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How is BACON different from Voice Chat?

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Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:10:00 - [91] Posting in the 426th BACON thread. Awesome. And to the OP - your comparisons are absurd. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Face Palmer Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:20:00 - [92] Bacon spam, mmmm tasty
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Soul of Fountain	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:22:00 - [93] Edited by: Shevar on 22/04/2008 12:25:27 Originally by: Ki An CCP develops this game. The design decisions they take shouldn't be second guessed by players. We should have a level playing field, free of 'required' mods. Before you say EveMon or EFT, neither is required. Nor is TS or Vent. These programs either functions as spread sheets, alarm clocks or facilitated means of communication requiring human input. Bacon is a bot. CCP doesn't disaprove the current incarnation of BACON nor the G15 keyboard (if they did they could choose to introduce a wardenlike program that scans for certain processes and just flag your account for banning). So according to your logic they are perfectly acceptable because we aren't supposed to "second guess" their decision? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
cyboman Caldari Mafia Italiana	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:23:00 - [94] I use BACON and it didn't save my PHOON from jumping into a system that had several hostiles sitting on the gate waiting for me. BACON can't replace your need to safespot and cloak up. I see no advantage here.... move along...
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:25:00 - [95] Originally by: Shevar CCP doesn't disaprove the current incarnation of BACON nor the G15 keyboard (if they did they could choose to introduce a wardenlike program that scans for certain processes and just flag your account for banning). So according to your logic they are perfectly acceptable because we aren't supposed to "second guess" they decision? Ffs, don't make yourself look more stupid than you actually are. As we have already explained to you, your G15 comparison is full of fail. And just FYI, CCP hasn't approved nor disapproved of BACON yet. That's because they are investigating it right now. The ONLY comments they have made is that the program doesn't APPEAR to violate the current EULA, but that we SHOULD NOT TAKE THIS AS CCP APPROVAL! If CCP approves of this program (Allah forbid), I won't be around to second guess them. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:26:00 - [96] Originally by: cyboman I use BACON and it didn't save my PHOON from jumping into a system that had several hostiles sitting on the gate waiting for me. BACON can't replace your need to safespot and cloak up. I see no advantage here.... move along... Yes, because you found yourself in a situation where this program couldn't help you it means the program is perfectly fine. GG. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Soul of Fountain	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:41:00 - [97] Edited by: Shevar on 22/04/2008 12:44:37 Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 22/04/2008 12:28:26 Originally by: Shevar CCP doesn't disaprove the current incarnation of BACON nor the G15 keyboard (if they did they could choose to introduce a wardenlike program that scans for certain processes and just flag your account for banning). So according to your logic they are perfectly acceptable because we aren't supposed to "second guess" they decision? Ffs, don't make yourself look more stupid than you actually are. As we have already explained to you, your G15 comparison is full of fail. And just FYI, CCP hasn't approved nor disapproved of BACON yet. That's because they are investigating it right now. The ONLY comments they have made is that the program doesn't APPEAR to violate the current EULA, but that we SHOULD NOT TAKE THIS AS CCP APPROVAL! If CCP approves of this program (Allah forbid), I won't be around to second guess them. /Edit: It doesn't surprise me that the supporters of BACON are exclusively made up of people from failed/carebear alliances and alts. Ooooh an ZOMG do this CCP or I WILL CANCELL MY ACCOUNT AND ALL MY 300 ALTS!!! post /Edit: It doesn't suprise me that the supporters of the banning of BACON are failed PvP'ers who can only manage to PvP in empire. Eg. even goons have created their own "bacon-like" application. (long live broad generalizations entirely missing the point, I don't support them but appearantly you do)
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:46:00 - [98] Edited by: Ki An on 22/04/2008 12:46:38 Originally by: Shevar Ooooh an ZOMG do this CCP or I WILL CANCELL MY ACCOUNT AND ALL MY 300 ALTS!!! post No, I will just vote with my wallet and take my fun elsewhere. How's that? If CCP feels that this program signifies the direction that Eve should take, I want no part of it. Originally by: Shevar /Edit: It doesn't suprise me that the supporters the banning of BACON are failed PvP'ers who can only manage to PvP in empire. That's just stupid. What I said was correct though. Originally by: Shevar Eg. even goons have created their own "bacon-like" application. I would urge you to research that a bit before going further with it. Originally by: Shevar (long live broad generalizations entirely missing the point, I don't support them but appearantly you do) The point is quite clear. You fail at protecting yourself, so you feel the need to have a program such as this. Soul of Fountain is a carebear alliance, and so are most of the one's with members posting in support of this. That's not generalizing. That's stating fact.
