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Quesa
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 17:51:00 -
[31]
Your problem is your comparison.
Your comparing a Mega, which does Kin/Therm (right?) dmg, to which shields already have high resists to. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.24 18:04:00 -
[32]
The problem is that gallente dps is no longer in balance with its range compared to other races.
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Dark Losk
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 00:14:00 -
[33]
the optimal range with blasters sucks so much, you have to be lucky and jump to 0 of the enemie, or you will have some problems to hit even with MWD activated, so yes, compared to other races, we suck at optimal ranges :(
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.25 07:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Small and medium ships work ok with blasters/drones. For BC and up, the short range required for effective firing plus the lack of mobility is a crippling flaw against an opponent that maneuvers - especially since the damage output at BS level isn't even the best.
Odd, I've always felt that the short range on blasters hurts the medium/small guns the most where you can't hit anything at the edge of web range. For Neutron Blaster Cannons with null, you hit better than a tempest shooting barrage all the way to the edge of SCRAM range.
If that isn't damning with faint praise, I don't know what is. In my opinion, Tempest also needs help, badly.
And IMO, with small ships, you can at least move the ship to the target reasonably quickly. For a Mega, if you start from 15km of the next target, you either load Null (extra-crap damage compared to torp Raven / Armageddon / Typhoon) or use some 20 seconds to get within optimal range and reasonable transversal - and that is if you don't get webbed at 13km out before you've gotten up to speed.
Another problem with Gallente is that a large amount of their damage comes from drones, which cannot be overloaded. Also they usually use armor buffer tank (with EANMs) that cannot be overloaded, either, while Raven (with invu2s) can.
And of course, with the current tracking disruptors, one is often enough to cripple the guns of one Gallente (or Amarr) BS completely. With Raven, there is no risk of that, and a Typhoon can at least do reasonable damage without its guns.
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter For the type of combat I see in lowsec, kills happen in web range; being able to shoot farther is nice, but is not neccessary, since you still wouldn't be able to track a nano-ship anyway.
If the opposing ships stay in one ball, yes, range is not needed. If the enemy heavy-hitters maneuver to 16-18km range, you either have to switch to Null or fly towards each new target for an eternity (or so it at least feels).
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter On the note of mobility though, I think the penalty for armor rigs should be changed to something else (maybe Sig radius like shield rigs?). This would help armor tank blaster ships as well as the tempest.
This might help somewhat, but I'm afraid that it wouldn't be enough. An idea might be to remove an "extra" highslot from some ships and increase the agility by a large amount. -- Gradient forum |
Lt Angus
Caldari Wicked Crew
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Posted - 2008.04.25 09:59:00 -
[35]
Double blaster falloff Double autocannon optimal and increase dps a little give arazu/lach bigger damp bonus replace rep amount with armor amount
Maybe a tad crazy but things need shaking up a bit,
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Leto Aramaus
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:10:00 -
[36]
Im an all Gallente, 20m sps mostly in combat pilot. I agree that the damage:range ratio on gallente ships hasnt gone up equally with the help to other races in recent patches. Ships like the hyperion and deimos deserve even more damage at close range to make them fair against other races' ships of equal size. *note I'm suggesting more damage WITHOUT a nerf to the tank or anything else for that matter. CCP should move one step at a time when balancing out the combat. Saying "sure well give the deimos more dps but take away all of its low slots and drone bay"... is NOT balancing. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:51:00 -
[37]
Short range race is short range?
What are the chances.
The problem here isn't Gallente ships, is that the average speed of everything has got too high - and in turn, means fighting in web range hurts more - which in turn means no one gets anywhere near a blaster ship. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:21:00 -
[38]
Originally by: James Lyrus Short range race is short range?
What are the chances.
The problem here isn't Gallente ships, is that the average speed of everything has got too high - and in turn, means fighting in web range hurts more - which in turn means no one gets anywhere near a blaster ship.
It has other bad effects. Allow me to quote from SHC
"But this is still causing us problems, because the game is simply not designed to function with ships hitting these speeds. It makes shorter range ships obsolete because you can't ever hope to get in range of the longer range ships and because you need a tank to survive to close anyway.[Basically, the less EHP ships have the more that range becomes damage, and since you have to sacrifice tank to fit speed mods to get in range of the fast long range ships you are lowering your EHP and extending their advantage. But if you fit tank then you simply cant catch and kill them and die anyway]"
So even if you make the blaster ship go fast to web and catch the fast ships its giving up its advantage to do so. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:33:00 -
[39]
Edited by: lecrotta on 26/04/2008 00:34:57
If you cannot hit nano ships cos they go too fast and close range ships suffer because they need to fit nano just to get close to other ships then not having a tank on them is irrelevant until they are in web range as they will be speed tanking until they close to dmg/web range and then the extra dps will count although this is mostly valid against missiles not gunnery ships with high tracking i suppose.
