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Caldari interceptor role reversal.

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welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:32:00 - [1] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:32:49 There are two interceptor tiers 1 & 2, the Raptor being tier 1 & the Crow in tier 2. Tier 1 interceptors are the 'tackling' interceptors, ie,, those with a bonus to warp jammer range and inherently lower dps. Tier 2 interceptors are the 'combat' interceptors. They lack the bonus to warp jammer range but their bonuses are focused around their weapons system and so is their slot layout. As any Crow pilot will tell you the ship isn't particuarly suitable for combat beyond tackling. It's a very good ship in its own right but its damage output (and application of damage) is measly in comparison to the other tier 2 interceptors and is barely any better than the Raptors. It used to be good but since the introduction of rigs the average speed of an interceptor has increased beyond the capabilities of its weapons system. My proposal is simple, the Crow stays exactly as it is now except that it gains the warp jammer range bonus. The Raptor becomes the new tier 2 interceptor, with its 4th high moved to a midslot and its grid increased inline with the other combat interceptors. This would allow it to fit a shield extender along with an Mwd and set of 125mm II's, 150mm's would require a fitting mod. This is inline with Caldari philosophy too, lots of midslots. Like I said earlier the Crow is still a fantastic ship but its ability to do damage is based in large on the opponent making mistakes. It isn't the ship that is at fault as such, rather the explosion velocity of the missiles that it uses. As interceptors now reguarly exceed 7km/s it is a rather glaring deficiency for a ship designed as a dog fighter. Off you go then... :) --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:43:00 - [2] No, if anything the crow needs a cap nerf to get inline with other combat interceptors. The problem that the combat interceptors are outperforming their tackling versions is only seen on 3 mid combat interceptors, ie taranis and crow. The crow got a huge boost by the 80% cap bonus because now everyone is fitting a web in the 3rd mid and doing just fine cap wise. Yes, you have to web your target if youre trying to kill another interceptor, but so does a taranis. There is pretty much no reason except made up ones to boost the crow, really... -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:46:00 - [3] The crow is still the best interceptor imho. Even if some of the others are a lot closer now than they used to be. Giving it a scram bonus aswell would make it over the top again. Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:51:00 - [4] Originally by: Brodde Dim You could offcourse fit a web :P They do fit webs and crows + overheated webs pretty much kill other inties if the pilot doesnt fly it like a noob. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:55:00 - [5] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40 Originally by: Brodde Dim ...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage. It is close to impossible to kill a skilled interceptor pilot in a Crow currently because being in web range means they have you webbed and you won't last anywhere near aslong as he will. Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. --------------- you all smell!
chris lares	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:56:00 - [6] I R BELIEVE IN TEH WELSH!! but srsly the crow does need this change because if you try to kill a ceptor going in a straight line you cant because the misssiles cant catch him and just say they could they would hit the hostile ceptor for 0.1 damage which tbh wont do much
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:58:00 - [7] Originally by: welsh wizard Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. So? Crow has to win everything? Btw Ive killed taranis'es with maledictions. You can kite a taranis within webrange, especially if you have overheated web (even if he also has it). A crow using 13km web against another inty will kill them if used the right way. You just want easy mode, press orbit, light up guns and win. Well, if you want an inty dead youll have to get into web range and YES you can quite easily kill other inties in web range because you still have RANGE advantage over many inties. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:04:00 - [8] Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away. Anyone who has any experience in a Crow and the other interceptors care to comment? --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:06:00 - [9] Originally by: welsh wizard Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away. Anyone who has any experience in a Crow and the other interceptors care to comment? So you had no arguments? Because I know you dont have any and youre blaming that on me. I think we all know who knows most about interceptor combat. Ive done 1vs1 against pretty much all inties and I know what they are capable of. Youre claiming crows cant kill anything outside webrange and insta die to all other inties within webrange. IT IS NOT TRUE and you can play all the charades you want. Its not true. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:11:00 - [10] Lyria is right, range differences (and DPS at range differences) within webrange count for a whole lot in small ship combat. A Taranis is next to useless at edges of webrange. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:12:00 - [11] Railranis, blaster ranis fails unless its quicker than the opponent. Unless you're very confident of getting within 5km of your opponent very quickly. I don't dispute this. --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/04/2008 12:21:53 Originally by: welsh wizard edit: Anyway this isn't supposed to be about the bloody Crow, its about the reversal of roles and heavy modifcation to the Raptor. If you think it'll overpower the Crow as a tackler i'm almost inclined to agree with you, as combat inty its not in the same league as the other 3 though. What about the Raptor? The inties are failed by design overall from the beginning imo. -Why does minmatar have the 4 mid inty but the caldari dont? If anything raptor should have 4 mids and stiletto either 3-4 -Either all combat inties should have minimum of 3 mids OR they shouldnt be allowed to fit webs. Why? Because combat inties with 3 mids obsolete their tackling version, taranis/crow obsolete ares/raptor. -cap recharge vs gun cap usage needs to be looked at so all inties can use guns + mwd equally long time. There pretty much needs to be a total redo of pretty much all the inties to rebalance it again. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:35:00 - [13] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 12:36:31 Theres always going to be a use for a 30km point so I'm not sure I agree with the 'obsolete' bit. Before the changes I'd agree with you though. I'm aware of your point with the crow and claw not using any cap where as the ranis and crusader do but a largely ineffective weapons system and only 2 midslots more than offsets this balance (imo). The crusader comes off worst here I guess but it usually has the longevity and damage to win out anyway. I guess heat and rigs have alot to answer for wrt killing the dogfight but the benefits of both have made the game more entertaining in other areas, that cant be denied. --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:40:00 - [14] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 12:36:31 Theres always going to be a use for a 30km point so I'm not sure I agree with the 'obsolete' bit. When was the last time you saw an ares or raptor? I sure dont see them often compared to crows, taranis etc. Imagine if crusader would have a 4/3/3 slot layout instead of 4/2/4. No one would use a malediction just for the few km extra scram range. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Iteken Hotori	Posted - 2008.04.02 13:01:00 - [15] This is a great thread, and i can see it going great places. Havig killed Crows and taranii in a stiltto, drunk, I would like to point out that anecdotal evidence is the best thing. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.04.02 13:33:00 - [16] Why would you fit a shield extender on an interceptor?! You increase your sig radius - the whole point of an interceptor is to avoid damage in the first place. If you get hit, a shield extender isn't going to save you anyways. I think the cap-weapon using interceptors need more cap to be able to tackle and fire their weapons while their friends blow up the target. Right now they have to fit mods to have enough grid and cap to accomplish this - and instead have no room for speed mods and fail at their original purpose of fast tackling. Crow is fine as it is - a scram range bonus would make it overpowered. If you really want to avoid heavy neuts - try a domination 30km scram. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 13:46:00 - [17] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 13:47:33 Originally by: Omarvelous ... If you really want to avoid heavy neuts - try a domination 30km scram. Thanks for that invaluable advice. For dog fighting fitting a shield extender doesn't make any difference, you're going to get tracked and hit in web range by small guns anyway. You're right when it comes to tackling bigger ships but you don't need a shield extender for that purpose. Basically the Crow needs to web its target to kill it but entering web range of another interceptor invariably means you end up dead because it doesn't have the dps or the staying power to come out on top. It has the least EHP and the least dps of all four combat inties (when fit for general use) which suggests that it needs to out-range its opponent. However, outranging means no web which means almost nil possiblity of victory against an intelligent interceptor pilot that exceeds 6,500m/s. Like I said before the ship isn't the problem, its an inherent weakness attributed to missile explosion velocity. I'm also aware that it treads a very fine line, increasing explosion velocity could easily make it overpowered as it can sustain its range and do damage however in its current guise it just isn't a combat inty. This is why I'd suggest making it the tackling interceptor as it can't apply its damage anyway and changing the Raptor to be more of a sustainable gunship in web range. Guns very much > missiles in current interceptor combat. That may not have been true 12 months ago but it certainly is now. --------------- you all smell!
Bronson Hughes	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:54:00 - [18] Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 02/04/2008 14:54:49 Originally by: welsh wizard its ability to do damage is based in large on the opponent making mistakes This is true of every Interceptor, not just the Crow. If two equally fast turret Interceptor pilots are flying their ships properly, neither one should be able to hit the other because of the high angular velocity; as long as neither one stops (i.e. gets webbed or bumps into something) or goes in a straight line for too long, they'll both be relatively immune to each other. The same pretty much applies to the Crow and the Malediction. The only difference is that the missile Interceptors can sit back at max point range with their MWD running and spam missiles all day long against bigger targets and pretty much be immune to incoming fire whereas the turret Interceptors can't due to tracking and/or cap issues. They have a harder time attacking super fast Interceptors, but they have a much easier time attacking bigger things with thier MWDs running. If you made the Crow into a Tackler Interceptor (i.e. less missile damage, longer point range) it would be incredibly overpowered because then it could do really good damage to slower targets even further from web range. This isn't an issue with the Malediciton because it's damage bonus applies specifically to rockets so to get it's damage bonus it has to fight in web range. In short, the Crow is fine. It has different strengths than the other Combat Interceptors but that doesn't mean it's broken. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:59:00 - [19] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 14:59:42 Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...This isn't an issue with the Malediciton because it's damage bonus applies specifically to rockets so to get it's damage bonus it has to fight in web range. Thats your prerogative and has nothing to do with balance what so ever. Needless to say I acknowledge your points but think you're making far too much of the Crows strengths. 12 months ago you had a point, not now since the hitpoint buff and increased speed across the board though. --------------- you all smell!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:06:00 - [20] Does anyone even read Lyria's posts anymore? I mean, the ridiculous bias was amusing at first, but now it's just gotten boring.

