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A History of the Fountain Alliance.

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Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:37:00 - [1] Having an army of forum alts suddenly tracking my every post, completely ignoring the content of them and throwing stuff like Quote: Most of your posts are little more than flames or accusations, the only difference is that you want to make a fool out yourself in front of everyone reading. at me without any basis what so ever I thought I might just this one time oblige them with a nice fat post. I'm expecting the same replies from my "forum posse" though but hey, I have a few minutes free and not many FA topics are open at this moment. One disclaimer before we start, before the coup d'etat was made I had all ready left the FA as I had joined Jericho Fraction. Neither I nor Jericho Fraction have any intention of taking a part in the war in Fountain or over control of Fountain. In fact Jericho doesn't recognize the territorial claim of any alliance while recognizing the alliances themselves as entities. Having more background information and current information than many of those that are watching these events unfold I think of it as my journalistic duty to inform the forum reading public of EVE. As in real life, more is written about the wars and struggles than about the peaceful times, even if there has been more of the latter than the former. I'm presenting facts within my commentary, I'm striving to not to taint it with a bias towards any side. Most of my commentary is at the last page, my observations are based on events past and present, I have no personal agenda in promoting either side of the Fountain wars. Now let the proper post begin.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:37:00 - [2] The History of the first Fountain Alliance Once upon a time there was not a single alliance in game. Then Stain is formed as the first alliance. Up in Fountain many corporations are running around, mining bistot, killing the resident Serpentis and just getting along very fine thank you. A pilot getting into trouble with a NPC spawn asks for help on Local and nearly every time others come to the rescue. Every one is living the 0.0 dream of riches earned through effort. Any dispute is usually solved in a peaceful gentlemanly manner. One day as the pilots continue their lives a fleet of EVOL ships show up in MN5N-X. They jump to an asteroid belt where your average Fountain resident is happily minding his own business and open fire without any prior warning. The pilot sees overwhelming odds and so legs it away as fast as possible. The next few hours others are not as lucky as pilots are shot down by EVOL. After asking Shrike just what the effin is going on the answer given is "a corporation has paid Evolution to clear Fountain of unwanted corporations". A warning is finally given out in Local and spread through the rest of the Fountain area by it's residents. Some corporations start to move their forces out, others just move non-PVP pilots to safer space. Fountain residents are not exactly happy about how things have suddenly become but knowing that in 0.0 you might have to resort to violence to deal with problems they start to band together. It becomes clear that the major player behind Evolutions killing spree is Xanadu. A force of Xanadu and Evolution ships starts to gather in MN5N-X while a jump or two away the residents are forming their own fleet. Smaller forces collide every now and then but a big battle is on the cards. The Fountain residents jump into MN5N-X and engage the Evolution/Xanadu fleet. The Fountain fleet has more ships but Evol/Xan manage to minimize losses by repeatedly docking to regain shields and capacitator. The larger numbers win the day for the Fountain residents. Seeing the amount of opposition they face the representatives of Xanadu start talks with most of the corporations that opposed them. Long and hard fights are fought in the channels of the residents and in the negotiation rooms but finally an agreement is made to create a Fountain Alliance, which will be ruled according to democratic ideals and a constitution. Some corporations strongly oppose the formation of an alliance in Fountain and leave the area, others welcome the formation with open arms and many begrudgingly accept that being inside the alliance might benefit them more than being outside it. The constitution has several details on how to accept members, how decisions are taken etc. but the spirit is that Fountain is governed by a democratic alliance, one which loathes piracy. Time goes by, visits by m0o, RUS and Sinister keep the occupants occupied occasionally and show the need for a strong defence. Fountain becomes a peaceful 0.0 area, small incursions hardly nuisance the residents and several Fountain corporations start looking around for more PVP action. They set sails for CA. Time goes by. Some CA forces counter with an incursion into FA space and there is a skirmish or two, just the regular 0.0 occurrences.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 - [3] Interlude - HHI and XAN Harbinger Heavy Industries were among the corporations that had settled in the Fountain area prior to the alliance formation. It was a close friend of Tycho Heavy Industries, when Tycho became the victim of a corporation theft a number of Tycho pilots joined Harbinger. Tycho had 3 battleships at the fights against XAN/EVOL in MN5N-X back in the old days and took an active part in Fountain matters. When arkonor and bistot started respawning properly HHI and Xanadu found themselves mining the same hidden belts of arkonor time and time again. The Fountain rules proposed that no asteroid belt can be claimed by a corporation, but that while pilots from the corporation are active in the asteroid belt (mining, killing npc) it is their right to ask others to leave it. HHI and Xanadu developed some bad blood as they competed for the arkonor riches, the dispute became so heated (both corporations had people that jumped their mouths) that the FA council had to rule on it, where they re-iterated the above mentioned rule. Coupled with HHI and Xanadu often disagreeing during votes and debates on council meetings these two corporations became the least of friends. Many other sources for the frustration between those two corporations can be found but we leave it at that to make a longer story not even longer.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 - [4] Edited by: Riddari on 15/04/2004 14:39:56 The second Fountain Alliance The second Fountain Alliance still rules the Fountain region, it has a few of the original founders of the first Fountain Alliance but also many new faces. While it can declare itself to be a democracy it surely must accept that actions such as this harsh method of expelling corporations without a democratical process casts a huge shadow over any claims of democracy. To quote Detaitiv (executive member of BIG) Quote: extrademocractic action needed to be taken Any corporation within the second Fountain Alliance surely must hope that it does not become the victim of an "extrademocratic action" one day. Epilogue Xanadu and BIG are the two largest corporations within the second Fountain Alliance. Xanadu are a feared force both in economics and fighting, BIG are a financial heavyweight. Being the two largest players in the whole process naturally puts the focus on them. Personally I don't care if the second Fountain Alliance is ruled by the iron fists of Xanadu and BIG, by an Emperor of the Eve Marshals or by a council. I just don't want to see them flying the flag of democracy as their cover when they have shown it does not apply. I also don't care if Rev0lution and allies take control. I do respect BIG & XAN, I have fought against Xanadu and I have fought alongside them both, I have been the only non-XAN pilot in a couple of their gangs and respect their power and skill. But the truth must be free, history should not only be written by the winners (for the moment being the second Fountain Alliance) and the losers (for the moment those ousted) but also by those who were there and have the knowledge. I'm Riddari, this was my post on the past and current events within the Fountain region, my aim is to draw a big picture for the general EVE population, so several details are omitted for clarity. edit: fixed link ¼©¼ a history*
