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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
   |
Posted - 2008.04.21 22:09:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 21/04/2008 22:14:20
 Originally by: James Lyrus
Unfortunately what the logserver does, is prints out all the information that the EVE client gets.
The information of ship/pilot, is therefore exposed, and can be read out the log. There is no way to fix this, aside from stopping the actual client getting that information.
Thats exactly what i ment with the nerf log file data. Ships are just ramdom numbers client side linked to the server side real info, to get that real info you have to scan it out.
...... continues overleaf. |
Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:11:00 -
[62]
The level of sophistry on these forums is just astounding.
--
When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Cori4n
Caldari
principle of motion
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:25:00 -
[63]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Unfortunately what the logserver does, is prints out all the information that the EVE client gets.
The information of ship/pilot, is therefore exposed, and can be read out the log. There is no way to fix this, aside from stopping the actual client getting that information.
This is not correct. The logserver only prints out certain data, there is a lot of stuff that is not logged. Your statement would be valid for a real live eula-violating macro, but not for a tool that uses the logserver. In fact, I doubt that the chat system is still awfully buggy, so CCP could remove all LSC messages from the logserver without much trouble.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:32:00 -
[64]
Again,personally I think BACON should and must be adopted by all players,especially those involved in PVP.
It does provide tactical possibilities for PVP
EveMag:Download Location 2
EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Trix Rabbit
Gallente
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:41:00 -
[65]
Ki An: Your argument to me now seems to consist entirely of the concept that I don't understand how anything works at all.
Assume for a moment that I do and respond to my arguments rationally.
You are focusing on the robot aspect of this program. So I will pose a hypothetical to you and I would like to hear your opinion on it.
An alliance wants to try and find War Targets that enter a system. They have a Voice Chat server but they don't want just anyone talking on it. To help with their search for Yarr! they force one of their corp mates to sit in the system of choice and constantly scan local. While technically possible to error in reporting War Targets this particular individual never has. They have been doing this duty for years and not once have they made a single mistake. When they see a War Target they press a button that creates a "beep" noise over their Voice Chat system. No one ever talks to this person and this person in turn never talks to anyone else. They just sit there and press a button to make a beep. Because they have been doing this for years the time it takes for them to send out the beep after a War Target enters local is slightly under half a second.
Now I ask you, is this corporation a bunch of cheaters who should be banned?
Yes the situation is extreme, but I wanted a hypothetical that would address the argument you have avoided. What is the difference between a corp that uses a person who does not error in reporting War Targets and a program that does not error in reporting war targets? I'll tell you: not everyone has a person that does not error. You say that this unbalances the game. I say it introduces something that is much harder for small corps to obtain then large corps. Accurate intelligence.
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Segge Bolled
Caldari
Dirty Sexy Pilots
New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:41:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
The only thing BACON does is beep. YOU the human are still required to take some action.
... yep. As far as I can tell, the only difference is that a user can be optionally reacting to an audio stimulus as opposed to the regular visual one.
Anyone who plays EVE with sound on might have noticed that noise it makes when you have auto-target-back turned on alerts you to your being locked (and your ship attempting to lock back as a result). If you're not looking at the screen, you'll still know someone has locked you. Audio cues are not new in EVE.
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
So you think the people giving you intel are robots?
Well, it depends heavily on the TS/Ventrilo server to be honest. Some of them can have really bad codecs, to the point that anyone could suspect Skynet is now reading their email.
The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign |
deathatlaby
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.22 05:37:00 -
[67]
Edited by: deathatlaby on 22/04/2008 05:39:03
Was not able to resist this:
- I am a programmer by profession. Lets say I take this Bacon, extend it - hook up a central server like vent, which will assimilate information from ALL its users to provide a region wide map in a client program, of who is where, <Which can be filtered using your regular blue/neut/red settings>, Would you be ****ed?
- Let me say I sell this as a service for ISK - would you be ****ed then?