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:01:00 -
[40]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 26/04/2008 00:41:17
If you cannot hit nano ships cos they go too fast and close range ships suffer because they need to fit nano just to get close to other ships then not having a tank on them is irrelevant until they are in web range as they will be speed tanking until they close to dmg/web range and then the extra dps will count, although this is mostly valid against missiles not gunnery ships with high tracking i suppose. And of course id say this entire argument is all theory anyway as it is another 1 v 1 situation that is a total rarity in eve.
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
Nano ships do not speed tank.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.26 10:04:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: lecrotta
If you cannot hit nano ships cos they go too fast and close range ships suffer because they need to fit nano just to get close to other ships then not having a tank on them is irrelevant until they are in web range as they will be speed tanking until they close to dmg/web range and then the extra dps will count, although this is mostly valid against missiles not gunnery ships with high tracking i suppose. And of course id say this entire argument is all theory anyway as it is another 1 v 1 situation that is a total rarity in eve.
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
Nano ships do not speed tank.
So when i go really fast in my t2 cruiser and all those missiles either cannot catch me or hit for 0.1dmg and the gunnery ships miss me all the time what is that called?.
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Everyone Dies
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.26 18:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 26/04/2008 11:15:48
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: lecrotta
If you cannot hit nano ships cos they go too fast and close range ships suffer because they need to fit nano just to get close to other ships then not having a tank on them is irrelevant until they are in web range as they will be speed tanking until they close to dmg/web range and then the extra dps will count, although this is mostly valid against missiles not gunnery ships with high tracking i suppose. And of course id say this entire argument is all theory anyway as it is another 1 v 1 situation that is a total rarity in eve.
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
Nano ships do not speed tank.
So when i go really fast in my t2 nano cruiser and all those missiles either cannot catch me or hit for 0.1dmg and the gunnery ships miss me all the time cos their tracking cannot deal with my speed what is that called?.
an exploit of neglected imbalance
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.26 18:54:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Everyone Dies
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: lecrotta
If you cannot hit nano ships cos they go too fast and close range ships suffer because they need to fit nano just to get close to other ships then not having a tank on them is irrelevant until they are in web range as they will be speed tanking until they close to dmg/web range and then the extra dps will count, although this is mostly valid against missiles not gunnery ships with high tracking i suppose. And of course id say this entire argument is all theory anyway as it is another 1 v 1 situation that is a total rarity in eve.
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
Nano ships do not speed tank.
So when i go really fast in my t2 nano cruiser and all those missiles either cannot catch me or hit for 0.1dmg and the gunnery ships miss me all the time cos their tracking cannot deal with my speed what is that called?.
an exploit of neglected imbalance
Several billion isk worth of mods, implants and ship that i need to slow down just to kill things in is a exploit and imbalance?.. yea right.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.28 06:23:00 -
[44]
Originally by: lecrotta
If you cannot hit nano ships cos they go too fast and close range ships suffer because they need to fit nano just to get close to other ships then not having a tank on them is irrelevant until they are in web range as they will be speed tanking until they close to dmg/web range and then the extra dps will count, although this is mostly valid against missiles not gunnery ships with high tracking i suppose. And of course id say this entire argument is all theory anyway as it is another 1 v 1 situation that is a total rarity in eve.
The nano ships aren't especially a Gallente problem, although their short range makes them perhaps a bit more susceptible to them. I'd leave nanos out of the list of Gallente balance problems at least for now.
Originally by: lecrotta Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
This, this is the problem. -- Gradient forum |
Slade Hoo
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:35:00 -
[45]
Originally by: lecrotta
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
which other close range dmg ships you mean? don't know many ships that are MWDing to 0m distance to engage except for Gallente.
