitable. "Do I spend the next hour hauling for that 1 million ISK courier contract, or do I spend the next hour mining in my cruiser at 5 million per hour?" The contract isn't worth it. Experience counts for a lot more than isk. Those courier contracts may give you the knowledge of the map enough to see another very profitable courier contract. The same way that building and selling items gives you a broader view of the market and where you can get the best prices. This knowledge has led me to lucrative trading runs on occasion. -- Freighters need a tank
Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Ioci Originally by: minestar Hi all Ive got the chance to buy a raven bpo(me 20). What sort of profit can i expect if the selling price is about 91.5mil (jita prices). Im new to building so any help would be great. If you stack the minerals to build your Raven, they will find they are worth more than the raven you plan to build. I have no idea how people are building ships and making money. It seems to be more of a hobby aspect to the game than a way to make ISK. Not to discourage you from becoming a manufacturing mogul. Just pointing out the truth right now. Because somehow if you mine it it is free. Maybe these people simply do not value their time like the rest of us? ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:02:00 - [23] The short answer to the OP: Little to nothing unless you're doing it in 0.0
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Wet Ferret Originally by: Ralara just sell the minerals. You're wrong in assuming you can "just sell the minerals". It's not that mined ore is "free" but it's worth less than market value if you need to move the crap around to get the best price for it, or wait til someone decides to buy it for the price you want. Building a ship and selling it could very well be bringing in more ISK faster than selling the minerals, depending on who you are, what kind of ships you can fly (like a freighter), etc. There's more to it than just what the market price tells you. However, the same is true for whatever ship you may build out of the minerals.
Armoured C Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:11:00 - [25] if you having problem selling ships with out profit come and sell it in low sec where such pirates and alike cant go into high sec
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:15:00 - [26] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/04/2008 13:16:13 Originally by: Armoured C if you having problem selling ships with out profit come and sell it in low sec where such pirates and alike cant go into high sec This. You can easily charge roughly 5% to 10% extra. Also, certain kinds of consumables are rather popular in low-sec as well. I'd probably be making very good ISK in low-sec if I was a industrialist for fairly little effort tbh. I manufacture frigs and certain consumables off reprocessed T1/low-named junk, works quite well. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Trojanman190 The Conflagration New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:16:00 - [27] The problem is that a lot of people think that if you mined the minerals yourself, they are free and you can undercut what it actually costs to build the ship. I own a typhoon bpo with roughly 30me and I haven't been able to sell them for a profit for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. It also seems that invention is causing the t2 market to move in the exact same direction. Newbs think that the datacores their agents generate are free and think that the t1 ships they build are also free. So they undercut the guys that actually try to post for a small profit and in the end nobody will make money. Datacore prices are dropping, t2 ship prices are dropping, and some t2 modules have completely bottomed out.
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik aurorae pacificas	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:19:00 - [28] the people posting above that think manufacturers dont make a profit are delusional. Personally for t1 BC and BS you are looking at about 4-8% profit margins in a competitive market. If you want to increase that to perhaps double or so you will need to set low buy orders region wide and be prepared to run around alot collecting mins. If you are happy to buy minerals from sell orders in market hubs you will be looking at at under 5-8% profit on mineral/production costs. therefore figure out how much you paid for the bpo and see how many ships you would have to sell before breaking even. You will find that t1 manufacturing is a LONG TERM investment in both skills and resources. You do however get to log into a wallet that has grown 50-60mil in profit overnight or while you make active isk generation Aussie TZ pvp corp AuPac is recruiting
Norjia Blacksteel Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:31:00 - [29] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik the people posting above that think manufacturers dont make a profit are delusional. Yup. We stand by our name, especially the "Manufacturing" part. We manufacture and sell T1 cruisers and battleships, and we make good money. But defintely get a spreadsheet going to monitor your costs. Example: We were making and selling Iteron IIIs for 10% profit for months. Then, inexplicably, the price started dropping. It went to -10% (we stopped making them at 7%). I almost forgot about that market. Then months later, I checked back, and it was at 25% profit. So we're making them again. But the price has begun to drop again over the last couple weeks. Monitor your costs and profits very carefully, and you can do well manufacturing. ---- Norjia Blacksteel CEO Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:33:00 - [30] I dont necessarly view ore I ve mined as free but it usually dosnt really cost me anything time wise as I am doing something else and just moving ore to a jet can ever 5 min or so with out paying attention. So that ore dosnt have any other opertunity cost as I cannt be ratting or missioning, but I can be mining. Lot of folks mine that way. Now after saying that I alway check the market to see if I am better off selling the ore to someone else or using it to build something, but I understand sometimes when folk talk about free minerals.

