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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Cor Aidan
KNIGHT'S OF THE ROUND ROOM
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Posted - 2008.04.09 17:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tarminic
I thought you could only query data like that once every hour? Or am I thinking of something else...
Hrm. I know it says that on the EvE website with character info; didn't realize it was for the full API. If it is, though, then there is already a mechanism in place for limiting access to the database.
Still doesn't explain why they couldn't integrate it into the client - just have something like "You have already requested a search within this hour, please wait and try again later," when the API gives its error message.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.09 17:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Cor Aidan
Originally by: Tarminic
I thought you could only query data like that once every hour? Or am I thinking of something else...
Hrm. I know it says that on the EvE website with character info; didn't realize it was for the full API. If it is, though, then there is already a mechanism in place for limiting access to the database.
Still doesn't explain why they couldn't integrate it into the client - just have something like "You have already requested a search within this hour, please wait and try again later," when the API gives its error message.
I think that all the asset data is searched in advance and shown as you open or close tabs - I.E. you may only be looking under the "region" tab but the data for all your items is already sent to the client.
In order to change it they would have to re-work how the data is sent to the client or cache your entire assets for one hour. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.09 17:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Andrue One easy answer is that containers tend to have a lot of items in them so by ignoring contents you can probably vastly reduce the amount of data returned by the query. It depends how many players organise their stuff into containers to keep hangar floors tidy.
In my case a query for 'objects outside containers' would probably return a tenth the amount of data that 'all objects owned' would.
Can you do an asset search for all assets?
Seems a much more benign problem when viewed only as looking for a single type of item then the only data returned to me are instances of that item's occurrence.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Kappas.
Galaxy Punks Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.09 18:22:00 -
[34]
You can see what's in a can if you try and contract it, same with ships. Not ideal, but hey. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.04.09 18:45:00 -
[35]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Sorry, not going to happen in the game client for performance reasons. Instead try some of the community created tools that have been developed using the EVE API.
At worst, can't you do a "search in cans" option that look only in cans, for performance reasons?
Having the option to look to ANY asset would be damn usefull for CEOs and directors, and I don't think its asking for the moon, either... ------------------------------------------
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AltBier
Blue. Blue Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.04 13:33:00 -
[36]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Sorry, not going to happen in the game client for performance reasons. Instead try some of the community created tools that have been developed using the EVE API.
Looking into a can remotely is more performance intensive than opening a can in the same station? More performance intensive than checking all the buy/sell orders in a region?
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:20:00 -
[37]
Its worth changing the mechanics of the game to make this work, not being able to search inside containers is one of the worst limitations that exists in EVE today. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Sorry, not going to happen in the game client for performance reasons. Instead try some of the community created tools that have been developed using the EVE API.
Is that some sort of joke? What next? A warning about keyloggers?
--- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
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Trojanman190
Altruism. Malice.
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Originally by: CCP Explorer Sorry, not going to happen in the game client for performance reasons. Instead try some of the community created tools that have been developed using the EVE API.
Is that some sort of joke? What next? A warning about keyloggers?
We can't properly search in cans because of performance issues? You know you could just give us the ability to create folders in our hangers, and then we won't need freaking cans. You could also setup the search querying to be done hourly like the api. I really don't see a reason performance issues would have an effect if the api is just doing a retireval of hte same information, just a smaller number of times.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:44:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 04/06/2008 14:53:37
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 08/04/2008 22:36:43
Originally by: CCP Explorer Sorry, not going to happen in the game client for performance reasons. Instead try some of the community created tools that have been developed using the EVE API.
I certainly do not understand the ins-and-outs of the EVE database but on the face of it why would this be a performance issue? If I had all my stuff just on a hangar floor it'd show fine. The database has a list of all my stuff...whether it is in cans or not...and knows where that stuff is. Seems a listing of the items is simple enough and there is no need to list the items as being in a can. Just give a laundry list of all Item-X owned by me and what station it is at.
If you say it cannot be done for performance issues I have to accept that but it still does not make sense to me.
