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Cassandra Beckinsale	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:12:00 - [1] That a petition, not a whining or anything else. I just want that no one can buy ISK or farm ISK for real money, nor any of players, nor CCP. I want to make TQ a TRUE world, where real money cannot interact. If i buy 1000 Euros of ISK from a farmer website, I actually have done this: 1. Earned ISK by doing absolutely nothing in EvE. 2. I get ISK for real money. 3. I can sustain my alliance / corp / character with real money. If I use GTC system, approved by CCP, i can do exactly the same 3 points. It is not important if the ISK i get from GTC come from real eve players (players that have spent hours playing eve), the final fact is that i can do the third point thing mianly, and this cannot be permitted! An alliance / corp 7 player, have to play eve to sustain themself, not to PAY real money for it! I think the problem here is that: farmer are not ok cause real money do not go in CCP wallet, GTC is ok cause the real money go in CCP wallet. There is nothing about ethic or moral things, only money. Good work CCP. MAKE TQ REAL MONEY SAFE!!! /Signed
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:15:00 - [2] Not signed. You completely ignore the significant differences between GTC trades and RMT. I will not regurgitate them as there are several threads where it is explained in depth. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:16:00 - [3] If CCP could remove the presence of farmers from EVE, I would sign this. Doing so while farmers are still present in EVE would be an economic disaster, so no. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:21:00 - [4] Agreed Except why you think CCP dislikes farmers.
Tammarr	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:23:00 - [5] Paying real money to sustain your character is in no way wrong, given that if you have time you have isk, if you dont have time, well you probably work but might want to play the game to its fullest as the time=money=isk thing goes. It do help with combating alliances made of elitist 15yo brats that can play all day to.
Havok Dryke Golden Gavel Enterprises The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:24:00 - [6] Okay, let's just press this big red button which will permaban every ISK farmer/macro, and prevent them from making new accounts! On a serious note, how would CCP attempt that? Fighting/banning ISK farmers/macros is like playing whack-a-mole. No matter how many you hit, 2 more pop up in a different place. -------------------------------------- EVE is a cold, harsh world, filled with people that would kill you without a second thought. The forums are even worse.
Tzar'rim Minmatar Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:24:00 - [7] I don't care if someone wants to pay RL cash to fuel his ingame fun. Not signed
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:35:00 - [8] Quote: I actually have done this: oh really, have you been banned yet? And lets see... you basicly want farmers to be the only way for players to buy isk, tell me why this is a good thing. taking out the ngame card trade will only triple the rate at which farmers sell isk and thus make so many problems it's not even funny.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:36:00 - [9] Did you even read/understand what the Dev Blog was saying? Someone post the Picard facepalm please.
Vikarion Caldari Onyx Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:40:00 - [10] Not signed. I buy and sell GTCs every now and then. Do you know why? Because I often have to work overtime at my job, and I have a lot of other responsibilities. I have no problem with earning ISK in game, only in finding time to play. I don't want to be mining or missioning all the time. Sometimes, I'd like to be exploring or fighting. GTCs let me do that, and also help someone else out. I like that. --------
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:43:00 - [11] It is a whine and moan, you are just venting here, without actually proposing anything. Well, other than an absolute impossibility. How are you going to "MAKE TQ REAL MONEY SAFE," exactly? As others have pointed out: 1) So long as there are RMT interests out there, ISK will be pahrmed and sold. 2) Better that GTC/ETC system is in place, where the GTC/ETC is applied directly to a players' accounts, thus furthering the game, vs. "Anonymous-Sweat-Shop-Owner-In-a-Country-that-shall-remain-unnamed." When GTC/ETC is sold, it is used to help the player who has the time, and yet short on ISK, or it helps a rich EVE Player to continue enjoying his game for free, while CCP is not loosing the revenue. No new ISK is created, it is just transfered from one character to another. A simple transaction. On the other hand, when one buys ISK from the RMT entity, one directly contributes to the frivolous creation of the ISK, thus inflation, because, if you think logically, RMT people do not really destroy any ISK through normal ISK sinks like PVP, POS, etc. they just created it, 23/7 w/o placing anything back into the game. So, again, what you are proposing is a fallacy, you are not presenting any logical proposals that would justify, or validate your arguments for "MAK[ing] TQ REAL MONEY SAFE."