Cyclops43 Deeper Trouble	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:08:00 - [31] For Ravens you'll have a lot of competition from guys like me.... I'm mission running to finance my 0.0 play, and when I've gathered a large enough pile of minerals from refined loot, I build them into a Raven. I'm not particularly interested in whether I sell that a million or more below the mineral price as selling one Raven is a lot less effort than selling a bunch of minerals. This is of.c. illogical seen from a builders perspective, but is logical from mine. I'm getting the minerals as 'by-products' from my mission running, whereas you have to mine/buy them. This is probably one of the main reasons its hard to make money as a ship-builder these days. Personally I think loot dropped from missions should not include basic T1 items at all, but should mainly be composed of items 'outside' the builder produced ones. For examply the newly introduced 'Nanite Compound' would have been a perfect replacement for some of the basic T1 stuff dropped in missions, but CCP chose to make it an ISK sink instead. CCP should take a lot of the NPC-sold only items and make them NPC-drops instead.....
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:32:00 - [32] Last time I ran some figures, a raven fetched 12-20k per minute. That's a lot more than my usual lines. Improve Market Competition!
Meisje Drake Fleet The Acquisition	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:40:00 - [33] If you've got money to invest in something bpo-wise, rather than a raven, I'd suggest you go with something like a capital ship/component bpo. Research the bpo up to a high ME and run copies of it for awhile. I do this with freighter bpos. It doesn't pay out that much really, (freighter bpc's don't sell for a ton these days) but what you get from the sale is all profit with almost no effort involved. You could still mine and sell your minerals...it's just an extra little boost to your income. It will be way more than any profit you would make from building ravens vs selling minerals you'd use in ravens. Plus, when it's all said and done, you still have the high-end, researched bpo you can still sell for more than what you paid for it. The only (non-opportunity) cost is the research/copying slot fees.
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:25:00 - [34] You people have no idea how to run an investment. You don't make you money when you sell, you make money when you buy. This is an often overlooked fact of investing. I make Ravens for 79 million a pop and sell them for 90.5 million in LoneTrek. Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high. You people need to read up on some investment materials and educate on how it works. This is my Opinion and not that of Black River Industries or any of its members.
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Cyclops43 For Ravens you'll have a lot of competition from guys like me.... I'm mission running to finance my 0.0 play, and when I've gathered a large enough pile of minerals from refined loot, I build them into a Raven. I'm not particularly interested in whether I sell that a million or more below the mineral price as selling one Raven is a lot less effort than selling a bunch of minerals. This is of.c. illogical seen from a builders perspective, but is logical from mine. I'm getting the minerals as 'by-products' from my mission running, whereas you have to mine/buy them. This is probably one of the main reasons its hard to make money as a ship-builder these days. Personally I think loot dropped from missions should not include basic T1 items at all, but should mainly be composed of items 'outside' the builder produced ones. For examply the newly introduced 'Nanite Compound' would have been a perfect replacement for some of the basic T1 stuff dropped in missions, but CCP chose to make it an ISK sink instead. CCP should take a lot of the NPC-sold only items and make them NPC-drops instead..... Another person who must have forgotten thier basic High School Economics class. It is called Opportunity costs. If you "don't care" about selling Ravens way below market costs because you get the minerals for "free" from refining mission loot you are missing the point. The "opportunity" cost of selling the minerals on the open market for more then the costs of actually making the ship (which includes manufacturing costs, opportunity costs of the BPO and the research time costs) is more then the Raven. You are still losing money. Especially if you bought a Raven BPO for a billion ISK. You have to recoup those costs! Think about it people! Think about it! This is my Opinion and not that of Black River Industries or any of its members.
Guillome Renard Access Services	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Benco97 I've never liked that time is money thing. Comparatively speaking we could find out the person who has made the most isk per hour EVER and then always compare our current actions to that. What's that, lucky faction drop? 500million in 10 mins? Goddamn my time is valuable! except... i'm not the one getting the drop, if mining for those ships is what you WANT to be doing then there is no better thing to do irrespective of "isk per hour". Maybe they ENJOY doing that? do you factor enjoyment into that equation? How much is one enjoyment worth? You prove your own argument to be absurd. YOUR time is worth however much YOU can make as a maximum. If you can consistently get lucky faction drops every ten minutes? Then yes, your time is worth 6B ISK and a rational actor will settle for nothing less. But as you point out, that's not going to happen. In order to be useful a a metric for the value of your time, you need to be able to do it whenever you want, for as long as you want. In many cases this is mission running or mining and selling the minerals. Now, if you're going to spend time doing X instead of Y, and X makes you 45M/hr and Y only makes you 30M/hr then the enjoyment you gain from Y over X (the fun you have) is worth 15M/hr to you. The criticism of people who sell ships at less than cost is of a different sort than you identify, however. In that situation you're being given a choice: You can have 100M for the minerals you mined (and enjoyed mining, good for you). OR you can have 91M for a raven you build from those same minerals, and then spent ISK on building, AND waited for (time cost of money depreciation)... Putting more time in it, spending (admittedly trivial amounts of ISK) on it... and you want 9M less for it? Ummmm. Okay. I'll take that deal! If you say that's enjoyable for you? That's great! I will happily keep my 9M, give you the enjoyment, and then turn around and grind the Raven into minerals that I sell for a 9M profit! What's more? I guarantee you I will enjoy doing it! Everybody wins! Originally by: Benco97 It's a game, get over yourselves. Likewise. -Guillome Renard, ACCS -------------------------------------------------- Rational problem solving since 03/08! Ask me about subcontracted production and hauling!