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 - [5] One day some members of m0o decide to venture into FA space to have some fun. They down a couple of ships and start to meet resistance. More m0o start to venture up to FA space and the FA starts to set up a blockade with the forces not fighting in CA space. Battles take place in Z30S-A at the entry point to YZ-LQL, the "capital" system of Fountain. The size of the FA forces and the dreaded lagdevil prevent m0o from gaining entry. Some ships are downed around the area. One morning Fountain residents wake up with m0o suddenly inside YZ-LQL. Seeing how the twin forces of Fountain and lagdevil made their entry impossible during regular game hours some m0o pilots resorted to log in during the night to enter YZ-LQL unopposed. A tactical decision which paid off. Now forces start to trickle in from m0o friends, including the corporations of the then Foresaken Empire. Fountain forces become outnumbered in their own home system. Seeing how things have become out of control back in Fountain some corporations start to recall their forces from CA space to deal with matters in their home system. Gradually a pattern emerges, with more FA forces on during European hours Fountain is FA-held at those times, with m0o/FE having more forces on during US hours Fountain is in their grabs at those times. m0o start to trickle out, fighting in Fountain has become war of the blobs and very boring. Often over 200 people are in local in YZ-LQL. Occasional battles between 50+ ships on either side but most are long range and ships manage to warp out damaged so no great losses. Most of the losses are inflicted when solo pilots are jumped on. With m0o leaving the FA gets even more control, Foresaken Empire and allies are fighting a losing battle and start to head out, their final gesture being a fleet of 20 or so battleships escorting 3 industrials back home. FA member Species8247 of Damage Inc makes a kamikazi attack on one of the industrials and manages to obliterate it while dying valiantly. The industrial in question probably contained something of value as some very naughty words are exchanged in the local chat. The FA meetings have grown hotter and hotter. Some corporations promptly moved out of Fountain space as soon as the trouble started, others moved their forces to Fountain to take part in the defense. A rift between those who fought and fought and those that mined instead is forming, accusations fly around and everyone pretty much agrees that the council has to try to get things in order to be able to counter similar incursions in the future. More structure is made for the patrols and other amendments made. One of the most vocal voices for the FA to change and actually behave more in cohesion belongs to Shard of HHI.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:38:00 - [6] The death of Fountain democracy HHI had become unpopular with BIG and Xanadu for various reasons of their own. A couple of times votes were held to expel HHI from the Fountain Alliance, not enough votes were counted for it so no such expulsion occurred. Seeing that democracy only gets you as far as the number of votes you have behind you several corporations decided to "clean out" the Fountain Alliance and "restructure" it. By making a coup d'etat, where a number of corporations claimed the right as rulers of Fountain and published a list of undesirable corporations and KOS corporations, they found themselves to have the best solution in their eyes. Harsh terms were set, a lockdown was ordered and FA members taking part in patrols were suddenly KOS to their fellow patrolmen and women. Several pilots who had fought wars and lost ships on behalf of the Fountain Alliance were unceremoniously shot down by the new FA rulers and Evolution friends. The first Fountain Alliance was based upon democratic ideals and a constitution. The first Fountain Alliance died when the democratic process was eliminated. The second Fountain Alliance (by some referred to as the New Fountain Alliance) still claims to adhere to the constitution and to be democratic in nature. Clearly what has happened once can happen again so any corporation that wishes to gain entry into the second Fountain Alliance should do well to remember that. A number of the corporations ousted in the coup had indeed not taken active part in the defense of Fountain, some had not contributed more than a couple battleship out of a whole fleet. Others however had taken more active part than the majority of those that are still within the alliance. Any Alliance depends upon its members taking active part, the removal of dead weight has happened in Fountain before, through democratic processes as the majority agreed that the corporation in question at the time had not what the Alliance desired. It has never before had to resort to violence to oust an inactive corporation, so any words about dead weight are the be taken with a bucket of salt. The first Fountain Alliance existed for 9 months and many corporations joined and left during that time, never before though in this manner.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:43:00 - [7] Your the Man Riddari! "We brake for nobody"
StoreSlem	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:53:00 - [8] Edited by: StoreSlem on 15/04/2004 14:55:45 I'd just like to comment, that on the creation of FA you correctly state that EVOL said they were clearing the area for another corporation. However, just as did the other 4-5 corporations that were involved, including Xanadu and it was of course all a deception that retrospectively can be misinterpreted. *spelling error fix
sutty	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:53:00 - [9] to much to read HELP ARGHHHHHHH
Ayako	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:55:00 - [10] Thank you for all the hard work put into this post, I must say it was much needed and very enlightening and it does give a different perspective on the current events in Fountain. Very nice work!
Slam	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:08:00 - [11] Riddari you truly deserve credit for this summary! You clearly tried to present an unbiased and neutral recap of the events during the last 6 months. Some of it is naturally based on a point of view and the knowledge available. However I would like to interject something on behalf of BIG: We are certainly no financal heavyweights (compared to some) nor are we a pvp force to fear. What we bring to the table is a true desire to make the organization FA function as a whole. to that end we field some extremely level headed leaders. We did not consider any corporations in the FA our enemies. However the last 2 months clearly showed a rift beginning to form in FA. It was becoming obvious that no amount of diplomacy could bring us back on track. Steps were taken. People can always debate the metod used but the aim was to revive the FA as a body capable of surviving in the ever harsher frontier environment.
Eris Discordia	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:09:00 - [12] I'm going to edit the title into : A history of Fountain Alliance. And I wish to add that they way people perceive history depends on their view and experience, thus everyone is free to write their own account of what happend. I hope this will reduce the amount of flames and trolling. I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
Olympus Nemus	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:11:00 - [13] I must say this is a VERY nice post. You've shared your opinions on events within the eve community well, good job.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:11:00 - [14] Quote: I'm going to edit the title into : A history of Fountain Alliance. For the historical records, the initial title was "Due to popular demand, big fat Fountain post" ¼©¼ a history
Duraeli	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:13:00 - [15] Ah ha! I finally understand this mess now. Riddari, thank you very much for your expertly written history of the FA and your report on the current situation there. I have never been a big fan of alliance "occupied" space, but I am not one to attempt to contest that occupation. Hopefully things will be sorted out on both fronts however... ---------------------------------------------- "He that will not apply new remedies must expect new evils; for time is the greatest innovator." -Unknown --------------------------------------
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:22:00 - [16] This is not a flame. Dude, why did you skip everything from the formation of the alliance, till the m0o invasion? Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Embrace Death	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:27:00 - [17] CoRM was one of those corperations kicked and put on KOS that had actually defended FA more than many of those in NFA do now. Let me state for the books, corperations were kicked and put on KOS by NFA not based on their productivity or good for the alliance, but for how their votes counted against Xanadu. That is the only thing that got CORM kicked and put on KOS. As to why we were backstabbed with a KOS and not given time to leave, I don't know. I can honestly say that if Xanadu wouldn't have put us on KOS we would have left withing a day or so and never come back..
Bizarre	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:30:00 - [18] Quote: CoRM was one of those corperations kicked and put on KOS that had actually defended FA more than many of those in NFA do now. Let me state for the books, corperations were kicked and put on KOS by NFA not based on their productivity or good for the alliance, but for how their votes counted against Xanadu. That is the only thing that got CORM kicked and put on KOS. As to why we were backstabbed with a KOS and not given time to leave, I don't know. I can honestly say that if Xanadu wouldn't have put us on KOS we would have left withing a day or so and never come back.. Please leave such comments out of this thread. It was not written for it. ------------------------------------------------- Deathwing > U LIKE THOSE NUTS ON YA CHIN?
Beringe	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:31:00 - [19] Kudos, Riddari. Very nice read. ------------------------------------------- "My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead." "No, it's none of your business."