Torik Tavitas	Posted - 2008.04.22 12:57:00 - [99] Originally by: Ki An It DOES change the way you play the game BECAUSE it makes the information more available. Bacon is a HUGE change in the game as people who normally aren't aware will now be watched over by an automated bot telling them when they are in danger. It REMOVES the human element, and diminishes us to mere users and no longer participants. It will also be REQUIRED by anyone wishing to compete in Eve. Just that last part tells me this is very wrong. The information is either available or it is not. Everything else is just presentation. BACON uses information already available in local. If CCP decided that providing us with information on who is in the system is part of the game then the actual presentation of the information is irrelevant.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:03:00 - [100] Originally by: Torik Tavitas The information is either available or it is not. Everything else is just presentation. BACON uses information already available in local. If CCP decided that providing us with information on who is in the system is part of the game then the actual presentation of the information is irrelevant. First, there is a clear difference here. If this information is already easily available, then Bacon wouldn't be needed. The fact that the program even exists tells me that it does facilitate the parsing of said information, parsing that a human mind, with all it's pros and cons, would have to do otherwise. Second, I agree that it is the availability of the information that is the real problem. CCP has to rethink what goes into logs and how these can be abused. I would give props to Hydra for bringing this to the public eye for review and rejection, but then it's fairly obvious they actually think this should be allowed, so fsck them.
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:06:00 - [101] Originally by: Torik Tavitas The information is either available or it is not. Everything else is just presentation. BACON uses information already available in local. If CCP decided that providing us with information on who is in the system is part of the game then the actual presentation of the information is irrelevant. I'm in a market hub with 100 people. A war target jumps in. Do I see that target if I am watching local? Maybe, maybe not. Information overload may cause me to miss him. Will BACON alert me? Yes - 100% of the time. In this case, the way the data was presented matters quite a bit.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:10:00 - [102] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 22/04/2008 13:10:29 Originally by: Torik Tavitas Originally by: Ki An It DOES change the way you play the game BECAUSE it makes the information more available. Bacon is a HUGE change in the game as people who normally aren't aware will now be watched over by an automated bot telling them when they are in danger. It REMOVES the human element, and diminishes us to mere users and no longer participants. It will also be REQUIRED by anyone wishing to compete in Eve. Just that last part tells me this is very wrong. The information is either available or it is not. Everything else is just presentation. BACON uses information already available in local. If CCP decided that providing us with information on who is in the system is part of the game then the actual presentation of the information is irrelevant. Stop trying to sidestep the issue with clever wording or delude yourself that there's nothing wrong with using this. I also think their should be a program that sounds an alarm if someone has just warped into the belt behind you, so if you're alligned you can get the hell out of there before they lock and scramble you, especially lowsec. Obviously this information is available already ingame, you'd just have to keep rotating your camera, but why leave yourself open to risk via an imperfect interface?
Torik Tavitas	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:33:00 - [103] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Torik Tavitas The information is either available or it is not. Everything else is just presentation. BACON uses information already available in local. If CCP decided that providing us with information on who is in the system is part of the game then the actual presentation of the information is irrelevant. First, there is a clear difference here. If this information is already easily available, then Bacon wouldn't be needed. The fact that the program even exists tells me that it does facilitate the parsing of said information, parsing that a human mind, with all it's pros and cons, would have to do otherwise. Second, I agree that it is the availability of the information that is the real problem. CCP has to rethink what goes into logs and how these can be abused. I would give props to Hydra for bringing this to the public eye for review and rejection, but then it's fairly obvious they actually think this should be allowed, so fsck them. I guess it is just the way I think. To me presentation is irrelevant. If the information is made available then it should be presented in a way that makes it easiest to comprehend within the confines of the game. So if the game tells me when someone enters the system I am in and I can then see if they are hostiel to me then it should not matter if I obtain the information by clicking one button or a dozen or whether the information is presented visually or through sound. That should really be a secondary concern that does not affect actual gameplay. Giving players full access to so much information and then trying to hide it by using a bad UI is just idiotic.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:36:00 - [104] Originally by: Torik Tavitas I guess it is just the way I think. To me presentation is irrelevant. If the information is made available then it should be presented in a way that makes it easiest to comprehend within the confines of the game. So if the game tells me when someone enters the system I am in and I can then see if they are hostiel to me then it should not matter if I obtain the information by clicking one button or a dozen or whether the information is presented visually or through sound. That should really be a secondary concern that does not affect actual gameplay. Giving players full access to so much information and then trying to hide it by using a bad UI is just idiotic. The "full access" you speak of is actually a log file written to your hard drive to fascilitate bug hunting. It is, in short, not supposed to be a part of the UI, which is why it can only be found in your game's installation folder. The UI presents the information that is and should be available to you during game play. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Soul of Fountain	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:38:00 - [105] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Torik Tavitas I guess it is just the way I think. To me presentation is irrelevant. If the information is made available then it should be presented in a way that makes it easiest to comprehend within the confines of the game. So if the game tells me when someone enters the system I am in and I can then see if they are hostiel to me then it should not matter if I obtain the information by clicking one button or a dozen or whether the information is presented visually or through sound. That should really be a secondary concern that does not affect actual gameplay. Giving players full access to so much information and then trying to hide it by using a bad UI is just idiotic. The "full access" you speak of is actually a log file written to your hard drive to fascilitate bug hunting. It is, in short, not supposed to be a part of the UI, which is why it can only be found in your game's installation folder. The UI presents the information that is and should be available to you during game play. So now you are claiming players can't view every player (including the hostiles) in local? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:39:00 - [106] Originally by: Shevar So now you are claiming players can't view every player (including the hostiles) in local? No, I'm claiming that the use of a 3rd party tool to parse that information automatically and then present it in a way not intended is a cheat. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Torik Tavitas	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:44:00 - [107] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 22/04/2008 13:10:29 Originally by: Torik Tavitas Originally by: Ki An It DOES change the way you play the game BECAUSE it makes the information more available. Bacon is a HUGE change in the game as people who normally aren't aware will now be watched over by an automated bot telling them when they are in danger. It REMOVES the human element, and diminishes us to mere users and no longer participants. It will also be REQUIRED by anyone wishing to compete in Eve. Just that last part tells me this is very wrong. The information is either available or it is not. Everything else is just presentation. BACON uses information already available in local. If CCP decided that providing us with information on who is in the system is part of the game then the actual presentation of the information is irrelevant. Stop trying to sidestep the issue with clever wording or delude yourself that there's nothing wrong with using this. I also think their should be a program that sounds an alarm if someone has just warped into the belt behind you, so if you're alligned you can get the hell out of there before they lock and scramble you, especially lowsec. Obviously this information is available already ingame, you'd just have to keep rotating your camera, but why leave yourself open to risk via an imperfect interface? That's actually a pretty good idea. A proximity alarm makes perfect sense within the environment of the game. Anyway, you do not have to keep rotating the camera for that. It shows up in your overview.
Ikki Phoenix Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:48:00 - [108] It is not a cheat. The tool doesn't provide anything that isn't already in game. What the tool does is providing those things automatically,think like military radar or Advanced Warning System. Same thing. Would you say that the military is always afk while using radar?I don't think so. In addition CCP has approved that tool. So there is no reason to continue such a debate/flaming So,to all complaining, please do take a deep breath and move on
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:51:00 - [109] Originally by: Ikki Phoenix It is not a cheat. The tool doesn't provide anything that isn't already in game. What the tool does is providing those things automatically,think like military radar or Advanced Warning System. Same thing. If CCP deems that this game needs a tool like that, they would develop it. As it is, a third party has taken it upon themselves to write a program that alters game play. It DOES provide something that isn't already in the game. It provides a fail-safe proximity alarm. THAT is what we keep telling you, but some of you are too dense to listen. It automates a process that normally would be subject to human error. This alters game play in more ways than you can imagine. Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Would you say that the military is always afk while using radar?I don't think so. That's probably the most stupid post in a thread full of stupid posts. Originally by: Ikki Phoenix In addition CCP has approved that tool. So there is no reason to continue such a debate/flaming No they haven't ! Originally by: Ikki Phoenix So,to all complaining, please do take a deep breath and move on I hope they ban you for using this.
Torik Tavitas	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:13:00 - [110] Edited by: Torik Tavitas on 22/04/2008 14:14:38 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Ikki Phoenix It automates a process that normally would be subject to human error. This alters game play in more ways than you can imagine. Well the process should not really be prone to human error the way CCP implemented local. People have been taking advantage of a flaw in the UI for too long anyway.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:18:00 - [111] Originally by: Torik Tavitas Well the process should not really be prone to human error the way CCP implemented local. It's simply a UI failure which should not impact gameplay anyway. What in the whole wide world of sports makes you come to that conclusion? I think the UI is fine and that local should be very prone to human failure, as, paraphrasing Oveur, it's not meant to be used as an intel tool anyway. See now what has happened. Someone got the bright idea to 'improve' the game on their own accord, and now all hell is breaking loose. CCP will have to contain this issue very soon, or all forms of 'versions' of this cheat bot will start to appear. Moral of the story: Let the Devs alter the game. That's why they are devs and you are a player. If you alter it on your own you deserve to be banned.
