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VInanath Diesel Irken Research Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:38:00 - [1] Edited by: VInanath Diesel on 01/04/2008 14:42:03 That there are low down players with a "the ends excuse the means" attitude and a glint for mischief in their eye in this wonderful game we call EvE is no surprise to me anymore. What really blew me away was to see CCP actually endorse a low down ovbious exploit and embrase it as a "design feature". What do I mean? Well maybe is better if I relate the events from the begining. So there I am just waping into a new system in my hard earned pimped out isk printing, mission running CNR. Ready for an evening of speed missioning I head towards dock to pick up a mission when suddenly...what's this? someone wants to convo me? I am no misanthrope with poor social skills so I answer the call. That was my first mistake. I am engaged in coversation by a Player (we shall call him him Conman1 )who claims to be having trouble with a lvl 4 mission and needs help completing said mission. I felt gracious and magnimonous @ the time so i decided why not? So I get the Fleet invite, which appears clean and free of any wars and enter into a fleet with Conman1, I then proceed to warp to him in my aforementioned CNR. While enroute I immediately notice another player join our fleet,and of course theres not much I can do @ this point. I arrive in the middle of nowhere to be greeted by a pvp fitted Armageddon and an interceptor. Said Armageddon immediately opens fire and warp scrams me.And oh joy I realize I been had, how? am not really sure as I know for a fact the fleet invite was devoid of any war declarations, but @ the moment am more concerned with the survival of my 1.2 billion investment.Of course I get the convo from Conman1 demanding a ransom of 600 mil, which after some negotiation we settle on 300 mil. I pay the pirate, only to see my ship blow up a minute or two later and a final message from Conman1 explaining he ws after maximun profits. So out a ship, pride hurt I take my plight to my corpies, who refer me to the petitions system believing I been the victim of an exploit. What follows are the messages between myself and GM anonymous; Can someone please review this encounter I been told i may have ben the victim of an exploit. 2008.03.25 00:22:00 Victim: VInanath Diesel Alliance: NONE Corp: Freedom of Choice Destroyed: Raven Navy Issue System: Aramachi Security: 0.5 Damage Taken: 95434 If i was not exploited, can someone explain to me how a fleet member blew up my ship without concord stepping in? THERE WAS NO WAR warning. Please do not post GM correspondence at any time. Navigator
VInanath Diesel Irken Research Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:39:00 - [2] Edited by: VInanath Diesel on 01/04/2008 14:46:10 Edited by: VInanath Diesel on 01/04/2008 14:42:35 Edited by: VInanath Diesel on 01/04/2008 14:40:00 Edited by: VInanath Diesel on 01/04/2008 14:39:03 Vinanath Diesel; Exactly! how can this not be an exploit? Basically what you are telling me is that joining a fleet in this mmo is a huge "no-No" because u simply cannot trust your fellow fleet members to take advantage of you. What you have effectively done is convinced me to never again join a fleet. I simply cannot believe CCP condones this. I am very dissapointed. I am out over a billion isk because of a technicallity. Just so i understand properly what occurred, is there any way you guy can check the logs and seee which other pilots were involved in this incident. Who else was in the fleet? I do remember another pilot... So there you have it folks, matter closed according to CCP. Why am I bothering to put this up in the forums? Only to forewarn any other players of the dangers of joining a fleet that is being runned by a stranger. Maybe to vent a bit too. Lesson learned ; NEVER ever join a fleet unless is being runned by someone you can reach out and touch in real life.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:40:00 - [3] "Basically what you are telling me is that joining a fleet in this mmo is a huge "no-No" because u simply cannot trust your fellow fleet members to take advantage of you?" In short, yes exactly that. Welcome to EvE. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:40:00 - [4] Posting GM logs on these forums is against the rules, you can either edit them out now or wait to have a moderator do it for you. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
tres testor Freedom of Choice	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:43:00 - [5] Removed the GM's name Is that better?
