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welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:32:00 - [1] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:32:49 There are two interceptor tiers 1 & 2, the Raptor being tier 1 & the Crow in tier 2. Tier 1 interceptors are the 'tackling' interceptors, ie,, those with a bonus to warp jammer range and inherently lower dps. Tier 2 interceptors are the 'combat' interceptors. They lack the bonus to warp jammer range but their bonuses are focused around their weapons system and so is their slot layout. As any Crow pilot will tell you the ship isn't particuarly suitable for combat beyond tackling. It's a very good ship in its own right but its damage output (and application of damage) is measly in comparison to the other tier 2 interceptors and is barely any better than the Raptors. It used to be good but since the introduction of rigs the average speed of an interceptor has increased beyond the capabilities of its weapons system. My proposal is simple, the Crow stays exactly as it is now except that it gains the warp jammer range bonus. The Raptor becomes the new tier 2 interceptor, with its 4th high moved to a midslot and its grid increased inline with the other combat interceptors. This would allow it to fit a shield extender along with an Mwd and set of 125mm II's, 150mm's would require a fitting mod. This is inline with Caldari philosophy too, lots of midslots. Like I said earlier the Crow is still a fantastic ship but its ability to do damage is based in large on the opponent making mistakes. It isn't the ship that is at fault as such, rather the explosion velocity of the missiles that it uses. As interceptors now reguarly exceed 7km/s it is a rather glaring deficiency for a ship designed as a dog fighter. Off you go then... :) --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:43:00 - [2] No, if anything the crow needs a cap nerf to get inline with other combat interceptors. The problem that the combat interceptors are outperforming their tackling versions is only seen on 3 mid combat interceptors, ie taranis and crow. The crow got a huge boost by the 80% cap bonus because now everyone is fitting a web in the 3rd mid and doing just fine cap wise. Yes, you have to web your target if youre trying to kill another interceptor, but so does a taranis. There is pretty much no reason except made up ones to boost the crow, really... -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:46:00 - [3] The crow is still the best interceptor imho. Even if some of the others are a lot closer now than they used to be. Giving it a scram bonus aswell would make it over the top again. Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:51:00 - [4] Originally by: Brodde Dim You could offcourse fit a web :P They do fit webs and crows + overheated webs pretty much kill other inties if the pilot doesnt fly it like a noob. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:55:00 - [5] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40 Originally by: Brodde Dim ...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage. It is close to impossible to kill a skilled interceptor pilot in a Crow currently because being in web range means they have you webbed and you won't last anywhere near aslong as he will. Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. --------------- you all smell!
chris lares	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:56:00 - [6] I R BELIEVE IN TEH WELSH!! but srsly the crow does need this change because if you try to kill a ceptor going in a straight line you cant because the misssiles cant catch him and just say they could they would hit the hostile ceptor for 0.1 damage which tbh wont do much
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:58:00 - [7] Originally by: welsh wizard Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. So? Crow has to win everything? Btw Ive killed taranis'es with maledictions. You can kite a taranis within webrange, especially if you have overheated web (even if he also has it). A crow using 13km web against another inty will kill them if used the right way. You just want easy mode, press orbit, light up guns and win. Well, if you want an inty dead youll have to get into web range and YES you can quite easily kill other inties in web range because you still have RANGE advantage over many inties. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:04:00 - [8] Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away. Anyone who has any experience in a Crow and the other interceptors care to comment? --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:06:00 - [9] Originally by: welsh wizard Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away. Anyone who has any experience in a Crow and the other interceptors care to comment? So you had no arguments? Because I know you dont have any and youre blaming that on me. I think we all know who knows most about interceptor combat. Ive done 1vs1 against pretty much all inties and I know what they are capable of. Youre claiming crows cant kill anything outside webrange and insta die to all other inties within webrange. IT IS NOT TRUE and you can play all the charades you want. Its not true. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:11:00 - [10] Lyria is right, range differences (and DPS at range differences) within webrange count for a whole lot in small ship combat. A Taranis is next to useless at edges of webrange. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:12:00 - [11] Railranis, blaster ranis fails unless its quicker than the opponent. Unless you're very confident of getting within 5km of your opponent very quickly. I don't dispute this. --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/04/2008 12:21:53 Originally by: welsh wizard edit: Anyway this isn't supposed to be about the bloody Crow, its about the reversal of roles and heavy modifcation to the Raptor. If you think it'll overpower the Crow as a tackler i'm almost inclined to agree with you, as combat inty its not in the same league as the other 3 though. What about the Raptor? The inties are failed by design overall from the beginning imo. -Why does minmatar have the 4 mid inty but the caldari dont? If anything raptor should have 4 mids and stiletto either 3-4 -Either all combat inties should have minimum of 3 mids OR they shouldnt be allowed to fit webs. Why? Because combat inties with 3 mids obsolete their tackling version, taranis/crow obsolete ares/raptor. -cap recharge vs gun cap usage needs to be looked at so all inties can use guns + mwd equally long time. There pretty much needs to be a total redo of pretty much all the inties to rebalance it again. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:35:00 - [13] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 12:36:31 Theres always going to be a use for a 30km point so I'm not sure I agree with the 'obsolete' bit. Before the changes I'd agree with you though. I'm aware of your point with the crow and claw not using any cap where as the ranis and crusader do but a largely ineffective weapons system and only 2 midslots more than offsets this balance (imo). The crusader comes off worst here I guess but it usually has the longevity and damage to win out anyway. I guess heat and rigs have alot to answer for wrt killing the dogfight but the benefits of both have made the game more entertaining in other areas, that cant be denied. --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:40:00 - [14] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 12:36:31 Theres always going to be a use for a 30km point so I'm not sure I agree with the 'obsolete' bit. When was the last time you saw an ares or raptor? I sure dont see them often compared to crows, taranis etc. Imagine if crusader would have a 4/3/3 slot layout instead of 4/2/4. No one would use a malediction just for the few km extra scram range. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Iteken Hotori	Posted - 2008.04.02 13:01:00 - [15] This is a great thread, and i can see it going great places. Havig killed Crows and taranii in a stiltto, drunk, I would like to point out that anecdotal evidence is the best thing. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.04.02 13:33:00 - [16] Why would you fit a shield extender on an interceptor?! You increase your sig radius - the whole point of an interceptor is to avoid damage in the first place. If you get hit, a shield extender isn't going to save you anyways. I think the cap-weapon using interceptors need more cap to be able to tackle and fire their weapons while their friends blow up the target. Right now they have to fit mods to have enough grid and cap to accomplish this - and instead have no room for speed mods and fail at their original purpose of fast tackling. Crow is fine as it is - a scram range bonus would make it overpowered. If you really want to avoid heavy neuts - try a domination 30km scram. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 13:46:00 - [17] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 13:47:33 Originally by: Omarvelous ... If you really want to avoid heavy neuts - try a domination 30km scram. Thanks for that invaluable advice. For dog fighting fitting a shield extender doesn't make any difference, you're going to get tracked and hit in web range by small guns anyway. You're right when it comes to tackling bigger ships but you don't need a shield extender for that purpose. Basically the Crow needs to web its target to kill it but entering web range of another interceptor invariably means you end up dead because it doesn't have the dps or the staying power to come out on top. It has the least EHP and the least dps of all four combat inties (when fit for general use) which suggests that it needs to out-range its opponent. However, outranging means no web which means almost nil possiblity of victory against an intelligent interceptor pilot that exceeds 6,500m/s. Like I said before the ship isn't the problem, its an inherent weakness attributed to missile explosion velocity. I'm also aware that it treads a very fine line, increasing explosion velocity could easily make it overpowered as it can sustain its range and do damage however in its current guise it just isn't a combat inty. This is why I'd suggest making it the tackling interceptor as it can't apply its damage anyway and changing the Raptor to be more of a sustainable gunship in web range. Guns very much > missiles in current interceptor combat. That may not have been true 12 months ago but it certainly is now. --------------- you all smell!