I suppose you can tag that mostly to inventors today. I have several cans with 999 BPC in my invention hangar (and 3 hangar in the same system to differentiate invention, building and ship hangars). Add to that several hangars with containers for some hundred different mods, illegals, NPC stuff, POS fuel, partially used mining crystals and so on.
I think I could easily multiply x5 or more my already massive hangar load if a search function would browse the containers too.
I am a packrat, but I suppose I am not the only one.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:49:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Krxon Blade I think that "No, because of extra database stress" shouldn't be excuse for not implementing this useful options into game:
- ability to remotely see whats in our cans - same goes to our ship fittings
Removing (or not adding) game features in order to ease database looks like attempt to support as many players as possible, at any cost.
There is also a lot of other things which could add to game visual diversity, such as:
- visible damage on ships - custom ship colors - displaying corp logo on our ships - visual representation of installed modules, not just guns - ability to stick three wings and paint my ceptor in bright red - etc
But no. Easing database load is too important and we will continue to fly dull identical shiny ships.
Ok, you pay for 45 dollars for account and get all the nice bits added, without regard to reducing performance for the server as the people playing will be 1/3.
Mmmh, maybe EVE will lose more than 2/3 of the players, make that 90 dollars month.
You start to see why the will keep the database load low and spread the cost of development/maintenance between a larger number of players?
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:57:00 -
[42]
Originally by: AltBier
Originally by: CCP Explorer Sorry, not going to happen in the game client for performance reasons. Instead try some of the community created tools that have been developed using the EVE API.
Looking into a can remotely is more performance intensive than opening a can in the same station? More performance intensive than checking all the buy/sell orders in a region?
Open a can with 999 BPC then we can speak if it is not performance intensive , or even better one of the old can full of bookmarks (recall those?).
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.04 15:03:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Open a can with 999 BPC then we can speak if it is not performance intensive , or even better one of the old can full of bookmarks (recall those?).
Good heavens.
I have a handfull of bookmarks that I keep in a corp hanger for easy transfer to alts, just bookmarks to 4 or 5 stations that I use most often.
Opening that hanger takes over a minute just because there is something funky about having bookmarks in it. Opening a container that is filled with bookmarks would probably kill the client.
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2008.06.04 15:16:00 -
[44]
Dont be so bloody untidy hehe Keep certain things in certain stations and make notes of them. I have max 10-15 stations show up in assets - Why - Because I am fussy and tidy .)
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PhamNuwen
Abyss Rangers
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Posted - 2008.06.04 15:21:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Sorry, not going to happen in the game client for performance reasons. Instead try some of the community created tools that have been developed using the EVE API.
I assume everybody understands the problem of the database load.
But maybe you could prepare a inventory-service? A special "agent" provides a service to collect all information about my items all over the univers. Maybe for some ISK.
After 1..7 days he is sending me all the data and I'm able to export it. With informations about the content of all containers and it's location. With informations about BPO and BPCs.
---
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Torndeco
IP II IMI IP my pod
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:10:00 -
[46]
Blah u all complain when theres already a community programs available for free. Or u could code one yourself easy enough to the job if u are paranoid.
If they add the feature in client it would get more used by everyone, including new players. People would get lazy and go ohh damn where i left that one item, and query the whole lot.
Ingame Feature Database will prob need to be optimzed for it. Would prob need to be changed to every 5 mins for full list. Thus Assets Window needs to be revamped to display ships fittings or cans / location. Deadspace / POS etc...
LAG LAG LAG Jita bad enough to warrent a deciated server just for it.
(IF) If its full list is not updated to every 5 mins. To avoid extremely excess lag. Extra client cpu spent and checking item id values to see whats been moved around. And update the Full Assets where needed.
Versus Current System U can use the api to query where everything is And i mean everything i.e in cans, ships holds, fitted to ships (regardless if at pos or in space or in a station.
This is updated every 24 hours, which prob means its done at dt and maybe offloaded to a different server than the database server.