- People continue to support this - and I might just end up doing this. I am actually thinking of a prototype where in I capture whoever is in The Forge region <or any other region with less number of systems>, Do you really want to try this one out? <Give me some support - and I will do it:)>
my problem with this BACON tool <and hence the extensions> is that it invalidates a bunch of things in game - like locator agents, actually playing the game instead of being AFK, Ice mining and so on. <Believe me - Ice product prices would be the first one to drop if this is not banned by ccp.>
Call it for what it is - its a macro. May be it doesn't alter the game state, but it does provide you an edge, a service for free which used to cost at one point. |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:03:00 -
[68]
Originally by: deathatlaby
Edited by: deathatlaby on 22/04/2008 05:39:03
Was not able to resist this:
- I am a programmer by profession. Lets say I take this Bacon, extend it - hook up a central server like vent, which will assimilate information from ALL its users to provide a region wide map in a client program, of who is where, <Which can be filtered using your regular blue/neut/red settings>, Would you be ****ed?
- Let me say I sell this as a service for ISK - would you be ****ed then?
- People continue to support this - and I might just end up doing this. I am actually thinking of a prototype where in I capture whoever is in The Forge region <or any other region with less number of systems>, Do you really want to try this one out? <Give me some support - and I will do it:)>
my problem with this BACON tool <and hence the extensions> is that it invalidates a bunch of things in game - like locator agents, actually playing the game instead of being AFK, Ice mining and so on. <Believe me - Ice product prices would be the first one to drop if this is not banned by ccp.>
Call it for what it is - its a macro. May be it doesn't alter the game state, but it does provide you an edge, a service for free which used to cost at one point.
Personally I consider that tool the Eve version of a F14 radar.
As far as your tool suggestion, I think it would be a good addition as far as military intelligence gathering.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:11:00 -
[69]
<sarcasm>What's the difference between having a program mine for you and mining for yourself?</sarcasm> |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:51:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/04/2008 06:52:58
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
An alliance wants to try and find War Targets that enter a system. They have a Voice Chat server but they don't want just anyone talking on it. To help with their search for Yarr! they force one of their corp mates to sit in the system of choice and constantly scan local. While technically possible to error in reporting War Targets this particular individual never has. They have been doing this duty for years and not once have they made a single mistake. When they see a War Target they press a button that creates a "beep" noise over their Voice Chat system. No one ever talks to this person and this person in turn never talks to anyone else. They just sit there and press a button to make a beep. Because they have been doing this for years the time it takes for them to send out the beep after a War Target enters local is slightly under half a second.
Now I ask you, is this corporation a bunch of cheaters who should be banned?
Yes the situation is extreme, but I wanted a hypothetical that would address the argument you have avoided. What is the difference between a corp that uses a person who does not error in reporting War Targets and a program that does not error in reporting war targets? I'll tell you: not everyone has a person that does not error. You say that this unbalances the game. I say it introduces something that is much harder for small corps to obtain then large corps. Accurate intelligence.
Any corp is free to have a hundred people, each sitting alone in a system reporting local status. Just like the redneck patroling the borders of his land in case aliens have landed. It is subject to human error, and also subject to human management, as telling people to sit in local 24/7 is not a realistic prospect for hundreds of people.
However, a corp can fund, via GTC's from profits from a single moon, dozens of accounts that sit afk in systems giving real time data via a Browser app for example. A player can look in the browser app and see real time local in the other side of the gate. Or perhaps they are running a mining op, and can spot enemies 5 jumps away heading in their direcition, giving them plenty of time to finish up.
Basically, humans can do the same thing, however, humans are not able to respond instantly like this program does. And humans need RL management as well, unlike this program which can run on dozens of alts that afk cloaked in systems.
Think Robotics. Robots can do humans job, and it is this that is the issue, since no human is as good at reporting as a instant logserver parser.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Lord Fitz
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:11:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 22/04/2008 07:12:23
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
1) Voice Chat can take the responsibility for a pilots safety out of their hands just as easily.
And puts it in the hands of other players, who can and do miss things. This puts it in the hands of something that doesn't miss things.