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:55:00 - [37] Quote: I make Ravens for 79 million a pop and sell them for 90.5 million in LoneTrek. Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high. So if you got the minerals for free (mined them yourself) you could sell that Raven for 25 million and still make a huge profit? The issue isn't where you get your profit from, the issue is selling ravens at prices less than the minerals would sell for separately. I don't mind myself if people do that, just a lot of them do it based on completely flawed understandings of economics.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:55:00 - [38] Quote: Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high Or, you could just sell those minerals for more than the raven is worth... Improve Market Competition!
Cyclops43 Deeper Trouble	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:00:00 - [39] Edited by: Cyclops43 on 08/04/2008 16:05:36 Originally by: Cloora Originally by: Cyclops43 For Ravens you'll have a lot of competition from guys like me.... I'm mission running to finance my 0.0 play, and when I've gathered a large enough pile of minerals from refined loot, I build them into a Raven. I'm not particularly interested in whether I sell that a million or more below the mineral price as selling one Raven is a lot less effort than selling a bunch of minerals. This is of.c. illogical seen from a builders perspective, but is logical from mine. I'm getting the minerals as 'by-products' from my mission running, whereas you have to mine/buy them. This is probably one of the main reasons its hard to make money as a ship-builder these days. Personally I think loot dropped from missions should not include basic T1 items at all, but should mainly be composed of items 'outside' the builder produced ones. For examply the newly introduced 'Nanite Compound' would have been a perfect replacement for some of the basic T1 stuff dropped in missions, but CCP chose to make it an ISK sink instead. CCP should take a lot of the NPC-sold only items and make them NPC-drops instead..... Another person who must have forgotten thier basic High School Economics class. It is called Opportunity costs. If you "don't care" about selling Ravens way below market costs because you get the minerals for "free" from refining mission loot you are missing the point. The "opportunity" cost of selling the minerals on the open market for more then the costs of actually making the ship (which includes manufacturing costs, opportunity costs of the BPO and the research time costs) is more then the Raven. You are still losing money. Especially if you bought a Raven BPO for a billion ISK. You have to recoup those costs! Think about it people! Think about it! You did not read my post well enough. Read the part in red! Me selling a Raven takes the time to put up a sell order. I can easily fly the ship to where I sell it. Me selling the min's will mean I have to make multiple hauler trips, and will most likely have to babysit the sell orders. I make more ISK/Effort on selling the Raven than selling the min's, since if I spend the RL time I save on missions instead, I'll earn well more than the few ISK I'd have earned extra on selling the min's. Your argument makes sense if I was a builder, but my whole point was that I was not, thus what you see as sensible isn't so to me in my situation.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:25:00 - [40] The time=money argument doesnt hold water. If your time was worth anything, you wouldn't be playing a video game, you'd be in the New York Stock Exchange doing it for realz. The bottom line is people play this for fun. People become miners and builders for fun. Lots of people find crafting to be the most fun thing in an MMO, and they will do it whether its optimal or not. The fact that there are prolly tons of manufacturers trying to sell Ravens in Jita should be taken into account. What's that tell you? Don't sell in Jita. I always liked the "Country Store" idea. Basically you find an underserved area with crappy market, and you stock with EVERYTHING. See people won't buy the Raven unless they can also buy the launchers. They wont buy the launchers unless they can also buy the shield tank. They wont buy the shield tank unless they can also buy the ammo. Basically nobody buys a ship unless they can kit it out right from the station. hats why HUBS exist, thats why they're popular, thats why everybody goes there. If you can do that in a system with 30+ people, you get the market all to yourself. The important thing is to ADVERTISE in local, TELL people they can buy everything they need at this one station. Then they wont have to run to Jita to buy ammo, or anything, they'll just buy it from you. Would you buy shaving cream at a drug store if they dont carry razors? No, you'll go to a store that has both. Same thing applies to Ravens. Alot of people praise the Eve market, I think it's quite primitive. I'm amazed they dont have a Fedex system in place to deliver stuff. Then they're surprised when 1000 people show up in Jita. Well where the f*ck else are people supposed to buy a ship? They're gonna buy a ship and fly around for 2 hours buying modules?

Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:28:00 - [41] Why do you need profit? Just buy a GTC!
