the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

For solo or small gang this is true. But as a long range line ship in medium to large fleets it really shines.

Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work.

-Liang

Slap Tachs on it and Sebos and you're doing 500 dps @ 170km. Cheaper and more agile than a bunch of Apocs too.

Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable.

Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work.

-Liang

IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang

PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers.

You beat me to it.

IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang

Many ships can be fit as "glass cannons". The Tier 3 BCs were designed to be "glass cannons".

The oracle is, by far, the strongest of the T3 bcs for small gang pvp, and when I say far I mean borderline imbalanced.

Find me any ship in the game that has the ability to put a full 800 dps at 70km with the tracking of mega pulse. (Hint : Only a Baddon can have that sort of damage projection if its gank fit, only problem is your baddon cant do 4k/s like the oracle)

I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea.

/shrug

-Liang

I can't really visualize it being that good. The lack of a web is just too crippling to be anywhere near a frigate. Can you post some videos up showcasing its abilities?

-Liang

I don't feel that it invalidates anything you said.

I just posted it because I saw that they were using them...

Did you think I was trying to pick some sort of fight?

Overall I think tier 3s are well balanced, but also are changing the game in fairly drastic ways just by increasing the overall damage and speed on the field in every fight. I think the changes (in fleet comp, tactics, general understandings) aren't through settling yet either.

Not until Cambarus posted. ;-)

-Liang

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang

It's true, I do enjoy disagreeing with Liang Great way to kill some time and there are few people on the forums as anal in their replies as I am ^_^
That said, I should point out that I was referring moreso to the PL reference than the liang quote in it, the quote that it ACTUALLY invalidates is this one:
The oracle is used with more than reasonable success despite being a 3 med ship, meaning your assertion that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class is provably false.

I wasn't aware that PL fought in less than 500 man gangs with 200 supers on standby?

-Liang

I wasn't aware that mandatory and mandatory in small gang lowsec pvp were one in the same?

Then maybe you should read the ******* post in question. Afterall, it says "for my purposes" quite clearly in it.

-Liang

I'd really rather not argue semantics, but your post mentions your own purposes in a separate paragraph from the quote in question, and you said "The problem with..." instead of "My problem with..." and "mandatory in this ship class" rather than "mandatory for small gangs" or something to that effect. You implied that the statement was aimed at the ships as a whole, rather than your style of pvp.

The trick is to not stay close to anything, you let your gang stay in point range, and you stay far in the back. You cant have a pure oracle gang for obvious reasons, but if you just have a couple of tanky bcs (drakes) to hold points, there is no ship in the game that comes even remotely close to the DPS that an oracle can deal (and since you should be sitting at 70k off everything, you should pretty much be safe). You also need those drakes or whatever to intercept frigates asap, and you should focus them down. (Even if the oracle has BS sized weapon, the tracking is actually pretty good at range for hitting frigates)

The oracle is extremely dependant on your gang, but if your gang is just a little bit comptetent, the damage projection is just borderline OP. The fit is mwd + 2 lse in mids, full rack of mega pulse, and full gank in the lows ( heat sinks and TEs only). As long as you are within 70K (scorch optimal, very balanced I know...), you are dealing a full 780dps (no heat, no implants). Compare that to the other T3s, the tornado doesnt even apply any damage at that range, blaster naga/talos also dont have close to that range, and rail naga/talos dont have close to the tracking of mega pulse.

Got no videos right now but ill try to find something.

Yes, you do want to argue semantics.

The post was self explanatory to any competent reader of English, and now you're just arguing on a fringe interpretation just so you can continue a ridiculous attack.

****.

Off.

-Liang

...

I just ignored your posts. I won't be responding to you again, since you obviously have nothing useful to contribute to any conversations and just intend to troll and disrupt productive threads.

Good day sir.

-Liang

It started off as a useful post, and you went and pretended not to have made a point that was dis-proven rather than admit you were wrong. I can hear the butthurt from here, and eve doesn't even have sound :)

What the hell are you talking about m8? I made a specific post that was grammatically correct. He insisted on misinterpreting it and flaming me. I corrected his interpretation of it and he persisted in arguing linguistic semantics. If there isn't a better time to ignore someone I really haven't seen it.