Again, this is incredibly border line, it's not 'unfair' as some might put it, but it's contrary to the spirit of the game. At the moment people are whinging about local providing an advantage, but it still requires people to notice things, with this you can make that so much easier that it may actually be the tool that makes them nerf local and remove this information from being sent to the logserver in the first place.
Quote:
And likewise there are no means in which Voice Chat could be used to promote AFK style gameplay?
Voice chat can promote AFK gameplay but it still requires a minimum of 1 person to NOT be AFK, this doesn't.
Quote:
Voice chat provides about 16 times the advantage BACON does.
Bacon doesn't do anything a halfway alert pilot wouldn't/couldn't do already.
Voice chat opens up shining new vistas of communication in the heat of battle.
I think the point is that BACON allows pilots to 'not' be halfway alert. Especially if you just stick an alt 1 jump out from your mining op and just listen for the beep, you will be uncatchable except for logon traps etc, which I don't think we're trying to encourage.
As has already been pointed out there was a version that uploaded this data to a server, and CCP thought that crossed the line, how would they really tell if this was enabled though ? Not to mention the ability to put 6 chars at entrances to a region and write a program that tracked any hostiles entering/leaving and gave a fairly accurate count of hostiles automatically, at a later time. Just because version 1 'beeps' doesn't mean version 2 can't do so much more.
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Schalac
Caldari
Brotherhood of Wolves
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:07:00 -
[72]
Lots of stuff about BACON lately. I don't use it or see a need to use it because I am a fat slob that actually plays games, but I used windower in FFXI. Lots of great stuff that program could do. Tell you technical points of party members, swap gear without making a billion in-game macros, percent of enemies health, alliance TP and MP, recast times of your spells and abilities.... Lots of people were against it. Yet many used it for obvious reasons. It was actually so popular that Square Enix made their previously "unwindowable" game, "windowable".
That said, let us take a step back and look at this from a non-biased standpoint. Now from this stand point I can see two very distinct stances. Those that feel it's a hack and those that feel it's nothing more than EVEMON with bells and low frequency chimes.
I don't really know where I stand on this topic because I have no use for it. Yet I am drawn to it for obvious reasons. Would I like a tool that lets me know when someone I dislike or am at war with enters system. Answer to that is simple, sure I would. Yet I already have it with local. Which, as I understand, is the basis for this program. When I am flying around I always have my local window up and open showing basically nothing but people that are in local. Really don't care what is being said there so I set it up to where I can barely see it on the left side of my screen right next to those fancy buttons that I minimized as soon as I logged in for the first time back in 2006.
First thing I saw about BACON was, "OMG macros are going to be using it to log off in 0.0 when someone enters"... good you want to kill someones macro then keep jumping in and out of system and find someone in a cov ops ship that can scan them out before they disappear from their emergency warp point. If you find that you should be able to guesstimate where they are going to warp to when they log back in, if they even do log back in. Problem solved, you can't make isk through ratting logged off or dead.
Another thing people are scared about is the log server giving up information about a particular pilot. My answer to this is... so what. Really, why do you play EVE if all you do is haul building blocks from one station to another or sit in an asteroid belt with a hulk every time you log in? EVE is a PVP, spaceship shoot-em-up game. I would bet every penny that I own that if you took EVE's fleet combat system and made a separate game out of it the player base would be quintupled. So again, no problem with there. Would it be embarrassing to for others to find out how I make isk, no. I have no shame in real life so why care about a video game.
Then people start talking about this "much more" thing. Guess what people, if those that want "much more" actually want "much more" they are going to make a "much more" program regardless of whether this BACON program exists or not. Actually I will go as far to say that this "much more" probably already exists. Quit thinking that this is the start of something that has more than likely been going on since 2003. Granted, open source does allow the less gifted of people access to something they never would of thought of, but again I digress and say, so what. If anything it will force CCP to take a stand against some forms of mods made by the players that serve their own ends. Maybe even a change in the EULA could come of it if it really became widespread, and on the internet everything becomes widespread, specially in such a small audience.