Anaalys Fluuterby	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:49:00 - [6] Someone posts this at least once a week, I can't believe that people still fall for it. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Malcanis	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:50:00 - [7] Originally by: tres testor Removed the GM's name Is that better? Looks like you got your answer. Trust is a rare and precious commodity in EvE, and CCP deliberately give us the option to be untrustworthy in order that the choice actually means something. Unlike games where being "evil" just means your character gets a cool red-and-black outfight and better offensive magic, in EvE everyone gets the same costumes and weapons, and a real moral alignment. Be aware that this means there are many players who despite being perfectly nice people in real life, will actively lie, steal from and attack you in game, simply because they can. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
VInanath Diesel	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:50:00 - [8] Well ain't that peachy? apparently GM responses cannot be posted here. So suffice it to say I was made to understand There was no exploit here because this is how the fleet is meant to work. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Ralara	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:52:00 - [9] It's called "The Lofty Scam" (after the player called Lofty made this extremely propular). It's not deemed an exploit, although I do think it's kinda dumb. I wouldn't do it myself but since it's legal.... The way to avoid this, and still help players is this: If they ask you to assist them, then YOU make the gang (so you can invite who you want), and then warp to them when they're at the mission. Even if they have friends there, they wont be able to attack you without concord killing them. -- Ralara / Ralarina
Jack Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:52:00 - [10] When i was new player it happend to me to. This is the cheapest of the cheapest kills. After this i have never ever help any one i dont know or isnt blue to me. Very pvp dont you think...

Malcanis	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:53:00 - [11] Originally by: VInanath Diesel Well ain't that peachy? apparently GM responses cannot be posted here. So suffice it to say I was made to understand There was no exploit here because this is how the fleet is meant to work. Yep, just like it said in that warning you clicked "OK" to without reading properly. PS you get a similar warning when you enter a lo-sec system. I suggest do you read that one. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Darwin Duck	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:54:00 - [12] Haha, that reminded me of SWG where Bounty hunters gained Jedi's trust by hunting in groups with them for hours just to kill the jedi at the appropiate time when the Jedi was weak and hurt. To the OP, it was not an exploit, it was smart tactics from your killers.
VInanath Diesel	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: VInanath Diesel Well ain't that peachy? apparently GM responses cannot be posted here. So suffice it to say I was made to understand There was no exploit here because this is how the fleet is meant to work. Yep, just like it said in that warning you clicked "OK" to without reading properly. PS you get a similar warning when you enter a lo-sec system. I suggest do you read that one. I did read the warning. It said NO ONE is @ war. Apparently that warning wasn't worth anything. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Shanur	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:57:00 - [14] There are legitimate reasons to the war targeting mechanics, mostly dealing with people being able to assist a war target without being agressable themselves until they already contributed if it didn't work that way. It simply also happens to be useable by clever high sec pirates. Welcome to what is in EVE known as the Lofty scam. Apparently the harshness of the EVE world is a greater good than the ability to socialize in game(especially finding a good corp without using out of game resources, a sore spot for me as old EQ player), so yes, the result is that people will be extremely wary of helping other players out, and will seldom do it trough ganging up, but will instead insist on having the bookmark to the mission area traded to them.
VInanath Diesel	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:59:00 - [15] Edited by: VInanath Diesel on 01/04/2008 15:01:34 Originally by: Ralara It's called "The Lofty Scam" (after the player called Lofty made this extremely propular). It's not deemed an exploit, although I do think it's kinda dumb. I wouldn't do it myself but since it's legal.... The way to avoid this, and still help players is this: If they ask you to assist them, then YOU make the gang (so you can invite who you want), and then warp to them when they're at the mission. Even if they have friends there, they wont be able to attack you without concord killing them. Originally by: Shanur There are legitimate reasons to the war targeting mechanics, mostly dealing with people being able to assist a war target without being agressable themselves until they already contributed if it didn't work that way. It simply also happens to be useable by clever high sec pirates. Welcome to what is in EVE known as the Lofty scam. Apparently the harshness of the EVE world is a greater good than the ability to socialize in game(especially finding a good corp without using out of game resources, a sore spot for me as old EQ player), so yes, the result is that people will be extremely wary of helping other players out, and will seldom do it trough ganging up, but will instead insist on having the bookmark to the mission area traded to them. Thank you for the advice. I will remember this next time am compelled to help someone, though I doubt that will be anytime soon. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Ankhesentapemkah	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:59:00 - [16] I definately think this is one of the game mechanics that need to go. Eve is an MMO and you should be able to help and socialize with people. But now when someone asks for help, it's better to treat him like a leper, because if you don't, chances are big that it's a scam and you're going to be mugged. There is no way to prevent these things from happening (besides never talking to and never flying with another person - ever), and once again, there aren't any consequences for these little brats that commit these crimes. --- Take Care is the CSM party for the free and independant players! Contact us and let us relay your ideas to CCP! Visit our Campaign Website
Fink Angel	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:01:00 - [17] It's a shame because this knackers any chance of ad-hoc help within Eve. For this gang/fleet issue there's no way on earth I will ever help anyone in need by ganging with them. It's a bit of a loss to the friendliness of the game IMO, but hey ho, I've never been bitten and never will be bitten. Feel sorry for you OP, for what that's worth. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Pak Narhoo	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:02:00 - [18] Edited by: Pak Narhoo on 01/04/2008 15:03:54 How can you be in a CNR and not know that you NEVER EVER join fleet with peeps you do not know? - Rookie tip NO#1:- DO NOT EVER JOIN FLEET WITH PEEPS YOU DO NOT KNOW! - Rookie tip NO#2: do not do missions in low sec. 0.4. or lower. You WILL get ganked. Unless you have the dressing on your ship..... - Rookie tip NO#3: Never accept ISK from peeps, you do not know. Before you know it your account may end up several millioens in the MINUS. - Rookie tip NO#0: Never Ever trust no-one. This is EVE. ----- edited zome zspellingk eroers... ----------------------------- No, you cannot have my stuffÖ.
