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How balanced are tier 3 BC's?

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Digital Messiah Heroic Era 133	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:30:00 - [1] - Quote I ask this question for a few reasons. My main interest however is toward the ease of introducing new ships to EVE online. It doesn't seem like it is "outstandingly" difficult to add new life to these old bones. What is your point of view on the subject? And when will there be "enough" ship variety / ships in game? "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" Enter a Heroic Era Today
mxzf Shovel Bros 793	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:37:00 - [2] - Quote Don't fall into the fallacy of "more ships is better". There's already a ton of variety and ships in the game, adding more just makes it harder to balance them, it doesn't cause people to fly more ships. Ships should only be added if there's a clear need for them to fill a role, not just to have more of them.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 887	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:41:00 - [3] - Quote IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle. The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Jones Bones Brutor Bike Co. Heretic Nation 38	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:46:00 - [4] - Quote Many ships can be fit as "glass cannons". The Tier 3 BCs were designed to be "glass cannons".
Jones Bones Brutor Bike Co. Heretic Nation 38	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:48:00 - [5] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. For solo or small gang this is true. But as a long range line ship in medium to large fleets it really shines.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 887	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:52:00 - [6] - Quote Jones Bones wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. For solo or small gang this is true. But as a long range line ship in medium to large fleets it really shines. Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Jones Bones Brutor Bike Co. Heretic Nation 38	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:57:00 - [7] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work. -Liang Slap Tachs on it and Sebos and you're doing 500 dps @ 170km. Cheaper and more agile than a bunch of Apocs too.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 887	Posted - 2012.02.28 19:14:00 - [8] - Quote Jones Bones wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work. -Liang Slap Tachs on it and Sebos and you're doing 500 dps @ 170km. Cheaper and more agile than a bunch of Apocs too. Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable. +1 -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Alara IonStorm 1688	Posted - 2012.02.28 19:18:00 - [9] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable. PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers.
Kovorix Matari Exodus 33	Posted - 2012.02.28 20:02:00 - [10] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Jones Bones wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. For solo or small gang this is true. But as a long range line ship in medium to large fleets it really shines. Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work. -Liang This works out for small gangs too, as long as you have competent gang mates who can keep points. Overall I think tier 3s are well balanced, but also are changing the game in fairly drastic ways just by increasing the overall damage and speed on the field in every fight. I think the changes (in fleet comp, tactics, general understandings) aren't through settling yet either.
Grimpak Midnight Elites Echelon Rising 391	Posted - 2012.02.28 20:09:00 - [11] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle. The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang considering that the naga can project damage in quite a large envelope when compared with all the other 3, having the least mobility of all 4 sorta counterbalances it imho. all in all, all 4 tier3 BC's have a place in today's game. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Cephelange du'Krevviq Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn 33	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:21:00 - [12] - Quote I've honestly never understood why someone would put a point on a T3 - exception being a Talos, perhaps. Most of them seem to be intended to operate at ranges well outside of using any sort of point. The most obvious way they suggest being employed is with light or heavy tacklers to keep the targets in place while they're sniped from a distance.
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 126	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:48:00 - [13] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable. PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers. You beat me to it.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:55:00 - [14] - Quote Cambarus wrote: Alara IonStorm wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable. PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers. You beat me to it. I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea. /shrug -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
axxeessee Trade and Supplies Co. 0	Posted - 2012.02.28 22:09:00 - [15] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle. The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang The oracle is, by far, the strongest of the T3 bcs for small gang pvp, and when I say far I mean borderline imbalanced. Find me any ship in the game that has the ability to put a full 800 dps at 70km with the tracking of mega pulse. (Hint : Only a Baddon can have that sort of damage projection if its gank fit, only problem is your baddon cant do 4k/s like the oracle)
Exploited Engineer Creatively Applied Violence Inc. 21	Posted - 2012.02.28 22:12:00 - [16] - Quote Jones Bones wrote: Many ships can be fit as "glass cannons". The Tier 3 BCs were designed to be "glass cannons". They were designed to be cheap (once insured) glass cannons.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.28 22:14:00 - [17] - Quote axxeessee wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle. The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang The oracle is, by far, the strongest of the T3 bcs for small gang pvp, and when I say far I mean borderline imbalanced. Find me any ship in the game that has the ability to put a full 800 dps at 70km with the tracking of mega pulse. (Hint : Only a Baddon can have that sort of damage projection if its gank fit, only problem is your baddon cant do 4k/s like the oracle) I can't really visualize it being that good. The lack of a web is just too crippling to be anywhere near a frigate. Can you post some videos up showcasing its abilities? -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Alara IonStorm 1688	Posted - 2012.02.28 22:25:00 - [18] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea. /shrug -Liang I don't feel that it invalidates anything you said. I just posted it because I saw that they were using them... Did you think I was trying to pick some sort of fight?
