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Capacitor Rigs a short lesson

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Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:15:00 - [1] CCC's = Poor Choice Seemiconductor Memory Cell I = the correct fitting to use Why i hear you ask.. I have a ship with 1000uF which recharges in 100secs UnRigged you have 1000uF and 1000uF/100s=10uF/s recharge rate. with 1 CCCI you have 1000uF which recharges in (100s/1.15) 85s so 1000uF/85s= 11.5uF/s with 1 Semiconductor Memory Cell I you have (1000uFx1.15) 1150uF which recharges in 100s so 1150uF/100s= 11.5uF/s so as you can see not only do you get the same recharge rate using a SemiConductor as you would using a CCC but you also get 15% extra capacity to boot. hope this will educate a few atleast, those who don't understand maths flame away
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:20:00 - [2] Same reason why at a certain point cap batteries become a better choice than cap rechargers/relays. Indeed, many pilots don't seem to grasp this concept which is so very proven in the similar field of passive shield tanking.
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:23:00 - [3] Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 21/04/2008 13:23:29 Originally by: Midas Man CCC's = Poor Choice Seemiconductor Memory Cell I = the correct fitting to use hope this will educate a few atleast, those who don't understand maths flame away OMG! Revelation! My eyes see the truth now! Seriously, this is a well known fact for anyone with EFT and basic understanding of EVE stats. The fact that CCCs are used more often is purely because they are cheaper. Less materials needed to produce them. CCCs usually suffice.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:33:00 - [4] Now if you used correct math, then maybe you would have arrived at more balanced conclusion. Fact 1: -15% recharge time doesn't mean 100/1.15. It means 100x0.85. Which means you end up at a recharge time of 85s. Bad math, but so far you're decently correct. However 1000/85 = 11.7. A difference which is increased by the non-linear recharge rate of the capacitor. Not that Semiconductor Memory Cells don't have their advantages, but if you're just after the highest sustainable amount of cap, then CCCs are better then SMCs. And on top of that there is the matter of price. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:35:00 - [5] It appears that the peak recharge of a larger cap amount is slightly lower than that of a faster recharging one. The same goes for shields. When recharge is all you need, it appears that recharge mods are the way to go. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Lt Angus Caldari Wicked Crew	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:36:00 - [6] Edited by: Lt Angus on 21/04/2008 13:36:37 Originally by: Midas Man CCC's = Poor Choice Seemiconductor Memory Cell I = the correct fitting to use Why i hear you ask.. I have a ship with 1000uF which recharges in 100secs UnRigged you have 1000uF and 1000uF/100s=10uF/s recharge rate. with 1 CCCI you have 1000uF which recharges in (100s/1.15) 85s so 1000uF/85s= 11.5uF/s with 1 Semiconductor Memory Cell I you have (1000uFx1.15) 1150uF which recharges in 100s so 1150uF/100s= 11.5uF/s so as you can see not only do you get the same recharge rate using a SemiConductor as you would using a CCC but you also get 15% extra capacity to boot. hope this will educate a few atleast, those who don't understand maths flame away thats not how cap works, its a curve and CCC gets a better peak recharge CCC= best for a perma setup Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Midas Man UnRigged you have 1000uF and 1000uF/100s=10uF/s recharge rate. Wait... Its been some time since I had my electronics classes, but isn't 1 farad = 1 volt x 1 second, and in this case is meant to measure capacitance which is the charge ammount possible on a capacitor?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:42:00 - [8] Op is wrong, SMC give 15% increase in recharge, CCC's give 17.6%. Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:47:00 - [9] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/04/2008 13:47:30 Originally by: Midas Man with 1 CCCI you have 1000uF which recharges in (100s/1.15) 85s so 1000uF/85s= 11.5uF/s Incorrect. It recharges 11.76470 and not 11.5. Put your own sum into a calculator. 1000/85 = 11.76 Therefore your entire post fails -- Billion Isk Mission
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:49:00 - [10] CCCs = better for substainable Setups. SMCs = better for buffer Setups yust my 2 Cents. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.

Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:55:00 - [11] hehe flame taken, teach me to reach for the calculator and not guestamate. Also fair point about the no linear curve. but if both curves for CCC's and Semi's were on a graph you would see Semi's don't have a peak as high but they do hold closer to there peak cap rate for longer. Peak is around 30-35% IIRC so a CCC peaks slightly higher between 300-350uF (Using the above 1000uF ship) and a Semi peaks abit lower but between 345-402.5uF The Peak is a set point which (as corrected above) is higher for the CCC but the rate will fall off much quicker either side compared with the Semi. So if you slip lower than the 30% peak cap a CCC fitted ship will run out of cap quicker than the Semi fitted ship Also before hitting peak with CCC you need to use up ~700 cap (+ whatever recharged in that time) but with the semi you will need to use up ~805 cap ( + more recharge than the CCC because it will take longer) I just cannot see how a very small amount of extra peak recharge can outway the extra 15% Capacity. The cost I can see being an issue with some people but its like ~30mil compared to ~15mil so its not major amounts of cash.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Midas Man hehe flame taken, teach me to reach for the calculator and not guestamate. Also fair point about the no linear curve. but if both curves for CCC's and Semi's were on a graph you would see Semi's don't have a peak as high but they do hold closer to there peak cap rate for longer. Peak is around 30-35% IIRC so a CCC peaks slightly higher between 300-350uF (Using the above 1000uF ship) and a Semi peaks abit lower but between 345-402.5uF The Peak is a set point which (as corrected above) is higher for the CCC but the rate will fall off much quicker either side compared with the Semi. So if you slip lower than the 30% peak cap a CCC fitted ship will run out of cap quicker than the Semi fitted ship Also before hitting peak with CCC you need to use up ~700 cap (+ whatever recharged in that time) but with the semi you will need to use up ~805 cap ( + more recharge than the CCC because it will take longer) I just cannot see how a very small amount of extra peak recharge can outway the extra 15% Capacity. The cost I can see being an issue with some people but its like ~30mil compared to ~15mil so its not major amounts of cash. When you have a shieldbooster consuming 2400 cap every 10 seconds, smartbombs, hardeners and 2 capital shield transporters sucking 300 cap/s each with a total cap (after imps) of 83.6k, you'll see why total cap doesn't matter as much as peak recharge. Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Sokratesz When you have a shieldbooster consuming 2400 cap every 10 seconds, smartbombs, hardeners and 2 capital shield transporters sucking 300 cap/s each with a total cap (after imps) of 83.6k, you'll see why total cap doesn't matter as much as peak recharge. Well, on a capital ship (thanks to the jump mechanic and lack of capital neutralizers) the whole equation is hopelessly skewed in favor of the CCC. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:23:00 - [14] Edited by: Midas Man on 21/04/2008 14:25:05 Edited by: Midas Man on 21/04/2008 14:24:11 Originally by: Sokratesz When you have a shieldbooster consuming 2400 cap every 10 seconds, smartbombs, hardeners and 2 capital shield transporters sucking 300 cap/s each with a total cap (after imps) of 83.6k, you'll see why total cap doesn't matter as much as peak recharge. possibly in a Capital ship with 83.6k an extra 0.26% cap recharge might help out, dunno don't know your recharge time. Never flown a capital ship so not got involved in working out fittings. Taking a Rokh as an example base cap 6000 recharge time 1250. recharge time 4.8 (IIRC peak is about 3x this) peak is 14.4 peak recharge rate. Semi gives 6900 cap, recharge in 1250 Peak is (6900/1250)3 = 16.56 CCC gives 6000 cap, recharge in 1062.5 Peak is (6000/1062.5)3 = 16.94 so we get an extra 0.38 cap every second at peak using a CCC this im sure you can see is negligable it would take ~40 min to recharge the extra 900 cap you get from a Semi. assuming you stay at peak for the full 40 mins. editted to stop my post looking like a quote lol