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:55:00 - [12] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 09/04/2008 23:59:39 someone needs to go though re-education... repeat after me: -Money to CCP = Good, money spend on Dev's beer tab, hamster feed and other stuff that keeps eve going. -Money to American owners of Sweatshops in a certain unnamed country = bad, since they dont contribute to Eve's development..... that money goes to people who encourages economic slavery and arent too reserved about committing fraud = double bad... fraud which leads to: farmers costing CCP money....= triple bad.. heres an example of what the farmers does...(with sony...) http://www.playnoevil.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/1847-Why-Game-Companies-REALLY-care-about-Gold-Farming-Payment-Fraud-and-Chargebacks.html so repeat after me, Money though GTC to CCP = Good!!!! Money for isk to American owners of farmers/sweatshops (IGN for one) = Triple BAD... now repeat 10 times.... edit: also to note: alot of the farmers "companies" WILL molest your credit card...
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:17:00 - [13] You missed a very important part of making TQ proof against real money: dis-allow multi-accounts. The value of 30 days of time on a second account is at minimum 200m isk, if all you do is train skills. If you mine/rat/mission, you can easily double that. 30 day time codes are selling for 150m isk. Granted the impact is not immediate, but it's absolutely meaningful, and directly related to your ability to open your wallet for EVE. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Lord Rue Gallente GenX Societies Inc. Rejuvenate	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:28:00 - [14] Not signed, please re-connect brain to fingers before you post again, kthx. Devil bunnies! I snort the nose! Lucifer! Banana!
Phyrr Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:39:00 - [15] Edited by: Phyrr on 10/04/2008 00:39:32 Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale That a petition, not a whining or anything else. I just want that no one can buy ISK or farm ISK for real money, nor any of players, nor CCP. I want to make TQ a TRUE world, where real money cannot interact. If i buy 1000 Euros of ISK from a farmer website, I actually have done this: 1. Earned ISK by doing absolutely nothing in EvE. 2. I get ISK for real money. 3. I can sustain my alliance / corp / character with real money. If I use GTC system, approved by CCP, i can do exactly the same 3 points. It is not important if the ISK i get from GTC come from real eve players (players that have spent hours playing eve), the final fact is that i can do the third point thing mianly, and this cannot be permitted! An alliance / corp 7 player, have to play eve to sustain themself, not to PAY real money for it! I think the problem here is that: farmer are not ok cause real money do not go in CCP wallet, GTC is ok cause the real money go in CCP wallet. There is nothing about ethic or moral things, only money. Good work CCP. MAKE TQ REAL MONEY SAFE!!! /Signed **** off Join us in the Exploration channel. The odds on me being here are rather slim evolutionary speaking, yet in the infinite bounds of probability my being here is a certainty.
Basileus	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:42:00 - [16] Yeah, and what about the poor people from [enter random 3rd World country here]? How are they supposed to make a living [sic]?