Bronson Hughes	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:54:00 - [18] Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 02/04/2008 14:54:49 Originally by: welsh wizard its ability to do damage is based in large on the opponent making mistakes This is true of every Interceptor, not just the Crow. If two equally fast turret Interceptor pilots are flying their ships properly, neither one should be able to hit the other because of the high angular velocity; as long as neither one stops (i.e. gets webbed or bumps into something) or goes in a straight line for too long, they'll both be relatively immune to each other. The same pretty much applies to the Crow and the Malediction. The only difference is that the missile Interceptors can sit back at max point range with their MWD running and spam missiles all day long against bigger targets and pretty much be immune to incoming fire whereas the turret Interceptors can't due to tracking and/or cap issues. They have a harder time attacking super fast Interceptors, but they have a much easier time attacking bigger things with thier MWDs running. If you made the Crow into a Tackler Interceptor (i.e. less missile damage, longer point range) it would be incredibly overpowered because then it could do really good damage to slower targets even further from web range. This isn't an issue with the Malediciton because it's damage bonus applies specifically to rockets so to get it's damage bonus it has to fight in web range. In short, the Crow is fine. It has different strengths than the other Combat Interceptors but that doesn't mean it's broken. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:59:00 - [19] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 14:59:42 Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...This isn't an issue with the Malediciton because it's damage bonus applies specifically to rockets so to get it's damage bonus it has to fight in web range. Thats your prerogative and has nothing to do with balance what so ever. Needless to say I acknowledge your points but think you're making far too much of the Crows strengths. 12 months ago you had a point, not now since the hitpoint buff and increased speed across the board though. --------------- you all smell!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:06:00 - [20] Does anyone even read Lyria's posts anymore? I mean, the ridiculous bias was amusing at first, but now it's just gotten boring.

Lady Krysta Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:24:00 - [21] ... The thing I've learnt about Inty's - is that they are mainly tacklers, not so much DPS ships. Doesn't being really fast, and high DPS kind of make it pointless flying anything else...? Out of my experience fitting Inty's, I ALWAYS go for speed, slap on a web, an afterburner (mwd increase sig - so only fit if you have the skills to go VERY fast), sometimes a painter or a warp disruptor if I have a spare slot. I use Amarr ships, so T2 Small Dual Pulse Lasers. An energy vamp of somekind makes up the 4th slot. Nanofibers in low slots, reactor mod if needed because of skills... I can't DPS very well due to setting my char up for tackling, but if I want a DPS, I'd go for something else, HAC maybe? I've seen some hideously powerful ones, and fairly fast...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 02/04/2008 15:10:46 Does anyone even read Lyria's posts anymore? I mean, the ridiculous bias was amusing at first, but now it's just gotten boring. I think the crow is ok as is, though higly overrated. It does not, contrary to Lyria's claims, need a nerf. Raptor needs a ton of work though, more than any other interceptor. Last patch only made it worse O.o Maybe you should read my post and then explain why the crow is the most commonly flown and most expensive interceptor in the game. As I said, if you want to fix the interceptor balance you have to pretty much redo all inties. With heat added some interceptors, the high dps ones like taranis, will face pwn the others because it can overcome its one disadvantage (speed) long enough to catch the opponent. The only reason why no one uses raptor and ares is because crow and taranis have 3 mids. If you would remove a mid from crow and taranis youd see alot more people flying raptor. Does your post actually have a solution like my post or are you just making claims that are vaguely true? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Red Wid0w	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Red Wid0w on 02/04/2008 15:54:52 Lyria you are clueless. Crow is the most flown interceptor in the game because most players like orbiting stuff bennyhill style and shooting missiles. It excels at killing t1 cruisers and that's about it. All other combat interceptors see the Crow as a free kill. Ares is best tackler in the game (30km point, uber speed, 3 medslots), maybe the people in your area of space didn't get the memo yet? Ares can even kill Crow lol.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Red Wid0w Edited by: Red Wid0w on 02/04/2008 15:54:52 maybe the people in your area of space didn't get the memo yet? Im pretty sure they didnt. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Ulstan Raptor needs a ton of work though, more than any other interceptor. Last patch only made it worse O.o The last patch didn't break the Raptor so much as change it from a railboat to a blasterboat. If you're hunting T1 cruisers or similar prey you can load it with T2 ions loaded with null and a rocket launcher. It's still terribly slow for an Interceptor (even if you try to fit it for speed), but it'll do over 100DPS without breaking a sweat. It's rather like a Taranis with a tackling range bonus minus some DPS and the drones. Originally by: Red Wid0w Ares is best tackler in the game (30km point, uber speed, 3 medslots)... Ares can even kill Crow QFT. It'll never win in a DPS race, but for running someone down and getting a point and a web on them, nothing will touch the Ares. I've seen an Ares win in a fight against a Crow, but it was a long and boring fight; even though the Crow isn't exactly tough, one unbonused Standard launcher still takes forever to kill it, lol. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:37:00 - [26] I have about 200 kills in a Crow (and my share of losses) and I think this is a very silly idea. Right now, there's a good balance between the Ares, Stiletto, Malediction, and Crow as long-range tackling interceptors. The Ares is a fantastic tackler, but does no damage. The Malediction does more damage, but isn't quite as fast. The Stiletto isn't quite as fast either, but has an extra mid for better cap or faster lock speed with an SB. Finally, the Crow has poorer scram range and doesn't have the 14.5 AU warp speed, but does twice as much damage as a Malediction and has the missile velocity bonus for range. As a result, I find myself using all four, depending on the situation and my inclination. Isn't that a good thing? If you gave the Crow a scram range bonus, suddenly the Stiletto and Malediction look way less appealing in comparison; they would basically be Crows that can't defend themselves. The Malediction would have no reason to ever fit standard missiles and tackle compared to the Crow, making its scram range bonus look pretty silly. The Stiletto would be useful pretty much only for gatecamping, and the Ares might still potentially get a little bit of use for a pure tackler, mostly because it's half the price. Basically, I know I would always fly a Crow over any of those in any realistic situation. Why would you want this to be the case? (Of course, feel free to do what you want to the Raptor. I just think that it's ridiculous to buff Crows just because other long-range interceptors have finally become reasonable alternatives to it.)
