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How balanced are tier 3 BC's?

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half of eve Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:17:00 - [31] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Cambarus wrote: ... I just ignored your posts. I won't be responding to you again, since you obviously have nothing useful to contribute to any conversations and just intend to troll and disrupt productive threads. Good day sir. -Liang It started off as a useful post, and you went and pretended not to have made a point that was dis-proven rather than admit you were wrong. I can hear the butthurt from here, and eve doesn't even have sound :)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:21:00 - [32] - Quote half of eve wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Cambarus wrote: ... I just ignored your posts. I won't be responding to you again, since you obviously have nothing useful to contribute to any conversations and just intend to troll and disrupt productive threads. Good day sir. -Liang It started off as a useful post, and you went and pretended not to have made a point that was dis-proven rather than admit you were wrong. I can hear the butthurt from here, and eve doesn't even have sound :) What the hell are you talking about m8? I made a specific post that was grammatically correct. He insisted on misinterpreting it and flaming me. I corrected his interpretation of it and he persisted in arguing linguistic semantics. If there isn't a better time to ignore someone I really haven't seen it. He is literally one of the worst poasters on this forum and has had the same M.O. for well over a year. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
half of eve Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:26:00 - [33] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: half of eve wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Cambarus wrote: ... I just ignored your posts. I won't be responding to you again, since you obviously have nothing useful to contribute to any conversations and just intend to troll and disrupt productive threads. Good day sir. -Liang It started off as a useful post, and you went and pretended not to have made a point that was dis-proven rather than admit you were wrong. I can hear the butthurt from here, and eve doesn't even have sound :) What the hell are you talking about m8? I made a specific post that was grammatically correct. He insisted on misinterpreting it and flaming me. I corrected his interpretation of it and he persisted in arguing linguistic semantics. If there isn't a better time to ignore someone I really haven't seen it. He is literally one of the worst poasters on this forum and has had the same M.O. for well over a year. -Liang It's not a bad interpretation, so rather than simply clarifying it why are you getting so mad? Like I said, butthurt.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:28:00 - [34] - Quote half of eve wrote: It's not a bad interpretation, so rather than simply clarifying it why are you getting so mad? Like I said, butthurt. Two things: - Why do you feel that I'm angry? Its more tired of ******** people than angry. - Yes, it was a bad interpretation of the post. I don't think any reasonable person would have interpreted it the way he did without having a specific bone to pick. Also, welcome to the ignore list. -Liang Ed: Moar Content Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Anne Visible Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:41:00 - [35] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Two things: - Why do you feel that I'm angry? Its more tired of ****** people than angry. - Yes, it was a bad interpretation of the post. I don't think any reasonable person would have interpreted it the way he did without having a specific bone to pick. Liang Nuren wrote: He is literally one of the worst poasters on this forum and has had the same M.O. for well over a year. -Liang Liang Nuren wrote: . Off. -Liang Liang Nuren wrote:** Then maybe you should read the ******* post in question. You're right, how could I POSSIBLY have come to the conclusion that you're mad? Also, as far as I can tell jones read it the same way I did, and were you not so emotionally invested in such a petty argument you'd see that it really is an ambiguous statement, and that it was most certainly NOT a "fringe interpretation". But, rather than respond reasonably, you fly off the handle (which I must admit does make me giggle) You might want to go take a nap or something. When people get this worked up over a game they tend to have heart attacks.