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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:37:00 -
[1]
Having an army of forum alts suddenly tracking my every post, completely ignoring the content of them and throwing stuff like
 Quote:
Most of your posts are little more than flames or accusations, the only difference is that you want to make a fool out yourself in front of everyone reading.
at me without any basis what so ever I thought I might just this one time oblige them with a nice fat post.
I'm expecting the same replies from my "forum posse" though but hey, I have a few minutes free and not many FA topics are open at this moment.
One disclaimer before we start, before the coup d'etat was made I had all ready left the FA as I had joined Jericho Fraction. Neither I nor Jericho Fraction have any intention of taking a part in the war in Fountain or over control of Fountain. In fact Jericho doesn't recognize the territorial claim of any alliance while recognizing the alliances themselves as entities.
Having more background information and current information than many of those that are watching these events unfold I think of it as my journalistic duty to inform the forum reading public of EVE. As in real life, more is written about the wars and struggles than about the peaceful times, even if there has been more of the latter than the former.
I'm presenting facts within my commentary, I'm striving to not to taint it with a bias towards any side. Most of my commentary is at the last page, my observations are based on events past and present, I have no personal agenda in promoting either side of the Fountain wars.
Now let the proper post begin. |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:37:00 -
[2]
The History of the first Fountain Alliance
Once upon a time there was not a single alliance in game. Then Stain is formed as the first alliance. Up in Fountain many corporations are running around, mining bistot, killing the resident Serpentis and just getting along very fine thank you. A pilot getting into trouble with a NPC spawn asks for help on Local and nearly every time others come to the rescue.
Every one is living the 0.0 dream of riches earned through effort. Any dispute is usually solved in a peaceful gentlemanly manner.
One day as the pilots continue their lives a fleet of EVOL ships show up in MN5N-X. They jump to an asteroid belt where your average Fountain resident is happily minding his own business and open fire without any prior warning.
The pilot sees overwhelming odds and so legs it away as fast as possible. The next few hours others are not as lucky as pilots are shot down by EVOL. After asking Shrike just what the effin is going on the answer given is "a corporation has paid Evolution to clear Fountain of unwanted corporations". A warning is finally given out in Local and spread through the rest of the Fountain area by it's residents.
Some corporations start to move their forces out, others just move non-PVP pilots to safer space. Fountain residents are not exactly happy about how things have suddenly become but knowing that in 0.0 you might have to resort to violence to deal with problems they start to band together.
It becomes clear that the major player behind Evolutions killing spree is Xanadu. A force of Xanadu and Evolution ships starts to gather in MN5N-X while a jump or two away the residents are forming their own fleet.
Smaller forces collide every now and then but a big battle is on the cards. The Fountain residents jump into MN5N-X and engage the Evolution/Xanadu fleet. The Fountain fleet has more ships but Evol/Xan manage to minimize losses by repeatedly docking to regain shields and capacitator.
The larger numbers win the day for the Fountain residents. Seeing the amount of opposition they face the representatives of Xanadu start talks with most of the corporations that opposed them. Long and hard fights are fought in the channels of the residents and in the negotiation rooms but finally an agreement is made to create a Fountain Alliance, which will be ruled according to democratic ideals and a constitution.
Some corporations strongly oppose the formation of an alliance in Fountain and leave the area, others welcome the formation with open arms and many begrudgingly accept that being inside the alliance might benefit them more than being outside it.
The constitution has several details on how to accept members, how decisions are taken etc. but the spirit is that Fountain is governed by a democratic alliance, one which loathes piracy.
Time goes by, visits by m0o, RUS and Sinister keep the occupants occupied occasionally and show the need for a strong defence. Fountain becomes a peaceful 0.0 area, small incursions hardly nuisance the residents and several Fountain corporations start looking around for more PVP action. They set sails for CA.