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:27:00 - [15] Semi = Cap Battery in rig form CCC = Cap recharger in rig form. People use Semi because they cannot do maths, or because they expect to be neuted or have a situation where total cap matter more than recharge. Thats it folks. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Midas Man Edited by: Midas Man on 21/04/2008 14:25:05 Edited by: Midas Man on 21/04/2008 14:24:11 Originally by: Sokratesz When you have a shieldbooster consuming 2400 cap every 10 seconds, smartbombs, hardeners and 2 capital shield transporters sucking 300 cap/s each with a total cap (after imps) of 83.6k, you'll see why total cap doesn't matter as much as peak recharge. possibly in a Capital ship with 83.6k an extra 0.26% cap recharge might help out, dunno don't know your recharge time. Never flown a capital ship so not got involved in working out fittings. Taking a Rokh as an example base cap 6000 recharge time 1250. recharge time 4.8 (IIRC peak is about 3x this) peak is 14.4 peak recharge rate. Semi gives 6900 cap, recharge in 1250 Peak is (6900/1250)3 = 16.56 CCC gives 6000 cap, recharge in 1062.5 Peak is (6000/1062.5)3 = 16.94 so we get an extra 0.38 cap every second at peak using a CCC this im sure you can see is negligable it would take ~40 min to recharge the extra 900 cap you get from a Semi. assuming you stay at peak for the full 40 mins. editted to stop my post looking like a quote lol Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. -- Billion Isk Mission
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:38:00 - [17] Originally by: Lord WarATron Semi = Cap Battery in rig form CCC = Cap recharger in rig form. People use Semi because they cannot do maths, or because they expect to be neuted or have a situation where total cap matter more than recharge. Thats it folks. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. People use CCC because they don't realise that a Semi gives them virtually the same increase in Recharge ASWELL as a more capacity. Thats it folks LordWarATron knows all look at the evidence he has to prove his arguement
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:40:00 - [18] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/04/2008 14:41:39 Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Lord WarATron Semi = Cap Battery in rig form CCC = Cap recharger in rig form. People use Semi because they cannot do maths, or because they expect to be neuted or have a situation where total cap matter more than recharge. Thats it folks. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. People use CCC because they don't realise that a Semi gives them virtually the same increase in Recharge ASWELL as a more capacity. Thats it folks LordWarATron knows all look at the evidence he has to prove his arguement You need a 8% Cap implant for a 3 x Semi user to beat a 3 x CCC user. I did not know 8% is "almost the same". My evidence is baised on fact rather than made up assumptions. -- Billion Isk Mission
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/04/2008 14:37:13 Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. And where did these figures come from. hmm hold on I have a counter aguement Rokh + 3 x CCC = 25cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 45cap/sec so obviously CCC's are gimped or did i just make those numbers up (sarcasm for those who couldn't tell)
Lalita Prestoc	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Lord WarATron Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. Well remember you have to consider the cap increase: Rokh + 3x CCC: 7500 Cap, +32.6 cap/s @ peak. Rokh + 3x SMC: 11407 Cap, +30.4 cap/s @ peak. Takes that extra 2.2 cap/s a while to replace 3907 cap.

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/04/2008 14:37:13 Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. And where did these figures come from. hmm hold on I have a counter aguement Rokh + 3 x CCC = 25cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 45cap/sec so obviously CCC's are gimped or did i just make those numbers up (sarcasm for those who couldn't tell) Midas Man, you are just digging a bigger hole for yourself. Every single post in this thread about teaching CCC users a "Lesson" ended up without yourself making simple mistakes. Please argue vs facts. I have given you real numbers and not made up ones. Work forward from there please. -- Billion Isk Mission
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:46:00 - [22] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Originally by: Lord WarATron Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. Well remember you have to consider the cap increase: Rokh + 3x CCC: 7500 Cap, +32.6 cap/s @ peak. Rokh + 3x SMC: 11407 Cap, +30.4 cap/s @ peak. Takes that extra 2.2 cap/s a while to replace 3907 cap. ^^ This approximatly 30 mins assuming you stay at peak
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Originally by: Lord WarATron Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. Well remember you have to consider the cap increase: Rokh + 3x CCC: 7500 Cap, +32.6 cap/s @ peak. Rokh + 3x SMC: 11407 Cap, +30.4 cap/s @ peak. Takes that extra 2.2 cap/s a while to replace 3907 cap. Cap Amount is irrelevant for the things more people use CCC's for. Where it is relevant, people use Semi's insted. E.G Semi's with a cap booster makes sense for pvp. But for PvE permatanks, its not better than CCC, which was the OP got wrong. -- Billion Isk Mission