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:49:00 - [42] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: I make Ravens for 79 million a pop and sell them for 90.5 million in LoneTrek. Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high. So if you got the minerals for free (mined them yourself) you could sell that Raven for 25 million and still make a huge profit? The issue isn't where you get your profit from, the issue is selling ravens at prices less than the minerals would sell for separately. I don't mind myself if people do that, just a lot of them do it based on completely flawed understandings of economics. Wow... reading comprehension FTW. If you mine the minerals they are not FOR FREE! There is opportunity costs involved with making a ship and selling them for less then the minerals are worth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost Read up... This is my Opinion and not that of Black River Industries or any of its members.
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high Or, you could just sell those minerals for more than the raven is worth... Jeez you guys are just not worth the effort to try to explain. Or maybe you are... If I bought these minerals for 79 million then obviously I was able to obtain them right? Pretty obvious, ok. Now I could sell them for 88 million in Jita, maybe, if I babysit my sell orders and its a huge PITA to do that. Or I can make Ravens and sell them from 90.5-92.5 million ISK, make more ISK AND do it easier in my home system. Yeah option #2 please! This is my Opinion and not that of Black River Industries or any of its members.
Soporo ironwood ink Friend or Enemy	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:06:00 - [44] Manufacturing, like most others, is not a n00b/rookie friendly Career in this game. The only way you can maybe make a decent profit as a new manufacturer is to take the cheapest most researched BPc's you can get and go to some 0.0 section that has a crap market, imo.
motomysz Storm Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:10:00 - [45] Cloora and Cyclops43 are both right. Most of the rest of you have no clue.
Snoon University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:12:00 - [46] Greetings I make money making T cruisers and BCs. 20-30 % profits are common place. Heres how you do it: 1)Ensure you have PEV 2)Research BPO up to ME20 3)Find a system that has 30-60 people in, preferably with agents and lots of gates, and has a 10-20 units of said ship being bought a day. a mini hub if you will 4)Consider this:The General rule is not to maximise the sell price of the t1 ship, but minimise your costs, therefore: 5)Set buy orders up for minerals, and t1 mods that drop from missions but have a high recycle value. 6)Build, profit and enjoy.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:21:00 - [47] Originally by: Cloora Originally by: Ulstan So if you got the minerals for free (mined them yourself) you could sell that Raven for 25 million and still make a huge profit? The issue isn't where you get your profit from, the issue is selling ravens at prices less than the minerals would sell for separately. I don't mind myself if people do that, just a lot of them do it based on completely flawed understandings of economics. Wow... reading comprehension FTW. If you mine the minerals they are not FOR FREE! There is opportunity costs involved with making a ship and selling them for less then the minerals are worth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost Read up... that is true, but in the end, your time/effort spent mining is how you make your ISK. if you buy all the minerals, the income instead comes from a net-gain on market trade. so what an industrialist needs to consider is this: if i just buy the minerals, my profit margins are lower but i could potentially build more in the same period of time it would take mine the minerals myself. but often times, gathering up huge amounts of minerals can also involve LOTS of hauling - which is additional overhead (and risk). ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Shakuul Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:32:00 - [48] You CAN make a profit making Ravens. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably wrong or makes ravens . If you sell at the right time you should make between 3 and 5% (about 4mil ISK). It is important that you have good market skills. If you don't the 1% fees will eat at your margins. Additionally I would shoot for ME 30 at least, 50-60 would be even better.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:54:00 - [49] You can make money manufacturing T1 ships, but the margins are pretty thin in market hubs, and you only get an actual profit if you're patient... then again, you could get a similar profit from simply TRADING T1 ships in trade hubs, without having to bother with the actual manufacture. In lowsec, the margins are a bit more relaxed, and you should be already making a relatively decent profit. Go out to a 0.0 NPC station with a factory (assuming you can get there safely with a BPO), and you will be raking in some pretty impressive margins. In other words, like everything in real-life too... "location, location, location". 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Mongolia Jones Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:57:00 - [50] Originally by: Drizit The real point is whether you play this game for fun or to be a tycoon. If your aim is to be a tycoon, you'd be better off playing in RL and making RL money. So your point is that playing a tycoon in eve is not fun? Originally by: Drizit At the end of the day, it's just a game and it's not as if your mortgage is going to be unpaid if you choose to lose isk occasionally. I think you are missing the point. It's like watching someone play any game, there is a way to play better/smarter. People are nice enough to point out your mistakes so that you become better at being a manufacturer, no one has suggested that you become a tycoon. Originally by: Drizit It really takes the fun out of the game to know you have the isk to buy anything you want and never have to strive to obtain it. Speak for yourself. I can afford to buy anything EVE has to offer. I am now having more fun now as a super-wealthy tycoon than at any time. On a side note, it has never bothered me that manufacturers like you make and sell items at or below costs, it keeps more isk in my pockets which always translates to more "fun" for me.

Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Shakuul You CAN make a profit making Ravens. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably wrong or makes ravens . If you sell at the right time you should make between 3 and 5% (about 4mil ISK). It is important that you have good market skills. If you don't the 1% fees will eat at your margins. Additionally I would shoot for ME 30 at least, 50-60 would be even better. for the Raven, the difference in build costs between ME 30 and ME 50 is about 100k ISK. the difference between ME 10 and ME 30 is about 700k ISK. and ME 10 takes about a month to research... ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:29:00 - [52] Originally by: Cloora You don't make you money when you sell, you make money when you buy. This is an often overlooked fact of investing. I make Ravens for 79 million a pop and sell them for 90.5 million in LoneTrek. Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high. Well, that's pretty clear and the usual way for everyone who produces on a larger scale. 11.5 Mil profit on a Raven is really good, I think. I am far below that value in Oursulaert but I do the same like you: buy the minerals low (at station because hauling is time and money) and sell for the possible market price. The more important question is how many Ravens can you build and sell within - let's say - a week? If you sell 3 Ravens for 4 Mil profit or 1 Raven for 11.5 Mil profit in the same time frame the first way is the better one. And this depends more on the location where you are building and selling and the demand at this location. It's easy to make a big profit with a single item neglecting the time you need to acquire the minerals and the time until someone claims your sell order. For instance: In Essence is the (low-sec) Aeschee system which often offers large amounts of low end minerals for the lowest prices in the region (which probably could be even dropped a good bit by setting up buy orders in the system stations). So producing Ravens in Aeschee would be easily possible for very low costs and also selling them for high prices (because it's low sec). But you won't sell a lot of Ravens per week compared to the high sec trade hubs in Essence because there are simply more customers and even some people living in low sec will fly the 5 jumps or so to save 6 or 7 Mil ISK (if they can/are not red). On the other side it can last a long time until very low buy orders at a trade hub like Oursulaert are fulfilled. There is a lot of competition not only in selling stuff but also in acquiring minerals which actually creates a lower limit for realistic buy orders (like there is an upper limit for realistic sell orders). If you don't have the minerals to build your goods since the low buy orders are not fulfilled fast enough and you don't have a constant flow of mineral acquisition, producing and selling you also can lose money, depending on the ratio of profit per item and mineral acquisition time (or "idle" time where you don't have the built items to setup sell orders due to missing minerals). If you have this constant flow in Lonetrek and sell for 11.5 Mil profit as many Ravens per week as in the big trade hubs then you have found a really good place for business (concerning mineral supply and demand). It can't be only explained by the strategy of buying raw materials for low prices, in my opinion.
Drizit FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:51:00 - [53] Edited by: Drizit on 08/04/2008 18:52:46 Originally by: Ulstan I don't mind myself if people do that, just a lot of them do it based on completely flawed understandings of economics. A lot of people play this game to have fun, not to earn an economics degree. If my wallet is fatter after selling a Raven (for example), than it was before I started mining for the minerals to build it, I have made a profit as far as I'm concerned. All this time=isk and would selling minerals on the market get me more turns a game into a tedious job. Also, many have not thought that selling=time and if time=isk, your minerals are worth less anyway. Ravens sell pretty quick but selling minerals takes more time, especially those that can be mined locally. If I can get 90mil in my wallet in two or three days selling a raven, why would I want to wait a month or more to sell the minerals for 97mil? If you take into consideration transporting the minerals to fill buy orders, that takes time as well. Similarly devaluing the profit margin. In the time it takes to work out which is going to return the larger profit, you could have probably built and sold the Raven anyway. -- Freighters need a tank
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:07:00 - [54] Originally by: Drizit A lot of people play this game to have fun, not to earn an economics degree. If mining is somebody's idea of fun, they have bigger issues than a poor understanding of economics. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:39:00 - [55] I am not saying the minerals a free for manufacturers that mine their own minerals, but the pricing of those minerals is definately different if you consider the possibility that the time that they are mining is quite possibly AFK when they would typically not be making any isk. So my question to all you economists is in this case how would one price their own mined minerals. That is, how should one price their minerals, that were aquired with time that would otherwise be profitless time off of the computer? Slade
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:47:00 - [56] Originally by: Slade Trillgon That is, how should one price their minerals, that were aquired with time that would otherwise be profitless time off of the computer? Minerals are worth exactly as much as somebody is willing to pay for them. It's THAT simple. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
CogInTheWheel School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:55:00 - [57] Originally by: Letouk Mernel There is no profit. You will lose money. Here's why: 1. The Raven is a tech 1 ship, and there are literally thousands of people who have maximized their manufacturing skills to higher than what you have, and who have blueprints researched to more than your ME 20. They can make it cheaper than you can. 2. Everyone sells minerals in Jita cause they are the most profitable (most expensive) there. 3. Everyone buys ships in Jita because they are the cheapest there. If you really want to make and sell that Raven and make profit, then what you need to do is get minerals for cheaper (set up buy orders in the outskirts of space, not in Jita, and buy at 2.40 instead of 3.00 for example), and then also try to sell the Raven near to where it's needed (find a mission hub like Motsu or others that are even farther away from Jita, and sell the Raven there). Even then it will be hard. People go for T2 ships these days, not obsolete tech like the Raven. All you hear about is HACs, CNRs, etc etc. 2) Not everyone sells minerals in Jita, I'd say with the amount of resellers in Jita,many of the mins just get sold over and over, raising the price a little each time. 3) Not true. Most times I go 'to Jita' I never make it because I find what I want cheaper along the way. Jita might have the best selection, certainly not the best prices.