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Mika Meroko Edited by: Mika Meroko on 09/04/2008 23:59:39 someone needs to go though re-education... repeat after me: -Money to CCP = Good, money spend on Dev's beer tab, hamster feed and other stuff that keeps eve going. -Money to American owners of Sweatshops in a certain unnamed country = bad, since they dont contribute to Eve's development..... that money goes to people who encourages economic slavery and arent too reserved about committing fraud = double bad... fraud which leads to: farmers costing CCP money....= triple bad.. heres an example of what the farmers does...(with sony...) http://www.playnoevil.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/1847-Why-Game-Companies-REALLY-care-about-Gold-Farming-Payment-Fraud-and-Chargebacks.html so repeat after me, Money though GTC to CCP = Good!!!! Money for isk to American owners of farmers/sweatshops (IGN for one) = Triple BAD... now repeat 10 times.... edit: also to note: alot of the farmers "companies" WILL molest your credit card... GTCs are people paying for accounts Isk farmers are people paying for accounts
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Basileus Yeah, and what about the poor people from [enter random 3rd World country here]? How are they supposed to make a living [sic]? World of warcraft. duh think about it.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Mika Meroko Edited by: Mika Meroko on 09/04/2008 23:59:39 someone needs to go though re-education... repeat after me: -Money to CCP = Good, money spend on Dev's beer tab, hamster feed and other stuff that keeps eve going. -Money to American owners of Sweatshops in a certain unnamed country = bad, since they dont contribute to Eve's development..... that money goes to people who encourages economic slavery and arent too reserved about committing fraud = double bad... fraud which leads to: farmers costing CCP money....= triple bad.. heres an example of what the farmers does...(with sony...) http://www.playnoevil.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/1847-Why-Game-Companies-REALLY-care-about-Gold-Farming-Payment-Fraud-and-Chargebacks.html so repeat after me, Money though GTC to CCP = Good!!!! Money for isk to American owners of farmers/sweatshops (IGN for one) = Triple BAD... now repeat 10 times.... edit: also to note: alot of the farmers "companies" WILL molest your credit card... GTCs are people paying for accounts Isk farmers are people paying for accounts but the more people that can play due to trading isk for game time means CCP get more players, thus for every isk seller that can't pay CCP because it's not profitable to do so, they instead get 2 more players than think paying other players isk for game time is the greastest idea ever.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Basileus Yeah, and what about the poor people from [enter random 3rd World country here]? How are they supposed to make a living [sic]? Nike
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:08:00 - [21] Well, I'd rather CCP get the money then someone hiring a bunch of sweatshop workers. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tim Bit	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:12:00 - [22] What's the difference between buying isk with money, and running 5 accounts to use 4 of them to mine for you? Hint: There's no difference. If people can use multiple accounts, they can buy isk.
ceyriot Crimson Rebellion Cold Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Did you even read/understand what the Dev Blog was saying? Someone post the Picard facepalm please. here. Faction Store
Keflin Geard The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:55:00 - [24] Perma Bans for people buying isk outside of the GTC system. No whines, no ifs no buts. Ban them.
Overwhelmed Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.10 02:07:00 - [25] There really are no true words to express the new level of ******ation invading the forums. Yet, again, someone makes a sensational OP. Then 218462194821642164921864892164921846219846219421942184921648291486219846218942982164982164892164921846219486218942164982164298146218946218946218946218946218946218946219 OPs spin off that should be in the ORIGINAL GODDAMN THREAD. You people can't even find your own problems, much less solve them. ---------------------------------------------------------- Posting And You Disclaimer: This is a meta-game alt for meta-game discussions.
Dynast Helios Incorporated Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:15:00 - [26] Not Signed. GTCs keep real players in game who would otherwise not want to spend RL money on a videogame. GTC sales keep real players in game who don't have the RL time to devote to grinding in a videogame to support the rest of what they want to do. Everyone wins except the chinese farmers who are forced to compete with CCP backed and guaranteed GTC sales. Which is good too because it decreases the profitability of farming in EVE for the chinese farmers and hence decreases their presence. The only problem is if you think that it's just awful that someone can buy a ship or module or whatever, with ISK they bought with RL money, and not have to farm like you did. And if you think your 'achievements' in a video game should be sacrosanct from being copied with IRL influence, I say you're smoking *****. They're such pitiful achievements compared to anything in IRL that even calling them 'achievements' trivializes the word.