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:33:00 - [20] nice post riddari, wonderfully done. ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:53:00 - [21] Quote: Dude, why did you skip everything from the formation of the alliance, till the m0o invasion? This post is the "textbook" version of the history of the FA. Yes, this is the short version. Much detail is left out, there are indeed large gaps of history in it and that is how it always is when such a short version is written. Anyone wishing to write their own version is naturally encouraged to do so, emphasizing for example the large gap that you asked about. ¼©¼ a history
Finderne	Posted - 2004.04.15 16:11:00 - [22] gj Riddari. I never did know why XAN and HHI started hating each other. Figures it was over hidden ark Species deserves a chapter for himself. Before he saw the light, he was a Don Quixote flying around in a 2xMWD BS shooting up unwary Fountainites. One night he was playing cat and mouse with a big posse in a core system; he warped to a belt and shot down someone who was chaining NPC's (despite repeated alerts) before continuing his flight. Oh and Prophet was right, you skipped stuff like FA vs SIN/RUS/COW and the time they ganked a huge FA fleet at a JIP trap, and FA vs CA shortly after that. And EVOL leaving FA too.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 16:13:00 - [23] Quote: Oh and Prophet was right, you skipped stuff like FA vs SIN/RUS/COW and the time they ganked a huge FA fleet at a JIP trap, and FA vs CA shortly after that. And EVOL leaving FA too. Well, I did put a small paragraph about it: Quote: Time goes by, visits by m0o, RUS and Sinister keep the occupants occupied occasionally and show the need for a strong defence. Fountain becomes a peaceful 0.0 area, small incursions hardly nuisance the residents and several Fountain corporations start looking around for more PVP action. They set sails for CA. ¼©¼ a history
Remo Williams	Posted - 2004.04.15 16:20:00 - [24] Excellent post Riddari! *f3ar teh Rev0luti0n* http://www.hydr4.com
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.04.15 16:40:00 - [25] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 15/04/2004 17:31:56 Edited by: Kcel Chim on 15/04/2004 16:59:20 Edited by: Kcel Chim on 15/04/2004 16:49:07 Kudos for the very well written text. Without trying to start another flamefest i would like to add that your view to the prior-coup-situation in the FA is abit tainted and i would like to clear it up abit from my view. Youre description of the moo/fe invasion stated that FA came out as a winner but we prevented ourself from clearing out our own closet. You stated further, that some corps fled to empire to avoid fighting and the FA agreed to take steps against those unwilling to fight. Now the flaw appeared in the democratic understanding of the FA. The voting system counted abstain votes as NO which additionally to the 2/3rd majority and with some nice political manuvering left not much space for any serious decisions anymore in the FA-council. Many corps who were on the way to be exspelled voted no and persuaded others with the fear of "you are the next" to vote abstain or no aswell which putted a major dent into the democracy in Fountain. Openly boards were filled with treason (covered with the "free speech" wording) and flamefests of opposing sides, accusing without proof other members of illegal actions and crimes. Democracy reached its downpoint when a 3h meeting ended without any productive outcome and a vote if votes should take place was held. Leaving any image of serious decisionmaking as a farce. While the FA limited the voices of the big corps to prevent any "big vs small" conflicts within its corp-base it became apparent that the side of the inactives or destructive corps could hinder and stagnate any decisionfinding process. While i agree that membersize should not entirely dictate how influential you are it creates on the otherhand a mockery of democracy if ppl who never leave empire and have not participate in huge numbers or with alot of actions are allowed to take the lead over those who basically have to pay the bills. Especially on the background of certain corps complaining about their losses in the previous war it seems ridiculous that the very same ppl used their democratic power to prevent the FA to reimbruse them and immideately shifting the blame on the corps chairing the council ( You might not understand what the permanently weekly long flaming and attempts of badmouthing can do to the tensionlevel in a corp but i can tell you alot of members were unhappy with it and asked for steps to be taken) As a direct result more and more tension grew within the borders and it became appearend that the semi-democratic (and yes with this voting rules and the permanent stagnating and internal flaming it was not a democracy anymore because not everyone had the intention anymore to find a solution -like actively avoiding a councilmeeting to prevent a subject from beeing discussed in your absence) system was on its knees. The corps with the most influence and who took most of the pressure decided to reform the FA on their own behalf. Note that this reformation was not aimed as "a few vs the rest" but infact reflecting the majority of pilots in the FA borders alongside a majority of Corps (numberwise). How you want to see this revolution from inside remains your own business. Since our attitude towards our allies and towards passholders hasnt changed and additionally our reworked democratic-internal system is nearly in place, i will ask you further to grant us the same right to establish our state-form and judge us once the chaos of changes is over. We apologized towards those corps who accidentally suffered in the tides of changes and on the background of the ongoing pr- campaigns, dirtfights and wild accusations i hope you can understand the tension inside our pilots aswell which leads to mistakes noone can call himself free of. People who accepted that were reibruised and got their equipment replaced, others who tried to make profit werent. As a conclusion i must say that the changes in fountain mostly affected corps who had no desire to participate in the project FA anymore and i will not dare to admit that maybe some choices were harsh and certain ppl could have deserved a 2nd chance. But also i will state that a new beginning needs a secure base and sometimes in the haste of clearing out you throw away something that had still some worth to replace it with something new. Changes are not always a bad thing and i for myslef, look forward to a new restructured FA, where everyone is friends again, in the spirit of the old FA you mentioned earlier. No backhand deals, no paid pirates, no flaming, no stagnation. I come in a belt, find friends and help them chaining npcs. How it was, how it now is and hopefully how it will be for a long time. Disclaimer: Please note that this is no official FA statement, im only displaying my own beliefes and opinions and i did not intend to flame anyone. I enjoyed r
Baun	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:04:00 - [26] Nice post Chim. It serves to balance a good post by Ridarri who is admittedly anti-reconstituted-FA (while chim would naturally be pro-reconstituted-FA). The Enemy's Gate is Down
Kronarty	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:12:00 - [27] Quote: Edited by: StoreSlem on 15/04/2004 14:55:45 I'd just like to comment, that on the creation of FA you correctly state that EVOL said they were clearing the area for another corporation. However, just as did the other 4-5 corporations that were involved, including Xanadu and it was of course all a deception that retrospectively can be misinterpreted. *spelling error fix For the sake of historical accuracy: Am I right if I say that the event leading to the creation of FA was called "Operation Phoenix" or something along those lines? Thanks for confirming/denying this in case I am right/wrong.
BobGhengisKhan	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:13:00 - [28] Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 15/04/2004 17:20:52 You make it seem like we left because you got an influx of pilots to outnumber us and make us leave. In reality, you just sat around for the last week, ordered not to fight, our only kills being ganks on pilots that don't pay attention. You make it seem way more even that it really was. It wasn't that we were hesitant to fight greater odds, it was that you told us in local everyday that your strategy was to bore us to death in safespots until we left. It worked, but I wouldn't call it victory
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:22:00 - [29] Im sorry bobghengiskhan if it sounded like this. I took Moo/FE together in one claim of victory, fact is apart from single FA-marshalls all were adivsed to not engage moo on their terms which leaded to your departure. While the hard fought day-battles against FE finally resulted in them leaving aswell after they lacked moo's support and couldnt turn the tide. The whole campaign to save Fountain on the otherhand ended as a victory if you allow me this conclusion.
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:27:00 - [30] Quote: For the sake of historical accuracy: Am I right if I say that the event leading to the creation of FA was called "Operation Phoenix" or something along those lines? That is correct. We had intel about that operation just after it started, and a few of the corporations on the operation support list was not aware of it. OEC was also with the Xan/evol forces in Fountain. A few observations from the things I remember from back then: - Biggest fight in eve's history (at that time) outside one of the stations in MN. I remember Zeus, Leonardo and a few others getting killed outside the station before docking again. Lag wasn't really that bad, got around 2-3 fps or so. I hit the MWD when leaving warp, and when the environment had loaded, I was 100km from the station. THAT lag was bad. I remember being glad I wasn't in the group of ships just outside the station, torpedos were exploding left, right and center. We (Bladerunners) had a suicidal Caracal pilot doing MWD torp runs and firing some of them, and he got away from the mess with only some light armor damage. That impressed us - Leila Numanor was gang leader for the fountain wolfpack back then, but was so angry about the ceasefire (which I take credit for suggesting before further negotiation was to commence), and later the formation of the alliance that "she" went on a personal war, and later a drunken havoc in empire space, dropping her sec rating to -9 or something. She later joined m0o. Just what I can recollect from those times...