Anyway it is late and I'm drunk as hell and don't really feel like typing anymore so, think about these points and "to be continued".
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Vardemis
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:31:00 -
[73]
Quote:
[...] The only thing BACON does is beep when someone is in local.[...]
That is absolutely not true.
What BACON does is analyzing the data provided by the logserver and compare it to a predefined list.
Depending on the result a different sound or no sound is played.
Overall:
BACON is filtering the data instead of a human being, without a break, without failure.
BACON is providing information without delay, while there will be always some delay with humans involved.
Now please elaborate how voice chat can do the same.
The issue is not that it is a third party program, but that the game provides information on the client side that is that easy to access. A lot of people already pointed out that normal scripting on the client pc just using the BACON data instead of the game data can and will have extreme effects to the gameplay. The problem does not lie with the people that did develop BACON, but by CCP allowing anyone to make a tool like this possible. |
jna
Caldari
Black Ash Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 08:32:00 -
[74]
To the OP's question:
You may have missed it, but here's a hint.
-------------------------------------------------
Caeleste naves interretis res gravissimas sunt |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:49:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
Ki An: Your argument to me now seems to consist entirely of the concept that I don't understand how anything works at all.
I think you have a fair idea of how things work, but it is obvious that you have a hard time distinguishing between human and machine. Eve is a game designed to rely on human interaction. What Bacon does is remove that need.
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
Assume for a moment that I do and respond to my arguments rationally.
All my responses to you have been very rational. You just can't see it, because you are of the misconception that it doesn't matter if a human or a machine does something.
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
You are focusing on the robot aspect of this program. So I will pose a hypothetical to you and I would like to hear your opinion on it.
An alliance wants to try and find War Targets that enter a system. They have a Voice Chat server but they don't want just anyone talking on it. To help with their search for Yarr! they force one of their corp mates to sit in the system of choice and constantly scan local. While technically possible to error in reporting War Targets this particular individual never has. They have been doing this duty for years and not once have they made a single mistake. When they see a War Target they press a button that creates a "beep" noise over their Voice Chat system. No one ever talks to this person and this person in turn never talks to anyone else. They just sit there and press a button to make a beep. Because they have been doing this for years the time it takes for them to send out the beep after a War Target enters local is slightly under half a second.
Now I ask you, is this corporation a bunch of cheaters who should be banned?
No, they are playing the game. The scout sitting in that system is liable to make mistakes. He might get ganked, depriving the fleet of their scout. He might have to go afk and miss jump-ins. He might miscount and feed false intel. He might be a spy and feed false intel. The possibilities are endless. First and foremost, he can't sit in the system 23/7 and actively feed intel. Bacon can.
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
Yes the situation is extreme, but I wanted a hypothetical that would address the argument you have avoided. What is the difference between a corp that uses a person who does not error in reporting War Targets and a program that does not error in reporting war targets? I'll tell you: not everyone has a person that does not error. You say that this unbalances the game. I say it introduces something that is much harder for small corps to obtain then large corps. Accurate intelligence.
I have not been avoiding the argument. I have completely disregarded it because humans != machines. You can't seem to understand the difference.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:54:00 -
[76]
What most haters of BACON tells in this thread is correct.
It IS an automated reportfuntion. So what I dont understand is why it is not treated on the same basis as other 3rd user programs.
It might not be as sophisticated as the mining or mission macro programs I have heard rumours about, but by damn, any automated programs that do things for you automatically should be banned. Just on principle. It does not really matter wether or not CCP can detect it. It simply should not be allowed!
Also, comparing it to a voice program which utilize living humans as a source cant be comparable to a computer who reads file logs generated by EVE to give you information!
Originally by: Dianabolic
Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL |
Darth Tom
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:55:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Trix Rabbit
The only thing BACON does is beep. YOU the human are still required to take some action.
Are you really not understanding the problems that this program unleashes, or are you just trolling?
