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MEBHansen
Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2008.04.27 09:47:00 -
[61]
I vote for complete elimination of the cursed learning skills. They suck the fun right out of the game.
Instead, just boost every chr. attributtes by 9 or 10, and delete the learning tree. Sure, peeps will whine and cry, but It'll help new players play the game, instead of quitting after trial period is over.
OR Make them Usefull besides +1 attribute... For instance make Willpower give +% on say... ship sensor strength? Perception bonus to tracking? Charisma bonus to market deals and/or NPC standings? Memory bonus to ? etc.
just a thought...
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:02:00 -
[62]
Originally by: MEBHansen I vote for complete elimination of the cursed learning skills. They suck the fun right out of the game.
Instead, just boost every chr. attributtes by 9 or 10, and delete the learning tree. Sure, peeps will whine and cry, but It'll help new players play the game, instead of quitting after trial period is over.
OR Make them Usefull besides +1 attribute... For instance make Willpower give +% on say... ship sensor strength? Perception bonus to tracking? Charisma bonus to market deals and/or NPC standings? Memory bonus to ? etc.
just a thought...
well said!
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:09:00 -
[63]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: OffBeaT what are you gona do with +5 implants on. you cant fight they cost too much too lose so i am guessing you are into the money part of the game and dont come out much. its the implants that these guys can cash in on too much when it comes too skilling up or they just give them too there accounts they dont play but sell..
bs i say.. thouse implants should never of been put into the game, +3 was enough. what are we gona get upto +10 ones and knowone willing too pvp. me head cost too much, talk about head hunting. can i shrenk your head too when i get it. 200mil head for sale.
+5's cost too much to lose? What about snake/halo/slave etc sets that people use for pvp? Implants shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether or not you PVP, maybe for you they are... but I could give a damn if I have +1s or a head full of 3bil in implants. I normally run only +4 perc/willpower or int/mem depending on my skillplan and if I'm training support or combat skills.
My learning skills are crap on this character, I think i have a total of 1.3mil SP in learning and I'm around 2-4mil SP behind characters who actually put some time into training their learning skills. Not much of a difference if you ask me, and I play to have fun so it doesn't really phase me when someone whips out the SP Epeen and waves it in my face.
Everyones pod makes the same squish sounds when it goes...
look man, some of us play this guys right and for the challange. i didnt buy this guy proble like you did and i dont have 6 accounts too make a fortune with. i have 2 accounts one noob & one 5yrs old with with some time off on skill training becouse somone set me up and said somone bot this guy so they shut down my account. this guy i worked from start in 03 and i dont remeber your name.
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Misanth
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:10:00 -
[64]
Originally by: MEBHansen I vote for complete elimination of the cursed learning skills. They suck the fun right out of the game.
Instead, just boost every chr. attributtes by 9 or 10, and delete the learning tree. Sure, peeps will whine and cry, but It'll help new players play the game, instead of quitting after trial period is over.
OR Make them Usefull besides +1 attribute... For instance make Willpower give +% on say... ship sensor strength? Perception bonus to tracking? Charisma bonus to market deals and/or NPC standings? Memory bonus to ? etc.
just a thought...
They are useful. They distinguish players learning speed. In that sense they're making some players more powerful than other players of same "age".
It sucks in many ways for new players, but it actually have a relevant impact on the game. Those that are more dedicated reap the reward in the long run.
Apart from that, I think the learning skills slow by steady should be integrated in new characters. EVE is an old game. Let the new players slow but steady get +1 learning skill trained for free up til advanced learning from now on. Say they add +1 every two months. It would take 50 months to totally integrate the five stats (5x5=25 stats in total, one every second month, 50 months total). They still have the choice after that to train advanced learning, and they still have the choice during these 50 months to train it faster if they want to. That way they still play a part for the more dedicated players.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.27 11:14:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Akita T Bottom line, to answer the OP to the question of "[are] learning skills necessary at all?"
NO, they're not necessary, but they are advisable. Basic learnings to L3 pay off in the first couple of days, so it would be stupid not to train them. Basic learnings to L4 pay off a little later, but they do pay off sooner if you can then immediately train L2/L3 advanced, which are not THAT cheap for a newbie... so again, you'd be stupid not to train them as soon as you can AFFORD them. Advanced learnings to 4 pay off reasonably soon if you plan to stick around, so you'd be better off in the LONG run to train them. Basic leranings to 5 and then advanced to L5, those take a long time to pay off, and you should ONLY train them if you KNOW you will be around years from now.