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:43:00 - [27] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40 Originally by: Brodde Dim ...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage. Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... I suspect it's a combination of the slight inconvenience of fitting T2 SMLs (grid-wise), the ten second reload time, and the speed penalty. All three mean that it's kind of a pain in the ass to have precision lights ready to go when you need them to kill another interceptor.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:50:00 - [29] Quote: The only reason why no one uses raptor and ares is because crow and taranis have 3 mids. WTF? Ares is awesome. And my post didn't contain any solutions to the crow because I think it's ok how it is.
Lubomir Penev	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Lubomir Penev Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... I suspect it's a combination of the slight inconvenience of fitting T2 SMLs (grid-wise), the ten second reload time, and the speed penalty. All three mean that it's kind of a pain in the ass to have precision lights ready to go when you need them to kill another interceptor. I'm part of the AWU5 aristocracy (long holiday ftw, would not have been my choice of skill to train while playing tbh), full t2 crow is just natural . When I see hostile inties on scan I load them, still fast enough to speed tank decently with them loaded. Getting caught by an inty with non precision missiles would indeed be bad news. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!

Red Wid0w	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:14:00 - [31] Edited by: Red Wid0w on 02/04/2008 17:16:55 Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic. Crow needs to be CHANGED (not buffed or nerfed) because it is absolutely the worst in it's class. It is supposed to be a combat interceptor, designed for killing other intys/frigs. Just like the Claw, Taranis and Crusader. The Crow fails so badly at it's role that it loses to tackler intys like ares/stiletto. I would suggest changing it's 10% damage bonus to a 5% (to all missile type) bonus, and giving it an extra 5/10% explosion velocity bonus as well. This would let it hit interceptors with it's missiles and fulfill it's role. Ofc massive whining will ensue because people don't use the Crow in it's role. As for the Raptor.....well you got me there
Lubomir Penev	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Red Wid0w Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic. I killed a 6+km/s malediction like 2 days ago... For one two inties dog fighting won't be at max speed, your average 6.5km/s inty is more like 5.5km/s actually orbiting... Will slow down more the moment one swith from orbit to approach... Precision lights definily don't work on pimped inties, but hit decently well the unrigged one. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:26:00 - [33] Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 02/04/2008 17:31:19 Originally by: Red Wid0w Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic. Precisions will hit 5-6km/s inties, which is the speed that a T2 interceptor trying to kill you will be flying. Regardless, I don't claim that a Crow is a great anti-interceptor ship. I don't really fight other interceptors in mine unless they are Ares or Stilettoes or something (or other Crows.) Originally by: Red Wid0w Crow needs to be CHANGED (not buffed or nerfed) because it is absolutely the worst in it's class. It is supposed to be a combat interceptor, designed for killing other intys/frigs. Just like the Claw, Taranis and Crusader. The Crow fails so badly at it's role that it loses to tackler intys like ares/stiletto. I don't understand why you are claiming this. The Crow's role is a tackling interceptor that can do sufficient long-range reliable DPS to kill other frigate-sized ships and defend itself against drones. I fly Taranises and Crusaders (not a fan of Claws) and the Crow is not at all similar to those, so I don't know why you want to compare it to them. I also am at a loss as to why and under what circumstances you think a Crow would "lose" (does that mean die?) to an Ares or a Stiletto. The Crow is a good, balanced interceptor, as is evidenced by its popularity. I maintain that a buff would make it pretty overpowered as opposed to other, similar interceptors, like the Malediction and Stiletto.
Red Wid0w	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:26:00 - [34] They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. It's embarassing to lose to Crow.
Bronson Hughes	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Red Wid0w They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. True, but any turret Interceptor would have trouble hitting anything orbiting them at ~5km/s too. Also, keep in mind that the Crow can usually start firing from further away; as long as the Crow isn't approaching it's target directly it should get at least a few volleys off before another Interceptor is even in range. That's usually enough to either scare the other Interceptor pilot off or overcome their superior DPS. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 20:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Red Wid0w They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. It's embarassing to lose to Crow. Have you even compared range and dps for the long range interceptors? You do know crows dps is pretty darn good for its range. But let me guess, youre comparing crow dps to rockets, blasters and pulse lasers right? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40 Originally by: Brodde Dim ...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage. Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... No I use them too because I can afford to lose the speed, you do 75% damage against a 6km/s interceptor but there isnt many 6km/s inties about anymore. They're certainly not good enough to solve the problem. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Red Wid0w They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. It's embarassing to lose to Crow. Have you even compared range and dps for the long range interceptors? You do know crows dps is pretty darn good for its range. But let me guess, youre comparing crow dps to rockets, blasters and pulse lasers right? Doesn't make any difference if they do zero damage at the will of the opposing inty pilot does it? --------------- you all smell!
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:22:00 - [39] Glad to see a thread where Lyria acually does well. And the only one to actually even respond to her posts it Welsh himself. Who is known to be as biased as the next guy. I still consider the crow to be one of the strongest inties in the game. The targetting range and speed alone makes it great. Some of the other needs a sensor booster just to be able to utilize a run of the mill t2 disruptor to it's full extent. Being able to deal damage is an awesome bonus on top of that. In practice there's an endless amount of variables that means any intie can win, but no platform is as good as the crow, or the new malediction. Being independant of range is no small boon. Postcount: 80390
Parfait M North Face Force	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:10:00 - [40] Edited by: Parfait M on 02/04/2008 23:13:52 Crow + Domi web + overheat = Insane I'm sorry, but you'll be pretty hard pressed to get in range of that crow pilot if he isn't asleep, hungover and high. I didn't even need any faction mods on my ship except for the domi web. Hell, it was my first Crow. I only got a 140-odd kills with it, but I solo'd two vagas, a drake, a raven, and some other assorted crap with it, and squeezed 100 dps with it, which will break most cruiser tanks. God knows if I actually spent more than a month in it what I could do. I eventually lost it to a, surprise, neuting + webbing vaga. >_> The only reason Crow is so good is that it doesn't have to slow down to shoot, it's so noob friendly. EDIT: To be fair, the first Vaga I soloed had an absolutely abysmal fit. He actually wanted me to ransom him. To try to solo one with a Crow is one of the dumbest things you can try. With the fit I had, it ALL relies on whether or not the vaga has a neut. Staying at 18km even at 12km/s, I still could easily get knocked the ** out. Getting closer risks being neuted. ------- Drink apple juice; OJ will KILL YOU**!