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:44:00 - [36] - Quote The Ignore list should really work for all characters on an account. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Orcirk The Baros Syndicate 1	Posted - 2012.02.29 00:49:00 - [37] - Quote Really wouldn't help tbh. Also since I got sidetracked and forgot to mention this earlier: The oracle could use a slight nerf(or the naga could use a slight buff). It ODs the naga out to nearly 200km IIRC which it just shouldn't be able to do, especially when you look at the difference in range vs damage of pulses and blasters (which are also skewed to make amarr come out on top)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 888	Posted - 2012.02.29 01:06:00 - [38] - Quote Orcirk wrote: Really wouldn't help tbh. Heh, I guess I'd still have to block the same guy several times anyway. Quote: Also since I got sidetracked and forgot to mention this earlier: The oracle could use a slight nerf(or the naga could use a slight buff). It ODs the naga out to nearly 200km IIRC which it just shouldn't be able to do, especially when you look at the difference in range vs damage of pulses and blasters (which are also skewed to make amarr come out on top) Hmmmm.... this has all the markings of the old Rokh vs Abaddon debates. I guess the core difference would be the Naga having ~37.5% more DPS (1.25 [dmg bonus] * 1.1 [hybrid buff]) and it actually being feasible to fit the Oracle that way. On the bright side, both ships seem to have their rabid supporters so something was done right. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Mfume Apocal Origin. Nulli Secunda 332	Posted - 2012.02.29 02:29:00 - [39] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: - Why do you feel that I'm angry? i too, lace my posting with profanity when im not, in fact, angry
Ahrieman Heretic Army Heretic Nation 64	Posted - 2012.02.29 02:55:00 - [40] - Quote I get censored even when I think I'm keeping my posts PG. That's why I like my corp forums - every topic there is NSFW Sig tanking is the new black

Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 892	Posted - 2012.02.29 03:59:00 - [41] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: - Why do you feel that I'm angry? i too, lace my posting with profanity when im not, in fact, angry You obviously haven't been on vent with me. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 126	Posted - 2012.02.29 04:06:00 - [42] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: - Why do you feel that I'm angry? i too, lace my posting with profanity when im not, in fact, angry For the record I also enjoyed the m8 and poaster being used in the same reply as the words "persisted in arguing linguistic semantics" Also for the record I've been posting like this for well over a year, but it wasn't until we butted heads over whether or not logis should get agression timers (to make a long story short, one of us mostly flies them on lowsec gates and thinks adding aggro timers would nerf them into the ground, and the other one is sane) that he took note of my posts.
Zarnak Wulf CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 262	Posted - 2012.02.29 04:15:00 - [43] - Quote How balanced are they? Against other BC of the same tier - It's rare when a class is universally liked. You might have a personal preference but shockingly, all can be called good. Against smaller ships - Other then the Talos they're vulnerable if they're set up as glass cannons. Yes, you can fit a duel web setup on all but the Oracle, but you gimp your EHP. Frigates are a threat if they can get up close. Against BS - Good for hit and run but they won't hold the field in a standup fight between equal numbers Against HACs - There's the rub. And it has more to do with HACs being lackluster then the Tier 3 BC being OP. Why fly a Deimos when I can fly a Talos? Just as an example - Deimos - 1741m/s with just a MWD. Talos - 1604m/s 160m signature radius vs. 200m Roughly 25% less damage then the Talos. Roughly the same amount of EHP. It's a trend that's been going on for a while but the Tier 3 BC are really the nail in the coffin for many HACs. You can get similar firepower and EHP - and some really great mobility - for a fraction of the price.
