EVE Search - How is BACON different from Voice Chat?

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

How is BACON different from Voice Chat?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Trix Rabbit Gallente Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:22:00 - [1] The title asks the question. Seriously though there are more similarities between the two then differences when speaking of strategic importance. Anyone can use both voice chat and/or BACON. A large advantage is given to those that use voice chat compared to those that don't. And certainly an advantage is given to those that use BACON compared to those that don't. Until EVE Voice, voice chat could only be run through a third party program. And there are certainly quite a few people that would still say voice chat can only be run through a third party program since EVE Voice is not that great. Likewise BACON requires a third party program. The only thing BACON does is beep when someone is in local. But voice chat allows fleets of any size supported by game mechanics and server structure to respond near instantly to complex instructions. My response to BACON seems quite clear, adapt or die. For the record I haven't configured BACON yet but I plan to when I have some time.
Asestorian Domination. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:26:00 - [2] I think the main difference is that voice comms requires a human to do the work and report things themselves. --- Quote: Welcome to EVE, a PvP game where people are - shockingly - allowed to PvP as much as they like.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:26:00 - [3] So you think the people giving you intel are robots? ...
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:27:00 - [4] Bacon, when setup correctly, is infallible. Voice chat isn't. Also voice chat is teamwork, which is part of GAMES like EVE. Macros like Bacon aren't. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:28:00 - [5] I'm at a loss wether this recent outbreak of extreme stupidity on the forums is a result of lots of new players joining or lots of old players getting hit in the head. Might be a combination of the two I guess. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Radcjk Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:30:00 - [6] Another Bacon thread, well done.
Trix Rabbit Gallente Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:30:00 - [7] The only thing BACON does is beep. YOU the human are still required to take some action.
Asestorian Domination. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:33:00 - [8] Yes, but being given instructions on Teamspeak still requires you to take action yourself. The thing is here is that those instructions, or that intel, could be wrong or late or any other thing like that. BACON, however, cannot be wrong, and it probably has a hard time being late. --- Quote: Welcome to EVE, a PvP game where people are - shockingly - allowed to PvP as much as they like.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Trix Rabbit The only thing BACON does is beep. YOU the human are still required to take some action. Are you really not understanding the problems that this program unleashes, or are you just trolling? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Trix Rabbit Gallente Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Trix Rabbit The only thing BACON does is beep. YOU the human are still required to take some action. Are you really not understanding the problems that this program unleashes, or are you just trolling? This is honestly not a troll. I have read quite a few arguments against BACON but they all seem fundamentally flawed to me. For one thing, this program in one form or another has been around for quite some time in the major alliances. So really there are no problems that BACON has created because any problems that might exist have already existed. The two main complaints I have heard about BACON are as follows: 1) it takes responsibility for the pilots safety out of their hands and places it in a third party application, 2) MACRO miners/missioners will incorporate BACON into future MACROs which will allow them to evade people hunting them much more easily then currently. Both of these arguments are flawed for the following reasons. 1) Voice Chat can take the responsibility for a pilots safety out of their hands just as easily. Yes you can have bad intelligence but you can also have good intelligence. The fact that sometimes its bad doesn't mean that the rest of the time there is some advantage being imparted that the other side might not have. So any argument that BACON is unfair seems pretty weak to me. 2) The idea that MACROs will eventually incorporate a BACON like device is also not a means to discourage the use of BACON. Everyone knows that MACROs use currier missions to make money. Should we then remove currier missions from the game? Just because some people can use a tool or a part of EVE to violate the EULA and mess up the game for others doesn't mean we should remove that tool or that part of EVE.