Monticore D'Muertos Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:31:00 - [41] Edited by: Monticore D''Muertos on 02/04/2008 23:33:17 don't forget that 4th high a 150mm t2 ac first nicely and adds 20+ dps so my crow pumps out 83dps with caldari navy bloodclaws not uber but way more than those fitting a salvager in that 4th high. and precision lights help alot even a faster ceptor if you zig zag abit he has slowed down few times turning with you and is in trouble if he doesnt web ya fast enough. and 3x rockets 1x 150mm mwd/web/t2 med extender mapc/speed mods can be a nice surprise to a short ranged ceptor he does the work of getting into web range for you
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:32:00 - [42] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 23:32:42 Originally by: NoNah ...The targetting range and speed alone makes it great. The lowest scan resolution of all the interceptors. i agree though, the targeting range is nice. Quote: Being able to deal damage is an awesome bonus on top of that. In practice there's an endless amount of variables that means any intie can win, but no platform is as good as the crow, or the new malediction. Being independant of range is no small boon. Then your experience with crows is limited and very dated. Any experienced and moderately quick inty pilot that loses a dogfight to a Crow made some whopping mistakes. --------------- you all smell!
Deserak Rifter Corp	Posted - 2008.04.03 03:41:00 - [43] Am I the only one who has found that a nicely plated rocket crow with a web is generally just fine as a killing machine for other interceptors. Yes it isn't as fast, but the damage is quite good and the speed is still usable. Web them as soon as possible, overheating helps, and lay into them with rockets. Most interceptors will have to keep closing at webbed speeds will you do your best to run away. Granted you are slower, and they will eventaully catch you. However, if you can maintain an 8-9km range for even a few volleys chances are they explode long before it becomes a serious problem. It just requires a little clever work to get yourself into the right postion to pull it off. Granted a rocket crow has to be extremely careful around larger targets when compared to a missile crow. Then again that is nothing new for most combat ceptors. As to the raptor, works dandy as a tackler as long as you never aim to use weapons for more then shooting other frigates and drones. With blasters it can even put out some decent damage. Also, let us not forget it is incredibly cheap, even compared to other interceptors.
Ralara D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.03 07:05:00 - [44] Originally by: welsh wizard Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away. Anyone who has any experience in a Crow and the other interceptors care to comment? Standard tech 2 fit crow is a nice ship, but I wouldn't take it near a Taranis. -- Ralara / Ralarina
Delichon The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.03 08:02:00 - [45] T2 lights are nice. Taranis pilot approaches me in order to web and then - poof, a considerable chunk of his shield is out. He goes "wtf???" and warps out. Happened twice, I think, and accidently - both time in Branch :) Honestly, Welsh, I think that making Raptor a "muscle inty" maybe a viable idea, yet making a Crow a tackling inty is too good to be true. Perma-MWDing outside of heavy-neut range, damaging and disrapting is nothing short of solo-pwnmobile. True - as is Crow is not really uber against other inties, but maybe it is about Crow. Say we switch missile speed to ROF bonus, increasing DPS, yet droping the range of lights to "just outside of web" and rockets to "in web". ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Wardeneo	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:35:00 - [46] Originally by: NoNah Glad to see a thread where Lyria acually does well. And the only one to actually even respond to her posts it Welsh himself. Who is known to be as biased as the next guy. I still consider the crow to be one of the strongest inties in the game. The targetting range and speed alone makes it great. Some of the other needs a sensor booster just to be able to utilize a run of the mill t2 disruptor to it's full extent. Being able to deal damage is an awesome bonus on top of that. In practice there's an endless amount of variables that means any intie can win, but no platform is as good as the crow, or the new malediction. Being independant of range is no small boon. agreed, i have lost many sips to a crow because i simply cant hit it (orbiting over 6km/s atover 20km) is pretty dar hard - so now ppl want 2 make it the best again (relive the age of the crow) by giving it the long range scram boni - where it can avoid bs neuts, perma run mwd whislt orbiting outa bs neut range adn whislt only using cheap t2 mds - this is where i say stfu and get realistic u want 2 avoid bs neuts and still be able 2 do everything u can imaging - get a domi scram - its costs a **** load but will increase ur survivabilty alot, lyria is right the crow is good enuff it dont need a role reversal, end off the raptor is a good ship but needs 2 be used well same with ares, but ppl just want the east orbit - fire - win option and in my oppinion the crow does this the best whils loking liek a realy benny hill style ship so yea thast what i think /me puts flame suit on wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Iteken Hotori	Posted - 2008.04.03 15:16:00 - [47] yo yo yo i iz a caldari achura 'coz caldari is da bestest and they fire missilez and they go zoom zoom. crowz are teh pimpest i have a gistii a-tipe afterburner 'coz of my sig radius and i hav snakez and i go 6000 and fire prcizion missilez and i am best pilot coz my crow is most espenzive an i kill rifter and onz got a harbniger to armour lolz Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Red Wid0w	Posted - 2008.04.03 15:34:00 - [48] All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:31:00 - [49] Originally by: Red Wid0w All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned. This is true but the crows general utility makes up for it, however, I would not be against a damage increase for the crow and the raptor needs a complete rebalancing tbqh. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Parfait M North Face Force	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:33:00 - [50] Originally by: Red Wid0w All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned. I ***** lol'd HARD. ------- Drink apple juice; OJ will KILL YOU**!

Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:41:00 - [51] Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Red Wid0w All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned. This is true... What? No, it isn't!
Emeline Cabernet Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.04 02:24:00 - [52] lol this a good troll hi i like to make my ship better too
Rawr Cristina	Posted - 2008.04.04 02:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Red Wid0w Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic. Don't forget that precision missiles nerf your speed too. They really need to be fixed IMO - it's depressing to see the fastest, lightest weapons in the game do 0 damage even to certain HACs ... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Caelum Dominus Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.04 07:27:00 - [54] Originally by: welsh wizard Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away. Oh, the irony. Get a clue, welsh.
Semkhet Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.04 07:55:00 - [55] Originally by: welsh wizard The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. The Crow is the only ceptor which: - Can use bonused weapons no matter the speed or flight profile. - Has the biggest default locking range. - Can use weapons with equal effectiveness no matter the distance up to the locking range limit. - Can switch damage type if needed. - Can permarun a Gistii-A MWD and Domi disruptor without additional cap mods. So in my book it's still the best ceptor since it's the only one which is really worth getting pimped. And btw, you can get 80 dps out of a Crow, what is pretty confortable for a ship which can't be countered by anything else than ECM, rapiers/huginns/hyenas, neuts or a faster ceptor.
Caelum Dominus Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.04 08:01:00 - [56] Originally by: Semkhet The Crow is the only ceptor which: - Can use bonused weapons no matter the speed or flight profile. - Has the biggest default locking range. - Can use weapons with equal effectiveness no matter the distance up to the locking range limit. - Can switch damage type if needed. - Can permarun a Gistii-A MWD and Domi disruptor without additional cap mods. Uh, no. Malediction can also switch damage types, and it can also perma-run MWD and Disruptor.
Scout McAlt State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.04 08:04:00 - [57] Combat versions are better tacklers currently because the need for longer scram range is not that required, since both ships fight outside web range. If webs were scrambler range, then the tackler class would shine again.