This is honestly not a troll. I have read quite a few arguments against BACON but they all seem fundamentally flawed to me. For one thing, this program in one form or another has been around for quite some time in the major alliances. So really there are no problems that BACON has created because any problems that might exist have already existed.
The two main complaints I have heard about BACON are as follows: 1) it takes responsibility for the pilots safety out of their hands and places it in a third party application, 2) MACRO miners/missioners will incorporate BACON into future MACROs which will allow them to evade people hunting them much more easily then currently.
Both of these arguments are flawed for the following reasons. 1) Voice Chat can take the responsibility for a pilots safety out of their hands just as easily. Yes you can have bad intelligence but you can also have good intelligence. The fact that sometimes its bad doesn't mean that the rest of the time there is some advantage being imparted that the other side might not have. So any argument that BACON is unfair seems pretty weak to me. 2) The idea that MACROs will eventually incorporate a BACON like device is also not a means to discourage the use of BACON. Everyone knows that MACROs use currier missions to make money. Should we then remove currier missions from the game? Just because some people can use a tool or a part of EVE to violate the EULA and mess up the game for others doesn't mean we should remove that tool or that part of EVE.
If your not trolling your an idiot, or a really big noob the problems with bacon are plain to see.
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Stratten
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Posted - 2008.04.22 09:20:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Stratten on 22/04/2008 09:24:13
Simple answer
Bacon uses the log files to gain access to verified real-time information within the game itself. No delays, no misunderstandings, no errors.
voice chat uses people, and communication to convey information, which can be delayed, misunderstood or erroneous.
The log files are the source of bacons information, these files are reserved for the use of troubleshooting only. Voice systems do not use any data from the game itself.
people seem to miss the issue, bacon can store and map every movement of every person in a given area. In a server setup, it can be used as a database to show every movement live or stored, provide a real time map of where people are by name, thier past routes, times and much much more.
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Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:23:00 -
[79]
Is the OP simply daft or something?
Voice-Chat facilitates communication between people.
BACON replaces human action with a computerized substitute.
That is the be all and end all of it. Voice-comms is communication between players, BACON is a ******* macro.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:30:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Stratten
people seem to miss the issue, bacon can store and map every movement of every person in a given area. In a server setup, it can be used as a database to show every movement live or stored, provide a real time map of where people are by name, thier past routes, times and much much more.
This is not limited to a simple local sound, if you want to allow others to know where you are coming from or going to and have that information stored for easy reference including real time maps, everytime you move or have moved, then by all means support it. I for one don't. (and of course this is only that type of information...log files contain other things too.)
Nobody has missed it, it's already been discussed. Not only would that be a direct violation of the EULA, and doing something CCP explicitly said not to do, it would be making the information traceable. So, by all means... go ahead and try that and see what happens.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Soul of Fountain
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:33:00 -
[81]
To all people claiming bacon is horrible what do you think about for example keyboards or mouses that can bind multiple keys to a single key?
It takes as much skill to press f1 through f8 as it does watching local.
If I had a say in it I would advice CCP to make a way to create addons that indeed does allow visual warnings based on trigger events or binding whatever keys to whatever you want. Because quite frankly it has ZERO influence on the skill of a player but DOES increase the playability of this game (pressing f1 through f8 is ******** repetition, constantly being focused on local chat is ******** repetition etc etc.)
---
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:34:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Shevar
To all people claiming bacon is horrible what do you think about for example keyboards or mouses that can bind multiple keys to a single key?
It takes as much skill to press f1 through f8 as it does watching local.
If that were true then there would have been no need to ever create BACON in the first place. Its very existence disproves your statement.
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Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Soul of Fountain
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:38:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Ridley Tree
Originally by: Shevar
To all people claiming bacon is horrible what do you think about for example keyboards or mouses that can bind multiple keys to a single key?
It takes as much skill to press f1 through f8 as it does watching local.
If that were true then there would have been no need to ever create BACON in the first place. Its very existence disproves your statement.
