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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.05 11:33:00 -
[1]
Currently I'm training towards HACs and Command Ships but for every day that passes I get more convinced that a BC will do a non nano'd HACs job better and that a Command Ship will just get owned by a good battleship, while doing less dps and tanking worse, leaving it as a big, expensive t2 target prodiving bonuses. Am I right or wrong in this assumption? I'm slighty worried 
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Jennifer Flate
theFragment
The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.04.05 11:39:00 -
[2]
I'm not quite sure on this matter, but im fairly certain that the jobs for HACs and CS's are more specialised than that of a BC and a BS. I think its true within all T2 variants...
For example, BC's can run missions, PvP, rat, and give bonuses. Doing a fairly good job at each, i believe that HAC's aren't that 'efficient' at doing missions but are good at specifically dealing good damage(for a cruiser) in PvP situations. Command ships can run missions etc. but tend to be good at 'Commanding' a fleet, bonuses from a claymore i think serve well for nano'd gangs, but CS's tend not to lend a lot of direct damage in a battle.
I haven't flown either a CS or a HAC, but thats what i think :P. I'm sure some people will assure you that they aren't crap.
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.05 11:42:00 -
[3]
I'm sure they're fairly good but if you compare the Gank Brutix to the Deimos the Brutix will out DPS and have more EHP while being cheaper and insurable with the only thing in the favour of the Deimos seems to be better handling and being faster.
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Helios Hyperion
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Posted - 2008.04.05 11:47:00 -
[4]
it's also got a huge sig radius and aligning slow is not a good thing for fast moving gangs. deimos targets faster. (my brutix has a sensor booster though) and deimos mooves faster. **** nano.. the gank factor is there though
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Erotic Irony
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Posted - 2008.04.05 11:52:00 -
[5]
If you're planning on using the gangmods and invested skillpoints in leadership then do it, otherwise you're better off training a recon or hac in 9/10 situations, especially in a hit and run environment.
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
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Euriti
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Posted - 2008.04.05 11:55:00 -
[6]
Aha okay. Well I'm planning on training up for BC and weaponry for that to full. Then HAC, then leadership skills and Command Ship.
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Deschenus Maximus
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Posted - 2008.04.05 13:47:00 -
[7]
Don't bother with command ships. They are just an expensive toy. I can fly the Abso, Sleipnir, Damnation and Claymore, and I regret every skillpoint I invested in them.
HACs, on the other hand, are definetely worth it, especially the Vaga.
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gramb0
The Organisation..
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Posted - 2008.04.05 14:15:00 -
[8]
Edited by: gramb0 on 05/04/2008 14:14:49
 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Don't bother with command ships. They are just an expensive toy. I can fly the Abso, Sleipnir, Damnation and Claymore, and I regret every skillpoint I invested in them.
HACs, on the other hand, are definetely worth it, especially the Vaga.
that can be argueable, when you see a t2 cruiser tank like a nighthawk you lemme know.
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Htrag
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2008.04.05 14:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Euriti
Currently I'm training towards HACs and Command Ships but for every day that passes I get more convinced that a BC will do a non nano'd HACs job better and that a Command Ship will just get owned by a good battleship, while doing less dps and tanking worse, leaving it as a big, expensive t2 target prodiving bonuses. Am I right or wrong in this assumption? I'm slighty worried
In general, you're right on. CS like astarte and absolution are sitting ducks to a good BS, and hacs are just asking to die to a myrm or even a drake.
However if you keep that in mind, there are times when using one makes sense, particularly if you have a bit of speed on your side.
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Juha85
Beasts of Burden
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Posted - 2008.04.05 14:48:00 -
[10]
Hacs are good for roaming gangs. Commandships are good for situations where you need tank and dps (for example breaking a gatecamp). My sleipnir can tank over 1000 dps and does around 800-900 itself. There are very few battleships that could take it on and survive.
BC's are good for providing dps in gangs too but they do die quite fast.
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DARTHxFREE
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.05 14:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Don't bother with command ships. They are just an expensive toy. I can fly the Abso, Sleipnir, Damnation and Claymore, and I regret every skillpoint I invested in them.
HACs, on the other hand, are definetely worth it, especially the Vaga.
My thoughs exactly, I want refund for 2,048,000 Skill Points.
Each Trimark MegaT I lose is only 105mill isk loss
For gang assist...Oneiros is more fun then Eos.
/join Cheeze & Whine Club
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.05 15:13:00 -
[12]
So Command Ships aren't worth the trouble for organized piracy and 0.0 compared to a BS?
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Romulus Maximus
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.05 15:38:00 -
[13]
Each to thier own tbh.
I used to fly Zealot a lot, but since Commands came out, i choose Abso 95% over the Zealot.