Trinkets friend Obstergo NEM3SIS. 160	Posted - 2012.02.29 04:19:00 - [44] - Quote I disagree the Naga is balls useless. When on a POS bash and only the dreads out-DPS your Naga, you know something's a bit...shall we say...lulsy? I think that Liang's problem is the fact he sits in Amamake all day pew pewing with frigs - which is fine, because I suck at frig v frig shtuff and each to their own. This skews your appreciation of "what must be in a small gang ship" toward needing tackle, webs, blah blah. This is simply not true. As others have pointed out, you have the option of rolling a tier 3 BC as a long-range DPS platform with tacklers holding everything down. This works well vs, eg, nanodrakes where you want to get to 80km++ to lay DPS on them as they run away from your tackle, and be basically immune to them. You cannot do this with blaster BC's (though Scorch and Barrage are still viable). Even in a gang of 4 ships, 3 x nanocane 1x sniper (Oracle/Naga/Tornado; Talos sucks) is a very viable gang. The nanocanes provide the pursuit and tackle andyour sniper, if he's a competent pilot, is there just to apply DPS. Unholy amounts thereof. Second point....how effective is it, really, when everyone is told to "spread points"? In every situation I've seen, there's alays a couple of ships that slip the net in small gang engagements - and you only ever kill everything when your enemy herp-de-derps. Its impossible, eg, in 8 vs 8, for everyone to reliably spread points to all other 8 people all the time (it can randomly happen but the chances are minuscule). So. Given you won't get 100% points 100% of the time, if someone gives up point/web to double or even triple their DPS and run a pure gunboat....what's the issue? It means you can DPS down the enemy faster, freeing points to lay on the others. The one place I would not want to take a tier 3 was into an assault through a wormhole. Camping off a wormhole as a sniper, fine, but jumping into balls-touching range with no tank, to a gank-and-tank WH brawl? Suigay. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu @trinketsfriend on twatter
JoeTwo PointOh Cult of Baal 11	Posted - 2012.02.29 05:20:00 - [45] - Quote Cambarus wrote: I wasn't aware that mandatory and mandatory in small gang lowsec pvp were one in the same? Cambarus wrote: I'd really rather not argue semantics, but your post mentions your own purposes in a separate paragraph from the quote in question, and you said "The problem with..." instead of "My problem with..." and "mandatory in this ship class" rather than "mandatory for small gangs" or something to that effect. You implied that the statement was aimed at the ships as a whole, rather than your style of pvp. You'd make a good politician. Define "is." I'll never understand why so many people feel the need to internet lawyer around, or in your case, argue the validness of absolutely perfect and flawless grammar syntax.
Cephelange du'Krevviq Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn 35	Posted - 2012.02.29 05:25:00 - [46] - Quote Cambarus wrote: ... Completely off-topic, but anyone ever tell you your character looks like Robbie Rotten? Not necessarily a bad thing, that's just who I think of.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 892	Posted - 2012.02.29 06:08:00 - [47] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: I disagree the Naga is balls useless. When on a POS bash and only the dreads out-DPS your Naga, you know something's a bit...shall we say...lulsy? Running something like this? [Naga, POS Bash] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Quote: I think that Liang's problem is the fact he sits in Amamake all day pew pewing with frigs - which is fine, because I suck at frig v frig shtuff and each to their own. This skews your appreciation of "what must be in a small gang ship" toward needing tackle, webs, blah blah. This is simply not true. Nah, frigs are super common all over FW low sec areas and its not like your Tier 3 is gonna weather gate guns a whole lot better than a frigate would. Worse, in some cases. You'll be facing frigs... probably lots of them - though certainly not all at once. Usually. Quote: Even in a gang of 4 ships, 3 x nanocane 1x sniper (Oracle/Naga/Tornado; Talos sucks) is a very viable gang. Rofl at the underlined part. The Talos is damn near OP. Quote: Second point....how effective is it, really, when everyone is told to "spread points"? In every situation I've seen, there's alays a couple of ships that slip the net in small gang engagements - and you only ever kill everything when your enemy herp-de-derps. Its impossible, eg, in 8 vs 8, for everyone to reliably spread points to all other 8 people all the time (it can randomly happen but the chances are minuscule). So. Given you won't get 100% points 100% of the time, if someone gives up point/web to double or even triple their DPS and run a pure gunboat....what's the issue? It means you can DPS down the enemy faster, freeing points to lay on the others. Sure, you're not going to get 100% penetration for tackle, but you'll do a hell of a lot better than getting 2 kills because you only have 2 inties with you. Quote: The one place I would not want to take a tier 3 was into an assault through a wormhole. Camping off a wormhole as a sniper, fine, but jumping into balls-touching range with no tank, to a gank-and-tank WH brawl? Suigay. That's one place where they're actually really good. Low mass, high DPS, passable tank... works great. :) -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Hrett Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords 50	Posted - 2012.02.29 07:08:00 - [48] - Quote Here is an idea - lets try to make a thread where more than half of it isn't taken up by y'alls nitpicky, petty and completely irrelevant squabbles. And for the record, I would much prefer they rebalance T1 frigs, cruisers and BCs instead of making more new ships. We have lots of ships already that are unused. Give us a reason to use them.