Something that doesn't take skill doesn't automatically mean it's fun to do.
Same reason with the people that either use programs or keyboards/mice to bind multiple keys to a single key. It doesn't take skill to press f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 f7 f8 every time you want to pewpew something (or activating all harderners ever jump etc) but it is highly annoying.
So I really can't follow your reasoning sorry. |
Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:48:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Shevar
Something that doesn't take skill doesn't automatically mean it's fun to do.
Same reason with the people that either use programs or keyboards/mice to bind multiple keys to a single key. It doesn't take skill to press f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 f7 f8 every time you want to pewpew something (or activating all harderners ever jump etc) but it is highly annoying.
So I really can't follow your reasoning sorry.
You can't follow it, because your initial statement doesn't contain any amount reasoning whatsoever. BACON exists because 'keeping track of local' requires skill and vigilance. BACON replaces that skill and vigilance with a set of computer eyes to do it for you.
F1-F8 macro on a G15 =! Bacon. |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:50:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Shevar
Something that doesn't take skill doesn't automatically mean it's fun to do.
Which means you are more prone to make mistakes when you get tired of it = Human error = loss of ship. Bacon is a machine which doesn't make errors. Also, your statement clearly means you support macros as viable means of getting minerals. Just a FYI that you perhaps should edit it out.
Originally by: Shevar
Same reason with the people that either use programs or keyboards/mice to bind multiple keys to a single key. It doesn't take skill to press f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 f7 f8 every time you want to pewpew something (or activating all harderners ever jump etc) but it is highly annoying.
So I really can't follow your reasoning sorry.
There where long threads about the Logitech keyboards allowing you to macro commands. AFAIK CCP where not pleased, but said they couldn't enforce a ban.
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Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Soul of Fountain
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:55:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Ridley Tree
Originally by: Shevar
Something that doesn't take skill doesn't automatically mean it's fun to do.
Same reason with the people that either use programs or keyboards/mice to bind multiple keys to a single key. It doesn't take skill to press f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 f7 f8 every time you want to pewpew something (or activating all harderners ever jump etc) but it is highly annoying.
So I really can't follow your reasoning sorry.
You can't follow it, because your initial statement doesn't contain any amount reasoning whatsoever. BACON exists because 'keeping track of local' requires skill and vigilance. BACON replaces that skill and vigilance with a set of computer eyes to do it for you.
F1-F8 macro on a G15 =! Bacon.
G15 exists because pressing 'f1 through f8' requires skill and vigilance. The G15 replaces that skill and vigilance with a set of perfect excecuting computer to do it for you.
F1-F8 macro on a G15 = Bacon.
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:57:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Shevar
G15 exists because pressing 'f1 through f8' requires skill and vigilance. The G15 replaces that skill and vigilance with a set of perfect excecuting computer to do it for you.
F1-F8 macro on a G15 = Bacon.
You seriously don't see the difference, do you? Wow... 
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 11:12:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Shevar
My statement indicates I'm a big fan of WoW's customaziable interface (a trigger going off is something entirely different as to doing an action for you), and yes a trigger such as a hostile entering a system should be able of being set to give a noice or other visual BLING HOSTILE in the middle of the screen. Just as you should be able of creating addons that allow you to activate all your guns or harderners with a single click.
CCP's interface fails and has always failed (I've played with all post beta interfaces and they consistently SUCK (just as the basic WoW interface, it just lacks options). The game is good enough to off-set it but it doesn't negate that problem.
A game should be played for fun and should be played efficiently. Constantly looking at local is a horrible UI decision.
Ok, so because YOU think something should be added to the game, that automatically makes it ok for people to make 3rd party programs to do whatever they feel should be added to the game.
Personally I want a program that tells me if there's a gate camp on the other side of a gate. Of course, I could get a scout, but it's easier with a program. Also, I've been hankering for a program that monitors the fight I am in, giving me opinions on what to do and when it's time to disengage. Of course, I could just get better at fighting and make those evaluations myself, but why bother if there's an automated tool for it. Or how about a beeping noise when someone has undercut me on the market somewhere. I would sure like that.