He is literally one of the worst poasters on this forum and has had the same M.O. for well over a year.

-Liang

It's not a bad interpretation, so rather than simply clarifying it why are you getting so mad? Like I said, butthurt.

Two things:
- Why do you feel that I'm angry? Its more tired of ******** people than angry.
- Yes, it was a bad interpretation of the post. I don't think any reasonable person would have interpreted it the way he did without having a specific bone to pick.

He is literally one of the worst poasters on this forum and has had the same M.O. for well over a year.
-Liang

****.

Off.

-Liang

Then maybe you should read the ******* post in question.

Really wouldn't help tbh.

Also since I got sidetracked and forgot to mention this earlier:

The oracle could use a slight nerf(or the naga could use a slight buff). It ODs the naga out to nearly 200km IIRC which it just shouldn't be able to do, especially when you look at the difference in range vs damage of pulses and blasters (which are also skewed to make amarr come out on top)

- Why do you feel that I'm angry?

i too, lace my posting with profanity when im not, in fact, angry

i too, lace my posting with profanity when im not, in fact, angry

I wasn't aware that mandatory and mandatory in small gang lowsec pvp were one in the same?

I'd really rather not argue semantics, but your post mentions your own purposes in a separate paragraph from the quote in question, and you said "The problem with..." instead of "My problem with..." and "mandatory in this ship class" rather than "mandatory for small gangs" or something to that effect. You implied that the statement was aimed at the ships as a whole, rather than your style of pvp.

...

I disagree the Naga is balls useless. When on a POS bash and only the dreads out-DPS your Naga, you know something's a bit...shall we say...lulsy?

I think that Liang's problem is the fact he sits in Amamake all day pew pewing with frigs - which is fine, because I suck at frig v frig shtuff and each to their own. This skews your appreciation of "what must be in a small gang ship" toward needing tackle, webs, blah blah. This is simply not true.

Even in a gang of 4 ships, 3 x nanocane 1x sniper (Oracle/Naga/Tornado; Talos sucks) is a very viable gang.

Second point....how effective is it, really, when everyone is told to "spread points"? In every situation I've seen, there's alays a couple of ships that slip the net in small gang engagements - and you only ever kill everything when your enemy herp-de-derps. Its impossible, eg, in 8 vs 8, for everyone to reliably spread points to all other 8 people all the time (it can randomly happen but the chances are minuscule).

So. Given you won't get 100% points 100% of the time, if someone gives up point/web to double or even triple their DPS and run a pure gunboat....what's the issue? It means you can DPS down the enemy faster, freeing points to lay on the others.

The one place I would not want to take a tier 3 was into an assault through a wormhole. Camping off a wormhole as a sniper, fine, but jumping into balls-touching range with no tank, to a gank-and-tank WH brawl? Suigay.

That said it's definitely a PvP ship and has little place in PvE, 'cept maybe dual boxing missions and stuff.

Really wouldn't help tbh.

Also since I got sidetracked and forgot to mention this earlier:

The oracle could use a slight nerf(or the naga could use a slight buff). It ODs the naga out to nearly 200km IIRC which it just shouldn't be able to do, especially when you look at the difference in range vs damage of pulses and blasters (which are also skewed to make amarr come out on top)

The 200km figure was based on the paper sniper setups PL have been fielding, though tbh it should have occurred to me that most people like to fit some sort of tank to their ships

PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers.

apart from the high scan resolution tier3 BC's have, i think they're pretty well balanced in terms of dmg/EHP/speed

But i dont like the idea about ships with oversized guns ( makes me think, ccp lost imagination ) but this is my opinion... i for one hope, we wont get any new ship with oversized guns ever

li

I'm still of the opinion that they should have either not had 8 turret slots (say, about 6), or should have had all 8 but been PG limited enough that you couldn't put a whole rack of top tier guns on without an utter lolfit.