Malcanis	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I definately think this is one of the game mechanics that need to go. Eve is an MMO and you should be able to help and socialize with people. But now when someone asks for help, it's better to treat him like a leper, because if you don't, chances are big that it's a scam and you're going to be mugged. There is no way to prevent these things from happening (besides never talking to and never flying with another person - ever), and once again, there aren't any consequences for these little brats that commit these crimes. You're either ignorant or a liar. I fly in gangs all the time, and trust implicitly the people in them. Occasionally I fly in gangs with people I don't know, and then I am very careful indeed until they have proved themselves at least a little trustworthy. I don't let people in to my house if I don't think I can trust them, I don't trust them with my bank details unless I think I can trust them, I wouldn't lend them my car or tell them where my sister worked. And that's in real life where there are possible consequences to abusing my trust. Why would I let someone in to my gang unless I trusted them, or at least took steps to ensure they couldn't take advantage? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Xaen	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:08:00 - [20] Originally by: VInanath Diesel Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: VInanath Diesel Well ain't that peachy? apparently GM responses cannot be posted here. So suffice it to say I was made to understand There was no exploit here because this is how the fleet is meant to work. Yep, just like it said in that warning you clicked "OK" to without reading properly. PS you get a similar warning when you enter a lo-sec system. I suggest do you read that one. I did read the warning. It said NO ONE is @ war. Apparently that warning wasn't worth anything. Apparently it was worth something, and you ignored it. I'm guessing what happened is the person that invited you invited someone he was at war with after you joined. Enjoy your 1.5 billion dollar lesson. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs

Tippia	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:08:00 - [21] Originally by: VInanath Diesel So there I am just waping into a new system in my hard earned pimped out isk printing Shouldn't the latter have cancelled out the former by now?
Xaen	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I definately think this is one of the game mechanics that need to go. Eve is an MMO and you should be able to help and socialize with people. But now when someone asks for help, it's better to treat him like a leper, because if you don't, chances are big that it's a scam and you're going to be mugged. There is no way to prevent these things from happening (besides never talking to and never flying with another person - ever), and once again, there aren't any consequences for these little brats that commit these crimes. Agreed. This particular mechanic is a little too enabling of the sociopaths out there. I much prefer to use the ones that exploit stupidity rather than ignorance. Much more satisfying. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Malcanis	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Fink Angel It's a shame because this knackers any chance of ad-hoc help within Eve. For this gang/fleet issue there's no way on earth I will ever help anyone in need by ganging with them. It's a bit of a loss to the friendliness of the game IMO, but hey ho, I've never been bitten and never will be bitten. Feel sorry for you OP, for what that's worth. I feel a little sorry for him, but on the other hand, he can afford a CNR; he'll bounce back. As for the "friendliness" of the game... you know that EvE is supposed to be dark, violent, cold and corrupt? And I wouldn't have it any other way - because the friends I have made in game are all the more valuable precisely because I have to trust them so much. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
VInanath Diesel	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I definately think this is one of the game mechanics that need to go. Eve is an MMO and you should be able to help and socialize with people. But now when someone asks for help, it's better to treat him like a leper, because if you don't, chances are big that it's a scam and you're going to be mugged. There is no way to prevent these things from happening (besides never talking to and never flying with another person - ever), and once again, there aren't any consequences for these little brats that commit these crimes. You're either ignorant or a liar. I fly in gangs all the time, and trust implicitly the people in them. Occasionally I fly in gangs with people I don't know, and then I am very careful indeed until they have proved themselves at least a little trustworthy. I don't let people in to my house if I don't think I can trust them, I don't trust them with my bank details unless I think I can trust them, I wouldn't lend them my car or tell them where my sister worked. And that's in real life where there are possible consequences to abusing my trust. Why would I let someone in to my gang unless I trusted them, or at least took steps to ensure they couldn't take advantage? I have to agree with Malcanis, NOWthat I know how this fiasco could have been prevented. I supposed CCP could expand on the Fleet warning a bit, making it clearer of the danger of such scams. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Anaalys Fluuterby	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:16:00 - [25] Originally by: VInanath Diesel I did read the warning. It said NO ONE is @ war. Apparently that warning wasn't worth anything. The problem is that after you accepted they added another person taht WAS at war. When that happens you don't get the warning. Once you see a 3rd person in the fleet that isn't in the same corp as the inviter, you drop immediately. Its a gank. You can turn this around on them if you feel daring though. Go ahead and join, warp with them. Right as your ship starts leaving warp, drop from teh fleet. If you time it right, you will still falsh red to the bad guys but not be a valid target, Concordokken Time it wrong and you get blown up.... Safest method is for YOU to form the fleet like mentioned above. That way you let them warp to their mission and then you follow. Course there will always be the thought in THEIR mind you are going to try the same thing to them, legitimate players will agree (setting themselves up for a gank) while most gankees will turn you down and look for someone else to help. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Malcanis	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:18:00 - [26] Originally by: VInanath Diesel Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I definately think this is one of the game mechanics that need to go. Eve is an MMO and you should be able to help and socialize with people. But now when someone asks for help, it's better to treat him like a leper, because if you don't, chances are big that it's a scam and you're going to be mugged. There is no way to prevent these things from happening (besides never talking to and never flying with another person - ever), and once again, there aren't any consequences for these little brats that commit these crimes. You're either ignorant or a liar. I fly in gangs all the time, and trust implicitly the people in them. Occasionally I fly in gangs with people I don't know, and then I am very careful indeed until they have proved themselves at least a little trustworthy. I don't let people in to my house if I don't think I can trust them, I don't trust them with my bank details unless I think I can trust them, I wouldn't lend them my car or tell them where my sister worked. And that's in real life where there are possible consequences to abusing my trust. Why would I let someone in to my gang unless I trusted them, or at least took steps to ensure they couldn't take advantage? I have to agree with Malcanis, NOWthat I know how this fiasco could have been prevented. I supposed CCP could expand on the Fleet warning a bit, making it clearer of the danger of such scams. Heh, well if you're going to complain about the incomplete and ambiguous documentation in the game you won't find many people in this forum who disagree with you on that. It sounds like although you have had a harsh lesson, you have learned from it and you're not going to whine about it. Props for that, definitely. It's not so much a case of "trust no-one", but "be careful who you trust - and don't trust them more than you need to". CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tamia Clant	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: VInanath Diesel So there I am just waping into a new system in my hard earned pimped out isk printing Shouldn't the latter have cancelled out the former by now? Not at all, he had to come up with the ISK to buy it before he could "print ISK". Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here! http://tinyurl.com/2nh6h2 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url]
Anaalys Fluuterby	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:23:00 - [28] Originally by: VInanath Diesel I have to agree with Malcanis, NOW that I know how this fiasco could have been prevented. I supposed CCP could expand on the Fleet warning a bit, making it clearer of the danger of such scams. I don't believe ignorance should be punished so harshly. and yes I have bounced back, flying a new CNR with fittings. The warning system sucks, I've formed gangs with alliance mates and been told they weren't at war erroneously (we were forming a fleet to go kick the snot out of the corp that wardecced us!!!). Like all complicated systems there are oddities that will never get cleaned up.... Good to hear you recovered Next step, generate some funds and hire a reputable Merc corp to go slaughter them in your name.... They will normally let you "join" in the fun for free if you are paying the bills too. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Ayane Fang	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:26:00 - [29] You asked to be killed, you got what you asked, whatever you want more? A Cookie? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Fink Angel	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis As for the "friendliness" of the game... you know that EvE is supposed to be dark, violent, cold and corrupt? And I wouldn't have it any other way - because the friends I have made in game are all the more valuable precisely because I have to trust them so much. Yeah, I get that, which is why I didn't candy coat my reply too much. I don't trust people I just meet in game, and I don't trust people who I've known long term in game. The only people I'd trust at all are people who came over from my old MMOG guild, and even then I wouldn't trust all of them fully as they are a right bunch of ú$&"*s! I just feel that's a bit of a loss, that's all, obviously not enough to be a game breaker as I wouldn't still be hanging around. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



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