Go on programmers, get to work. All these are ok. Shevar said so.
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Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Soul of Fountain
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Posted - 2008.04.22 11:48:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Ki An
Personally I want a program that tells me if there's a gate camp on the other side of a gate.
It would be ok to have a program that would alert you when you actually entered the gatecamp, but then it would be rather pointless. Getting information solo from another system isn't information currently available. Hence it shouldn't be possible, what should be possible would be for example changing the icon of the gate to represent the colour of pod kills in last 30 minutes or active pilots in the last 30 minutes from the map.
Originally by: Ki An
giving me opinions on what to do and when it's time to disengage. Of course, I could just get better at fighting and make those evaluations myself, but why bother if there's an automated tool for it.
You could do something like this but it won't be as effective as you claim it would be (how many disengage addons are there for WoW for example?).
Originally by: Ki An
Or how about a beeping noise when someone has undercut me on the market somewhere. I would sure like that.
It would be a great addition if you could for example click your buy order in the wallet and automatically undercut the lowest buyorder (excluding the low volume ones) with a set amount.
All of these options DON'T change the way you play the game, it just makes information that already is available better accessible and more usuable. Leaving you better able to make decisions without having to grab a bit of info from screen A then switch to screen B etc.
Originally by: Ki An
Go on programmers, get to work. All these are ok. Shevar said so.
I would like the ability to have this sort of help, that doesn't make them legal given the current rules. But I just wish CCP would have the desire to make this game have a decent UI, and yes the communities UI's will ALWAYS be tons better then ANY CCP can give (primarily because the community will supply ui's based on niches while CCP's UI needs to please "everyone" including first time newbs).
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 12:06:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Shevar
It would be ok to have a program that would alert you when you actually entered the gatecamp, but then it would be rather pointless. Getting information solo from another system isn't information currently available. Hence it shouldn't be possible, what should be possible would be for example changing the icon of the gate to represent the colour of pod kills in last 30 minutes or active pilots in the last 30 minutes from the map.
So what you are saying is that any and all information that is available through the log files should be up for use by creative modders? And you don't think this might cause balance problems within the game?
Originally by: Shevar
You could do something like this but it won't be as effective as you claim it would be (how many disengage addons are there for WoW for example?).
You don't think it would be effective, I think it would be very effective. Most ships are lost due to lack of judgement on the pilot, so a program such as this would definately help in a tactical situation. Wouldn't make it any more right to use though.
Originally by: Shevar
It would be a great addition if you could for example click your buy order in the wallet and automatically undercut the lowest buyorder (excluding the low volume ones) with a set amount.
Yes, why do something yourself when you can get a macro to do it for you? Seriously...
Originally by: Shevar
All of these options DON'T change the way you play the game, it just makes information that already is available better accessible and more usuable. Leaving you better able to make decisions without having to grab a bit of info from screen A then switch to screen B etc.
It DOES change the way you play the game BECAUSE it makes the information more available. Bacon is a HUGE change in the game as people who normally aren't aware will now be watched over by an automated bot telling them when they are in danger. It REMOVES the human element, and diminishes us to mere users and no longer participants. It will also be REQUIRED by anyone wishing to compete in Eve. Just that last part tells me this is very wrong.
Originally by: Shevar
I would like the ability to have this sort of help, that doesn't make them legal given the current rules. But I just wish CCP would have the desire to make this game have a decent UI, and yes the communities UI's will ALWAYS be tons better then ANY CCP can give (primarily because the community will supply ui's based on niches while CCP's UI needs to please "everyone" including first time newbs).
CCP develops this game. The design decisions they take shouldn't be second guessed by players. We should have a level playing field, free of 'required' mods. Before you say EveMon or EFT, neither is required. Nor is TS or Vent. These programs either functions as spread sheets, alarm clocks or facilitated means of communication requiring human input. Bacon is a bot.
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