Kessiaan Greater Order Of Destruction Happy Endings 90	Posted - 2012.02.29 07:16:00 - [49] - Quote I only fly the Talos so far (training large projectiles for the Tornado), a bit mixed so far. My blaster Talos hits like a Megathron but it tanks like a Brutix and is slow like all armor ships. Can gank the **** out anything we would have killed anyway but it always gets primaried first and dies in a fire in any real fight. My 425 hurricane (scram or long point, depending on what we need that night) has almost twice as much EHP and goes a smidge over 2K overheated - using ECM drones to break webs (if there are any) it can still usually get away even if it's tackled close up since hardly anyone in nullsec carries scrams, at least down where I live. My midrange 425 roaming setup has similar range and alpha to my artycane but twice the DPS. But even at a dead stop it can't track anything smaller than a battlecruiser that's moving at speed, even with a tracking bonus and a tracking enhancer, and it's still slower than the artycane. The people we fight with like to blob us and being highly mobile and able to volley tackle reliably like a 720 'cane can is very important and easily worth the decrease in DPS. As a super long-range sniper it's OK, but we don't run those fleets very much and I don't like to solo camp in sniper fits. My killboard - http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kessiaan
Mike Whiite Progressive State 24	Posted - 2012.02.29 08:47:00 - [50] - Quote I think The Tier 3 battlecruiser are giving a smaller but simulair hit towards battleships as tier 2 battlecruisers did to cruisers, make battlecruisers even more dominant in PvP. Not that Battleships where often used in small PvP, but instead of making them more atracktive they came with another Battlecruiser. And condamning battleships even more to large fleet battles and PvE

Anize Oramara Ultimate Inc. Hephaestus Forge Alliance 8	Posted - 2012.02.29 13:12:00 - [51] - Quote The t3 BCs were actually pretty well thought out and balanced while still keeping them unique amongst each other. That said it's definitely a PvP ship and has little place in PvE, 'cept maybe dual boxing missions and stuff. Also, reading this thread I could see the set-up to bait Liang waaaay before it happened. Shame on you guys, can't you get your jollies in game now you have to bait someone of the forums too There's a difference between Forum PvP and just being petty little female dogs. 4.5/10 for success but fail at making it so obvious.

CCP Phantom C C P C C P Alliance 1039	Posted - 2012.02.29 17:50:00 - [52] - Quote Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic, thank you. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator

Mavnas The Scope Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2012.02.29 23:26:00 - [53] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: That said it's definitely a PvP ship and has little place in PvE, 'cept maybe dual boxing missions and stuff. Ok, now I'm determined to find such a place for them! One of my alts uses a failfit Apoc that seems like it was trying to be an oracle before oracles existed (8x tachs, 4x heat sinks, paper tank). It's mainly useful in missions where everything spawns at 60km-90km so i can still use multifrequency, but have plenty of time to pop things while they have low transversal.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts 205	Posted - 2012.02.29 23:29:00 - [54] - Quote Orcirk wrote: Really wouldn't help tbh. Also since I got sidetracked and forgot to mention this earlier: The oracle could use a slight nerf(or the naga could use a slight buff). It ODs the naga out to nearly 200km IIRC which it just shouldn't be able to do, especially when you look at the difference in range vs damage of pulses and blasters (which are also skewed to make amarr come out on top) Not sure how to get the 200 km figure. I've used the Naga quite a lot in WHs, as (at least when I EFTed it!) it had the most DPS at the edge of Drake HML range. And if there's one thing WHs aren't short of, it's Drakes... Let's see... triple MFS Naga, dual TC: 761 DPS at 70/49 km 697 DPS at 88/49 km 634 DPS at 105/49 km Triple HS Oracle, dual TE: 866 DPS at 47/41 km 794 DPS at 59/41 km 721 DPS at 71/41 km 649 DPS at 83/41 km 577 DPS at 94/41 km 505 DPS at 113/41 km Yeah so it looks like the Naga has a DPS advantage beyond about 70 km (and a slight EHP one). At the cost of mobility, tracking, and less damage closer up.