So, again... they are not a necessity, but they do help. The longer you plan to stick around, the better it is to have them done sooner... but not TOO soon. Let's put it this way... yeah, 2 to 4 years later, you do have more "useful" skills than the guys that stopped at 4/3 or 4/4 while you pressed on and got L5 in all of them... but for the first 2 months, you got NOTHING, and for the entire 2-4 years, they still got more useful SP.
And for the third time... no, you don't NEED any learning skills at all. You just WANT them done as soon as possible, even if you don't actually want to train them. It's a trade-off between "more stuff now" and "more stuff later". Where you decide to stop depends on how much stuff you want faster and how much later.
Akita please use full line breaks in your paragraphs, reading that made my eyes hurt :(
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Poreuomai
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:24:00 -
[66]
I really like the learning skills.
I didn't bother with them at first, but I then reached a point where training them all to 4 took less time than the next set of combat skills I wanted.
Now I will soon get to the point where training them all to 5 will be worth it.
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Forluhn
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:40:00 -
[67]
People who do the learning skills right off the bat from day one have usually been playing for quite some time and that isn't their first char. So they just set it to learning skills ... forget about the char for a month and play on their main... If you are a first time player and you have someone tell you get the learning skills out of the way NOW, I'd say that's a terrible idea... just learn the LS's slowly and add them up between skills... otherwise you will get terribly bored of playing with your T1 frig.
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Stela'Artois
Los Gordos
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:25:00 -
[68]
I didnt read all of the posts, so if I repeat some or all of what someone said, then I apologize.
The problem with learning skills is that they have been around so long. If you were to remove them now and give everyone a universal and equal boost to their stats then you will anger players who have spent any time on them. If you make it so all new chars get a bonus to their stats, then that will still anger any players that spent time learning those skills in the first place. So, easiest fix is to just leave it alone. A while back they greatly buffed the amount of skills new characters get, so I would just be happy with that.
Now as to gimping yourself for 2 months while training them...that is total bunk. Getting learning skills to 4/3 or 4/4 is not that time intensive. If you look at the basic skills for new players they dont have a great deal of skills that take a long time to train. You find yourself with a ton of skills that take 30 minutes to 10 or less hours to train. So...you learn those short skills while playing, and then you learn the long (learning skills) while offline.
The problem really comes in this perception that having a skill at 5 is vitally important early in the game. In all honesty planniny and tactics has far more to do with whether you fly well than if you have any certain skill to 5. So, getting the requirements to use the basic modules, in the short run, is more important than training up to level 5.
For example, you can get 3-4 skills to level 4 in the time it takes you to get 1 to level 5.
Eventually, 2-3 months down the road, you will have all the learning skills at 4/3 or so and then can concentrate on getting some of those level 4's you trained up to 5. By then, you may have a better idea of what you want to do.
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ElysiumForge
Method Inc
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:34:00 -
[69]
i regret not doing learning skills at the very beginning, if your planning to play casual for a long time to come it makes it more fun imo ^^ |
Smackles
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Posted - 2008.04.28 14:16:00 -
[70]
Nobody has to train learning skills. STFU and play, train them if you want, don't train them if you don't want. Get implants instead or don't worry about skill training time at all. |
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.04.28 15:01:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Forge Lag on 28/04/2008 15:03:30 Learning skills are bad, we know it, devs know it. There is no way to remove them at this point though and they are not that bad burden if you train sensibly.
Also, training learning skills does not prevent you from flying ships, trading, mining, anything... I could put up a better argument that I cannot do much as engineer unless well into the game with a row of skills at L5.
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Nguyen VanPhuoc
Minmatar The Halibuts
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Posted - 2008.04.28 15:38:00 -
[72]
when i was a noob a friend gave me good advice, train learning skills at night and fun skills during the day
that way my skills were showing real, immediate benefits for my clueless self :) ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
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Adelaide Chen
Minmatar CharacTech Services
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Posted - 2008.04.28 15:43:00 -
[73]
CTS is soon to sell its new production prototype, which is an attribute twinked combat stat Khanid. Nothing else trained outside of Learning and Cybernetics.