Time goes by. Some CA forces counter with an incursion into FA space and there is a skirmish or two, just the regular 0.0 occurrences. |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 -
[3]
Interlude - HHI and XAN
Harbinger Heavy Industries were among the corporations that had settled in the Fountain area prior to the alliance formation. It was a close friend of Tycho Heavy Industries, when Tycho became the victim of a corporation theft a number of Tycho pilots joined Harbinger. Tycho had 3 battleships at the fights against XAN/EVOL in MN5N-X back in the old days and took an active part in Fountain matters.
When arkonor and bistot started respawning properly HHI and Xanadu found themselves mining the same hidden belts of arkonor time and time again. The Fountain rules proposed that no asteroid belt can be claimed by a corporation, but that while pilots from the corporation are active in the asteroid belt (mining, killing npc) it is their right to ask others to leave it. HHI and Xanadu developed some bad blood as they competed for the arkonor riches, the dispute became so heated (both corporations had people that jumped their mouths) that the FA council had to rule on it, where they re-iterated the above mentioned rule.
Coupled with HHI and Xanadu often disagreeing during votes and debates on council meetings these two corporations became the least of friends. Many other sources for the frustration between those two corporations can be found but we leave it at that to make a longer story not even longer. |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Riddari on 15/04/2004 14:39:56
The second Fountain Alliance
The second Fountain Alliance still rules the Fountain region, it has a few of the original founders of the first Fountain Alliance but also many new faces. While it can declare itself to be a democracy it surely must accept that actions such as this harsh method of expelling corporations without a democratical process casts a huge shadow over any claims of democracy.
To quote Detaitiv (executive member of BIG)
Quote:
extrademocractic action needed to be taken
Any corporation within the second Fountain Alliance surely must hope that it does not become the victim of an "extrademocratic action" one day.
Epilogue
Xanadu and BIG are the two largest corporations within the second Fountain Alliance. Xanadu are a feared force both in economics and fighting, BIG are a financial heavyweight. Being the two largest players in the whole process naturally puts the focus on them.
Personally I don't care if the second Fountain Alliance is ruled by the iron fists of Xanadu and BIG, by an Emperor of the Eve Marshals or by a council. I just don't want to see them flying the flag of democracy as their cover when they have shown it does not apply. I also don't care if Rev0lution and allies take control.
I do respect BIG & XAN, I have fought against Xanadu and I have fought alongside them both, I have been the only non-XAN pilot in a couple of their gangs and respect their power and skill.
But the truth must be free, history should not only be written by the winners (for the moment being the second Fountain Alliance) and the losers (for the moment those ousted) but also by those who were there and have the knowledge.
I'm Riddari, this was my post on the past and current events within the Fountain region, my aim is to draw a big picture for the general EVE population, so several details are omitted for clarity.
*edit: fixed link
¼©¼
a history |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 -
[5]
One day some members of m0o decide to venture into FA space to have some fun. They down a couple of ships and start to meet resistance. More m0o start to venture up to FA space and the FA starts to set up a blockade with the forces not fighting in CA space. Battles take place in Z30S-A at the entry point to YZ-LQL, the "capital" system of Fountain. The size of the FA forces and the dreaded lagdevil prevent m0o from gaining entry. Some ships are downed around the area.
One morning Fountain residents wake up with m0o suddenly inside YZ-LQL. Seeing how the twin forces of Fountain and lagdevil made their entry impossible during regular game hours some m0o pilots resorted to log in during the night to enter YZ-LQL unopposed. A tactical decision which paid off.
Now forces start to trickle in from m0o friends, including the corporations of the then Foresaken Empire. Fountain forces become outnumbered in their own home system. Seeing how things have become out of control back in Fountain some corporations start to recall their forces from CA space to deal with matters in their home system.
Gradually a pattern emerges, with more FA forces on during European hours Fountain is FA-held at those times, with m0o/FE having more forces on during US hours Fountain is in their grabs at those times.
m0o start to trickle out, fighting in Fountain has become war of the blobs and very boring. Often over 200 people are in local in YZ-LQL. Occasional battles between 50+ ships on either side but most are long range and ships manage to warp out damaged so no great losses. Most of the losses are inflicted when solo pilots are jumped on.