Lady Krysta Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:24:00 - [21] ... The thing I've learnt about Inty's - is that they are mainly tacklers, not so much DPS ships. Doesn't being really fast, and high DPS kind of make it pointless flying anything else...? Out of my experience fitting Inty's, I ALWAYS go for speed, slap on a web, an afterburner (mwd increase sig - so only fit if you have the skills to go VERY fast), sometimes a painter or a warp disruptor if I have a spare slot. I use Amarr ships, so T2 Small Dual Pulse Lasers. An energy vamp of somekind makes up the 4th slot. Nanofibers in low slots, reactor mod if needed because of skills... I can't DPS very well due to setting my char up for tackling, but if I want a DPS, I'd go for something else, HAC maybe? I've seen some hideously powerful ones, and fairly fast...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 02/04/2008 15:10:46 Does anyone even read Lyria's posts anymore? I mean, the ridiculous bias was amusing at first, but now it's just gotten boring. I think the crow is ok as is, though higly overrated. It does not, contrary to Lyria's claims, need a nerf. Raptor needs a ton of work though, more than any other interceptor. Last patch only made it worse O.o Maybe you should read my post and then explain why the crow is the most commonly flown and most expensive interceptor in the game. As I said, if you want to fix the interceptor balance you have to pretty much redo all inties. With heat added some interceptors, the high dps ones like taranis, will face pwn the others because it can overcome its one disadvantage (speed) long enough to catch the opponent. The only reason why no one uses raptor and ares is because crow and taranis have 3 mids. If you would remove a mid from crow and taranis youd see alot more people flying raptor. Does your post actually have a solution like my post or are you just making claims that are vaguely true? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Red Wid0w	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Red Wid0w on 02/04/2008 15:54:52 Lyria you are clueless. Crow is the most flown interceptor in the game because most players like orbiting stuff bennyhill style and shooting missiles. It excels at killing t1 cruisers and that's about it. All other combat interceptors see the Crow as a free kill. Ares is best tackler in the game (30km point, uber speed, 3 medslots), maybe the people in your area of space didn't get the memo yet? Ares can even kill Crow lol.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Red Wid0w Edited by: Red Wid0w on 02/04/2008 15:54:52 maybe the people in your area of space didn't get the memo yet? Im pretty sure they didnt. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Ulstan Raptor needs a ton of work though, more than any other interceptor. Last patch only made it worse O.o The last patch didn't break the Raptor so much as change it from a railboat to a blasterboat. If you're hunting T1 cruisers or similar prey you can load it with T2 ions loaded with null and a rocket launcher. It's still terribly slow for an Interceptor (even if you try to fit it for speed), but it'll do over 100DPS without breaking a sweat. It's rather like a Taranis with a tackling range bonus minus some DPS and the drones. Originally by: Red Wid0w Ares is best tackler in the game (30km point, uber speed, 3 medslots)... Ares can even kill Crow QFT. It'll never win in a DPS race, but for running someone down and getting a point and a web on them, nothing will touch the Ares. I've seen an Ares win in a fight against a Crow, but it was a long and boring fight; even though the Crow isn't exactly tough, one unbonused Standard launcher still takes forever to kill it, lol. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:37:00 - [26] I have about 200 kills in a Crow (and my share of losses) and I think this is a very silly idea. Right now, there's a good balance between the Ares, Stiletto, Malediction, and Crow as long-range tackling interceptors. The Ares is a fantastic tackler, but does no damage. The Malediction does more damage, but isn't quite as fast. The Stiletto isn't quite as fast either, but has an extra mid for better cap or faster lock speed with an SB. Finally, the Crow has poorer scram range and doesn't have the 14.5 AU warp speed, but does twice as much damage as a Malediction and has the missile velocity bonus for range. As a result, I find myself using all four, depending on the situation and my inclination. Isn't that a good thing? If you gave the Crow a scram range bonus, suddenly the Stiletto and Malediction look way less appealing in comparison; they would basically be Crows that can't defend themselves. The Malediction would have no reason to ever fit standard missiles and tackle compared to the Crow, making its scram range bonus look pretty silly. The Stiletto would be useful pretty much only for gatecamping, and the Ares might still potentially get a little bit of use for a pure tackler, mostly because it's half the price. Basically, I know I would always fly a Crow over any of those in any realistic situation. Why would you want this to be the case? (Of course, feel free to do what you want to the Raptor. I just think that it's ridiculous to buff Crows just because other long-range interceptors have finally become reasonable alternatives to it.)
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:43:00 - [27] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40 Originally by: Brodde Dim ...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage. Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... I suspect it's a combination of the slight inconvenience of fitting T2 SMLs (grid-wise), the ten second reload time, and the speed penalty. All three mean that it's kind of a pain in the ass to have precision lights ready to go when you need them to kill another interceptor.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:50:00 - [29] Quote: The only reason why no one uses raptor and ares is because crow and taranis have 3 mids. WTF? Ares is awesome. And my post didn't contain any solutions to the crow because I think it's ok how it is.
Lubomir Penev	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Lubomir Penev Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... I suspect it's a combination of the slight inconvenience of fitting T2 SMLs (grid-wise), the ten second reload time, and the speed penalty. All three mean that it's kind of a pain in the ass to have precision lights ready to go when you need them to kill another interceptor. I'm part of the AWU5 aristocracy (long holiday ftw, would not have been my choice of skill to train while playing tbh), full t2 crow is just natural . When I see hostile inties on scan I load them, still fast enough to speed tank decently with them loaded. Getting caught by an inty with non precision missiles would indeed be bad news. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!



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