For rebalancing the blasters damage you might wanna have some extra cap usage like Lasers have for their superiority? don't think the Race with bonuses to active tank will like this. Perhaps you wanna have more range? so train for Amarr and fit Lasers. Otherwise you could introduce omni-weapons that fit on all racial ships. Blasters are fine as they are...everyone knows that blasterships close to you aren't good for your tank. They are scary. The damage is awesome and its damage type too. AC-Boats can't compete at all at closer ranges and Lasers have omgwtf-cap usage as a penalty. This penalty is so hard that every amarrian ship sacrifices half of the ship bonuses to it where gallente have some nice other goodies for their ships. Drones might need a little attention..i'm not really sure about it. Blasterboats are fine. When they get into range, they'll do the job. Dealing most dmg that is possible with moderate cap usage
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:50:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Slade Hoo
Originally by: lecrotta
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
which other close range dmg ships you mean? don't know many ships that are MWDing to 0m distance to engage except for Gallente.
For rebalancing the blasters damage you might wanna have some extra cap usage like Lasers have for their superiority? don't think the Race with bonuses to active tank will like this. Perhaps you wanna have more range? so train for Amarr and fit Lasers. Otherwise you could introduce omni-weapons that fit on all racial ships. Blasters are fine as they are...everyone knows that blasterships close to you aren't good for your tank. They are scary. The damage is awesome and its damage type too. AC-Boats can't compete at all at closer ranges and Lasers have omgwtf-cap usage as a penalty. This penalty is so hard that every amarrian ship sacrifices half of the ship bonuses to it where gallente have some nice other goodies for their ships. Drones might need a little attention..i'm not really sure about it. Blasterboats are fine. When they get into range, they'll do the job. Dealing most dmg that is possible with moderate cap usage
The dmg amarr put out with there close range setups is now very close to that of gallente dps but with considerably better range. And i you had ever fitted neutron blasters then you would know that gallante have very real cap issues as well.
Your ideas and thoughts about gallente fits and weapons are outdated and wrong as they have awful range, barely better dps and huge cap issues if they actually fit there high dps guns in the first place.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.28 18:42:00 -
[47]
Gallente is probably the best off overall race right now, considering all ship types and classes and situations. Just the fact that the megathron seems to be about half of every fleet and the dominix is the universally versatile work house is important.
Minmatar has a lot of good ships too, but I feel the Gallente BS lineup is better than the Minmatar lineup.
Gallente recons are just about the only gallente ships that are bad.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.29 03:01:00 -
[48]
Originally by: lecrotta
Your ideas and thoughts about gallente fits and weapons are outdated and wrong as they have awful range, barely better dps and huge cap issues if they actually fit there high dps guns in the first place.
At highest tier close range dps guns you got about 15% more damage and about 1/2-1/3 of cap usage in comparison to lasers. I think these are very fine stats for the lack of range. I don't play Gallente at all so i perhaps missed some stuff in practice...but i've seen megathrons with single medium cap boosters that could manage their cap very well. Try this with an abaddon.So "huge cap issues" because of guns at gallente can't be an argument.
If gallente ships need a permanent running heavy cap booster just to run a full rack of guns, then we can talk about a damage buff or range buff again.
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Msgerbs
Gallente White Moon Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.29 04:01:00 -
[49]
Originally by: 128th ABC123 I have one fully Gallente skilled pvp character and yes some of the nerfs hit home hard, but the only ships really hurt where the droneboats and the recons. My second account has one 20 mil sp caldari character so I think I can make the comparison in an objective way.
Eos (no more 5x heavy drones and less turretslots) Domi (Nos nerf) Myrmidon (no more 5x heavy drones and less slots) Gallente Recons.. (sensor damp worthless) <-- need some serious loving...
Bolded text says it all. Droneboats are supposed to be gallente's specialty.
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Taguchi Hiroko
Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.30 16:17:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Taguchi Hiroko on 30/04/2008 16:18:25 Gallente is not the best. I dunno what people are talking about when they say "best". There is no "best" ship or "best" race in this game, or else everyone would fly it.
There are a few broken ships in Gallente. Eris for example, what is it supposed to do besides dropping probes and die? missles? turrents? Look at the Sabre, that's a killing machine.
post nerf Gallente recons are expensive useless EW ships that are essentially glorified covert ops- you can put 4 damps on some bs and still get shot at in 30k, boom! Whilest a falcon will have it perma jammed all day with just 3 ECM's.
And the myrm? nice tank, but the dps of a Vexor. You might as well fly a Vexor (or a Domi). There is no reason to fly Myrmidon.