With m0o leaving the FA gets even more control, Foresaken Empire and allies are fighting a losing battle and start to head out, their final gesture being a fleet of 20 or so battleships escorting 3 industrials back home. FA member Species8247 of Damage Inc makes a kamikazi attack on one of the industrials and manages to obliterate it while dying valiantly. The industrial in question probably contained something of value as some very naughty words are exchanged in the local chat.
The FA meetings have grown hotter and hotter. Some corporations promptly moved out of Fountain space as soon as the trouble started, others moved their forces to Fountain to take part in the defense. A rift between those who fought and fought and those that mined instead is forming, accusations fly around and everyone pretty much agrees that the council has to try to get things in order to be able to counter similar incursions in the future.
More structure is made for the patrols and other amendments made. One of the most vocal voices for the FA to change and actually behave more in cohesion belongs to Shard of HHI. |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 -
[6]
The death of Fountain democracy
HHI had become unpopular with BIG and Xanadu for various reasons of their own. A couple of times votes were held to expel HHI from the Fountain Alliance, not enough votes were counted for it so no such expulsion occurred. Seeing that democracy only gets you as far as the number of votes you have behind you several corporations decided to "clean out" the Fountain Alliance and "restructure" it.
By making a coup d'etat, where a number of corporations claimed the right as rulers of Fountain and published a list of undesirable corporations and KOS corporations, they found themselves to have the best solution in their eyes. Harsh terms were set, a lockdown was ordered and FA members taking part in patrols were suddenly KOS to their fellow patrolmen and women. Several pilots who had fought wars and lost ships on behalf of the Fountain Alliance were unceremoniously shot down by the new FA rulers and Evolution friends.
The first Fountain Alliance was based upon democratic ideals and a constitution. The first Fountain Alliance died when the democratic process was eliminated.
The second Fountain Alliance (by some referred to as the New Fountain Alliance) still claims to adhere to the constitution and to be democratic in nature. Clearly what has happened once can happen again so any corporation that wishes to gain entry into the second Fountain Alliance should do well to remember that.
A number of the corporations ousted in the coup had indeed not taken active part in the defense of Fountain, some had not contributed more than a couple battleship out of a whole fleet. Others however had taken more active part than the majority of those that are still within the alliance.
Any Alliance depends upon its members taking active part, the removal of dead weight has happened in Fountain before, through democratic processes as the majority agreed that the corporation in question at the time had not what the Alliance desired. It has never before had to resort to violence to oust an inactive corporation, so any words about dead weight are the be taken with a bucket of salt.
The first Fountain Alliance existed for 9 months and many corporations joined and left during that time, never before though in this manner. |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:43:00 -
[7]
Your the Man Riddari!  
"We brake for nobody"
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StoreSlem
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:53:00 -
[8]
Edited by: StoreSlem on 15/04/2004 14:55:45
I'd just like to comment, that on the creation of FA you correctly state that EVOL said they were clearing the area for another corporation.
However, just as did the other 4-5 corporations that were involved, including Xanadu and it was of course all a deception that retrospectively can be misinterpreted.
*spelling error fix
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sutty
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:53:00 -
[9]
to much to read HELP ARGHHHHHHH 
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Ayako
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Posted - 2004.04.15 14:55:00 -
[10]
Thank you for all the hard work put into this post, I must say it was much needed and very enlightening and it does give a different perspective on the current events in Fountain.
Very nice work!
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Slam
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:08:00 -
[11]
Riddari you truly deserve credit for this summary!
You clearly tried to present an unbiased and neutral recap of the events during the last 6 months. Some of it is naturally based on a point of view and the knowledge available.