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:48:00 - [11] And it's already been mentioned: Voice chat promotes TEAMWORK, while bacon rewards an afk style gameplay /thread _____________________________________________________________________________
Trix Rabbit Gallente Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:54:00 - [12] Originally by: DroneBay Diva And it's already been mentioned: Voice chat promotes TEAMWORK, while bacon rewards an afk style gameplay /thread Are you saying there are no means in which BACON could be used to promote teamwork? And likewise there are no means in which Voice Chat could be used to promote AFK style gameplay? Because I can think of several. I fly pvp on this character. I don't know if its even possible to engage in PvP while AFK. I'm pretty sure if you tried it you would die very quickly. Here's how I imagine using BACON: Folks I'm flying with are in various systems in high sec with many dozens of players in each system. We are all looking for war targets. War targets tend to want to hide from us. We are all also in corp chat since we are getting updates from each other. There are only so many things you can concentrate on at once so a war target can slip through while you are looking at something else. If BACON is up you can hear the beep, tell your corp mates and close in on the War Target. Likewise you can play afk style with Voice Chat. You can go mine, gate camp, whatever and just have voice chat up while you are actually reading a book, watching tv, whatever. When the other 10+ people in your fleet start talking in voice chat you know something is up and come back. Those seem like 2 very basic situations to me.
Faife Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:54:00 - [13] OP, you're right, it's not. People are having a mob moment. ôIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.ö
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Trix Rabbit This is honestly not a troll. I have read quite a few arguments against BACON but they all seem fundamentally flawed to me. For one thing, this program in one form or another has been around for quite some time in the major alliances. So really there are no problems that BACON has created because any problems that might exist have already existed. This is something that I have heard also, but I'm not sure I believe it. I have been a part of several major alliances with my various accounts, but I have never EVER heard anything about this. If it IS true that alliances are using this it's a pretty ***** big issue. One that should lead to lots of bans in the future. Originally by:** Trix Rabbit The two main complaints I have heard about BACON are as follows: 1) it takes responsibility for the pilots safety out of their hands and places it in a third party application, 2) MACRO miners/missioners will incorporate BACON into future MACROs which will allow them to evade people hunting them much more easily then currently. 3) It promotes AFK game play 4) It rewards lazy/stupid players 5) It automates a social process 6) It grants major alliances almost complete control of their space 7) It grants farmers virtual immunity. Originally by: Trix Rabbit Both of these arguments are flawed for the following reasons. 1) Voice Chat can take the responsibility for a pilots safety out of their hands just as easily. Yes you can have bad intelligence but you can also have good intelligence. The fact that sometimes its bad doesn't mean that the rest of the time there is some advantage being imparted that the other side might not have. So any argument that BACON is unfair seems pretty weak to me. Well, for a start, for voice chat you have to rely on team work. There are people out there actually scouting. This is what is suppose to happen. That is how you secure space. Active patrolling. Furthermore, hostiles are often missed completely or at least miscounted, leading to a situation favorable to the small roaming gang. BACON will destroy the small gang pvp that we are all looking for, in favor of Blob vs Blob pvp. In short, this makes actual intel gathering redundant. It's threatening to destroy a play style. I mean, can you really support something like this? Originally by: Trix Rabbit 2) The idea that MACROs will eventually incorporate a BACON like device is also not a means to discourage the use of BACON. Everyone knows that MACROs use currier missions to make money. Should we then remove currier missions from the game? Just because some people can use a tool or a part of EVE to violate the EULA and mess up the game for others doesn't mean we should remove that tool or that part of EVE. The difference is pretty clear to me. Courier missions are coded in to the game by CCP. BACON is a third party app which takes advantage of information leaks in the game to create advantages for players who abuse it. Speaking of Macros, which are clear violations of the rules, BACON is pretty close to what we can consider a Macro. It automatizes processes that should be performed by players. The only difference is that it doesn't move your ship, but if CCP should allow this program, the can of worms is open and Macros will soon find their way into our daily gameplay. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Trix Rabbit The title asks the question. The same way that a Car Alarm is better than having someone look at a car all day. That is why Bacon is defeating the whole point risk in 0.0, turning 0.0 into high sec style safely. -- Billion Isk Mission
Schani Kratnorr x13	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:56:00 - [16] [QUOTE] The title asks the question. Seriously though there are more similarities between the two then differences when speaking of strategic importance. [/QUOTE] #1 Teamspeak, Ventrilo, EVE voice requires a person to actually look at local, and alert their friends. Log monitoring software like pigmeat automates that process. #2 TS/VT/Voice positively affects interaction, and enriches the social element of playing with, and against other living people. Applications like Fried Outer Skin Of Mammal-software does not. Although I guess it could if you hooked it up to TS