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Taguchi Hiroko
Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.30 16:34:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Slade Hoo
Originally by: lecrotta
Although i do think gallente need a range or dmg boost as they are now way behind in range of other close range dmg ships but only have a tiny dps bonus by comparison, if any at all in some cases.
which other close range dmg ships you mean? don't know many ships that are MWDing to 0m distance to engage except for Gallente.
Zealot. And Zealot > Deimos anytime, pre and post patch.
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Altaica Amur
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:00:00 -
[52]
I do think that the Gallente need to get fixed up in a few areas, primarily those where they were directly nerfed, myrm, damp-boats... that sort of thing, but I think some people's idea of 'fair' is a bit out of whack, specifically when considering snipers. Gallente are not primarily a long ranged race, indeed they specialize in close range combat, just as Caldari does long range and Amaar mid-range and my best guess for Minmatar is mixed ranges. Either way just based off their racial tendencies they should have the weakest sniper, not incompetent mind you but still not the best or even second best, which is what the megathron was for ages and only the Rokh and new Apoc have managed to change that any, which still leaves Minmatar behind the Gallente when it comes to snipers and that by a larger distance then the disadvantage the megathron is at, it's damage bonus and tracking bonus going a long way to offsetting it's range disadvantage. Every race has it's strengths and weaknesses and at the end of the day someone has to have the worst ship for x purpose and someone has to have the best ship for y purpose, failing to acknowledge this means we might as well scrap the races and just mash them all together.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.05.01 17:32:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko
Zealot. And Zealot > Deimos anytime, pre and post patch.
ultra close range Zealot fittings like this one is like Beagle or Blaster rokh. They aren't indended to do this kind of stuff. Zealot along with Cerberus excels at 40km "sniping" with high tracking. Point blank dmg is a nono on amarr ships. Pulses have the best optimal and worst tracking. Its a waste of guns and bonusses to use a Zealot like this (ever compared tracking between Blasters and Pulse lasers?). I know a lot of people fit it like a deimos to imitate blaster boats...but an imitate is alway worse than the original. I can only repeat that i don't fly gallente ships myself...but along with my personal pvp experience and calculating stuff in EFT i still see blaster boats as gods in point blank damage (highest damage, awesome tracking compares to range). I'd use a Zealot for 40km distance fights to shoot nanos and sub-BS ships with "lower" damage and i'd use Deimos for a lot of higher point blank damage. Maybe its just because i lack experience in personally flying blaster ships...but every ship has its role and excels at it. Still can't see any reason for balancing but i whould really be happy to see the arguments you all made on TQ to underline your statements. At the actual situation..i can't do this.
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sliver 0xD
exiles.
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Posted - 2008.05.02 07:26:00 -
[54]
Edited by: sliver 0xD on 02/05/2008 07:29:49
Originally by: 128th ABC123
Its comparing apples and pears.
there both frutes!
iam not realy a boost this boost that kinda guy but i do see my favo ships get nerfed.
its not realy about witch race is best. i take the best ships of every race and combinde those. basicly if a ship gets nerfed i dump it. just adapt to the new game rules.
for instance caldari is tha CRAP race for me :) ive trained up gallente for its awsomeness. tho i can not deney the latest big nerfes in gallante ships. for instance the drone nerf to eos and myrmidon and the damp nerf vs the ecm boost that real hurts.
i gues every ship of every race has its uses. and if its changed you have to adapt. i gues its easyer if you are a older player. i can understand how new players see the nerfs as bad. they spend all there time on the best skills and then bam gone best skills.
curently iam training caldari cruiser lvl5. becouse the ecm on those kinda wins a batle. hope that doesnt get nerfed next month :) but as useual it will :) |
Akane Miyamoto
The Illuminati. Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.05.02 07:37:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Akane Miyamoto on 02/05/2008 07:38:55
Originally by: 128th ABC123 Eos (no more 5x heavy drones and less turretslots) Domi (Nos nerf) Myrmidon (no more 5x heavy drones and less slots) Gallente Recons.. (sensor damp worthless) <-- need some serious loving...
The Eos needed to be bought back in line with other link commands. Sure it stung but it was needed. It still tanks like a *****.
Myrmidon is balanced in comparison to other tier twos now. It was more powerful than the eos pre-nerf.
Domi is just fine, stop crying about the nos nerf and adapt with neuts and blasters already.
And yes, the gallente recons do need some love. They really do. |
joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.05.03 11:07:00 -
[56]
Yeah i thinks blasters need some loving.
Atm all our "gallente uber dps" needs to be under 10k.