Just requires people to search forums, download a program, install it. And they run the program when needed... No problems with the api list only been updated every 24 hours
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:25:00 -
[47]
Why was this necroed?
You have your answer. It's not happening due to performance issues. I'm sure some people find it weird. Especially those who do not know EVEs database, server and the communications between them. No biggie as it's quite common that we have misconceptions about things we know nothing about. For those who are DB savvy I'll explain this in these words: "What this is suggesting (or what precedence the simplest form would set) is looking for everything everywhere in the most active table in the DB. You might as well ask for a client side Vote for DB-Failover button."
You also have your solution.
Necroing is bad, mkay.
~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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soldieroffortune 258
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:42:00 -
[48]
yes, thats what i do myself, i like to keep everything neat, and i put it all in large cargo containers, and name them by what their contents have, such as: Weaponry 1, Ammo Container 1, Armor Equipment 1, etc. just do that and you should be fine, and you can do that to help limit your search, and with a little effort you can remember where you left that darned thing
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master chiefy
Monkey Universe Corporation Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: master chiefy on 04/06/2008 16:51:24
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why was this necroed?
You have your answer. It's not happening due to performance issues. I'm sure some people find it weird. Especially those who do not know EVEs database, server and the communications between them. No biggie as it's quite common that we have misconceptions about things we know nothing about. For those who are DB savvy I'll explain this in these words: "What this is suggesting (or what precedence the simplest form would set) is looking for everything everywhere in the most active table in the DB. You might as well ask for a client side Vote for DB-Failover button."
You also have your solution.
Necroing is bad, mkay.
Well, I don't care if this makes it in or not although it would be good.
The reason I'm replying is the attitude that some of you Dev guys take. Pull your heads in and don't give people the "you have your answer" type responses. If you're going to post, post with some respect for customers - regardless of how many times you or any of your "elite" friends have to repeat yourselves. Lock it if you have to. But don't get smart about it.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:59:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why was this necroed?
You have your answer. It's not happening due to performance issues. I'm sure some people find it weird. Especially those who do not know EVEs database, server and the communications between them. No biggie as it's quite common that we have misconceptions about things we know nothing about. For those who are DB savvy I'll explain this in these words: "What this is suggesting (or what precedence the simplest form would set) is looking for everything everywhere in the most active table in the DB. You might as well ask for a client side Vote for DB-Failover button."
You also have your solution.
Necroing is bad, mkay.
Hey Prism X, do you guys vertically partition that table (I assume it to character_items or something.. got a link to the Eve DB Schema?) ?
-Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:07:00 -
[51]
Originally by: master chiefy Well, I don't care if this makes it in or not although it would be good.
The reason I'm replying is the attitude that some of you Dev guys take. Pull your heads in and don't give people the "you have your answer" type responses. If you're going to post, post with some respect for customers - regardless of how many times you or any of your "elite" friends have to repeat yourselves. Lock it if you have to. But don't get smart about it.
Honestly, Prism is one of the best devs to get to respond to your thread... at least he tells you what is and isn't possible (and usually, why).
Honestly, you should have more respect for the devs - when was the last time you dealt with a few hundred thousand angry people clamoring about how laggy your game is (since you put in some cool new feature that they requested)?
-Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Haks'he Lirky
Dominion Imperium
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:12:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 04/06/2008 17:15:34
Originally by: master chiefy
Well, I don't care if this makes it in or not although it would be good.
The reason I'm replying is the attitude that some of you Dev guys take. Pull your heads in and don't give people the "you have your answer" type responses. If you're going to post, post with some respect for customers - regardless of how many times you or any of your "elite" friends have to repeat yourselves. Lock it if you have to. But don't get smart about it.
They are developers, not customer support, not marketing, not community managers, they are developers.
Either you ask for developers to stop posting or you accept the fact that developers are developers.
Edit: missed one developers.
developers!
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:14:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
They are developers, not customer support, not marketing, not community managers, they are developers.
Either you ask for developers to stop posting or you accept the fact that developers are developers.
You're my project manager, aren't you?
-Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Bleeshtar
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:16:00 -
[54]
Eve asset manager
http://wiki.heavyduck.com/EveAssetManager
I dont know if it looks in your cans or not to be honest.
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Zakgram
Atomic Heroes Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why was this necroed? You have your answer. It's not happening due to performance issues. I'm sure some people find it weird. Especially those who do not know EVEs database, server and the communications between them.
Your answer was / is pants.
A 3rd party tool was written to call the api which queries your most active table, does it not? So why can't the client do this exactly the same way? Or does the api not query your table but queries some other magical copy of the table and thus make the client do that? Have the client cache it's last query just like the API does. Have the asset button show a "your queries are cached for 15 minutes". Whatever... just don't have us forced to use / write tools that do exactly what the client could do and then say that it can't be done.
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Neth'Rae
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:14:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Neth''Rae on 04/06/2008 19:15:45 Well then, please let us arrange our items into groups like, drones, ammo and charges, etc, and having something like folders instead of just a long list...
Originally by: CCP Prism X ...looking for everything everywhere in the most active table in the DB. You might as well ask for a client side Vote for DB-Failover button."
Are you saying that the Database would fail if people stopped putting their stuff in Cans?
Request signatures at EVE-GFX |
Oku Kee'lus
Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:19:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Oku Kee''lus on 04/06/2008 19:19:10
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why was this necroed?
You have your answer. It's not happening due to performance issues. I'm sure some people find it weird. Especially those who do not know EVEs database, server and the communications between them. No biggie as it's quite common that we have misconceptions about things we know nothing about. For those who are DB savvy I'll explain this in these words: "What this is suggesting (or what precedence the simplest form would set) is looking for everything everywhere in the most active table in the DB. You might as well ask for a client side Vote for DB-Failover button."
You also have your solution.
Necroing is bad, mkay.
If you allow the API to pull the query once every 24 hours. Why not do that in-game, and show the result ingame, instead of having people rely on out of game tools?
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:20:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why was this necroed? You have your answer. It's not happening due to performance issues. I'm sure some people find it weird. Especially those who do not know EVEs database, server and the communications between them.
Your answer was / is pants.
A 3rd party tool was written to call the api which queries your most active table, does it not? So why can't the client do this exactly the same way? Or does the api not query your table but queries some other magical copy of the table and thus make the client do that? Have the client cache it's last query just like the API does. Have the asset button show a "your queries are cached for 15 minutes". Whatever... just don't have us forced to use / write tools that do exactly what the client could do and then say that it can't be done.
You assume that when you query via the API, its doing a query on the live DB. This is obviously not the case. The information you can retrieve via the API is updated by CCP in a controlled manner at preset intervals...for things like assets I wouldnt be surprised if it was updated at DT, meaning it lags a day behind what you really have.
the limitation is basically to stop a**hat players from making 1k cans with 1k stacks of 1 unit of trit, then searching their assets when the pvp engagement they are in goes south. Another case of the few ruining it for the many.
The client using the API to get this info would be nice tho, even if it would be out of date as much as the third party tools. Then, it only lags you out, not the server node.
Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
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Zakgram
Atomic Heroes Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.04 20:34:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
You assume that when you query via the API, its doing a query on the live DB. This is obviously not the case. The information you can retrieve via the API is updated by CCP in a controlled manner at preset intervals...for things like assets I wouldnt be surprised if it was updated at DT, meaning it lags a day behind what you really have.
Without seeing the stuff that CCP don't publish - for example how it works - it's difficult to know what it's doing. I assume the API is a direct DB query since it would be inefficient for the API server to have data pushed to it every few minutes on the off chance that somebody bothers to run the API query. It could also be a replicated database - so the API server gets data from a replicate of the live database, or whatever. I don't really care tbh - the API works, the in-game version doesn't work as well as it could. The in-game could just do an API call and get it's data from there but doesn't. Random people could send isk into my account. But they don't
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.06.05 01:43:00 -
[60]
But the API interface doesn't screw the database.
Still, at 50% price increase, they can barely afford a database, let alone a computer to run it on.
--- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
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