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:59:00 - [58] building T1 ships, with limited exceptions, will not "make" a profit. The increased bankroll, if any, will be subsidized by some other activity. It's like the prostitute's dilemma: "It's hard to earn an honest living when so many amateurs are giving it away...." The World According To Gort -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Nielas Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:02:00 - [59] Edited by: Nielas on 08/04/2008 20:04:01 Originally by: Slade Trillgon That is, how should one price their minerals, that were aquired with time that would otherwise be profitless time off of the computer? Slade Since we define the opportunity cost of mining the minerals to be effectively zero then you have to base it off the opportunity cost of the effort needed to sell them. If there is a station within your 'trading comfort distance' where you can sell the ore then that stations buy price becomes the price of the ore. Then you expand your search radius to further stations. When you find a station with a higher buy price you consider if the diffenrential between the old high price and the new price is worth the effort to ship the ore there (eg not gonna add 4 jumps to my travel for an extra 1k of profit). At a certain point the opportunity cost of the extra travel time and additional risk of piracy will become greater than the opportunity profit of selling for a bit more ISK. When you find that you are not willing to go further or put more effort into selling the ore then the last 'acceptable' price is what the ore is worth to you.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:02:00 - [60] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Slade Trillgon That is, how should one price their minerals, that were aquired with time that would otherwise be profitless time off of the computer? Minerals are worth exactly as much as somebody is willing to pay for them. It's THAT simple. No joke, your kidding me right. What I am talking about is how others say my minerals are free since I mined. While others others say no they are not you are selling you ship at a loss since you are not counting your time to mine the minerals into the sale price. If a pilot mines mins AFK (during time where they would otherwise not be online making zero isk) and then sells the ship below mineral price one does not need to calculate mineral price into their sale price as heavily since their time otherwise would not have made any isk. Does this make any since or am a blowing hot air?

Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:31:00 - [61] Edited by: Alora Venoda on 08/04/2008 22:37:55 Originally by: Slade Trillgon No joke, your kidding me right. What I am talking about is how others say my minerals are free since I mined. While others others say no they are not you are selling you ship at a loss since you are not counting your time to mine the minerals into the sale price. If a pilot mines mins AFK (during time where they would otherwise not be online making zero isk) and then sells the ship below mineral price one does not need to calculate mineral price into their sale price as heavily since their time otherwise would not have made any isk. EDIT: I know that these manufactures could sell the minerals for more isk, butif their end game is to produce then them selling their ships at lower then mineral cost is not truely selling at a loss since they do not truely spend ingame time mining. Does this make any since or am a blowing hot air? Slade i think i understand your argument. but you can't truly mine AFK unless you macro... however, many times i mine for a long time SEMI-afk when i would not otherwise be playing EVE at all or just sitting idle in a station to chat or something. and so it sounds like your argument is that your profit margin on this "cheap ore" might be better than "normal ore" because you obtained it via "outsourcing" kind of... but ore in hand is still worth what you can sell it for. it does not make sense to take 90 mill worth of minerals, no matter how you obtained it, and then turn around and sell it for 80 mill. if you obtained it apart from direct purchase (ie- mining, reprocessing trash loot, ore theft), then your wallet will always show a gain regardless, but you still missed out on 10 mill that you could have made by selling the raw materials. comparing mining to manufacturing "profit" is really like comparing apples and oranges. to make sense of this you have to break it up into two separate transactions: 1) mine and sell minerals (to yourself) 2) buy the minerals (from yourself) then build a product and sell it since the mining process is pure acquisition you can only calculate ISK/hr or whatever. but manufacturing is basically a form of trade, and you can lose ISK if you sell for less than the market value of the minerals. in that case, it would be better to just sell the raw materials. even if you had STOLEN the ore, and got it all for free, you still want to turn it into the most ISK possible... which means building the product with the highest profit margin over the raw material value. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:40:00 - [62] Alora Venoda beat me to the punch. To reiterate, for every manufacture job (especially for those with "minerals from ore you mined yourself"), you have to split the process into two parts : 1. Buying the minerals/components from yourself (at the price you would have sold them to somebody else) - that's not manufacture profit, that's mining income 2. Selling the manufactured end-product, and computing the profit of this step alone as sales value minus value from point 1 If 2 is not profitable, skip it altogether. Still, if you feel charitable and like giving ISK away, then by all means, do it. Somebody will pick up your ship, recycle it, and sell the minerals. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:53:00 - [63] Alora and Akita for the 1-2 combo and a knock out. Point made and recieved. Slade