If your in a bs it takes a while to get there and the target is all ready dead. If you use null you get less dps than a torp raven, very bad tracking , and t1 lasers just outclass you anyway.
Zealot just owns deimos in every single situation just because it can hit out so damn far so damn hard so by the time deimos would of got into effective range in any fight zealot would of been much more effective overall.
Blasters need more range OR much higher dps.
They used to be king of damage, but with the laser buff and the torp buff (say auto cannon buff with the explosive resis nerf) all the other races can achieve near the same dps up to 30k.
And btw im gallente and i am cross training. 25 days on t2 large blasters was my biggest waste of time in eve ever, (Especially on mega cause i had to buy cpu implants to keep the same amount of guns). |
Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.05.03 11:52:00 -
[57]
The hell with range , give me moar damage
Damage rigs suck because of stacking penalties. Change damage mods to RoF only bonus , so that damage rigs are actually worth the powergrid penalty. It's not like it's unbalanced , megas are primaried often enough even now , using a subpar tank on a rigged ship that always fights in web range is taking a big risk.
If nanoships can fill their lows & rig slots with little stacking penalties , why shouldn't we ? |
chiefyuk
Amarr Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers
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Posted - 2008.05.03 16:05:00 -
[58]
Does the OP make this up? |
Wu Jiun
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.03 16:25:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Wu Jiun on 03/05/2008 16:27:02
Originally by: joshmorris
They used to be king of damage, but with the laser buff and the torp buff (say auto cannon buff with the explosive resis nerf) all the other races can achieve near the same dps up to 30k.
Torp buff - i'll give you that one.
Laser buff? Dmg mod and rof of lasers hasn't changed for a long time and thus the dps numbers didn't either. It works better now against eanm tanks but blaster will still deal far superior dps here. against targets that focus against exp/kin/therm damage em can be a perfect choice now - well what would you expect if people set their ships up against acs/blaster boats specifically? and why do they do that?
an electron blaster (lowest tier) cannon does more dps than the mega pulse laser(highest tier). add to that the fact that pulses cost double the cap and are harder to fit and have worse tracking(. you won't fit a decent geddon without cpu imp either its standard for high end fittings. you do realize that neither amarr nor caldari ships are made to accomodate for an mwd? we need the range because we either can't close up anyway or we need to downgrade weapons to be able to that thus loosing even more dps.
autocannon buff - thats just lol. what an idiot uses barrage or hail to shoot at a shield tank? you could use emp but even then explosive damage is only a part of it and its still not the optimal choice in most cases. not even going to talk about how gimped emp dps is versus antimatter/mf in raw terms anyway.
the only ship that can actually do blaster like dps up to 30km is the raven. neither amarr ships nor minmatar can do this so please stop being alarmist. |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.05.03 18:03:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
the only ship that can actually do blaster like dps up to 30km is the raven. neither amarr ships nor minmatar can do this so please stop being alarmist.
Well.
Current damage output (maxed skills, faction short-range ammo / long-range T2 ammo, largest possible drones), trimarks/core extenders, overloaded damage in parenthesis:
Torp Raven, 3*BCU, 2*dual 180mm AC2 w/barrage: 1158 (1325) dps @30km + 53 dps from ACs, 907 (1030) dps @45km, 87.5k EHP (has TP and full tackle, more EHP if that is not necessary); max speed 1013 m/s.
MP Armageddon, 3*HS: 1172 (1300) dps @ 15+10km, 998 (1101) dps @ 45+10km, 108k EHP (lacks web or scram or cap booster); max speed 969 m/s (cap stable without MWD until boosters run out).
Neutron Megathron, 2*MFS: 1148 (1273) dps @ 4.5+13km, 980 (1079) dps @ 11+16km, 115k EHP; max speed 1008m/s (cap stable without MWD until boosters run out).
MP Abaddon, 3*HS: 1126 (1263) dps @ 15+10km, 940 (1050) dps @ 45+10km, 137k EHP; max speed 821 m/s (cap stable without MWD until boosters run out)
Torp / dual 650mm Typhoon, 2*BCU: 1111 (1245) dps @ short-range ammo, 932 (1035) dps @ long-range ammo; 108k EHP (has TP); max speed 1227 m/s.
Please note that both Raven and Armageddon outdamage the Megathron with greatly better range. The Raven is the glaring problem, yes, but IMO Megathron would need something extra even if Raven was removed from the game tomorrow. |
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