axxeessee Trade and Supplies Co. 0	Posted - 2012.02.28 22:25:00 - [19] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: axxeessee wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle. The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang The oracle is, by far, the strongest of the T3 bcs for small gang pvp, and when I say far I mean borderline imbalanced. Find me any ship in the game that has the ability to put a full 800 dps at 70km with the tracking of mega pulse. (Hint : Only a Baddon can have that sort of damage projection if its gank fit, only problem is your baddon cant do 4k/s like the oracle) I can't really visualize it being that good. The lack of a web is just too crippling to be anywhere near a frigate. Can you post some videos up showcasing its abilities? -Liang The trick is to not stay close to anything, you let your gang stay in point range, and you stay far in the back. You cant have a pure oracle gang for obvious reasons, but if you just have a couple of tanky bcs (drakes) to hold points, there is no ship in the game that comes even remotely close to the DPS that an oracle can deal (and since you should be sitting at 70k off everything, you should pretty much be safe). You also need those drakes or whatever to intercept frigates asap, and you should focus them down. (Even if the oracle has BS sized weapon, the tracking is actually pretty good at range for hitting frigates) The oracle is extremely dependant on your gang, but if your gang is just a little bit comptetent, the damage projection is just borderline OP. The fit is mwd + 2 lse in mids, full rack of mega pulse, and full gank in the lows ( heat sinks and TEs only). As long as you are within 70K (scorch optimal, very balanced I know...), you are dealing a full 780dps (no heat, no implants). Compare that to the other T3s, the tornado doesnt even apply any damage at that range, blaster naga/talos also dont have close to that range, and rail naga/talos dont have close to the tracking of mega pulse. Got no videos right now but ill try to find something.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.28 22:26:00 - [20] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea. /shrug -Liang I don't feel that it invalidates anything you said. I just posted it because I saw that they were using them... Did you think I was trying to pick some sort of fight? Not until Cambarus posted. ;-) -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Ahrieman Heretic Army Heretic Nation 64	Posted - 2012.02.28 22:35:00 - [21] - Quote Kovorix wrote: Overall I think tier 3s are well balanced, but also are changing the game in fairly drastic ways just by increasing the overall damage and speed on the field in every fight. I think the changes (in fleet comp, tactics, general understandings) aren't through settling yet either. I have to agree with you here. It seems that many groups and FC's aren't using them to their full advantage and are still trying to settle on the best roles for them to take on. As they become more prevalent in fleet comps, the dynamics of the game will continue to shift. Sig tanking is the new black
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 126	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:31:00 - [22] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Alara IonStorm wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea. /shrug -Liang I don't feel that it invalidates anything you said. I just posted it because I saw that they were using them... Did you think I was trying to pick some sort of fight? Not until Cambarus posted. ;-) -Liang It's true, I do enjoy disagreeing with Liang Great way to kill some time and there are few people on the forums as anal in their replies as I am ^_^ That said, I should point out that I was referring moreso to the PL reference than the liang quote in it, the quote that it ACTUALLY invalidates is this one: Liang Nuren wrote: The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang The oracle is used with more than reasonable success despite being a 3 med ship, meaning your assertion that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class is provably false.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:33:00 - [23] - Quote Cambarus wrote: It's true, I do enjoy disagreeing with Liang Great way to kill some time and there are few people on the forums as anal in their replies as I am ^_^ That said, I should point out that I was referring moreso to the PL reference than the liang quote in it, the quote that it ACTUALLY invalidates is this one: Liang Nuren wrote: The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang The oracle is used with more than reasonable success despite being a 3 med ship, meaning your assertion that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class is provably false. I wasn't aware that PL fought in less than 500 man gangs with 200 supers on standby? -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 126	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:41:00 - [24] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Cambarus wrote: It's true, I do enjoy disagreeing with Liang Great way to kill some time and there are few people on the forums as anal in their replies as I am ^_^ That said, I should point out that I was referring moreso to the PL reference than the liang quote in it, the quote that it ACTUALLY invalidates is this one: Liang Nuren wrote: The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web. -Liang The oracle is used with more than reasonable success despite being a 3 med ship, meaning your assertion that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class is provably false. I wasn't aware that PL fought in less than 500 man gangs with 200 supers on standby? -Liang I wasn't aware that mandatory and mandatory in small gang lowsec pvp were one in the same?