However I would like to interject something on behalf of BIG:
We are certainly no financal heavyweights (compared to some) nor are we a pvp force to fear. What we bring to the table is a true desire to make the organization FA function as a whole. to that end we field some extremely level headed leaders.
We did not consider any corporations in the FA our enemies. However the last 2 months clearly showed a rift beginning to form in FA. It was becoming obvious that no amount of diplomacy could bring us back on track.
Steps were taken. People can always debate the metod used but the aim was to revive the FA as a body capable of surviving in the ever harsher frontier environment.
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:09:00 -
[12]
I'm going to edit the title into : A history of Fountain Alliance.
And I wish to add that they way people perceive history depends on their view and experience, thus everyone is free to write their own account of what happend.
I hope this will reduce the amount of flames and trolling.
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
Olympus Nemus
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:11:00 -
[13]
I must say this is a VERY nice post.
You've shared your opinions on events within the eve community well, good job.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:11:00 -
[14]
Quote:
I'm going to edit the title into : A history of Fountain Alliance.
For the historical records, the initial title was "Due to popular demand, big fat Fountain post" 
¼©¼
a history |
Duraeli
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:13:00 -
[15]
Ah ha! I finally understand this mess now.
Riddari, thank you very much for your expertly written history of the FA and your report on the current situation there. I have never been a big fan of alliance "occupied" space, but I am not one to attempt to contest that occupation.
Hopefully things will be sorted out on both fronts however...
----------------------------------------------
"He that will not apply new remedies must expect new evils; for time is the greatest innovator." -Unknown
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:22:00 -
[16]
This is not a flame.
Dude, why did you skip everything from the formation of the alliance, till the m0o invasion?
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Embrace Death
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:27:00 -
[17]
CoRM was one of those corperations kicked and put on KOS that had actually defended FA more than many of those in NFA do now.
Let me state for the books, corperations were kicked and put on KOS by NFA not based on their productivity or good for the alliance, but for how their votes counted against Xanadu. That is the only thing that got CORM kicked and put on KOS. As to why we were backstabbed with a KOS and not given time to leave, I don't know. I can honestly say that if Xanadu wouldn't have put us on KOS we would have left withing a day or so and never come back.. |
Bizarre
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:30:00 -
[18]
Quote:
CoRM was one of those corperations kicked and put on KOS that had actually defended FA more than many of those in NFA do now.
Let me state for the books, corperations were kicked and put on KOS by NFA not based on their productivity or good for the alliance, but for how their votes counted against Xanadu. That is the only thing that got CORM kicked and put on KOS. As to why we were backstabbed with a KOS and not given time to leave, I don't know. I can honestly say that if Xanadu wouldn't have put us on KOS we would have left withing a day or so and never come back..
Please leave such comments out of this thread. It was not written for it.
-------------------------------------------------
Deathwing > U LIKE THOSE NUTS ON YA CHIN?
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Beringe
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:31:00 -
[19]
Kudos, Riddari. Very nice read.
-------------------------------------------
"My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead."
"No, it's none of your business." |
Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:33:00 -
[20]
nice post riddari, wonderfully done.
______________________
What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 15:53:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Dude, why did you skip everything from the formation of the alliance, till the m0o invasion?
This post is the "textbook" version of the history of the FA.
Yes, this is the short version.
Much detail is left out, there are indeed large gaps of history in it and that is how it always is when such a short version is written.
Anyone wishing to write their own version is naturally encouraged to do so, emphasizing for example the large gap that you asked about.
¼©¼
a history |
Finderne
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Posted - 2004.04.15 16:11:00 -
[22]
gj Riddari. I never did know why XAN and HHI started hating each other. Figures it was over hidden ark 
Species deserves a chapter for himself. Before he saw the light, he was a Don Quixote flying around in a 2xMWD BS shooting up unwary Fountainites. One night he was playing cat and mouse with a big posse in a core system; he warped to a belt and shot down someone who was chaining NPC's (despite repeated alerts) before continuing his flight.