Generally, Commands can out tank, and often out damage Hacs. But there a lot more SP intensive, so less suited to newer players. They lack some agilty and speed, but id never choose a T1 variant over a command. And if u say there cheaper and almost as good..then u cant afford to be flying T2 ships.
There is no reason for a T1 BC to be better than a T2 BC other than lack of SP / bad setup. (im not talkign cross race here)
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.05 15:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Romulus Maximus
Each to thier own tbh.
I used to fly Zealot a lot, but since Commands came out, i choose Abso 95% over the Zealot.
Generally, Commands can out tank, and often out damage Hacs. But there a lot more SP intensive, so less suited to newer players. They lack some agilty and speed, but id never choose a T1 variant over a command. And if u say there cheaper and almost as good..then u cant afford to be flying T2 ships.
There is no reason for a T1 BC to be better than a T2 BC other than lack of SP / bad setup. (im not talkign cross race here)
I'm comparing BC to HAC and BS to CS. A CS would crush a BC.
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Free Mason
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Posted - 2008.04.05 15:52:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Free Mason on 05/04/2008 15:54:09
Its all about how well you specialize man. I currently am flying an absoluion as i have cross trained out of the astarte (not worth **** imo). The abso is a good all around ship if your into 0.0 pvp or piracy it does good damage and have a good tank. With that said any good battleship pilot who has speced in large lasers or their ship's weapon type will eat you for lunch... so out number them and lay the damage on. The abso will tank gate guns for days just an fyi... Oh and to compare a hac vs bc is silly... my harby will murder deimos all day, and will generally track well enough to scare off vagabond bc > hac (except for the****hat's with the nano'd out ****)
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DarkFollower
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Posted - 2008.04.05 15:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Euriti
I'm comparing BC to HAC and BS to CS. A CS would crush a BC.
Not necessary but true most of the times
i think it really comes down to what u are going to do , if u plan to stay in 0.0 some time and go with 0.0 gangs , then i suggest u train both for hac and for cs ,
If u plan on doing low sec pvp then forget about them and focus on bc / bs skills
also if u got lots of money go for the cs anyway 
Cap rechargers on PvP ships Suxxor monkey ballzorz!!
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Deschenus Maximus
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Posted - 2008.04.05 16:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Romulus Maximus
They lack some agilty and speed, but id never choose a T1 variant over a command. And if u say there cheaper and almost as good..then u cant afford to be flying T2 ships.
I guess that's a fair point. If I was rich as ****, I'd be in a CS most of the time, but I ain't, so cost effectiveness is a big issue for me, and CS are a big fail in that department.
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Bronson Hughes
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Posted - 2008.04.05 17:17:00 -
[18]
In general, 1v1, a Battlecruiser can kill a HAC or at least not be killed by a HAC most of the time. HACs are still Cruisers, they are not meant to be better all-around than Battlecrusiers. They are far tougher and generally do more damage than than Cruisers, far more nimble than Battlecruisers, and have some specialized role that they fulfill very well (i.e. Eagle is a Sniper, Vaga is the ultimate Nano-Ship, the Diemos is a DPS beast, etc.). Roughly the same relationship holds between Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Battleships.
In other words, you can't expect to always beat the next step up from you in terms of ship class in a 1v1 fight, but in a gang you'll be fulfilling a role far better than your T1 counterpart.
Are they worth it? If you use them properly, absolutely.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Arcord
Rytiri Lva
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Posted - 2008.04.05 19:35:00 -
[19]
T2 ships are so worth it, that i havent even dared to regret my SP investment in them...hacs- they are fast, have good deal of dps and generally work well in gangs...i fly deimos, most people say its a crap ship, well...there is prolly no ship thats more fun to fly, it shines in gangs where you get on top of your killmails almost everytime, it only has problems with its range but thats well known issue for blasterboats...ishtar, a lot ot stuff has been written about ishtar...no need to say more:)
now CS- eos is not what it used to be, but its the only fleet CS that can be used for actual gang boosting or general pvp(500+ DPS with a nice tank), astarte- i used to love it, but just learned amarr cs and hacs and gotta say that abso is simply better...damnation- i have a LOT of SP in leadership and this ships is the very best way to put those SP in good use...its got sick passive tank and one of the best warfare links, no damage though, but who needs that while in a fleet boosting ship...
on the other hand, you know what they say, in pvp fly ships you can afford to lose. if you cant afford to lose 200mil worth hac and 300mil worth CS, well go for BC or BS, not so much fun there but affordable
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.04.05 19:46:00 -
[20]
A CS will outtank most BS and in a lot of instances do more damage, or at least comparable damage, often with the benefit of being more versatile.
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kessah
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Posted - 2008.04.05 20:12:00 -
[21]
Command ships are completly not worth it. They are so vunerable to a heavy neut on a battleship and there tank (other than damnation) cant be plated effectively.