Semkhet	Posted - 2008.04.04 08:17:00 - [58] Originally by: Caelum Dominus Originally by: Semkhet The Crow is the only ceptor which: - Can use bonused weapons no matter the speed or flight profile. - Has the biggest default locking range. - Can use weapons with equal effectiveness no matter the distance up to the locking range limit. - Can switch damage type if needed. - Can permarun a Gistii-A MWD and Domi disruptor without additional cap mods. Uh, no. Malediction can also switch damage types, and it can also perma-run MWD and Disruptor. With rockets ? That gives a real tactical depth. I was referring to the threat a Crow can represent with the conjunction of all these aspects: a Crow orbiting at 11 Km/sec doing 80 dps from 29 Km away and able to do it all day long Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Iteken Hotori	Posted - 2008.04.04 10:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Semkhet That gives a real tactical depth. I was referring to the threat a Crow can represent with the conjunction of all these aspects: a Crow orbiting at 11 Km/sec doing 80 dps from 29 Km away and able to do it all day long It's comments liek this that make me wonder wether some of you people even fly these ships in any professional capacity. What use is a Crow at 29km? Scram range is 24, unless you are faction pimped. (150m++ for a domi / RF Scram - no thanks - i'd rather by 10 more interceptors) Even with that magical 30km scram, the other inty will get into web range of you and kill you, or alter alignment and warp off. Now - I personally think the crow is 'ok' as it is, and the raptor needs a bit of a buff, but that's just me. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Caelum Dominus Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.04 11:28:00 - [60] Originally by: Semkhet With rockets ? That gives a real tactical depth. I was referring to the threat a Crow can represent with the conjunction of all these aspects: a Crow orbiting at 11 Km/sec doing 80 dps from 29 Km away and able to do it all day long A Malediction can use missiles too, you know, not to mention that the Crow cannot do 11km/s without rigs and snakes. Originally by: Iteken Hotori It's comments like this that make me wonder wether some of you people even fly these ships in any professional capacity. I second that.

Heartcarver	Posted - 2008.04.04 13:00:00 - [61] Originally by: Semkhet Originally by: Caelum Dominus Originally by: Semkhet The Crow is the only ceptor which: - Can use bonused weapons no matter the speed or flight profile. - Has the biggest default locking range. - Can use weapons with equal effectiveness no matter the distance up to the locking range limit. - Can switch damage type if needed. - Can permarun a Gistii-A MWD and Domi disruptor without additional cap mods. Uh, no. Malediction can also switch damage types, and it can also perma-run MWD and Disruptor. With rockets ? That gives a real tactical depth. I was referring to the threat a Crow can represent with the conjunction of all these aspects: a Crow orbiting at 11 Km/sec doing 80 dps from 29 Km away and able to do it all day long LoLz, ever fought a tackling Malediction? Mine goes 11k+ straightline, scrams you at roughly 35k and can perma run while firing standards all day long. It can do everything a crow can do, and do it better. Oh yea, if I wanted to kill your crow, then I would alter the fit to web / rockets and smoke it as well. Malediction > Crow now in almost all circumstances. Only inty that I dislike fighting in mine is a taranis "The point of war isn't to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his"
Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2008.04.04 14:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Heartcarver LoLz, ever fought a tackling Malediction? Mine goes 11k+ straightline, scrams you at roughly 35k and can perma run while firing standards all day long. It can do everything a crow can do, and do it better. Oh yea, if I wanted to kill your crow, then I would alter the fit to web / rockets and smoke it as well. Malediction > Crow now in almost all circumstances. Only inty that I dislike fighting in mine is a taranis To be clear, no, it cannot do everything a Crow can do. It does exactly half as much damage. The rest, it mostly does better.
Semkhet	Posted - 2008.04.04 15:31:00 - [63] Edited by: Semkhet on 04/04/2008 15:31:47 @Heartcarver Well, if I fly a ceptor, it's a fully pimped one along with a snake pod. Maybe you should wait the day you can fly one of these beasts before talking about its performance Malediction: 22 Km base lock range, 27.5 Km maxed, 29.7 Km in gang with Info warfare lvl5. No way to get to 35 Km without a mod = 1 slot wasted. A Crow in the same conditions without any mod reaches already 40 Km. And the only bonus you got on missiles is 5% EM /lvl. And you wanna smoke my Crow like that ? You're excited to do 11 Km/sec straight ? Unfortunately for you any Gistii-A based ceptor + LG snake + a few hardwires can do 22 Km/sec straight Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Lisento Slaven	Posted - 2008.04.04 15:59:00 - [64] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 12:36:31 Theres always going to be a use for a 30km point so I'm not sure I agree with the 'obsolete' bit. When was the last time you saw an ares or raptor? I sure dont see them often compared to crows, taranis etc. Imagine if crusader would have a 4/3/3 slot layout instead of 4/2/4. No one would use a malediction just for the few km extra scram range. I saw an Ares last night. In fact it was probably the reason my poor little Executioner didn't get away =( What does a theoretical 4/3/3 Crusader have to do with a Crow not being able to hurt other interceptors? The only thing I see in the OP, that is being complained about, is that speed has made it so that rockets do not do a whole lot to interceptors at full speed. I don't see a reason for that to change atm. --- Put in space whales! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Bronson Hughes	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:10:00 - [65] Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 04/04/2008 15:31:47 @Heartcarver Well, if I fly a ceptor, it's a fully pimped one along with a snake pod. Maybe you should wait the day you can fly one of these beasts before talking about its performance Malediction: 22 Km base lock range, 27.5 Km maxed, 29.7 Km in gang with Info warfare lvl5. No way to get to 35 Km without a mod = 1 slot wasted. A Crow in the same conditions without any mod reaches already 40 Km. And the only bonus you got on missiles is 5% EM /lvl. And you wanna smoke my Crow like that ? You're excited to do 11 Km/sec straight ? Unfortunately for you any Gistii-A based ceptor + LG snake + a few hardwires can do 22 Km/sec straight They don't even have that anymore, they lost it for the scram range bonus. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:28:00 - [66] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 12:36:31 Theres always going to be a use for a 30km point so I'm not sure I agree with the 'obsolete' bit. When was the last time you saw an ares or raptor? I sure dont see them often compared to crows, taranis etc. Imagine if crusader would have a 4/3/3 slot layout instead of 4/2/4. No one would use a malediction just for the few km extra scram range. I saw an Ares last night. In fact it was probably the reason my poor little Executioner didn't get away =( What does a theoretical 4/3/3 Crusader have to do with a Crow not being able to hurt other interceptors? The only thing I see in the OP, that is being complained about, is that speed has made it so that rockets do not do a whole lot to interceptors at full speed. I don't see a reason for that to change atm. I was explaining why people tend to fly crows instead of raptors and taranii instead of arii. Both taranis and crow do the tackling job basically just as well as their tackling version. And you're dead wrong if you think crows with webs cant kill other interceptors. Just because the wast majority of chicken-cookie-cutter-noob crow pilots never have tried doesnt mean the crow cant. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:04:00 - [67] Edited by: joshmorris on 04/04/2008 18:06:27 Edited by: joshmorris on 04/04/2008 18:05:52 Quote: Lyria Skydancer] Originally by: welsh wizard Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. Yeah taranis does 150 + dps but its range is under 5k with null then im sure using null negates its dps. Taranis is also very slow compared to crow. So stay out of 5k and keep him webbed (easy to do because your quicker) and you will win ... Uber idea solves all !!