Trix Rabbit Gallente Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:11:00 - [17] Ki An: Your arguments seem to rely almost exclusively on the concept of human error. Essentially you are saying that because humans can mess up and report the wrong thing, having something that won't make that mistake is a game breaking addition. This is not something I can argue against because my beliefs are based upon the same factual information only a different interpretation. I simply do not believe people are wrong as often as you seem to think they are. I believe that large alliances without a BACON like program can already gather enough intelligence that any human error involved in missing a fleet of war targets (small gang or otherwise) is negligible at best. For BACON to work you still need people in systems waiting for enemies. You still need them to be aware enough to report immediately what they are seeing. Simply saying "War Target" is not going to be enough, they are going to need to know where they are, what they are flying, and where they are going. A beep doesn't tell you that. Your argument that it grants MACROs virtual immunity is just wrong however. My definition of a MACRO is something that inputs into the game itself so the player doesn't have to take an action. This is not BACON which only reads output and then creates input outside of EVE (in the form of the beep). If someone is actually not playing their character at all but letting a MACRO fly the ship then a beep isn't going to save them. If they incorporate a BACON like tool into their MACRO then that is a bad thing but its still not BACON's fault anymore then someone who makes a bat is at fault if someone assaults another individual with that bat. Its the person that committed the assault that did the wrong.
Radcjk Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:13:00 - [18] Edited by: Radcjk on 21/04/2008 17:13:52 Edited by: Radcjk on 21/04/2008 17:13:18 Whats the point ? No matter a persons opinion argument, or point of view, no one is going to convince you otherwise of what you have already decided for yourself. Debates turn into fights on the net, and fights on the net are like the Special Olympics. The winner is still handicapped. In any game and MMO, theres always a handful of slackasses who need an advantage and find a way to cheat. Of course it isn't 'cheating' if it doesn't break the EULA, but then it comes down gray areas. In my opinion the difference is that a third party voice chat is merely another means of communication. If they didn't exist what so ever we'd just be party calling each others cell phones. Also, third party voice doesn't use ANY information from the game or server that hasn't been viewed by the pilot / player, in game, manually. That is a significant difference.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Trix Rabbit Ki An: Your arguments seem to rely almost exclusively on the concept of human error. Essentially you are saying that because humans can mess up and report the wrong thing, having something that won't make that mistake is a game breaking addition. Human error is the single biggest cause of ship loss in Eve. It's a skill based game where you have to be on your toes at all times, and if you mess up, you die. Bacon goes against all that, removing human fallability, or at least diminishing it gravely. Originally by: Trix Rabbit This is not something I can argue against because my beliefs are based upon the same factual information only a different interpretation. I simply do not believe people are wrong as often as you seem to think they are. I believe that large alliances without a BACON like program can already gather enough intelligence that any human error involved in missing a fleet of war targets (small gang or otherwise) is negligible at best. For BACON to work you still need people in systems waiting for enemies. You still need them to be aware enough to report immediately what they are seeing. Simply saying "War Target" is not going to be enough, they are going to need to know where they are, what they are flying, and where they are going. A beep doesn't tell you that. You where the one who said major alliances have been using this for a long time. Why do you think they bother using it if it is as you say? If the program doesn't grant any advantage, why use it at all? Your argument is based on a logical fallacy. Originally by: Trix Rabbit Your argument that it grants MACROs virtual immunity is just wrong however. My definition of a MACRO is something that inputs into the game itself so the player doesn't have to take an action. This is not BACON which only reads output and then creates input outside of EVE (in the form of the beep). If someone is actually not playing their character at all but letting a MACRO fly the ship then a beep isn't going to save them. If they incorporate a BACON like tool into their MACRO then that is a bad thing but its still not BACON's fault anymore then someone who makes a bat is at fault if someone assaults another individual with that bat. Its the person that committed the assault that did the wrong. How much imagination do you need to see how Bacon can be modded into a tool that auto-warps a ship away? This is the main problem I have with this program. Allow something like this, and the line is pushed. Next time it will be even worse. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:23:00 - [20] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 21/04/2008 17:25:40 Originally by: Trix Rabbit The only thing BACON does is beep. NO! It filters the data provided by "local" and presents only the data that is pertinent to the player, in real time. That is a change to existing game mechanics, facilitated by a third party program. It removes player responsibility. Voice software does nothing that isn't already possible in Eve. "BACON: Never be surprised again" Vigilance is the player's responsibility! Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP!