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Originally by: Lord WarATron Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. Well remember you have to consider the cap increase: Rokh + 3x CCC: 7500 Cap, +32.6 cap/s @ peak. Rokh + 3x SMC: 11407 Cap, +30.4 cap/s @ peak. Takes that extra 2.2 cap/s a while to replace 3907 cap. Cap Amount is irrelevant for the things more people use CCC's for. Where it is relevant, people use Semi's insted. E.G Semi's with a cap booster makes sense for pvp. But for PvE permatanks, its not better than CCC, which was the OP got wrong. LOLz where did i mention Perma tank in the OP, I simply stated Semi's were better than CCC's because you get a 15% inc to recharge and a 15% increase to Capacity Vs a CCC which only gives an increase to Recharge. It has been discussed and we can see the extra recharge gained from a CCC is negligable on all but a Capital ship maybe. Please explain how 2.2 cap/s is so important on a permatank BS unless you nees to off set that Shield hardener Oh wait they take 4 cap/s damn we are screwed even with the CCC
Ciryadin FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:01:00 - [25] Jeez, if you just run it through EFT. Even at basic 0 skills, just put a rokh with 3xCCC and 3xSMC Basic Rokh (0 skills) + 3x CCC 7200 Cap at 19.5/peak Basic Rokh (0 skills) + 3x SMC 9125 Cap at 18.3/peak =============================== Basic Rokh (max skills) + 3x CCC I 8750 Cap at 32.6/peak Basic Rokh (max skills) + 3x CCC II 8750 Cap at 39.1/peak Basic Rokh (max skills) + 3x CCC II + 6x Large Cap Bat II 12750 Cap at 66.4/peak Basic Rokh (max skills) + 3x SMC I 11407 Cap at 30.4/peak Basic Rokh (max skills) + 3x SMC II 12960 Cap at 34.6/peak Basic Rokh (max skills) + 3x SMC II + 6x Large Cap Bat II 22032 Cap at 58.8/peak Point being, anyway you turn it. CCC > SMC
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Midas Man ^^ This approximatly 30 mins assuming you stay at peak Not really, the 3 x CCC user will always be recharging just under 8% faster than the 3 x semi user for as long as he is in the ship regardless of cap levels. If his objective is faster recharge, he uses CCC rigs. If he is a pvp pilot and has a cap booster, then Semi's are better because he has a bigger cap buffer in case of neuts before he needs to rely upon the booster. The mistake you made was assume that Semi's are better than CCC in all situations. Unfortunetly you are proven wrong. PvE permatanks rely on cap, and that is why most players use CCC for pve. It is not because they are stupid, it is because you assumed that just because something is more expensive. Capital ships rely on a certain cap percentage, and if 3 x CCC rigs help them get there just under 8% faster than Semi's, then thats what they do. It is every week that we get someone trying to reinvent the wheel. Just ask youself why people use CCC rigs in permatanks and not semi's? -- Billion Isk Mission
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Lord WarATron Cap Amount is irrelevant for the things more people use CCC's for. Where it is relevant, people use Semi's insted. E.G Semi's with a cap booster makes sense for pvp. It also makes a perfect sense for a PvE with a cap booster I'd say vice versa: CCC are only usefull if you need permarunning setup (for whatever reason), otherwise go for SMC. ---
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:22:00 - [28] so SCM are better in most situations. The only time I think a CCC is useful is for capitals needing to get to a set % to jump. A situation I was ignorant of due to not using them. If someone is fitting for permatank in a BS then they have bigger problems if they require an extra 2.2cap/sec to make the permatank tight come on what is that negligable amount going to run? And then my assuption of cost is valid as the only reason to go for a CCC over a SCM is price.
Hardtail Red Dawn Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:46:00 - [29] You guys are being far too nice. the op is an arrogant,presumptious fool who refuses to admit that he's wrong -_-'. If i want to afk mission run in a raven, i'll want a perma run setup. and yes. it WILL be in its peak recharge. for as long as i keep all my modules activated : ) why? because the cap balances out at 31%. note that this wouldnt work with your SMC's. This is nothing new. You're not telling us anything we dont know. CCC's give higher recharge, SMC's larger buffer. where are you educating us again, besides teaching us you'll argue the same point pointlessly for 20ish posts?
Everyone Dies Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Everyone Dies on 21/04/2008 16:02:56 You have no idea. Everyone buys CCCs for a reason. CCC > SMC 99.9% of the time



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