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:20:00 - [27] How about a petition for automatic temp bans for breaking the forums? "Current Earth-Destruction Status"
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Karanth How about a petition for automatic temp bans for breaking the forums? This ...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale I just want that no one can buy ISK or farm ISK for real money, nor any of players, nor CCP. You demand the impossible. Not that I don't agree with the general sentiment, but it is literally impossible. So... err... not signed. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
AmmoniaisNH3	Posted - 2008.04.10 04:51:00 - [30] GTC's for iskies is the only way i get to play eve :( dunt take it away :(
Danui Gallente United Titans Of Progress	Posted - 2008.04.10 05:13:00 - [31] I don't think this is a good idea... There will be always people who want to "buy" isk so what CCP is doing here, is creating a legit way for those people. If everyone is using this way, the farmers will loose there customers and will stop farming. I believe this is a good way. If however, ccp stops this way of buying ISK, the farmers would have a larger clientbase so there will be more farmers... I don't know the rate of the isk sellers but if it's way below the isk you can earn from the gtc than offcourse the farmers still win. Eve-online guide collection Web based version
Spineker Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.10 06:03:00 - [32] I think GTC would actually cut down on the "ebay" style of selling ISK. Because the transactions are not for real world profit at all. The money goes to the game and that is good and most of the GTC buyers aren't farming to sell on ebay or whatever they are doing it because some guys who work alot need some extra isk but don't have the time or they are down on their luck in game. So they don't have to ebay buy the isk and some other guys don't have a credit card or don't want to pay monthly fee but 180 isk a month is not hard to make so they play to pay instead of pay to play. Its good all around and sound practice. It comes down to this: 1. Person with extra real world money don't have to break the rules buying isk from farmer they can buy a card and trade it. 2. Person who doesn't have the means or desire to spend real money can go ratting and pay for their game time. 3. Game company cuts down on the isk sellers and at the same time offers a ingenious way for some of their players to actually play and earn the money to keep playing. I can't see anything wrong with it at all.
Biffidus Rex Southern Cross Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.10 06:16:00 - [33] GTC = good RMT = bad OP = wrong this = spam Did I miss anything?
Spineker Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.10 06:18:00 - [34] The cookie?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.10 06:38:00 - [35] Not signed. RMT and GTC are different where GTC is lesser of two evils.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.10 07:12:00 - [36] Originally by: Carniflex Not signed. RMT and GTC are different where GTC is lesser of two evils. Evil is bad last time I checked and should be "vanquished" altogether
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.10 07:18:00 - [37] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Carniflex Not signed. RMT and GTC are different where GTC is lesser of two evils. Evil is bad last time I checked and should be "vanquished" altogether To the batmobile! ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.04.10 07:25:00 - [38] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Carniflex Not signed. RMT and GTC are different where GTC is lesser of two evils. Evil is bad last time I checked and should be "vanquished" altogether The level of stupidty surrounding this continues to amaze. GTC's are not 'evil' you twit (and no, I don't buy or use them in any way shape or form) -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Plave Okice Gallente Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.04.10 08:30:00 - [39] Demand for people to buy in game money with real money will never go away, plenty of people will always want to do it. CCP's method of alllowing GTC sales accepts the fact that there is demand and tries to add some control to it, and if anyone makes money from it, it should be CCP, it is their game.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.04.10 08:42:00 - [40] Originally by: Tarminic If CCP could remove the presence of farmers from EVE, I would sign this. Doing so while farmers are still present in EVE would be an economic disaster, so no. This. I don't really like the GTC for ISK solution, but I have yet to see a better idea presented. By now, I'm not sure there is one. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.10 08:47:00 - [41] nooooooooo! me dont like... even though I dont like ppl who make ISK by selling GTC then I also dont like not being able to play EVE, 3 accounts is expensive to poor ppl like me :) so I prefer the GTC/ISK thing.