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:46:00 - [25] - Quote Cambarus wrote: I wasn't aware that mandatory and mandatory in small gang lowsec pvp were one in the same? Then maybe you should read the ******* post in question. Afterall, it says "for my purposes" quite clearly in it. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 126	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:58:00 - [26] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Cambarus wrote: I wasn't aware that mandatory and mandatory in small gang lowsec pvp were one in the same? Then maybe you should read the ******* post in question. Afterall, it says "for my purposes" quite clearly in it. -Liang I'd really rather not argue semantics, but your post mentions your own purposes in a separate paragraph from the quote in question, and you said "The problem with..." instead of "My problem with..." and "mandatory in this ship class" rather than "mandatory for small gangs" or something to that effect. You implied that the statement was aimed at the ships as a whole, rather than your style of pvp.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:59:00 - [27] - Quote Cambarus wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Cambarus wrote: I wasn't aware that mandatory and mandatory in small gang lowsec pvp were one in the same? Then maybe you should read the ******* post in question. Afterall, it says "for my purposes" quite clearly in it. -Liang I'd really rather not argue semantics, but your post mentions your own purposes in a separate paragraph from the quote in question, and you said "The problem with..." instead of "My problem with..." and "mandatory in this ship class" rather than "mandatory for small gangs" or something to that effect. You implied that the statement was aimed at the ships as a whole, rather than your style of pvp. Yes, you do want to argue semantics. The post was self explanatory to any competent reader of English, and now you're just arguing on a fringe interpretation just so you can continue a ridiculous attack. ****. Off. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:04:00 - [28] - Quote axxeessee wrote: The trick is to not stay close to anything, you let your gang stay in point range, and you stay far in the back. You cant have a pure oracle gang for obvious reasons, but if you just have a couple of tanky bcs (drakes) to hold points, there is no ship in the game that comes even remotely close to the DPS that an oracle can deal (and since you should be sitting at 70k off everything, you should pretty much be safe). You also need those drakes or whatever to intercept frigates asap, and you should focus them down. (Even if the oracle has BS sized weapon, the tracking is actually pretty good at range for hitting frigates) The oracle is extremely dependant on your gang, but if your gang is just a little bit comptetent, the damage projection is just borderline OP. The fit is mwd + 2 lse in mids, full rack of mega pulse, and full gank in the lows ( heat sinks and TEs only). As long as you are within 70K (scorch optimal, very balanced I know...), you are dealing a full 780dps (no heat, no implants). Compare that to the other T3s, the tornado doesnt even apply any damage at that range, blaster naga/talos also dont have close to that range, and rail naga/talos dont have close to the tracking of mega pulse. Got no videos right now but ill try to find something. Hmmm... this seems like it'd be really hard to work into the overall strategy you tend to see in smaller gangs - afterall the ability to "spread points" and hold more of their fleet down while applying DPS is highly prized. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I'm skeptical it can work without the ability for 1-2 people to mass tackle a mostly immobile fleet (Basically, without bubbles). That's why I tend to put such a heavy focus on that web - even with gang bonuses you're looking at 41km overheated point range... which isn't very far when a 10km/s Ares comes roaring in for the tackle. When they sweep in for the scram, its so important to be able to apply that web and drop their transversal. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 126	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:06:00 - [29] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Yes, you do want to argue semantics. OK you got me there Liang Nuren wrote: The post was self explanatory to any competent reader of English, and now you're just arguing on a fringe interpretation just so you can continue a ridiculous attack. It was at best ambiguous, and this fringe interpretation you're referring to is more commonly known as proper grammar. It's rare, but I stand by it. 7 Liang Nuren wrote: ****. Off. -Liang Hugs and kisses <3 -Camb.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:12:00 - [30] - Quote Cambarus wrote: ... I just ignored your posts. I won't be responding to you again, since you obviously have nothing useful to contribute to any conversations and just intend to troll and disrupt productive threads. Good day sir. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

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