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:18:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I was explaining why people tend to fly crows instead of raptors and taranii instead of arii. Both taranis and crow do the tackling job basically just as well as their tackling version. That's a nice generalization, but it's got no basis in fact. Nobody flies a Taranis "instead of" an Ares. An Ares is a way better tackler, since it is a lot faster, gets the 28km scram range, and also has much better lock range. An Ares and Taranis are as different as it gets while remaining in the same ship class.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.05 14:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I was explaining why people tend to fly crows instead of raptors and taranii instead of arii. Both taranis and crow do the tackling job basically just as well as their tackling version. That's a nice generalization, but it's got no basis in fact. Nobody flies a Taranis "instead of" an Ares. An Ares is a way better tackler, since it is a lot faster, gets the 28km scram range, and also has much better lock range. An Ares and Taranis are as different as it gets while remaining in the same ship class. A good pilot with high nav skills and overheat skills flies a taranis. A noob flies ares an that might suit him better until he gets his nav skill up. I think it is you that doesnt know anything about inties. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Red Wid0w	Posted - 2008.04.05 16:30:00 - [70] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I was explaining why people tend to fly crows instead of raptors and taranii instead of arii. Both taranis and crow do the tackling job basically just as well as their tackling version. That's a nice generalization, but it's got no basis in fact. Nobody flies a Taranis "instead of" an Ares. An Ares is a way better tackler, since it is a lot faster, gets the 28km scram range, and also has much better lock range. An Ares and Taranis are as different as it gets while remaining in the same ship class. A good pilot with high nav skills and overheat skills flies a taranis. A noob flies ares an that might suit him better until he gets his nav skill up. I think it is you that doesnt know anything about inties. Just stop posting Lyria, you are a clueless Troll. Taranis is NOT a better tackler than Ares.

Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.05 16:43:00 - [71] Originally by: Red Wid0w Just stop posting Lyria, you are a clueless Troll. Taranis is NOT a better tackler than Ares. I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth or I'll return the favor of putting something else in yours. A taranis is an better inty then ares overall, in the hands of a high skill player. End of story. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:08:00 - [72] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A taranis is an better inty then ares overall, in the hands of a high skill player. End of story. At killing other 'Ceptors, or killing things in general in fact, that is a true statement. Loads of DPS, decent speed, good tracking. With really good gunnery and navigation skills that thing can be a DPS monster. But for pure tackle duty, the Ares blows the Taranis away. Longer range point, longer lock range, far faster; there's simply no comparison. It's quite possibly the best pure tackler in the game. The down side is that it has a hard time killing anything at all. The Taranis is a combat 'Ceptor, the Ares is a fleet tackle 'Ceptor. A really good pilot flies them both and knows when to fly which. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:44:00 - [73] Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/04/2008 17:52:45 Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 04/04/2008 18:06:27 Edited by: joshmorris on 04/04/2008 18:05:52 Quote: Lyria Skydancer] Originally by: welsh wizard Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. Yeah taranis does 150 + dps but its range is under 5k with null then im sure using null negates its dps. Taranis is also very slow compared to crow. So stay out of 5k and keep him webbed (easy to do because your quicker) and you will win ... You can get 147dps out of small rails and 2 hobgoblins. edit: Just to state that this thread wasn't really intended to be a boost the crow thread. If it needs a nerf in some other area to allow the 30km point so be it. My point is that it is not a dogfighter and aslong as inties keep going as fast as they are now it never will be because light missile & rocket explosion velocity is borked. The Crow was dominant 18 months ago because 6.5 - 7km/s was the ceiling with a gisti a-type and rogues. As a result the light missile and rocket explosion velocity kept up with pretty much every target. Now the average speed of an interceptor is probably around 7-8km/s with a tech II fit! Its not hard to see why the Crow is now a failed dog fighter because its weapons system doesn't compete. This is why I proposed the role reversal. Like I said if this means some kind of nerf because the 30km crow is allegedly overpowered then so be it aslong as someone can come up with some reasonable ideas rather than blatently bias bs. Personally I think the Crow is rather limited as it is these days and so doesn't need a nerf to accomadate the 30km point but I'm undoubtedly bias. The Raptor is still crap though, would be nice to see it beefed up with 25% resists on shields and 'x' other bonuses to mirror the Amarr armour tanking variant. --------------- you all smell!
Caelum Dominus Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.06 10:45:00 - [74] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A good pilot with high nav skills and overheat skills flies a taranis. A noob flies ares an that might suit him better until he gets his nav skill up. I think it is you that doesnt know anything about inties. The Taranis is a rather bad tackler, whereas the Ares is one of the best in the game. Nobody in their right mind would use an Ares for solo PvP, or a Taranis for exclusively tackling.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:17:00 - [75] Originally by: Bronson Hughes Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A taranis is an better inty then ares overall, in the hands of a high skill player. End of story. At killing other 'Ceptors, or killing things in general in fact, that is a true statement. Loads of DPS, decent speed, good tracking. With really good gunnery and navigation skills that thing can be a DPS monster. But for pure tackle duty, the Ares blows the Taranis away. Longer range point, longer lock range, far faster; there's simply no comparison. It's quite possibly the best pure tackler in the game. The down side is that it has a hard time killing anything at all. The Taranis is a combat 'Ceptor, the Ares is a fleet tackle 'Ceptor. A really good pilot flies them both and knows when to fly which. A taranis can tackle successfully in 95% of tackling situtations in a gang as a tackler. The thing is that taranis also has the power of chasing off tacklers from your own gang. Ares is just slightly better at tackling then taranis but the taranis does everything else a thousand times better. That is my point and if you don't know this then you don't know anything about interceptors. There is simply not much reason to fly an ares over a taranis if you have high nav skills + overheating. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:17:00 - [76] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A good pilot with high nav skills and overheat skills flies a taranis. A noob flies ares an that might suit him better until he gets his nav skill up. I think it is you that doesnt know anything about inties. Well, there isn't much content in your post, so I'm not sure what to argue with. I'm an experienced interceptor pilot with perfect nav skills and Thermodynamics 4, and I have flown an Ares a few times, and a Taranis a lot of times. If you have anything to say, then say it.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A good pilot with high nav skills and overheat skills flies a taranis. A noob flies ares an that might suit him better until he gets his nav skill up. I think it is you that doesnt know anything about inties. Well, there isn't much content in your post, so I'm not sure what to argue with. I'm an experienced interceptor pilot with perfect nav skills and Thermodynamics 4, and I have flown an Ares a few times, and a Taranis a lot of times. If you have anything to say, then say it. You tell me, how many times have you failed tackling something just because you were in a taranis instead an ares? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:33:00 - [78] Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 06/04/2008 14:33:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You tell me, how many times have you failed tackling something just because you were in a taranis instead an ares? I don't fly a Taranis in situations where I'm expected to be tackling people for a gang, so I don't know. I fly a Taranis when I intend to kamikaze into people with blasters. Please note that I added a lot of content to my above post.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:53:00 - [79] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 06/04/2008 14:33:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You tell me, how many times have you failed tackling something just because you were in a taranis instead an ares? I don't fly a Taranis in situations where I'm expected to be tackling people for a gang, so I don't know. I fly a Taranis when I intend to kamikaze into people with blasters. Please note that I added a lot of content to my above post. I suggest you try it. You won't really notice a difference. Except that you can actually chase off and kill interceptors too as a bonus. Btw railranis is a perfectly viable fit too and no a blasteranis as a gang tackler is not very suicidal. Targets won't bother killing you in 95% of cases. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Caelum Dominus Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You tell me, how many times have you failed tackling something just because you were in a taranis instead an ares? Personally, so many times I've lost count. The Ares is far superior to the Taranis for tackling duty for all the reasons listed above, not to mention how it can stay outside Heavy Neutralizer range whereas the Taranis cannot.

Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2008.04.06 15:09:00 - [81] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I suggest you try it. You won't really notice a difference. Except that you can actually chase off and kill interceptors too as a bonus. Btw railranis is a perfectly viable fit too and no a blasteranis as a gang tackler is not very suicidal. Targets won't bother killing you in 95% of cases. A railranis is fine, but you aren't shooting the rails at a tackled target for an extended period of time, thanks to cap. (Unless you really want to go even slower in your tackling inty, which is getting kind of risky.) If I wanted a tackling interceptor that could fight other interceptors, I suppose I'd take a rocket Malediction, which has the 28km scram range, better speed, and better lock range than a Taranis.
General Paul	Posted - 2008.04.06 15:14:00 - [82] Caldari ceptors role reversal ? Why are y'all talking about gallente and amaar ceptors ?
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.06 15:52:00 - [83] Originally by: General Paul Caldari ceptors role reversal ? Why are y'all talking about gallente and amaar ceptors ? Because balancing two interceptors requires looking at the balance of the other six.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:00:00 - [84] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: General Paul Caldari ceptors role reversal ? Why are y'all talking about gallente and amaar ceptors ? Because balancing two interceptors requires looking at the balance of the other six. Not really, the Raptors crap and needs a boost and the Crow would just be going sideways if it had some other kind of nerf when it gains the 30km point. --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:28:00 - [85] Originally by: Caelum Dominus Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You tell me, how many times have you failed tackling something just because you were in a taranis instead an ares? Personally, so many times I've lost count. The Ares is far superior to the Taranis for tackling duty for all the reasons listed above, not to mention how it can stay outside Heavy Neutralizer range whereas the Taranis cannot. In theory your point might be true. But this proves nothing but you playing theory eve and are clueless about how things actually work in pvp when you sit in an inty. Taranis tackles just fine and is simply a better ship. Just like crows is simply better then a raptor. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:30:00 - [86] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: General Paul Caldari ceptors role reversal ? Why are y'all talking about gallente and amaar ceptors ? Because balancing two interceptors requires looking at the balance of the other six. Not really, the Raptors crap and needs a boost and the Crow would just be going sideways if it had some other kind of nerf when it gains the 30km point. You got some nerve to simply want to boost a crow without adjusting any of the other ships. The most popular inty. You must be dreaming. Seriously, the crow is actually good on tranq, in eft and in theory. Please stop your nonsense. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:31:00 - [87] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: General Paul Caldari ceptors role reversal ? Why are y'all talking about gallente and amaar ceptors ? Because balancing two interceptors requires looking at the balance of the other six. Try explaining that. People never see the big picture with balance. It's all "give me new FOTM because I suck ass". WoW is that way --->> -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:06:00 - [88] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Caelum Dominus Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You tell me, how many times have you failed tackling something just because you were in a taranis instead an ares? Personally, so many times I've lost count. The Ares is far superior to the Taranis for tackling duty for all the reasons listed above, not to mention how it can stay outside Heavy Neutralizer range whereas the Taranis cannot. In theory your point might be true. But this proves nothing but you playing theory eve and are clueless about how things actually work in pvp when you sit in an inty. Taranis tackles just fine and is simply a better ship. Just like crows is simply better then a raptor. Lyria, as usual, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. the only redeeming circumstances at the moment is that the OP idea is ridiculous too. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Caelum Dominus Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:50:00 - [89] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 06/04/2008 20:51:32 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer In theory your point might be true. But this proves nothing but you playing theory eve and are clueless about how things actually work in pvp when you sit in an inty. Taranis tackles just fine and is simply a better ship. Just like crows is simply better then a raptor. I have been flying exclusively Interceptors since I started playing the game. I fail to understand how you can disregard the fact that the Taranis cannot tackle outside reach of heavy neutralizers. Even disregarding this vital fact, a ship that isn't cap stable and struggles to break 5000m/s (assuming a reasonably effective blaster-oriented fit) does not tackle "just fine" by any standards but yours. Hopefully once you try these ships in their respective areas of expertise you will realize that the Ares is far better suited for tackling.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.06 21:09:00 - [90] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 06/04/2008 21:10:28 Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 06/04/2008 20:51:32 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer In theory your point might be true. But this proves nothing but you playing theory eve and are clueless about how things actually work in pvp when you sit in an inty. Taranis tackles just fine and is simply a better ship. Just like crows is simply better then a raptor. I have been flying exclusively Interceptors since I started playing the game. I fail to understand how you can disregard the fact that the Taranis cannot tackle outside reach of heavy neutralizers. Even disregarding this vital fact, a ship that isn't cap stable and struggles to break 5000m/s (assuming a reasonably effective blaster-oriented fit) does not tackle "just fine" by any standards but yours. Hopefully once you try these ships in their respective areas of expertise you will realize that the Ares is far better suited for tackling. Ok I'll explain: We are talking about acting as a small-medium-large gang tackler in a taranis. 1. Your gang waits for a solo ship to jump in through a gate. a) Ship is a frig, destroyer, cruiser -Anything ares can lock a taranis can lock. Both are fast enough to point and web. You won't die just because you web this target 99.99% of times. It's safe. b) A battleship jumps through -Ares tackles it beyond heavy neut range -Taranis tackles it close up A lone BS will rarely even put up a fight and not all those who even do have a heavy neut fitted. Your taranis will do the tackling job just as fine in 85% of these cases. 2. Your gang is fighting another similarly sized gang. medium - large fleet fights. -The ares is a bit faster and has a bit longer point then the taranis -Only a very very small portion of targets will not be tackled because: a) taranis was too slow b) target was a BS that neuted or killed the taranis c) taranis didnt get the point in time because of the shorter range So there taranis might miss like 5% of targets compared to an ares. BUT add to this that the taranis in this mess also can opt to go after other inties and frigs. A taranis will kill those within seconds because with overheated mwd and web a taranis can catch another inty without any problem in a fleet fight. Ares on the other hand sucks compared to the taranis in this aspect. Both a crow and a taranis utterly out perform their tackling versions if you can overload mwds and webs. They are only slightly worse at tackling but are extremely superior in other aspects. There is simply no reason, unless youre low skilled AND (note not or) want to dedicate yourself for tackling, to pick an ares or raptor instead of a taranis or crow. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II

Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.06 21:15:00 - [91] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -Why does minmatar have the 4 mid inty but the caldari dont? If anything raptor should have 4 mids and stiletto either 3-4 Yes! It is time to end the minmatar inty supremacy! Lets exchange interceptors with caldari! Losing the claw will be soooo painful. Minmatar Boost Brigade
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.06 21:18:00 - [92] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -Why does minmatar have the 4 mid inty but the caldari dont? If anything raptor should have 4 mids and stiletto either 3-4 Yes! It is time to end the minmatar inty supremacy! Lets exchange interceptors with caldari! Losing the claw will be soooo painful. I've already discussed this. Stiletto could still have 4 but the raptor should have atleast as many as the stiletto. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Caelum Dominus	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:27:00 - [93] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 07/04/2008 07:28:05 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer - There are more than two scenarios in the vast world of tackling. For example, it's quite realistic to assume that you will be required to tackle a lone battleship until support arrives. Also, it's common for an Interceptor to be required to travel long distances in order to scramble an enemy ship. These (and many more) are tasks that are better performed by the Ares.