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 126	Posted - 2012.03.01 01:38:00 - [55] - Quote The 200km figure was based on the paper sniper setups PL have been fielding, though tbh it should have occurred to me that most people like to fit some sort of tank to their ships That said, a naga with 3 MFS does less DPS than an oracle with 3 heat sinks, and the oracle can push its optimal out to 180+ (with nearly 50km falloff) using the PL fit and aurora. The end result is that the oracle ODs the naga out to about 200km (the edge of its lock range) and the only way for the naga to get the same DPS as an oracle with aurora is to use navy lead, bringing its optimal down to about 150+60 (and even then, it's a tiny bit less DPS), Mind you now that I look at it more closely it seems that there really isn't that much of a difference to begin with, even their speeds and align times are close, maybe THAT's why so few people are complaining about the balance of these ships (aside from the airheads who honestly think a torp naga would be anything other than useless)
Yoma Karima Kuloldas 7	Posted - 2012.03.01 02:14:00 - [56] - Quote The Naga seems to be a good over all ship. I've been runing it on L3 missions with a blaster set up thats only tec1 and i can peg a rat frig at 32km (not with a hundred % accuracy mind you) with iron and anything destroyer sized and up with anti-matter at 18km (again not 100% of the time). Gauss Field Balancer I x 3 10MN Afterburner I Large F-S9 Regoth Shield Induction I Invulnerability Field I x 3 Web I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Anode Maga Neutron Particle Cannon I Yet the Naga is one of the most commen ships i've seen argued over in the forums. If it doese it's job what's the problem? Looks balanced to me. Those who wish to end War wish to end what it means to be human. Those who advocate War do not know its power. Yet Those who learn from War will be remembered for all time.
Onictus Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities 97	Posted - 2012.03.01 08:06:00 - [57] - Quote For fleet work the Naga is arguably the best of them. Mixed naga/tornado fleets are pretty wicked to. If you have ever seen what 25 pulse oracles does to a carrier....its pretty impressive. Talos is meh for a lot of the flying I do, but the WH guys friggin love them.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts 205	Posted - 2012.03.01 09:03:00 - [58] - Quote Cambarus wrote: The 200km figure was based on the paper sniper setups PL have been fielding, though tbh it should have occurred to me that most people like to fit some sort of tank to their ships Well, the model fits I was using weren't exactly well-tanked either! I'll have to check KBs for the PL fits though, because I'm still seeing a DPS advantage at mid-range for the Naga, from 65-140 km. Maybe I'm underestimating PL pimp...
Lijhal Innoruuks Wrath 9	Posted - 2012.03.01 09:03:00 - [59] - Quote apart from the high scan resolution tier3 BC's have, i think they're pretty well balanced in terms of dmg/EHP/speed But i dont like the idea about ships with oversized guns ( makes me think, ccp lost imagination ) but this is my opinion... i for one hope, we wont get any new ship with oversized guns ever li
Wacktopia Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 199	Posted - 2012.03.01 09:58:00 - [60] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable. PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers. Yeah man... even more than Erebus' it seems too! Vote Alekseyev Karrde for CSM7. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67574 Get War Decs, Sov, Low Sec that works.-á



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