Mostly because from what I'm reading about useage, they do seem to be stepping quite heavily on BS's toes thanks to being on par (if not better) in the firepower stakes while retaining mobility & being quite a bit cheaper.

The trick is to not stay close to anything, you let your gang stay in point range, and you stay far in the back. You cant have a pure oracle gang for obvious reasons, but if you just have a couple of tanky bcs (drakes) to hold points, there is no ship in the game that comes even remotely close to the DPS that an oracle can deal (and since you should be sitting at 70k off everything, you should pretty much be safe). You also need those drakes or whatever to intercept frigates asap, and you should focus them down. (Even if the oracle has BS sized weapon, the tracking is actually pretty good at range for hitting frigates)

The oracle is extremely dependant on your gang, but if your gang is just a little bit comptetent, the damage projection is just borderline OP. The fit is mwd + 2 lse in mids, full rack of mega pulse, and full gank in the lows ( heat sinks and TEs only). As long as you are within 70K (scorch optimal, very balanced I know...), you are dealing a full 780dps (no heat, no implants). Compare that to the other T3s, the tornado doesnt even apply any damage at that range, blaster naga/talos also dont have close to that range, and rail naga/talos dont have close to the tracking of mega pulse.

Got no videos right now but ill try to find something.

The Naga is bad for small gang PvP because it has tank (which is useless), slow speed (which is bad), and low range (3 lowslots, heh).

Maybe there should be some sort of med-slot module that would increase optimal range?

. Sure BS still have a place as they have more staying power but gank > tank in fleet combat so that 'place' is getting weaker.

Btw, what was the hybrid buff exactly? I know about the 5 second reload time but what else was done? Ta.

What a ridiculous idea. And if only the Naga were range bonused, it certainly would be nice to lob antimatter at 70km+. Oh well, we can dream.

I've just returned to the game after a 3.5 year hiatus and haven't actually PVP'ed again yet! So perhaps I'm not in a position to talk about the balance of the tier 3's... However, I have always taken an interest in balancing and was previously very vocal in here as Liang and Goumindong (if he's still about?) can testify. I.e. shutup and listen! :P

Just looking at the bonuses on the tier 3's and the nature of their weaponry frightens me. I appreciate what CCP are trying to do here, they're trying to provide a ship worthy of its namesake, a true battlecruiser. I feel that given how prominent the firepower is and how cheap the ship is (insurable tech1), this class is going to have more of an effect on PVP than any introduction since dreads and carriers first appeared on our scanners (i remember killing the first dread ever fielded! :P). 8 bonused large weapons projecting damage out to long ranges seems pretty extreme to me. Sure BS still have a place as they have more staying power but gank > tank in fleet combat so that 'place' is getting weaker. And what of the tier 1 BC's? In some cases they still have a point (Brutix) but in the other 3 cases its looking even sorrier than it already was when tier 2's came out. I mean the Ferox now, the only application I can see for it is to attract fights under the guise that you're flying a crap ship, problem is, you really are flying a crap ship! The Prophecy and the Cyclone don't come off much better.

Btw, what was the hybrid buff exactly? I know about the 5 second reload time but what else was done? Ta.

What passes for "small gang" 0.0 combat these days would be the large fleet fights off yesteryear involving 50-200 per side, and the logi heavy environment has meant people turned to Alpha Fleets.

AFAIK, Tier 3s are only being successfully used in fleet combat by one alliance (PL)... and even then I'm not sure how many they're rolling around with.

Small gang is same everywhere.

Nulli uses Nagas.
-A-, NCdot, Occupational Hazard and a few others use plated Oracles.

The only times I've fought PL Tier 3s, they were really gay, no-tank Tach Oracles and never really stuck around on-grid long enough to do anything (that I noticed).

That's pretty funny. I've seen you call what would been considered a "small gang" 3-4 years ago a "tiny gang" and what would have been called a good size fleet a "small gang". July 2007 still referred to getting 40 people into fleet an op - and 150 people was considered "old school" game crashing blobbage. The 2008 QY6 fleet fight in the famous "Tonight we dine in NOL" campaign only involved ~100 Goonswarm to ~80 BOB. In contrast the recent O2O fleet fight had over 1900 simultaneous people.