Li ShangYin	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:34:00 - [31] please please please, if you write something historical, try to have some form of time shown in the text, some kind of meter for when what happened, how much time passed between one event and the next is always helpful. ___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D.
Eris Discordia	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:39:00 - [32] Quote: please please please, if you write something historical, try to have some form of time shown in the text, some kind of meter for when what happened, how much time passed between one event and the next is always helpful. I think it was more a summary of what lead up to recent events and I changed the title into something more historical so it wouldn't end in 9 pages of flaming. I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
BobGhengisKhan	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:41:00 - [33] Alright, victory over F-E for sure.
Mitchello	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:41:00 - [34] Edited by: Mitchello on 15/04/2004 17:44:00 impressive and for the record your posts aren't flames or stupid, I always enjoy your comments Riddari :) anyone who says otherwise either isn't reading what you wrote or is just knee-jerking an Anti-Riddari responce because they disagree with you. Now my curiosity is based on the Pre-m0ovasion post-Xanadu era, I had a firend who joined up out there..can you elaborate on that timeframe?
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:49:00 - [35] Edited by: Aerick Dawn on 15/04/2004 17:51:09 May I respectfully give you my views on a few of your lines. Quote: Many corps who were on the way to be exspelled voted no and persuaded others with the fear of "you are the next" to vote abstain or no aswell which putted a major dent into the democracy in Fountain. To my knowledge there was no persuasion or putting fear into other corps made by the corps that were up for being removed. The Abstain vote was ruled to be voted No, instead of not being counted, that was done by all FA members. Matter of fact many wanted the abstain vote to be a "neutral" vote which caused alot of grief during several votes to remove several corps Quote: Democracy reached its downpoint when a 3h meeting ended without any productive outcome and a vote if votes should take place was held. Leaving any image of serious decisionmaking as a farce. Quote: As a direct result more and more tension grew within the borders and it became appearend that the semi-democratic (and yes with this voting rules and the permanent stagnating and internal flaming it was not a democracy anymore because not everyone had the intention anymore to find a solution -like actively avoiding a councilmeeting to prevent a subject from beeing discussed in your absence) system was on its knees. You are incorrect, the vote to expel HVI was on the spot, with no warning whatsoever for them to defend themselves, which is a breech of the FA constitution. They did not actively avoid a council meeting, matter of fact, when I was made aware of this vote, I was in the meeting that minute. You will see that the Chairman crafted the votes to work in their favor after the initial vote to expel HVI failed. The Chairman crafted the vote so that the corp would be kicked out without a 2/3rd's majority as stated by the constitution. You may find this as fair in your point of view, but many do not. Matter of fact it was restated in the last FA meeting before the coup announcement. Link to that meeting is here Quote: How you want to see this revolution from inside remains your own business. Since our attitude towards our allies and towards passholders hasnt changed and additionally our reworked democratic-internal system is nearly in place, i will ask you further to grant us the same right to establish our state-form and judge us once the chaos of changes is over. We apologized towards those corps who accidentally suffered in the tides of changes and on the background of the ongoing pr- campaigns, dirtfights and wild accusations i hope you can understand the tension inside our pilots aswell which leads to mistakes noone can call himself free of. Judging by the chatter I've seen in local, you're way of apologizing seems somewhat misplaced. The only 2 corporations that have notably been dishonorable and have lacked respect in-game and out are Xanadu, and the Eve Marshalls for their wanton trolling with their alts/mains. To be honest, some elements within NFA are turning this into a PR nightmare for themselves. Kcel's post is the first post of fresh air I have respected. Quote: As a conclusion i must say that the changes in fountain mostly affected corps who had no desire to participate in the project FA anymore and i will not dare to admit that maybe some choices were harsh and certain ppl could have deserved a 2nd chance. But also i will state that a new beginning needs a secure base and sometimes in the haste of clearing out you throw away something that had still some worth to replace it with something new. Changes are not always a bad thing and i for myslef, look forward to a new restructured FA, where everyone is friends again, in the spirit of the old FA you mentioned earlier. No backhand deals, no paid pirates, no flaming, no stagnation. I come in a belt, find friends and help them chaining npcs. How it was, how it now is and hopefully how it will be for a long time. May I remind you that one of your marshall's was/has an active alt in m0o which he has freely admitted on numerous occasions. When viewing history, it's obviously distorted by the lens of the one that attempts to decipher it. I am just wanting to let you in my view, with respect. ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Weazel	Posted - 2004.04.15 17:58:00 - [36] Wow. I've been reading and trying to keep up with the Fountain goings-ons all week and can now finally make sense of it all. My only question is whether or not someone completely outside can get ahold of everyone view points and put together a "completely" unbiased detailed version of the history and events surrounding this Alliance? "... about as cute as a puppy nailed to my front door."
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.04.15 18:18:00 - [37] since i stated i would keep clean on this thread ill not go for you bait and just point out that regardless of how the abstain countin was set in place it ended as a major stagnation tool hindering any progress. Im sure you will agree with me that from all the hard spoken words after the initial invasion about exspelling and removing dead weight nothing but a warm wind was left. Even the removal of a trialmember corps which acted in the name of FA and create much animosities was not solved as a debate under friends but in a very offensive way. You took the time to pointout the alts and slanderingcampaigns and i want to remind you thats not a crime one is guilty of but both. I only need to mention the discrediting postings of Aneu and the term "NFA" to support my post. So excuse me if i dismiss the last part of your reply to belonging into this category. Our pilots have made their mistakes and for those im pretty confident i can take the responsibility, since noone is free of mistakes. I know on the otherhand for sure that ppl got their losses replaced, especially since atleast in one case i was helping the process. The FA has over 10 member-corps, each signed the coup with their own pen, if you allow me the image, and yet you try to single out Xanadu or Eve-marshalls over it, which will on the background of our inside-fa-disagreements not make you anymore credible or help your cause any further. The final and unchangeable conclusion is that the FA removed certain elemets which were seen unfit or counterproductive by the corps representing themself in the coup. All other corps were given the chance to reapply to the FA and had a review process in which they were reevaluated. A total of 11 corps left, leaving 22 corps behind. This is on the paper a 2/3rd majority. Regardless of this Aerick ill give you a word of advice, i enjoy this civilized discussion and im sure the public and the moderaters do aswell. It would help your and our cause if we could agree on "terms of engagement" which prevent any future flamethreads with lengthy alt debates and blood-dripping pr. You will find that we (the FA) will not reply to any thread or reference including the wording NFA, simply because this term does not describe us and we have to think that you are talking about another organisation. Furthermore will we leave as of now most of the decisions on a constructive reply level (thats something i can only speak for Xanadu of). I also would invite you to start fighting us since we both know by claiming D4ku you will earn the public spotlight for a few days but it wont change the situation in FA so you fight a lost cause. Sadly ive been in various fleets during the last couple of days and any engagement i had the joy to observe only happened on these boards or were kills of loners. I hope your revolution has more to offer and i will stay excited. Afterall its a game, remember ?