~Adelaide Chen Chief Administrator CharacTech Services |
Gread Lancier
Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.04.28 15:59:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Gread Lancier on 28/04/2008 16:18:02 To the OP, the answer is yes, learning skills are necessary.
They are no different than any other skill. Each hour spent training those skills gives a future advantage. By saying you can't have a good character without them is like saying people don't choose to fly Caldari without shield/missile skills or Gallente/Amarr without gunnery/armor skills. Of course those are no brainers.
What about engineering, electronics, hull and armor skills? Without those skills fitting any ship to it's potential is nearly impossible. Waste of time? You can pick and choose what skills of each will benefit you most. Same as the learning skills. If you pay attention to what direction you want to go you can pick what learning skills will benefit you the most.
Say you are hell bent on going for Large Blaster specialization to fit on your BS. Gonna be well over 100 days. The only learning skills you really need are Perception and Willpower. So you hit up Learning to V and do the others to 4 and then make your run on the blaster BS. Now your time spent getting those large Blasters (Tech II) went to 90 days. You save the time on Memory, Intel and Char for other stuff when you want to commit to other specialties.
Each class of training has it's benefits and drawbacks. The beauty of learning skills is that by spending time you actually save time in an advanced career. All the skills are time sinks.
If you want to do away with learning skills then what about specialized skills for each race?
Since nobody is going to fly Gallente/Amarr without gunnery and armor tanking skills or fly Caldari without shield/missile skills, perhaps they should cancel those for each of those races.
Of course that leaves some difficult decisions for the Minmatar since they really have to train everything to compete in this game.
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Adjasarcanter
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 16:31:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Adjasarcanter on 28/04/2008 16:34:38 Edited by: Adjasarcanter on 28/04/2008 16:32:10
Originally by: Fauna Veldnaught I started to wondering about this issue while trying to find new character for me.
When a newb starts this game, he will spend next 1-2 months trying to train learning skills. Or he will train something else like pvp skills or mining skills and is wasting LOT'S of time. I know guys who has tried EVE and didn't upgrade to real account since they don't want to pay month for nothing.
Why is it eather train something usefull slowly as hell or train something totally unusefull so you can someday train something faster?
And I agree those guys, I would start new characters rightaway if I wouldn't have to spend that 1-2 months on useless learning skills... That's not anyones career in EVE.
Why there isn't just basic starter toons with some attribute setups instead of this time wasting? Check character bazaar, there is like 10 M SP characters with nearly nothing on learning - imagine how many months they have wasted? How many of the new players actually reads guides for new character creation and spends the first months on learning skills so he or she can actually start playing the game?
Learning skills are very much worth it if you plan on playing the game for anything like a decent length of time. Put it this way, a player who has trained all his learning skills to 5 (as a few people I know have done) will be training roughly 2.5 times faster than a person who has trained no learning skills at all. Plus, leaving implants out of the equation, no new character will ever be able to overtake him in total skill points (unless of course they have better base attributes.)
Point in case: I've trained all my learning skills to 4 (both basic and advanced) and my char is knocking on for 2 years old. However, one of my mates has a char that is just over half as old as me with all his learning to 5 and he will actually be overtaking me in total skill points very shortly. That's where the value is in training learning skills, although it only really becomes apparent if you are a hardcore player who is planning for the long term.
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Commander 598
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.28 16:48:00 -
[76]
Learning skills don't really show much effect until you start training really long skills/skill plans, till then it's knocks off a few hours maybe.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:37:00 -
[77]
It isn't necessary to train all the learning skills at once.
As others suggest I'd do a 50/50 split or maybe even a 25/75 split. (learning skills/other skills).
That way you get other more useful and fun skills as you do it.
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.04.28 20:44:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Gimpb on 28/04/2008 20:44:29 It's all about low hanging fruit the way I see it. For example, don't get learning 4 before navigation 1, use common sense.
You can save yourself 2 mins of training time by doing a month of learning skills first or you could have nav 1 a month earlier.
Besides, skills that contribute to your income generating capability will mean you can afford nicer implants sooner... it's hardly black and white.
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