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:00:00 - [64] According to BC's current mineral prices, the build cost for a Raven is about 84,086,729.95 ISK/Unit. Selling it for a 10% profit would be 92,495,402.95 ISK/Unit. That is for a BPO with ME:24. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Wet Ferret Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:00:00 - [65] Originally by: Akita T Alora Venoda beat me to the punch. To reiterate, for every manufacture job (especially for those with "minerals from ore you mined yourself"), you have to split the process into two parts : 1. Buying the minerals/components from yourself (at the price you would have sold them to somebody else) - that's not manufacture profit, that's mining income 2. Selling the manufactured end-product, and computing the profit of this step alone as sales value minus value from point 1 If 2 is not profitable, skip it altogether. Still, if you feel charitable and like giving ISK away, then by all means, do it. Somebody will pick up your ship, recycle it, and sell the minerals. And if the time to sell the minerals is 10x longer than it would take to sell a built ship, then what is it's value then? I have about 300mil worth of minerals that I could use to build three Ravens with for about 270mil. I bet it would take me a month or more to sell all of those minerals via sell orders (they are worth much, much less if sold to the highest buy order). And probably less than a week to sell three Ravens (90 mil would be a couple mil lower than average in the region I live in). Making the ships bring in slightly less isk, for a lot less work because I don't have to pay attention to the market and screw with sell orders or haul to the nearest HUB because my minerals are worth even less if I try to sell them a few systems out. In short, building ships and selling "at a loss" is not only completely justified in my situation, but IMHO not a loss at all. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:03:00 - [66] Like I said... "Minerals are worth exactly as much as somebody is willing to pay for them. It's THAT simple." I should have probably added the following, however... "At that specific location. Within a certain timeframe." Devil's in the details, as they say. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Rebal 88 Deep Space Consortium Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:07:00 - [67] Build Sell ??? Profit ya idk
Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:40:00 - [68] Edited by: Quelque Chose on 08/04/2008 23:40:17 Originally by: Wet Ferret I have about 300mil worth of minerals that I could use to build three Ravens with for about 270mil. I bet it would take me a month or more to sell all of those minerals via sell orders (they are worth much, much less if sold to the highest buy order). Yeah, if you're trying to get regional avg. + 50% from a sell order then sure it's going to take you some time. If you value your minerals that way then my iteron III full of pyerite is worth upwards of 6bn, isn't it? I always calculate my margin based on highest buy order that I would actually sell to on the date of manufacture. If you really want to be stuffy about it you can use regional average instead or even one of the mineral indexes people have put up. But to say that it's just okeydokey to sell a Raven for 30m because you can't get 700 isk/ unit for isogen this week is to deny common sense. And yes that's an absurdified version of what you're saying but then again I think that what you're saying is stretching the matter to absurd limits already.
Wet Ferret Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:32:00 - [69] Edited by: Wet Ferret on 09/04/2008 01:32:47 Originally by: Quelque Chose Edited by: Quelque Chose on 08/04/2008 23:40:17 Originally by: Wet Ferret I have about 300mil worth of minerals that I could use to build three Ravens with for about 270mil. I bet it would take me a month or more to sell all of those minerals via sell orders (they are worth much, much less if sold to the highest buy order). Yeah, if you're trying to get regional avg. + 50% from a sell order then sure it's going to take you some time. If you value your minerals that way then my iteron III full of pyerite is worth upwards of 6bn, isn't it? What are you on about? I said 300 mil worth of minerals not "300 mil worth of minerals that I will try to sell for 450 mil". I go by lowest SELL orders (or what I think is reasonable but close to the best sell order) because the best buy orders are usually A) not very good prices to begin with, B) not enough volume to match my supply or C) out in low-sec where I am definitely not taking a hauler full of minerals. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:58:00 - [70] You people that keep thinking the minerals you mine are for free are killing me. I mine, obviously, look at my sig. BUT! You have to PAY yourself for time spent mining. I don't care if you do it with 3 alts full time like I do, or you do it semi-AFK with one hulk and Cargo expanders and rigs (if I set mine up like that I can walk away for 15 minutes before I have to come back). Either way, if you can sell the minerals on SELL orders on the market for more then you can if you spend the ISK on either a BPO and research it or buy BPCs off contracts and build a ship then you are doing something wrong. Building a ship is not fun in itself. Its click click and wait 3 hours ding! its done. BUT if you do it right then you make oodles of ISK. looks at her wallet yeah trust me. 1) You need Production Efficiency level 5 2) You either need a researched BPO or you need to buy BPC off contracts. ME 25 would be good 3) A hauler to get enough minerals for what you are buying. (Freighters are wonderful and not too risky with an alt webber) 4) A mission running station that is busy, but not too busy as to have tons of other people competing for business. Now once you have a decent bankroll to start with. Let's say one billion ISK after you have some BPCs or a BPO (researched) then you can start doing buy orders for minerals. Play with the market, buy as low as you can in a range comfertable for you to haul in (I only set 2 jumps buy orders myself) and keep an eye open for changes in others buy orders that may be over yours. Don't panic if you find a station buy order in your range that is a lot higher then yours. You decide if it is worth it to forfeit that station until his buy order fills. If someone is fighting you on a range that takes a big chunk of your area you have to be careful and decide how high you want to adjust. You have an obvious advantage if you can babysit your order and adjust it on the penny right after your competitor does. This ensures your order is on top most of the time and fills first. Once all your orders are filled gather it all up. Produce said ships. Sell according to market demand. Remember, if no one is selling what you are selling in that station, you can set a higher price then other station in the system or in nearby systems. Why? Because you are at the station that the mission running agent is in, and people are lazy and will pay more to not have to move. But be reasonable still or your stuff never sells. PROFIT! I can't make Ravens and Drakes as fast as they sell. It is a lucrative business and I should not be giving away all these tips to my competitors but ah well. I'm a nice guy. This is my Opinion and not that of Black River Industries or any of its members.