Kakalot	Posted - 2004.04.15 18:42:00 - [38] It's a game, yes. Everyone is after some fun after a hard day of work in RL. Engagement which is fun requires the effort of two parties. I personally dont mind fighting 1v2 as long as I could get out. Yes you have greater number of pilots, it's perfectly ok to use it to your advantage, but then it turns out to be very boring. Part of it is because of the game mechanics as well. I think this scenario is exactly what happened to m0o/Evolution forces in Curse. Even the combined forces of the 2 best pvp corp in the game (imo) could hardly change anything in Curse, I very much doubt Revol and its allies can inflict major change in a short period of time. Disclaimer: this is my opinion only, I'm not speaking for my corp nor its allies. Hah, I'm safe from those pesky alts! ________________________________________________________ http://users.pandora.be/zebras/Kakalot.jpg
Lentia	Posted - 2004.04.15 18:45:00 - [39] Edited by: Lentia on 15/04/2004 18:48:43 Yes, it is a game.... Long live the Rev0luti0n!! Death to the imperialists. Liberate Fountain from the grasp of the evil capatalists. Even now the dishonored, democracy-loving revolutionaries have blocked you in Z3, D4 and Delve. We will harass you from inside YZ. You shall not rest or sleep till your totalitarian dictatorship has been dismantled and its ashes spread across the galaxy.... ARRGHHH!!
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.15 19:07:00 - [40] I actually find the "drama" way more exciting than any content patch CCP could ever provide, so please keep it up. :) As far as hitting single or weak targets, its just the way we were taught, we learned it by getting our collective butts kicked by certain bovine elements. :) Well anyways, you see the golden motto in my sig... ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
jigga	Posted - 2004.04.15 19:46:00 - [41] Nice review on the history of the FA, but I feel your analysis on the HHI-XAN incident is a bit off. For a more detail version, you can find it here: Warning!! Long and Written by myself (so if you're afraid of a little bias don't read it).
StoreSlem	Posted - 2004.04.15 19:46:00 - [42] Edited by: StoreSlem on 15/04/2004 19:54:53 Quote: For the sake of historical accuracy: Am I right if I say that the event leading to the creation of FA was called "Operation Phoenix" or something along those lines? Thanks for confirming/denying this in case I am right/wrong. Operation Phoenix Maw :)
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.15 19:57:00 - [43] To repeat again, this is not "the definitive history of Fountain", the topic that Eris put instead of mine could be a bit misleading. This is more a rough overview for those that never knew of the happenings in FA space. Sin/RUS/m0o attacks only get a single sentence but in themselves warrant a special chapter, as does indeed Species8247 and various other things happening in FA space and outside (CA attacks, Delve region etc etc). Perhaps this recap of mine could be expanded by others so we could have a fairly accurate and not too biased history of the Fountain region before we celebrate one year of EVE in a few weeks time? We could then put everything on a timeline and decorate with pictures and what not. As for the HHI/Xanadu conflicts, I wasn't a part of HHI for half of the time jigga refers to and leave that matter to others to debate. I did not drag up all the details indeed, then we would have gotten lost in about 4 pages just of my initial post and about 30 more pages debating every single detail ¼©¼ a history
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.15 20:50:00 - [44] Jiggs, as you know, you and I are close personal friends. Matter of fact you are the closest personal friend I have in the world of eve. So close in fact, your always the first target I want to lock up and hug. :) Can you be any broader or more generalized in your "Historical" perspective Jiggs? Quote: 1. Xanadu disrespects all FA corporations members. - Totally false. The only corporation that we disrespect and still do was HHI and that was due to our history with them. You disrespected all of what FA stood for with your carefully crafted votes, and ultimately your coup announcement. Now the new NFA stands on it's high moral ground while letting m0o get a free hunting pass in their backyard. Ask Ronyo. Quote: 3. Xanadu did not participate in the m0o/FE war and remained in Empire space while his corporation valiantly defended the Fountain region. - Absolutely False. From the survey, we were regarded as stout defenders of the Fountain during the invasion. Just because the majority of our corporation was mainly European at the time of the invasion, thus we could not field a fleet during American prime time hours and we did not lose many ships (like 20+ ships suffered by one corporation), Lester and Aerick Dawn declared that Xanadu did not participate in defending Fountain. I actually conceded this discussion in your favor didn't I? I wasn't that happy that it took you all longer than was necessary to respond to the threat. Quote: 4. Xanadu has been using embezzling funds gained from the passport system, instead of using to help cover/compensate for the losses suffered by FA corporations during the war - Totally false once again. BIG was in control of the wallet and the use of the funds were voted on 2 times by the FA council to purchase player owned space items such as sentry guns and mobile warp disruptors. Agreed. As you may have noticed I said nothing on the subject, and later in the ambush vote I stated I didn't agree with what Lester said. Quote: The FA Director forum exploded in flame wars between Xanadu and ex-HHI/HHI. We, frankly, got tired of defending ourselves against these asinine remarks and requested a vote to expel HHI from the FA. Here's the kicker, they requested to expel HVI at the very start of the council meeting, which violated the constitution as I have stated before. A corp must be notified one week in advance in order to defend itself properly instead of ambushed. To make the kangaroo court complete, when the vote didn't work Xanadu's way, the chair, who should remain impartial, crafted 2 more votes to remove the 2/3 majority rule to kick HVI out of Fountain. At least get it right jiggs. The true forum flame war erupted when everyone else got ***ed off during and after that particular meeting. Sastul[Xan] stepped down as Chairman. May I also interject that the chair ignored my vote suggestion multiple times regarding attempting to diplomatically fix the problems with Rev0l. The following items were passed one week before the coup: [COV]Damaclease replaces [Xan]Sastul in chairmanhood * The FA Passport System will be sponser 25M ISK in the BIG Lottery * SSC will investigate regarding HUFF NAP request * Constitution addon: 'Any vote to evict a corp from FA requires that the CEO of the corp in question be given one week notice that they are required to have a rep at the FA council ready to defend their corp or the vote will take place in their absence' * Constitution addon: 'Any vote in FA Council which has as one of it's outcomes the eviction of a corp from FA must comply with the 2/3 majority requirement in the constitution regardless of how the vote is worded' * There is NO NAP with CA, and FA will not make any deal with CA at all * OdeT will not get refunded for her lost Scorpion * Xan forums clarification: those posting on the CEO forums will be the ones who can speak on behalf of their corp * Constitution addon: FA can not ask a FA member corp to remove one of their corp memebrs from their rooster. a consequence of this is that if a corp member somehow acts in a way the FA do not like - It will be the entire corp who will be eligible for any action the FA wants to take towards the corp - it being fines or expulsion * HHI/HVI stays in FA * Evolution people will have to pay for passes just like everyone else Quote: ItÆs nice to see that rev0lutionÆs forum warrior skills are approaching that of Forsaken Empire Alliance during the m0o/FE war, too bad you didnÆt learn how to PvP Lets see, WEDS: 5 Bs's Tuesday: 4 bs's Monday: 4bs's Sunday: 3 bs's Friday: 4 bs's, including 3 we destroyed jumping into YZ while heavily outnumbered. 20 battleships Dead in less than a week. Yes, our pvp skills are lacking Jiggs. Glad you let us know that, we were beginning to worry. We'll try harder next time. Now jiggs, let's not get into another ****ing match, because we both lose ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Luke Skyrider	Posted - 2004.04.15 21:01:00 - [45] In my oppinion a mob rule alliance will always commit suicide because people tend to divide themselves into groups so it's very hard to implement on a larger scale. Secondly this is a game, politics only work to a extent. Join DAB, see the world, meet interesting people and kill them