Oh and Prophet was right, you skipped stuff like FA vs SIN/RUS/COW and the time they ganked a huge FA fleet at a JIP trap, and FA vs CA shortly after that. And EVOL leaving FA too.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.15 16:13:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Oh and Prophet was right, you skipped stuff like FA vs SIN/RUS/COW and the time they ganked a huge FA fleet at a JIP trap, and FA vs CA shortly after that. And EVOL leaving FA too.
Well, I did put a small paragraph about it:
Quote:
Time goes by, visits by m0o, RUS and Sinister keep the occupants occupied occasionally and show the need for a strong defence. Fountain becomes a peaceful 0.0 area, small incursions hardly nuisance the residents and several Fountain corporations start looking around for more PVP action. They set sails for CA.
¼©¼
a history |
Remo Williams
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Posted - 2004.04.15 16:20:00 -
[24]
Excellent post Riddari!
*f3ar teh Rev0luti0n*
http://www.hydr4.com |
Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.04.15 16:40:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 15/04/2004 17:31:56
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 15/04/2004 16:59:20
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 15/04/2004 16:49:07
Kudos for the very well written text.
Without trying to start another flamefest i would like to add that your view to the prior-coup-situation in the FA is abit tainted and i would like to clear it up abit from my view.
Youre description of the moo/fe invasion stated that FA came out as a winner but we prevented ourself from clearing out our own closet. You stated further, that some corps fled to empire to avoid fighting and the FA agreed to take steps against those unwilling to fight. Now the flaw appeared in the democratic understanding of the FA. The voting system counted abstain votes as NO which additionally to the 2/3rd majority and with some nice political manuvering left not much space for any serious decisions anymore in the FA-council. Many corps who were on the way to be exspelled voted no and persuaded others with the fear of "you are the next" to vote abstain or no aswell which putted a major dent into the democracy in Fountain. Openly boards were filled with treason (covered with the "free speech" wording) and flamefests of opposing sides, accusing without proof other members of illegal actions and crimes. Democracy reached its downpoint when a 3h meeting ended without any productive outcome and a vote if votes should take place was held. Leaving any image of serious decisionmaking as a farce.
While the FA limited the voices of the big corps to prevent any "big vs small" conflicts within its corp-base it became apparent that the side of the inactives or destructive corps could hinder and stagnate any decisionfinding process.
While i agree that membersize should not entirely dictate how influential you are it creates on the otherhand a mockery of democracy if ppl who never leave empire and have not participate in huge numbers or with alot of actions are allowed to take the lead over those who basically have to pay the bills.
Especially on the background of certain corps complaining about their losses in the previous war it seems ridiculous that the very same ppl used their democratic power to prevent the FA to reimbruse them and immideately shifting the blame on the corps chairing the council ( You might not understand what the permanently weekly long flaming and attempts of badmouthing can do to the tensionlevel in a corp but i can tell you alot of members were unhappy with it and asked for steps to be taken)
As a direct result more and more tension grew within the borders and it became appearend that the semi-democratic (and yes with this voting rules and the permanent stagnating and internal flaming it was not a democracy anymore because not everyone had the intention anymore to find a solution -like actively avoiding a councilmeeting to prevent a subject from beeing discussed in your absence) system was on its knees.
The corps with the most influence and who took most of the pressure decided to reform the FA on their own behalf.
Note that this reformation was not aimed as "a few vs the rest" but infact reflecting the majority of pilots in the FA borders alongside a majority of Corps (numberwise).
How you want to see this revolution from inside remains your own business.
Since our attitude towards our allies and towards passholders hasnt changed and additionally our reworked democratic-internal system is nearly in place, i will ask you further to grant us the same right to establish our state-form and judge us once the chaos of changes is over.
We apologized towards those corps who accidentally suffered in the tides of changes and on the background of the ongoing pr- campaigns, dirtfights and wild accusations i hope you can understand the tension inside our pilots aswell which leads to mistakes noone can call himself free of.