Its Money well spent on two tier 1 battleships imho.
Astartes are the worst imho, i love making the primary, there weak tank and meager dmg at med range makes them so vunerable to about 70% of pvp that if you managed to keep one longer than a week id be impressed. By the time there in range of there blasters a combination of jammers, webs and anything minmatar has effectively ruined them.
Absoul is weak agaisnt neuting as is the slepnir, the only commandship thats worth a damn is well... the damnation. in theory you can have up to 350k effective hp on them.
Overall there slow, expensive, dmg output is that of the average battleship pilot (700 dps~, astarte has more but its range gimped), expensive, cap weak, expensive.
Benefit well.... none really, they are exactly that, toys. Unless you use them for there intended purpose...
Gang warfare. - you just became your gang mates best friend.
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Corstaad
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Posted - 2008.04.05 20:35:00 -
[22]
I honestly don't want anything to do with BS. The one minny BS I think is worth anything is only like 20mil sp off for me . If your going daily pirate stuff and none fleet stuff there really isn't a use for a BS besides camping a system.
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kessah
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.05 20:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Corstaad
Edited by: Corstaad on 05/04/2008 20:36:23
I honestly don't want anything to do with BS. The one minny BS I think is worth anything is only like 20mil sp off for me. I'd much rather have a BC 5 then a tempest I can play around with in station.
BC 5 dont mean u need a CS - ud be a mean hurricane pilot.
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Gamesguy
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.05 21:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: J Valkor
A CS will outtank most BS and in a lot of instances do more damage, or at least comparable damage, often with the benefit of being more versatile.
Bull. If its outtanking a bs, its doing wet paper bag dps. If its doing high dps(read astarte), its got the tank of a wet paper bag.
Equal skills, a close range BS will pretty much beat a CS every single time.
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King Hopy
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:12:00 -
[25]
A sleipnir can do 750 dps while tanking 750dps. Thats pretty decent.. I have flown the sleipnir for a few months now, havent managed to lose one yet.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:25:00 -
[26]
You're mostly right.
A BC will pretty much outclass a HAC.
A BS will pretty much outclass a Command Ship.
That doesn't actually mean they're bad ships though, it just means that going toe to toe with something bigger and badder is onto a loser.
A HAC is more mobile than a BC, has faster locking, and is harder to hit.
A BC/CS is more mobile than a BS, has faster locking and is harder to hit.
Oh, and BCs/CS use cruiser sized weaponry, which means they have an easier time laying the smackdown on smaller targets than BS sized do.
Sometimes that's important, sometimes it's not. A BS doesn't roam so well, because of it's mobility. Finding the 'right' balance between mobility, firepower and tank is ... well, mostly a matter of personal taste - I know people who won't fly anything larger than a frigate, and I know people for which it's caps or nothing. (although they'll reluctantly shift down into a BS)
Personally, I haven't flown a battleship in 6 months.
A T2 ship is comparable with a ship a size larger, and pretty much outclasses the ship the same size. The larger one will probably win, but it'll be a challenge, rather than a 'warp out before they lock or die' situation.
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Crane needs more grid
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:25:00 -
[27]
Reducing the CSs to DPS and tank is a very narrow view.
No one EVER complained about me bringing my Claymore (3 links + mindlink) with me to the gang ops!
Sure, it got less dmg and tank than the other ships i could bring but the links make more than up for it.
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Galcray
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Posted - 2008.04.05 23:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Oh, and BCs/CS use cruiser sized weaponry, which means they have an easier time laying the smackdown on smaller targets than BS sized do.
Personally, I haven't flown a battleship in 6 months.
Thats exactly my take on it as well. IMO a command ship is pretty much the end all to ships smaller than it, barring nano of course.
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Deschenus Maximus
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.04.06 00:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
After all that work?
Yep. Hindsight's 20/20
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
I prefer CSs to HACs, but both are really good.
And yes, its the gang mod that really makes CSs special.
You can use gang mods on a BC. That's what I do now. Saves me from pulling my hair out when I lose one.
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xHalcyonx
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.06 00:38:00 -
[30]
Edited by: xHalcyonx on 06/04/2008 00:38:32
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
After all that work?
Yep. Hindsight's 20/20
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
I prefer CSs to HACs, but both are really good.
And yes, its the gang mod that really makes CSs special.
You can use gang mods on a BC. That's what I do now. Saves me from pulling my hair out when I lose one.
I like all the HACs I can fly, but I really only enjoy flying my Nighthawk.
I can pilot Amarr, Caldari, and Minmatar HACs, Recons, and Field CS's.
Working on getting T2 250mm Railguns and then on to the Vulture.
Caldari have some nice railboats. 
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ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn
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