Porter Hadlend	Posted - 2004.04.15 21:04:00 - [46] Quote: Lets see, WEDS: 5 Bs's Tuesday: 4 bs's Monday: 4bs's Sunday: 3 bs's Friday: 4 bs's, including 3 we destroyed jumping into YZ while heavily outnumbered. 20 battleships Dead in less than a week. Yes, our pvp skills are lacking Jiggs. Glad you let us know that, we were beginning to worry. We'll try harder next time. Now jiggs, let's not get into another **ing match, because we both lose Aerick, quite frankly, where the heck do you get these figures? I ready this and literally and loudly laughed. First, the numbers are horrifically wrong: If you want to make a believable claim, back it up with SOME form of evidence. Secondly, you don't want to get into a *ing match, but you just post more and more flamebait.. Anyone else see something wrong with this? -------------- credendo vides - believing is seeing -=Proud member of the Fountain Alliance=- Hell Hath No Fury Like A Shattered Star!*
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.15 21:09:00 - [47] Evidence is in our internal tracking, and atm, not publically displaying. Anyhow, some Evidence And no, I dont like to get into ****ing matches here, but if you want to try me, your going to get served. Anyhow, Jiggs has a special place in my heart. :) ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
jigga	Posted - 2004.04.15 21:36:00 - [48] Quote: Jiggs, as you know, you and I are close personal friends. Matter of fact you are the closest personal friend I have in the world of eve. So close in fact, your always the first target I want to lock up and hug. :) The feeling is mutual. How about a hug now? Quote: Can you be any broader or more generalized in your "Historical" perspective Jiggs? Quote: 1. Xanadu disrespects all FA corporations members. - Totally false. The only corporation that we disrespect and still do was HHI and that was due to our history with them. You disrespected all of what FA stood for with your carefully crafted votes, and ultimately your coup announcement. Now the new NFA stands on it's high moral ground while letting m0o get a free hunting pass in their backyard. Ask Ronyo. These accusations were leveled before all this occured. Who are you to pass judgement anyways, your lies and false accusations are extremely virtuous, eh? Quote: Quote: 3. Xanadu did not participate in the m0o/FE war and remained in Empire space while his corporation valiantly defended the Fountain region. - Absolutely False. From the survey, we were regarded as stout defenders of the Fountain during the invasion. Just because the majority of our corporation was mainly European at the time of the invasion, thus we could not field a fleet during American prime time hours and we did not lose many ships (like 20+ ships suffered by one corporation), Lester and Aerick Dawn declared that Xanadu did not participate in defending Fountain. I actually conceded this discussion in your favor didn't I? I wasn't that happy that it took you all longer than was necessary to respond to the threat. You did, but then you turn around in say this: Quote: Now as far as the corps contributing to the alliance, HHI did its part. Many of the corps in the new FA have not contributed much of anything. Xanadu and BIG actually were quite slow to respond to the threat that m0o and FE posed. BIG didn't really even show up, Xanadu did show up, and performed during the euro timeslot. They were virtually non-existant during US times however. You may say that your a euro corp, but you are the largest corp in the game, it's your issue if you can't recruit US players. They'll tell you that we didn't pull our weight at night. They are referring to an incident that happened one night out of the entire 8 weeks of the siege were the gang leader made a mistake, and now continue to profess that us players were worthless in their efforts to defend against a siege that comprised of mostly US players on the enemy side. The US players inflicted heavy losses on the enemy towards the midpoint and last half of the struggle. Realize that many if not most of Fountain had no pvp experience including the euro players. The big corps basically went back to empire and called it a lost cause. Many people saw Xanadu and BIG members frolicking about in empire space while all of the rest spent every waking moment defending the region of space called Fountain. I was one of those members, and every night we didn't see BIG or Xan members, or one of the deadweight corps that are now part of the new FA not fighting, but filling their holds full of dirt ore in empire space. Many of these players became quite disgruntled due to the nonaction of their supposed brothers in arms. in this thread. Contradiction? First off, it's our responsibility to recruit more US players just because we're one of the biggest corp in the alliance? Moreovr, it's also our role, as one of the biggest corporations in the FA, to provide round the clock defense? Kind of demanding for one corporation, eh? I appologize for the fact we weren't willing to alter our corporation to appease you. Secondly, you said you saw no Xanadu or BIG during US prime time hours, eventhough you said we are an European corporation. And because you didn't see us during US prime time (remember, we're a European corporation), we must have been in Empire hiding and mining. Brilliant logic! You're contradicting yourself left, right and center. And yes folks, this is what we had to deal with for weeks on the FA Director Board. Quote: Quote: 4. Xanadu has been using embezzling funds gained from the passport system, instead of using to help cover/compensate for the losses suffered by FA corporations during the war - Totally false once again. BIG was in control of the wallet and the use of the funds were voted on 2 times by the FA council to purchase player owned space items such as sentry guns and mobile warp disruptors. Agreed. As you may have noticed I said nothing on the subject, and later in the ambush vote I stated I didn't agree with what Lester said. Did I umply you said this? I knew it was Mako, I'm not blaming you at all.
Greyson Rogers	Posted - 2004.04.15 21:53:00 - [49] Nice recap of everything Riddari. I agree some chapters could be expanded, but for those that aren't a member of the FA or new to the game this gives them an idea of whats going on.
Turfrider	Posted - 2004.04.15 22:06:00 - [50] Great post Riddari. I don¦t have that much to say. I have become to known lots of peps in diffrent Corps, some are fun and cool to talk to.Well the game continues no matter what will happend. Things likes this will allways happend when there is wrong people at the wrong place deciding for the Right what THEY think is the right decision. Riddari .. cu in space near.over and out
Fluid	Posted - 2004.04.15 22:07:00 - [51] good post ridari, pretty much spoton from my view
Shamad Conde	Posted - 2004.04.15 22:51:00 - [52] Edited by: Shamad Conde on 15/04/2004 22:52:19 Very good posts, appreciated 0:) It is always nice to know how my own alliance has started :P
Tbone	Posted - 2004.04.15 23:59:00 - [53] Nice post riddari ----------------------------------------------- Unholy Killboard
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.16 00:47:00 - [54] Jiggs, lets just hug. :) The funny part is so far we've been quite cordial in game. :) Our pee pee fest on the boards is over, mmm k? jiggs always knows how to light my fuse :) ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Propehcy	Posted - 2004.04.16 06:56:00 - [55] I see Jade has taught Riddari the art of long winded posts (jk). Great post riddari Prophecy Ex-CA Rep and Ex-CA Member http://www.designegrafix.com/eve/prop5.jpg Props Chop Shop: Ships, Arms, and Armaments producer for Northern Eve! Located at Torrinos 5 - 6 - Home Guard Assembley. The Prop And Notferr Chronicles Notferr> Propehcy Owns me! Yet I feel so much Fear in his Evil Presence! Propehcy> Bow Down, You know who your Master is. Notferr> Only Prop is King!! Only Prop!! I Am nothing! Propehcy> I think Stav would be Proud. Propehcy> I Need a Tool... Where is that Notferr... [ 2004.09.11 28:63:98 ] Propehcy 2004.09.11 29:05:33.3 combat Your Miner II perfectly strikes Notferr, wrecking for WTFPWNAGE.
Zen Later	Posted - 2004.04.16 10:51:00 - [56] Interesting read. About the mOo invasion then the Forsaken Empire Alliance also getting involved and then both mOo and the FE Alliance withdrawl... BobG summed it up pretty well...it just got incredibly borring for us on the FE side and I'm sure for the folks on the FA side. They'd control the major Fountain systems prime-time Euro times, we'd control the major Fountain systems prime-time US times with little to no action (other than ganking frigs, nub ships and the odd dumb-dumb BS pilot) in the later stages. mOo pilots became increasingly bored with the non-fighting situation and the majority of their pilots left for greener pastures. Things finally came to a cross roads and the leaders of the Forsaken Empire Aliance corps had an impromtu meeting and decided enough of the FA nonesense. We blew up a small fleet presented to us, gathered our stuff and left Fountain. Yes, we did suffer the loss of an indie but not it's contents...and it was only a bunch of ammo btw One thing the Fountain War lead to was the merging of the Allaince into a single corp, the Forsaken Empire. I will say though that Fountain was one of the worst possible places to fight in...most especially YZ-LQL. We could have had a titantic battle one Saturday...80+ vs. 60+, but alas, even after weeks of asking GM's to allocate more resources to the Fountain area it turned into probably one of the single most miserable experiences I've had playing Eve.