Lord Fitz	Posted - 2008.04.09 05:23:00 - [71] Originally by: Slade Trillgon EDIT: I know that these manufactures could sell the minerals for more isk, butif their end game is to produce then them selling their ships at lower then mineral cost is not truely selling at a loss since they do not truely spend ingame time mining. Their wallet doesn't go down, but they would be making money mining, and losing money by turning valuable minerals into a less valuable ship using a BPO/BPC. There's only one advantage to selling a built ship over the minerals seperately in the case where you get less for the ship than the minerals, and that is if selling the ship is easier than selling the minerals, or if you can sell the ship in 0.0, but to get that value for the minerals you would have to haul back to empire etc. Basically where the process of turning it into a ship saves you more time micromanaging orders/moving things than it costs you in lost income. Generally though, in empire, most minerals are easier to sell than ships, as ships have a specific market, only people looking for that one ship (out of a few hundred), whereas minerals sell to anyone who wants to build any of thousands of items. Once you get to quieter markets though, the ships become slightly easier to sell (less builders) and the minerals harder to sell (less builders). Which means alot more profit usually, but not always, it only takes one builder who thinks his minerals are free to make it not worth you building you can sell them the minerals, have them do the work and just profit. It would be like people moon mining and selling the minerals for less than the cost of the fuel, the end result is you get the moon minerals, but if you could buy them for less than the fuel cost why would you go to all that effort of maintaing a POS to make a LOSS ! Now in this market you actually get some people that have another reason, and the mining of the minerals is incidental as they have the tower up anyway so anything they get back simply offsets the loss they were going to make, which explains why some sell for less than their production cost.
cal nereus	Posted - 2008.04.09 05:30:00 - [72] Sell ships in 0.0, and you'll be golden. In high-sec, only the most efficient of producers can really hope to make a profit, and even then, some ship prices are at a stage at which none of the sellers are making a profit right now. That doesn't stop some of them from making the ships though... good for the buyers at least. --- Join BH-DL Skills
Quelque Chose	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:01:00 - [73] Originally by: Wet Ferret What are you on about? I said 300 mil worth of minerals not "300 mil worth of minerals that I will try to sell for 450 mil". I go by lowest SELL orders (or what I think is reasonable but close to the best sell order) because the best buy orders are usually A) not very good prices to begin with, B) not enough volume to match my supply or C) out in low-sec where I am definitely not taking a hauler full of minerals. goes over regional mineral market for about the third time today You're just making this **** up as you go, aren't you? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.09 09:14:00 - [74] Originally by: Quelque Chose Originally by: Wet Ferret What are you on about? I said 300 mil worth of minerals not "300 mil worth of minerals that I will try to sell for 450 mil". I go by lowest SELL orders (or what I think is reasonable but close to the best sell order) because the best buy orders are usually A) not very good prices to begin with, B) not enough volume to match my supply or C) out in low-sec where I am definitely not taking a hauler full of minerals. goes over regional mineral market for about the third time today You're just making this **** up as you go, aren't you? Yeah, you're right. I forgot that we all live in the same region. Silly me. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Cloora You people have no idea how to run an investment. You don't make you money when you sell, you make money when you buy. This is an often overlooked fact of investing. I make Ravens for 79 million a pop and sell them for 90.5 million in LoneTrek. Its buying the minerals cheap is how you make the ISK. Not selling ships high. You people need to read up on some investment materials and educate on how it works. my figures say damn near the same thing (only they are a bit old, so I didn't want to use them)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:09:00 - [76] oh, and i stopped mining (on my alt, chainsaw has mining lv1 ftw!) and started mission running as it got me that isk faster. reprocessing t1 loot and drone alloys gets me a better amount of minerals (or at least it feels like it, seem to get about 1000m3 of loots for most missions, drone or pirates)


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