Davlos Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.04.10 08:51:00 - [42] Edited by: Davlos on 10/04/2008 08:53:59 I'm a serviceman on active duty with only 48 hours of free time per week (sometimes), most of the time only 24, and I can function comfortably in EVE with at least over half a billion in my wallet at any one time and PvPing happily. It's all about knowing where and how to make your passive income. If you can't and need GTCs for ISK to survive, you need to play some other game. I refuse to share the same air and game with people who, during a game of Monopoly slam some printed ten thousand dollars into their hands in the middle of it just because they can. Any decent chaps will immediately penetrate the offender's rear orifice with a splintered stake for the heresy. If you can't cope with the expense because of your 9 accounts, then reduce how many you have and start using something called 'TEAMWORK'. I believe the folks who made this fine game intended on this thing being used. See the mortgage meltdown out there? That's because of intellectual midgets who couldn't manage their finances and didn't know how to stop their dependence on overextended credit and debt. Same thing. Start tightening them belts, people. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Zarin	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:05:00 - [43] The problem CCP have is no matter what they do, it is impossible for them to remove the RMT demand. By providing a way to do it without involving isk farmers, they eliminate the most destructive ways of creating isk (macroing, farming etc) Which have other effects on the economy (basically they start to drive it into the ground, destroying the game for everyone. Quote: I can sustain my alliance / corp / character with real money. Using isk another player earnt and gave to you, I mean, they allow trading isk for chars, isk for services, isk from scamming etc. There are tonnes of ways to get isk without earning it ingame. But the important bit is that the isk hasn't come from means that destroy the economy (And BTW with farmers buying GTCs this way also, they are still contributing, but wouldn't exist if players all used the GTC method.) CCP aren't printing the isk to sell this way, so it's not effecting the economy in the same way. Also, if you spend 1000 Euros trying to sustain your alliance/corp/char, and still fail miserably. That's all the more sweet victory for your enemies. BTW, isk farmers have accounts, and they actually use the GTC method to avoid paying CCP, without it they'd have to buy game time like everyone else. They too would mean money in CCP's wallet, but they would also mean accounts that play 23/7 and don't participate in the game like other players. The GTC method also means that many players keep playing who would otherwise leave. This has been this way for a very long time now, it hurts the game far less than the alternative.
Grarr Dexx Amarr laloutre Corp	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:39:00 - [44] Petition this, petition that, if you can't back your own argument up solely by yourself you prove that it's not a waterproof point.
Blood Daemon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.10 14:54:00 - [45] Originally by: Tarminic If CCP could remove the presence of farmers from EVE, I would sign this. Doing so while farmers are still present in EVE would be an economic disaster, so no. I chose your reply at random ;).. not point your post specific, but if CCP banned every ISK farmer, they would go bankcrupt... EVE has come to the stage that, there are more farmers than actual real players, they have more accounts.. and possibly more and more being created each and everyday.. CCP WILL stop the advertising, but I seriously doubt they would want to get rid of the farmers themselves as they create profit for CCP, and as long as CCP's wallets are growing, I doubt they give a **** about us ------------------
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.10 15:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Blood Daemon Originally by: Tarminic If CCP could remove the presence of farmers from EVE, I would sign this. Doing so while farmers are still present in EVE would be an economic disaster, so no. I chose your reply at random ;).. not point your post specific, but if CCP banned every ISK farmer, they would go bankcrupt... EVE has come to the stage that, there are more farmers than actual real players, they have more accounts.. and possibly more and more being created each and everyday.. CCP WILL stop the advertising, but I seriously doubt they would want to get rid of the farmers themselves as they create profit for CCP, and as long as CCP's wallets are growing, I doubt they give a ** about us EVE's economy could only tolerate a certain population of farmers - I'm guessing farmer accounts are 10-20% of CCP's business. Any more than that and they would start to have very serious effects on the economy. If half of EVE accounts are farmers, then we would be truly and thoroughly boned. We'd be seeing double digit monthly inflation. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)**
Jukhta Mein	Posted - 2008.04.10 15:15:00 - [47] I support this idea.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.04.10 15:40:00 - [48] GTCs for ISK reduce the profitability of ISK selling. I would like rid of it but I'd like to make ISK selling less attractive more. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag

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