Species 8472	Posted - 2004.04.16 11:27:00 - [57] Very Nice history Lesson Riddari BTW its spelt Species 8472 SOLOPLAYER - 1322 - 07E7------That means im allowed to mine/rat hunt / trade and fly through Fountain as i plse. ?? NFA have some security issues i thought i would bring to your attention before pple abuse it. Its not an exploit its a security issue u guys need to quikly sought out. "The Weak Will Perish".
Vitari	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:59:00 - [58] Nice post there Riddari
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:08:00 - [59] I do want to say something about the m0o/FE war. Considering it was an 8 week long ordeal, it was nice that everyone remained very civil(except for maybe 2 or 3 people) and friendly towards one another, and that should be added to the history books as well. ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
teewii	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:17:00 - [60] Quote: I do want to say something about the m0o/FE war. Considering it was an 8 week long ordeal, it was nice that everyone remained very civil(except for maybe 2 or 3 people) and friendly towards one another, and that should be added to the history books as well. FE was ***ing amd smack talking all the time until they started getting killed, then** did they shut up with the smack :O
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:29:00 - [61] I said a select few, not all of them. Matter of fact I only recall one guy that smacked the smack. Out of 80 FE guys thats not bad. ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:48:00 - [62] Since Eris changed this topic into "The History of...." I think we should maybe take a look at this project. ¼©¼ a history
anthonieak	Posted - 2004.04.16 15:48:00 - [63] Nice story Riddari. Although i do not read that much on the forums. This i read out. The comments made by others i read between lines. But after History comes Future There I do not come much or say none at all in Alliance spaces. After I was shot with my alt in the venal region just too explore the outer region. In that region they find that anyone or anybody is a spy. So my view on alliance get a whole different perspective. A wonder still is safe in an alliance. But still I have questions. At Xanadu statement I figured out that FA alliance consist out of 22 corperations. What are the goals of FA alliance now? What are the terms that an cooperation can enter an alliance Is it possible that an cooperation can own his own station within the alliance and when they are allowed to do this? As in cooperation there are fighters. Those people do want too protect miners from hostiles from pirates. If this are NPC pirates or from people who just want too kill others for their own fun negleting the feeling that this terrorist bring too the hauler or miner who just is doing his work for the alliance or cooperation he or she is in. In what way they deal against such terrorist actions? Because tose terrorist never die. CCp still has no insurance for your implants which you have or for your equipment which you use This post is already too long again. AK *********************************************** Missing Lola Gold Since 6-4-2004 Miner Addicted
Ezra	Posted - 2004.04.16 19:54:00 - [64] Edited by: Ezra on 16/04/2004 20:13:46 Quote: gj Riddari. I never did know why XAN and HHI started hating each other. Figures it was over hidden ark IIRC it actually started before Castor hit and the ark respawned. By the time the ark disputes started, there was already a lot of bad blood between the HHI crew and Xanadu, much of it due to the fact that most of the members of Xanadu were abhorred by HHI condoning (and even bragging about) the theft perpetrated by HHI against SIM. Had there not already been bad blood, there probably would not have been major issues w.r.t. mining. But unfortunately, there were already seeds of distaste that mining conflicts served to amplify significantly. Other than that missing detail, Riddari's post was excellent. On an unrelated notes, some of the comments regarding how democracy (to some degree) failed in the FA, partly due to the issue of big corp vs. small corp voice reminds me of a history lesson, a very old one in RL. Many from outside the United States may not know, and probably a good number of U.S. citizens don't know this, but prior to the United States Constitution being written, the United States (or what was to become the United States) was governed by a document known as the Articles of Confederation (I may have the name slightly wrong here. Not to be confused with the Confederacy of the Civil War). The Articles probably lasted for only 8-10 years in the late 1700s, and the United States government was very weak and ineffective at that time. Democracy was beginning to look like a failed experiment. Eventually, new guidelines for the government of the former British colonies were formed. These guidelines are the Constitution that has guided the government of the United States for over 200 years. Back then, one of the hottest debates was the issue of division of power between small and large states. The end result of this debate was called the Great Compromise, and was what formed the current legislative branch of the U.S. government - Two seperate entities, one with equal power for all states (2 representatives per state) and one with power proportional to a states' population. I wonder how such a system would work for the Fountain government, one that could avoid the need for such drastic measures to be taken again. Once I get back from a meeting on campus I may bring this up with my directors. :) ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Xanadu Corporation
Lentia	Posted - 2004.04.16 20:30:00 - [65] And isnt it interesting that the current conflict also can be framed in a similar way to the American Revolution. The overpowering European Imperialists (Xanadu) attempting to hijack the fledgling New World (Fountain) and crush democracy only to be ultimately defeated by a small band of American Revolutionairies (Rev0luti0n) which will then ultimately go on to rule the WORLD! HAHAHA
Insane Angel	Posted - 2004.04.16 21:21:00 - [66] I like that "EVE Marshall Emperor" part(Marshal is proper spelling). Too bad im not Oh yeah, all our players that post on forums are the real deal, none are alts. Example: on Old Earth USA(North) defeated the USA(south). Thats a better example of this situation, not the revolutionary war. Aerick, yeah Baun and I like to post in the forums. We only do it to counter the forum warriors that make "innaccurate" posts about the EVE Marshals or anyone we are allied with. As for Democracy, it is very much alive. We are a democratic nation within EVE. If we dont agree with Xanadu, BIG, FinFleet or any of our allies we will sure as heck make them aware of our vote and our displeasure. We are "anti-pirate" and we are the "good guys". And this is not only the Marshals view of themselves but also the view of many in the EVE community. We will continue in this role until the end of EVE.
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.16 21:30:00 - [67] Quote: We are "anti-pirate" and we are the "good guys". And this is not only the Marshals view of themselves but also the view of many in the EVE community. We will continue in this role until the end of EVE. If you are anti-pirate, can you care to explain the NFA's allowance of m0o in one of your core systems? I question your true motivations, and the public has not received an adequate answer. I anxiously await your response. ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Estarriol	Posted - 2004.04.16 22:19:00 - [68] Edited by: Estarriol on 16/04/2004 22:20:35 Quote: If you are anti-pirate, can you care to explain the NFA's allowance of m0o in one of your core systems? m0o are hanging around in one of their 'core' systems... afaik, this has been more of a 'hands-off' approach of handling a potentially hostile situation... Meanwhile, Rev0luti0n have been openly hunting alongside known pirates near the Hophib system, and some of these (e.g., several from PAK) have even been accepted into your ranks. Care to explain this? Quote: I question your true motivations, and the public has not received an adequate answer. I anxiously await your response. On the other hand, your motivations seem painfully transparent.