Fair enough - you're generally really well informed about what the latest and greatest blob tactics are, and who's using each one.

-Liang

For small gang, Oracle is the best assuming you have adequate tackle/anti-tackle (Tier 2 BCs do this well), otherwise the Talos. Tornado is in between the two extremes IMO - not enough gank (less DPS than an equivalent Oracle fit at every range) but it has the ability to fit a point whilst still being fast and having a credible shield tank (same as an Arty Cane). Naga's lack of lows really hurt it - not enough to fit nanos as well as a respectable amount of damage mods, both of which are required.

The oracle dosen't have anything like enough CPU for you to be able to fit it in a way that is actually remtoely effective.

The problem with the Naga is it has horribad tracking. In the one real fight I got with them, they were unable to track a (well-flown) Huginn under 40km.

At first (on SiSi), I was a fan of the Tornado, then after they hit TQ the Tornado looked worse and worse. ACs are... well, ACs and project DPS fairly poorly even with a falloff bonus. Arties can't track intelligently flown HACs/recons/logis, even MWDing Muninns at 30km-ish. Nagas out-range them, Talos out-DPSes them at relevant small gang ranges, Oracles put out more DPS and do it further.

That's my opinion anyway.

Is a Blaga a realistic concept or does it get screwed by grid requirements? I'm at work so can't really check it out.

Putting a point on a Tornado is ....ironically...pointless IMO.

Its guns blow inside point range, if you need points use a tier 2 they are a hell of a lot better suited to that sort of work. On the outside the glass cannon 1400mm Nado is a nasty bastard when you can basically one shot damn near anything with 5 of them on a target.

Likewise Naga, that thing hits like a truck when you take into account that its damage and range bonused, and can sling anti-matter 70km with vollies in the upper 2k range....low slots or no. Not to mention that Naga has no need to compromise tank like the other three to fit long range guns, they have the best chance short of the Oracle to survive taking a couple hits.

It depends on application, I was less than impressed with the Talos out of the all three of them. In small gang (sub 20) I'm a big fan of my AC Tornado, assuming its some sort of fleet that isn't going to be gate humping.

A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet.

A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet.

You have some really bad FCs then - at least for small gangs. The Talos is unquestionably the best Tier 3 for small gang combat, but the Oracle scales a bit better because it has better damage projection.

-Liang

I too believe that the Talos is slow and must be at 3km to deal damage.

-Liang

No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.

No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.

I think Liang is about to introduce you to Null. I haven't used a Null Talos, but ten seconds in EFT gives 16/29 km and just under 900 DPS. Does look a bit flimsy though.

I think Liang is about to introduce you to Null. I haven't used a Null Talos, but ten seconds in EFT gives 16/29 km and just under 900 DPS. Does look a bit flimsy though.

Yeah scorch, gives you 55+10 or something silly like that, and an oracle CAN fit a 1600mm plate and big pulses.

Funny, but you get much above 5-10 people (where the Talos remains extremely powerful) and we're no longer in the small gang region.

-Liang

Ed: Also, let me know how your 3 SeBo Tornado tanks a Proteus landing on it at zero. My Talos did fine.

I can see how well your 1600mm plated Oracles work: http://rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=35897

-Liang

Got a running start?

No, he landed on me at zero with me pretty much sitting still. You can see it in the video link I posted. In fact, you might learn a lot about how to fly a Talos from watching my noob ass fly it.

-Liang

LOL

For real, three to one odds against faction BS with triage back up and that is the best you got?

How about LXQ2 where they dropped a titan? http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12588868

Magic 8 ball says odds are not good, simply because its not worth trying to get the hull out to where I live.

I wouldn't want to be in an alliance with such a ****** logistics backbone.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I like how you refuse to even enlighten yourself as to what the Talos is actually capable of, and instead rely on **** like claiming 150 people is a "small gang".