People who accepted that were reibruised and got their equipment replaced, others who tried to make profit werent.
As a conclusion i must say that the changes in fountain mostly affected corps who had no desire to participate in the project FA anymore and i will not dare to admit that maybe some choices were harsh and certain ppl could have deserved a 2nd chance. But also i will state that a new beginning needs a secure base and sometimes in the haste of clearing out you throw away something that had still some worth to replace it with something new. Changes are not always a bad thing and i for myslef, look forward to a new restructured FA, where everyone is friends again, in the spirit of the old FA you mentioned earlier. No backhand deals, no paid pirates, no flaming, no stagnation. I come in a belt, find friends and help them chaining npcs.
How it was, how it now is and hopefully how it will be for a long time.
Disclaimer:
Please note that this is no official FA statement, im only displaying my own beliefes and opinions and i did not intend to flame anyone. I enjoyed r
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.04.15 17:04:00 -
[26]
Nice post Chim. It serves to balance a good post by Ridarri who is admittedly anti-reconstituted-FA (while chim would naturally be pro-reconstituted-FA).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Kronarty
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Posted - 2004.04.15 17:12:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Edited by: StoreSlem on 15/04/2004 14:55:45
I'd just like to comment, that on the creation of FA you correctly state that EVOL said they were clearing the area for another corporation.
However, just as did the other 4-5 corporations that were involved, including Xanadu and it was of course all a deception that retrospectively can be misinterpreted.
*spelling error fix
For the sake of historical accuracy: Am I right if I say that the event leading to the creation of FA was called "Operation Phoenix" or something along those lines?
Thanks for confirming/denying this in case I am right/wrong.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.04.15 17:13:00 -
[28]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 15/04/2004 17:20:52
You make it seem like we left because you got an influx of pilots to outnumber us and make us leave. In reality, you just sat around for the last week, ordered not to fight, our only kills being ganks on pilots that don't pay attention.
You make it seem way more even that it really was. It wasn't that we were hesitant to fight greater odds, it was that you told us in local everyday that your strategy was to bore us to death in safespots until we left. It worked, but I wouldn't call it victory
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.04.15 17:22:00 -
[29]
Im sorry bobghengiskhan if it sounded like this.
I took Moo/FE together in one claim of victory, fact is apart from single FA-marshalls all were adivsed to not engage moo on their terms which leaded to your departure.
While the hard fought day-battles against FE finally resulted in them leaving aswell after they lacked moo's support and couldnt turn the tide.
The whole campaign to save Fountain on the otherhand ended as a victory if you allow me this conclusion.
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Mitchman
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Posted - 2004.04.15 17:27:00 -
[30]
Quote:
For the sake of historical accuracy: Am I right if I say that the event leading to the creation of FA was called "Operation Phoenix" or something along those lines?
That is correct. We had intel about that operation just after it started, and a few of the corporations on the operation support list was not aware of it. OEC was also with the Xan/evol forces in Fountain. A few observations from the things I remember from back then:
- Biggest fight in eve's history (at that time) outside one of the stations in MN. I remember Zeus, Leonardo and a few others getting killed outside the station before docking again. Lag wasn't really that bad, got around 2-3 fps or so. I hit the MWD when leaving warp, and when the environment had loaded, I was 100km from the station. THAT lag was bad.
I remember being glad I wasn't in the group of ships just outside the station, torpedos were exploding left, right and center. We (Bladerunners) had a suicidal Caracal pilot doing MWD torp runs and firing some of them, and he got away from the mess with only some light armor damage. That impressed us
- Leila Numanor was gang leader for the fountain wolfpack back then, but was so angry about the ceasefire (which I take credit for suggesting before further negotiation was to commence), and later the formation of the alliance that "she" went on a personal war, and later a drunken havoc in empire space, dropping her sec rating to -9 or something. She later joined m0o.
Just what I can recollect from those times...
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