teewii	Posted - 2004.04.16 22:28:00 - [69] Quote: And isnt it interesting that the current conflict also can be framed in a similar way to the American Revolution. The overpowering European Imperialists (Xanadu) attempting to hijack the fledgling New World (Fountain) and crush democracy only to be ultimately defeated by a small band of American Revolutionairies (Rev0luti0n) which will then ultimately go on to rule the WORLD! HAHAHA despite your name, xanady and team is actually more like the rebells :D and you the evil empire defending what was
NAFnist	Posted - 2004.04.16 22:45:00 - [70] Awsome read. More of this pealse _____________
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.16 23:02:00 - [71] Edited by: Aerick Dawn on 16/04/2004 23:10:12 Quote: Meanwhile, Rev0luti0n have been openly hunting alongside known pirates near the Hophib system, and some of these (e.g., several from PAK) have even been accepted into your ranks. Care to explain this? No problem. The PAK members in question that have joined us, Kakalot, and Captain Pugwash have both forsaken pirating, and have worked extremely hard at getting their security level to an appreciable level. They have both gone extremely on the legit side. Keep in mind I hunted these two with my corp, and they've both traded shots with myself and other Aridia based corporations. Now, since then, they have not been in one incident of ever pirating anyone. They are both perfect gentlemen both in and out of the field. Can a person change their evil pirating ways? Of course they can. Should you label them lock stock and barrel as the unwanted evil bastards they are? I think that is quite shortsighted as was your question. and let me add, if we are running ops in hophib while m00 sits a few jumps away with about 80 NFA pilots in the core systems a short distance away, it begs the question even more. ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Estarriol	Posted - 2004.04.16 23:32:00 - [72] Quote: Can a person change their evil pirating ways? Of course they can. Should you label them lock stock and barrel as the unwanted evil bastards they are? I think that is quite shortsighted as was your question. How could the question, "Care to explain this?" be described as "quite shortsighted"?
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.04.17 02:13:00 - [73] Quote: Many from outside the United States may not know, and probably a good number of U.S. citizens don't know this, but prior to the United States Constitution being written, the United States (or what was to become the United States) was governed by a document known as the Articles of Confederation (I may have the name slightly wrong here. Not to be confused with the Confederacy of the Civil War). The Articles probably lasted for only 8-10 years in the late 1700s, and the United States government was very weak and ineffective at that time. Democracy was beginning to look like a failed experiment. Eventually, new guidelines for the government of the former British colonies were formed. These guidelines are the Constitution that has guided the government of the United States for over 200 years. Back then, one of the hottest debates was the issue of division of power between small and large states. The end result of this debate was called the Great Compromise, and was what formed the current legislative branch of the U.S. government - Two seperate entities, one with equal power for all states (2 representatives per state) and one with power proportional to a states' population. The key difference between the debate between the Articals of Confederation and the Constitution, and what happened in FA, are that A: No states were cast from the union, because of their refusal to ratify. B: No states were forced to ratify the Constitution by military action. C: None of the Constitution was implemented until after it had been ratified by 2/3rds of the states involved, (in fact, they waited until every state in the union had ratifies the Constitution before implementing it.) In short, the NFA coup is the complete antithesis of the ratification of the US Consitution. The violent eviction of an undesired minority is completely contrary to true Republic theory. Go read the Federalist Papers if you haven't already. Somehow I doubt neither Jefferson, nor Hamelton would in anyway aprove of calling what you have done "democratic" and getting those two to agree on anything was quite a feat. Harry Voyager
Detaitiv	Posted - 2004.04.17 04:20:00 - [74] Quote: The violent eviction of an undesired minority is completely contrary to true Republic theory replace "undersired minority" with treasonous elements, corps unfortunate enough to have been associated with such due to unwise actions of a few of their members, and non participants. /me writes another request to CCP for the ability to edit other people posts
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.17 04:47:00 - [75] Edited by: Aerick Dawn on 17/04/2004 04:52:08 Quote: How could the question, "Care to explain this?" be described as "quite shortsighted"? Quite simple if you read it. You were making the determination that since we have ex pirates within our organization makes them still pirates, and makes us pirates. Did that make sense to you or should I explain it even further in more simple terms so you may understand? ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Haunty Moto	Posted - 2004.04.17 04:48:00 - [76] That was a very entertaining read. Time will tell what the future holds, wee!
Papa Cerb	Posted - 2004.04.17 09:48:00 - [77] Very good post Riddari!!! It was nice to read! ______________________________________________________________________ Do I look like pirate?
Laird	Posted - 2004.04.17 10:40:00 - [78] A most enjoyable read. I'd like to more of the same idea on the other alliances, Anybody willing to take up the stand? Commodore Laird, Human Resources Officer "There are strange aeons where even death may die"
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.17 15:40:00 - [79] Quote: A most enjoyable read. I'd like to more of the same idea on the other alliances, Anybody willing to take up the stand? I have put forward such a proposal. So far I have only been contacted on forums and ingame by Fountain people, past and present. ¼©¼ a history
Estarriol	Posted - 2004.04.17 16:23:00 - [80] Edited by: Estarriol on 17/04/2004 16:25:10 Quote: Did that make sense to you or should I explain it even further in more simple terms so you may understand? LMAO. Aerick, you keep self-described pirates among your ranks, you are running a 'pirate'-style campaign to irritate and annoy Fountain Alliance. Yet, you raise the issue of m0o, who are sitting around somewhere being carebears. 'OMG FA HARBOURS PIRATES THEREFORE WE NEED TO HIRE OUR OWN PIRATES TOO!!!' It seems simple enough that you wish to preserve Rev0luti0n's purely fictitious legitimacy by diverting attention elsewhere. Estarriol
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.04.17 18:23:00 - [81] Quote: Quote: The violent eviction of an undesired minority is completely contrary to true Republic theory replace "undersired minority" with treasonous elements, corps unfortunate enough to have been associated with such due to unwise actions of a few of their members, and non participants. /me writes another request to CCP for the ability to edit other people posts If a full third of your country is "treasonous elements" you don't have treason, you have an open civil war on your hands. Frankly all the NFA's talk of "treasonous elements" smacks of window dressing. What outside entities were they working with to destroy Fountain? Names, times, places? If you are going to accuse a full third of your alliance of treason, then you had better be able to prove it, or else it's just an internal Coup De'ta to cast out the "undesireds". Harry Voyager
Aerick Dawn	Posted - 2004.04.17 18:43:00 - [82] Quote: LMAO. Aerick, you keep self-described pirates among your ranks, you are running a 'pirate'-style campaign to irritate and annoy Fountain Alliance. Yet, you raise the issue of m0o, who are sitting around somewhere being carebears. 'OMG FA HARBOURS PIRATES THEREFORE WE NEED TO HIRE OUR OWN PIRATES TOO!!!' It seems simple enough that you wish to preserve Rev0luti0n's purely fictitious legitimacy by diverting attention elsewhere. Read my post above, oh wait, you already have! Bring your spin machine somewhere else..... ______________________ What Aerick has been up to lately..
Dekar	Posted - 2004.04.18 01:52:00 - [83] Quote: I think that is quite shortsighted as was your question. Actually, short-sighted has nothing to do with it. It depends on the accuracy of your story and the awareness of that story amongst the people in question. ------------------------------------------------- Lying Scumbag
Riddari	Posted - 2004.05.10 14:26:00 - [84] Following recent events (where I have been appointed Master of (Digital) Archives at another institution) and the movement that has sprouted to write the history of EVE I hereby grant anyone interested full permission to use what I have written so far on the Fountain Alliance and related matters. I myself have to withdraw due to the amount of work my new position demands and am hopeful to see something really great grow out of these efforts. Should anyone be interested in getting feedback on their work I am only to happy to read over and pinpoint the strong and weak points. ¼©¼ a history
Bared Bel'Medar	Posted - 2004.05.10 15:21:00 - [85] Excellent I am Jack's broken moral compass. I am Jack's STILL trapped in eve limbo. maybe not for much longer...

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