So squeezing 75 people onto a KM is small gang warfare these days? Maybe that's why you don't like blaster ships....

-Liang

Magic 8 ball says odds are not good, simply because its not worth trying to get the hull out to where I live.

You are sadly mistaken, all I have to do is say the word and as many as I ask for (or can pay for) get delivered. ...I simply have no use for it at the moment.

My idea of small gang is sub 50 ships, usually more like 20(ish) nothing that doesn't float around pretty much anywhere everyday. I never said that 150 is a small gang, and if I did, please, show me where.

I'm involved in bigger stuff certainly, that is why I moved out to null. Play tag with people calling me a "blobber" all while they are they are batphoning to get a bigger gang got old in lowsec.

and by all means, please, continue making **** up you highness.

So first you can't even get the hull delivered and now you just have to pay for it. Backpedal more.

You linked a battle report with ~150 people involved in a discussion about small gang warfare. You apparently do consider it to be a small gang - though you back out of it now. As to 50 people being a small gang... rrriiiiigggghhhttttt. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that - though I'm pretty confident that most people would see the world closer to my view than to yours.

But I guess them's the breaks when you do nothing but blob day in and day out.

-Liang

Yeah of course I have to pay for it. Hulls are reimbursed. But there are very few handouts, and yes, I have to pay for the hulls and mods. As much as I would like it they just don't hand you ships.....well anywhere really.

I don't see why this is a hard concept.

Magic 8 ball says odds are not good, simply because its not worth trying to get the hull out to where I live.

You linked a battle report with 600 people. It was more of a response to that. Like I said look up and down my KB, you found what 10 fleet kills out of a hundred?

Because I'm definately "blobbing" in my frigging dramiel and vagabound......neither of which are "fleet" ships.

But hey you can continue creatively interpreting simple statements, its pretty amusing.

Call names all you want, but I'm beginning to question your reading compression. Again, if you look up and down my KB you find what 10 fleet kills?

The creating interpretation is amusing though.

LOL at you people calling the Naga crap. The following battle report occurred in 2 phases; first a camping by a gang of 5pulse-plate(?) Oracles with lach/huginn/scimi; the second the Stain Empire naga fleet with naga/huginn/lach/claymore/scimis.

http://nem3sis.co.uk/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4342

The real losses are closer to 48-56, as this doesn't count losses of allies to Nem3sis.

The naga fleet were the real problem, sitting in the 120km range with the skiwmish-link boosted Lachesis pointing from 75-90km. Note this is 12 nagas., able to apha canes, all logis, all tackle

I'm not sure is a 17-20 man fleet is "small gang" enough for Liang, but they took on a fleet of 60 and racefaped for the loss of one ship.

LOL at you people calling the Naga crap.

"small gang'' warfare is perhaps more an indicator of the fighting style then of actual numbers. The key being strategic mobility with size being determined by factors like the availability of pilots, shiptype, opposing forces, fleet-discipline and the FC's abilities, etc

...giving true 2km/s kiting missile snipers...

What is wrong with the Cerb in this role?

I agree, the cerb seems to hit all the points you raised just fine.

IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang

Not every ship is to ment have enough mids to tackle, speed, and buffer..There are already too many ships that can do this.

What is wrong with the Cerb in this role?

maybe that it caps out after 4 or 5 MWD cycles

Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and 5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus per level

I disagree, a 50 man nanogang isn't small gang*, but a 3 man RRBS gang is, despite RRBS being the exact opposite of in terms of style. With some exceptions, once you get beyond 10-12 dudes, stuff that is important to small gangs* (utility especially) gets trumped by other considerations (DPS projection, EHP).

*less than 10 dudes

What is wrong with the Cerb in this role?

Ok, now I'm determined to find such a place for them! One of my alts uses a failfit Apoc that seems like it was trying to be an oracle before oracles existed (8x tachs, 4x heat sinks, paper tank). It's mainly useful in missions where everything spawns at 60km-90km so i can still use multifrequency, but have plenty of time to pop things while they have low transversal.