Bad Borris	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:04:00 - [94] Welsh, the problem is not you're idea just that every heavy damage dealer in the caldari line-up is a missile boat. Accounting for roles and range: BS damage raven>rokh Command ship damage nighthawk>vulture battlecruiser drake>ferox hac cerberus>eagle cruisers caracal>moa interceptors crow>raptor Thats the problem and historically ccp has been very hesitant to give up the core distinguishing philosophies it placed on each race at the very beginning afaik.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 07/04/2008 07:28:05 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer - There are more than two scenarios in the vast world of tackling. For example, it's quite realistic to assume that you will be required to tackle a lone battleship until support arrives. Also, it's common for an Interceptor to be required to travel long distances in order to scramble an enemy ship. These (and many more) are tasks that are better performed by the Ares. The scenario of tackling a BS alone very very rarely happens. But yes ares would be better IN CASE the target happens to have a heavy neut. It will basically never happen that you 1. Be able to track a BS in a belt or similar (around gates you dont need to tackle for long) 2. BS has a heavy neut You'll do fine in a taranis 99% of ops. You'll also rarely miss a target just because you didnt warp at 13.5au/s but "only" warped at 9au/s. Most warp distances are so short for interceptors that the time diff is negligable. No, there are not that many situations that commonly occur where you really NEED to be in ares. Taranis does just fine. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:02:00 - [96] Originally by: Bad Borris Welsh, the problem is not you're idea just that every heavy damage dealer in the caldari line-up is a missile boat. Accounting for roles and range: BS damage raven>rokh Command ship damage nighthawk>vulture battlecruiser drake>ferox hac cerberus>eagle cruisers caracal>moa interceptors crow>raptor Thats the problem and historically ccp has been very hesitant to give up the core distinguishing philosophies it placed on each race at the very beginning afaik. I beg to differ on your conclusions on firepower, if you compare the missile boats to the hybrid boats using blasters, the blaster boats come out on top in some of your comparisons. Battleships: Blaster Rokh > Raven > Rail Rokh <No comment on Command ships - comparing Fleet vs Field Command in terms of dps is silly> Battlecruisers: HAM Drake > Blaster Ferox > HM Drake > Rail Ferox HAC: Blaster Eagle ~ HAM Cerb > HM Cerb > Rail Eagle Cruiser: Blaster Moa > HAM Caracal > HM Caracal > Rail Moa Inty: Blaster Raptor > Crow > Rail Raptor So it depends on your role where your max dps is. The Crow is fine, because although a blaster raptor does more damage it has to get into web range to accomplish that, whereas the Crow can deal its damage well outside of webrange. The problem lies for interceptors that have cap using weapons - they cannot effectively scram at their bonused range AND fire on the target withotu losing cap or slowing down immensely by fitting cap/grid mods instead of speed mods. It seems the Raptor is designed to be a long range tackler equipped with blasters and a rocket launcher. It would get its 30km scram, then use its weapons as a defense against warrior II's, and rely on its teammates to do any damage on the pointed target. A Raptor with Rails does not work. You lack the grid to fit 125's or 150's (75's with spike do not reach your 30km scram range). You lack the cap to fire your rails and MWD and point for more than a coupel minutes. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Caelum Dominus Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:14:00 - [97] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 07/04/2008 14:14:16 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The scenario of tackling a BS alone very very rarely happens. But yes ares would be better IN CASE the target happens to have a heavy neut. It will basically never happen that you 1. Be able to track a BS in a belt or similar (around gates you dont need to tackle for long) 2. BS has a heavy neut You'll do fine in a taranis 99% of ops. You'll also rarely miss a target just because you didnt warp at 13.5au/s but "only" warped at 9au/s. Most warp distances are so short for interceptors that the time diff is negligable. No, there are not that many situations that commonly occur where you really NEED to be in ares. Taranis does just fine. There are not that many situations that commonly occur where you needto be in a Taranis, either. "Just fine" may be sufficient by your standards, but certainly not for those of us who dedicate ourselves to tackling.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:18:00 - [98] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 07/04/2008 16:18:29 Originally by: Caelum Dominus There are not that many situations that commonly occur where you need to be in a Taranis, either. "Just fine" may be sufficient by your standards, but certainly not for those of us who dedicate ourselves to tackling. You'll encounter frigs/inties/destroyer type of ships in most encounters. You pose a SERIOUS threat to ships like that when you have a dps around 200. So no, Taranis actually is a better interceptor overall for the skilled player. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:32:00 - [99] Originally by: Omarvelous Battleships: Blaster Rokh > Raven > Rail Rokh Torp Raven > Blaster Rokh > Rail Rokh In theory anyway. How the actual dps plays out against different kinds of targets is a whole other matter naturally.
General Paul	Posted - 2008.04.07 18:37:00 - [100] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: General Paul Caldari ceptors role reversal ? Why are y'all talking about gallente and amaar ceptors ? Because balancing two interceptors requires looking at the balance of the other six. Not really, the Raptors crap and needs a boost and the Crow would just be going sideways if it had some other kind of nerf when it gains the 30km point. You got some nerve to simply want to boost a crow without adjusting any of the other ships. The most popular inty. You must be dreaming. Seriously, the crow is actually good on tranq, in eft and in theory. Please stop your nonsense. I dont think Crow needs a boost at all. I just rather have more caldari Talk. I cant claim to have much experience in pvp.. just 54 kills with a crow in mixed gangs in 0.0 so obviously a lot of you have much more experience than I. As a ship for intercepting it is very nice given its high range if you discount the need for a web. The raptor on the other hand I have not seen for a good long while in Venal.. = / IMO craptor needs some love. The crow is fine and dandy as it is. Thought id clear that up (=



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