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:22:00 - [112] Originally by: Ki An Moral of the story: Let the Devs alter the game. That's why they are devs and you are a player. If you alter it on your own you deserve to be banned. And here we have arrived at the crux of the matter.
Torik Tavitas	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:29:00 - [113] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Torik Tavitas Well the process should not really be prone to human error the way CCP implemented local. It's simply a UI failure which should not impact gameplay anyway. What in the whole wide world of sports makes you come to that conclusion? I think the UI is fine and that local should be very prone to human failure, as, paraphrasing Oveur, it's not meant to be used as an intel tool anyway. See now what has happened. Someone got the bright idea to 'improve' the game on their own accord, and now all hell is breaking loose. CCP will have to contain this issue very soon, or all forms of 'versions' of this cheat bot will start to appear. Moral of the story: Let the Devs alter the game. That's why they are devs and you are a player. If you alter it on your own you deserve to be banned. A chat channel that is coded to be used as an early detection/warning system just screams 'unfinished UI'. It's a completely backwards way of doing something like this. It becomes a stupid 'mini-game' that should not have been there in a first place. Completely devoid of skill.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:32:00 - [114] Originally by: Torik Tavitas A chat channel that is coded to be used as an early detection/warning system just screams 'unfinished UI'. It's a completely backwards way of doing something like this. It becomes a stupid 'mini-game' that should not have been there in a first place. Completely devoid of skill. Wtf are you talking about? If you don't like the way the game's UI works, THEN QUIT FFS! Don't go around supporting cheats just because they bring about the UI that YOU want. You are NOT a developer working for CCP, so you should damn well stay away from meddling with stuff that alters game play. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:32:00 - [115] Originally by: Torik Tavitas A chat channel that is coded to be used as an early detection/warning system just screams 'unfinished UI'. It's a completely backwards way of doing something like this. It becomes a stupid 'mini-game' that should not have been there in a first place. Completely devoid of skill. What is your point here? Are you trying to argue that every gap you perceive in EVE is fair game for someone to develop a 3rd party application?
Sidewayzracer Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:32:00 - [116] Now i was doing some asking arround and general flaming people for using this program and stumbled upon a few Hydra members and users of BACON. I have a few quotes from them id like to share and i was wondering if CCP and the rest of the player base can confirm this. Ulath Safire > u get 3 - 5 SEC warning. before local updates.. Sidewayzracer > hold u said it tells you some1 entered the system b4 u would normal c them enter the local channle? FisherKing > when u enter a system... the logs are updated first... before u enter local.. FisherKing > so..3-5 sec warning.. depending on how much lag.. u have PLZ Discuss this
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:33:00 - [117] Originally by: Torki Tavitas Anyway the devs at present have given their approval to this so calling for bannings is stupid. I didn't know you could get this stupid... NO THEY HAVE NOT GIVEN THEIR APPROVAL! Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:34:00 - [118] Originally by: Sidewayzracer Now i was doing some asking arround and general flaming people for using this program and stumbled upon a few Hydra members and users of BACON. I have a few quotes from them id like to share and i was wondering if CCP and the rest of the player base can confirm this. Ulath Safire > u get 3 - 5 SEC warning. before local updates.. Sidewayzracer > hold u said it tells you some1 entered the system b4 u would normal c them enter the local channle? FisherKing > when u enter a system... the logs are updated first... before u enter local.. FisherKing > so..3-5 sec warning.. depending on how much lag.. u have PLZ Discuss this And this is pretty messed up. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Sidewayzracer Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:37:00 - [119] so now how is vent/TS different the BACON well it tells you some1 entered local before anyone can see it. discuss further also please someone please confirm that this is true if it is then i can not see how this is not a exploit.
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2008.04.22 14:39:00 - [120] Edited by: Lady Natacha on 22/04/2008 14:41:38 Originally by: Sidewayzracer Ulath Safire > u get 3 - 5 SEC warning. before local updates.. Sidewayzracer > hold u said it tells you some1 entered the system b4 u would normal c them enter the local channle? FisherKing > when u enter a system... the logs are updated first... before u enter local.. FisherKing > so..3-5 sec warning.. depending on how much lag.. u have If the above is true, 2 things are certain. 1) The application needs to be renamed to fried-BACON 2) CCP obviously needs to offer a text-based version of the client for performance reasons. My EVE sigs

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