Trix Rabbit Gallente Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Ki An Human error is the single biggest cause of ship loss in Eve. It's a skill based game where you have to be on your toes at all times, and if you mess up, you die. Bacon goes against all that, removing human fallability, or at least diminishing it gravely. I agree human error gets people killed all the time. My issue is that when it comes to reporting on an enemy fleets position the difference between an alliance with BACON and one without is negligible at best. Originally by: Ki An You where the one who said major alliances have been using this for a long time. Why do you think they bother using it if it is as you say? If the program doesn't grant any advantage, why use it at all? Your argument is based on a logical fallacy. I was posing a hypothetical. I apologize if there was confusion on that part. Originally by: Ki An How much imagination do you need to see how Bacon can be modded into a tool that auto-warps a ship away? This is the main problem I have with this program. Allow something like this, and the line is pushed. Next time it will be even worse. How much imagination is required to see that a blunt object can be used to hurt someone? Again the issue is not whether a tool can be manipulated in such a way as to create a wrong but whether the tool itself is wrong. I hate MACROs and I would think it a great thing if CCP implemented a mechanic, or a warden program or anything that stopped them in their tracks. In the mean time I'm not going to say a new tool that IS NOT a MACRO is bad simply because people that are already violating the EULA can use it.
SlackerOGF Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:32:00 - [22] The public program plays a sound, what if a private version kicked in a 'warp to friendly pos' marco? It will not be long before someone exploits the log server for more deviant purposes.
Trix Rabbit Gallente Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 21/04/2008 17:25:40 Originally by: Trix Rabbit The only thing BACON does is beep. NO! It filters the data provided by "local" and presents only the data that is pertinent to the player, in real time. That is a change to existing game mechanics, facilitated by a third party program. It removes player responsibility. Voice software does nothing that isn't already possible in Eve. If you are going to go as far as to say that it filters local then I have to point out that the little red star next to a players name filters local as well. I can do a visual scan of local and pick up that little red star just fine. This program makes a beep. What it does is remove my visual scan of local and replaces it with that beep. A lot of folks seem to think this is a game breaking mechanic. My point of this thread is that someone saying on voice chat "war target" does the same thing is a program that says "beep." People have argued that voice chat promotes teamwork. Has anyone here ever had someone in their corp or alliance that wasn't much into teamwork? They flew around and worked with others but just didn't talk much. Is that person breaking the game? I mean if they treat voice chat like its BACON and only listen but never respond are they breaking the game? Cause I have to say if BACON beeps at you and breaks the game and the difference between the two is player interaction then logically any player that doesn't interact with voice chat is breaking the game.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:38:00 - [24] Originally by: Trix Rabbit I agree human error gets people killed all the time. My issue is that when it comes to reporting on an enemy fleets position the difference between an alliance with BACON and one without is negligible at best. And in the grand perspective, using a macro is no different than mining yourself. Both are moot points in this discussion. Originally by: Trix Rabbit I was posing a hypothetical. I apologize if there was confusion on that part. Then I'll ask you directly. Do you or do you not see an advantage to this program in a tactical situation? Originally by: Trix Rabbit How much imagination is required to see that a blunt object can be used to hurt someone? Again the issue is not whether a tool can be manipulated in such a way as to create a wrong but whether the tool itself is wrong. I hate MACROs and I would think it a great thing if CCP implemented a mechanic, or a warden program or anything that stopped them in their tracks. In the mean time I'm not going to say a new tool that IS NOT a MACRO is bad simply because people that are already violating the EULA can use it. But it's not simply about farmers using it. Haven't you been paying attention at all? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:39:00 - [25] Voice chat provides about 16 times the advantage BACON does. Bacon doesn't do anything a halfway alert pilot wouldn't/couldn't do already. Voice chat opens up shining new vistas of communication in the heat of battle.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Trix Rabbit A lot of folks seem to think this is a game breaking mechanic. My point of this thread is that someone saying on voice chat "war target" does the same thing is a program that says "beep." People have argued that voice chat promotes teamwork. Has anyone here ever had someone in their corp or alliance that wasn't much into teamwork? They flew around and worked with others but just didn't talk much. Is that person breaking the game? I mean if they treat voice chat like its BACON and only listen but never respond are they breaking the game? Cause I have to say if BACON beeps at you and breaks the game and the difference between the two is player interaction then logically any player that doesn't interact with voice chat is breaking the game. It seems to me that you don't really understand our concerns at all. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:49:00 - [27] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Trix Rabbit The only thing BACON does is beep. NO! It filters the data provided by "local" and presents only the data that is pertinent to the player, in real time. That is a change to existing game mechanics, facilitated by a third party program. It removes player responsibility. Voice software does nothing that isn't already possible in Eve. Originally by: Trix Rabbit If you are going to go as far as to say that it filters local then I have to point out that the little red star next to a players name filters local as well. The standings markers do NOT filter the data; they are part of the data. BACON filters the data. Originally by: Trix Rabbit I can do a visual scan of local and pick up that little red star just fine. Then why would anyone use BACON? Why would the creators advertise it with the slogan "Never be surprised again". The answer is that BACON removes the need for the player to actively scan the data provided by the game. Originally by: Trix Rabbit This program makes a beep. What it does is remove my visual scan of local and replaces it with that beep. I will assume you are not being obtuse when you state almost the precise problem but fail to recognise it. Yes. It is the visual scan of data and mental filtering of that data which BACON replaces with an immediate auditory indicator. If original game mechanics allowed one to create an overlay of local which automatically filters out superfluous information, and then audibly announces important information according to one's own pre-set indicators then BACON would do nothing additional. This is not the case. BACON substantially alters game mechanics. If it did not, it would be worthless. "BACON: Never be surprised again" Vigilance is the player's responsibility! Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP!
Orion Eridanus Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.04.21 18:00:00 - [28] Give it time, Once he can't find any of his targets because they are alerted to his presence by BACON and press alt tab to bring eve back up and then press ctrl-Q the OP will change his tune. Or maybe it'll be when all the low sec gates truly are camped because actually hunting targets is near impossible because of BACON's alarm. At least prior to BACON he might get a few kills from people not being alert, with BACON that goes out the window. It's not the kill, its the thrill of the chase. Shame there won't be a chase with BACON. Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.21 18:01:00 - [29] I don't much like BEACON but the point where the OP say that it is already used in a good number of alliances is right. I have read of similar programs in this forum at least 1 year ago. So the fuss is because what the program do or because it remove a advantage from some alliance?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.21 18:03:00 - [30] Originally by: Orion Eridanus Give it time, Once he can't find any of his targets because they are alerted to his presence by BACON and press alt tab to bring eve back up and then press ctrl-Q the OP will change his tune. Or maybe it'll be when all the low sec gates truly are camped because actually hunting targets is near impossible because of BACON's alarm. At least prior to BACON he might get a few kills from people not being alert, with BACON that goes out the window. It's not the kill, its the thrill of the chase. Shame there won't be a chase with BACON. Don't be naive for 90% of EVE PvP lovers it is because of the kill, the chase or a semi balanced fight is the last thing they want. The first to use it will be the pirates camping a gate, so they can be semi AFK while camping.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.