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SisyphusUp
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:07:00 -
[1]
I was recently gate camped by three pilots with an excess of 30mil sp, which is no big deal. What bugs me is that since one of them was a heavy interdictor it didn't matter how many warp stabs I was using, there was no escape possible. The complete infallibility of these ships removes all risk from a gate camper of high skill. Previously there was always a chance that a pilot could load up on stabs and escape. And there was the risk that there would be enough campers to overcome the stabs or put out enough damage to gank before warping.
I'm not trying to complain I'm just wondering if it is the best interests of the game to make it possible for advanced players to kill or ransom anyone not able to kill them. I think that CCP should put in a method of overcoming heavy interdictors or limit them to 0.0 space.
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Red Wid0w
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:08:00 -
[2]
How about not being an idiot and sending a scout ahead? This makes you invulnerable. Nerf scouts!
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:09:00 -
[3]
Inertial stabilizers?
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Conrad Rock
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:09:00 -
[4]
Scout, friends (ecm if you can't kill them).
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:10:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: SisyphusUp
I was recently gate camped by three pilots with an excess of 30mil sp, which is no big deal. What bugs me is that since one of them was a heavy interdictor it didn't matter how many warp stabs I was using, there was no escape possible. The complete infallibility of these ships removes all risk from a gate camper of high skill. Previously there was always a chance that a pilot could load up on stabs and escape. And there was the risk that there would be enough campers to overcome the stabs or put out enough damage to gank before warping.
I'm not trying to complain I'm just wondering if it is the best interests of the game to make it possible for advanced players to kill or ransom anyone not able to kill them. I think that CCP should put in a method of overcoming heavy interdictors or limit them to 0.0 space.
You're totally complaining. I think you should be smarter than the guys camping you in the station.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:12:00 -
[6]
Let's see...
* Scouting
* Motoring back to the gate
* Cloak align/warp
Seems to me like there are several ways to overcome a heavy interdictor.
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Frug
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Shadow Joy
Let's see...
* Scouting
* Motoring back to the gate
* Cloak align/warp
Seems to me like there are several ways to overcome a heavy interdictor.
* Inertia stabilizers
* ECM + some luck
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Radcjk
Caldari
Dark Star LTD
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:20:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Radcjk on 26/04/2008 01:22:45
Originally by: SisyphusUp
The complete infallibility of these ships removes all risk from a gate camper of high skill.
Either A: This was phrased poorly.
Or B: You are wrong.
There's still quite a bit of risk in gate camping. Just because a ship has an ini-point doesn't make anti pirate blobs, rival PvP / Pirate gangs, or in some cases just a long ship that can use the gate guns and a pirates sec status to his advantage.
I think what you mean is it doesn't cause a risk that they'll fail to catch you ? In said case try nanos and over drives. Istabs increase your sig radius which makes you easier to lock on to, but if you align and warp in a few seconds you should get out.
Unless of course the HIC in question is remote sensor boosted or boosting himself. In that case if you arn't in web range, try aligning and running and warping off ?
In the event your in a ship that takes some time to do so (Battleship, Battlecruiser, Command Ship, heavy plated Cruiser, Iteron Mk IV or V, etc) then a small camp with a point or two a piece likely would have caught you anyway, regardless of an infini-point.
So I don't think the OP is very accurate to say the least.
Also, 0.0 and low sec is the very point of the HIC! The warp disruption generator's script, was designed to work against cap ships otherwise immune to to electronic warfare.
The only thing that deserves to be balanced after the HIC is the Blockade Runner transport ship.
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Diek Ran
Amarr
Autonums
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:29:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Diek Ran on 26/04/2008 01:30:44
Inertia stabs were always good modules, a pity that they're gaining real popularity only since HICs are around.
But I also say that infinite warp scramble strength is an imbalance because WCS can be considered useless as of now.
__________________________________
Originally by: Verlyn
I know it's my own fault,
BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Diek Ran
...
But I also say that infinite warp scramble strength is an imbalance because WCS can be considered useless as of now.
Funny. In my experience I run into far more ships with warp scramblers than I do heavy interdictors.
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Frug
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Diek Ran
Edited by: Diek Ran on 26/04/2008 01:30:44
Inertia stabs were always good modules, a pity that they're gaining real popularity only since HICs are around.
But I also say that infinite warp scramble strength is an imbalance because WCS can be considered useless as of now.
Really? useless? Yeah I don't think so.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr
The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadow Joy
Originally by: Diek Ran
...
But I also say that infinite warp scramble strength is an imbalance because WCS can be considered useless as of now.
Funny. In my experience I run into far more ships with warp scramblers than I do heavy interdictors.
I'm running into more and more heavy dictors as the days go by.
And all I travel is low-sec...they are becoming VERY popular in low-sec...
---
Put in space whales!
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Diek Ran
Amarr
Autonums
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:45:00 -
[13]
Hrmm, maybe I'm just paranoid and see a HIC behind every gate and I personally always considered interia stabs the better module (cause I like small ships).
And sure as the golden rule of pvp is to fit a scrambler, you still have the scramblers on your kill mail, even if the gang that killed you had 1 or 2 HICs with them.
__________________________________
Originally by: Verlyn
I know it's my own fault,
BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Diek Ran
Edited by: Diek Ran on 26/04/2008 01:30:44
WCS can be considered useless as of now.
Really? I got through a Red Alliance/Ultima Ratio camp (that included a Heavy Interdictor making a bubble) on the Orvolle gate in PF- just yesterday by taking a Rifter and fitting a mwd, 2 overdrive injectors and 1 warp core stabilizer on it. So, I beg to differ on that.
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Diek Ran
Amarr
Autonums
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Diek Ran
Edited by: Diek Ran on 26/04/2008 01:30:44
WCS can be considered useless as of now.
Really? I got through a Red Alliance/Ultima Ratio camp (that included a Heavy Interdictor making a bubble) on the Orvolle gate in PF- just yesterday by taking a Rifter and fitting a mwd, 2 overdrive injectors and 1 warp core stabilizer on it. So, I beg to differ on that.
...ok - nice breakthrough
__________________________________
Originally by: Verlyn
I know it's my own fault,
BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!
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El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.26 04:01:00 -
[16]
HICs are unbalanced in all sectors of space. They were created to fix another unbalanced problem, the fact that motherships and titan's were immune to warp scrambling.
Being designed for one purpose then they really become unbalanced in all other respects.
The HICs unlimited strength abilty to hold a ship makes it unbalanced. It will most likely need readjustment, the more we see of them the more quickly such a readjustment will come. Basically if I was the Devs I'd give the Titan's maybe a Warp Core Strength of 4, and Motherships a WCS of 3. Then let the HIC infinite hold become something like a 4 point hold. It would then be possible to fit a blockade runner with enough WCS to actually be able to escape a single HIC.
Another solution might be making the HIC have a longer lock time or make it such that it cannot use any sort of sensor boosting.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.04.26 04:13:00 -
[17]
Hmm.. Lets see. A solo non-covops ship gets pwnd by a HIC at a gatecamp. In the future use a scout or the map or both even. Eve is not designed to be playable solo even though many try to do it so make some friends or get a second account. 
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Slate Fistcrunch
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Posted - 2008.04.26 04:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: El'Niaga
HICs are unbalanced in all sectors of space.
I disagree. To address your points:
*Unlimited point is unbalanced
-> Unlimited points have been in the game a long time. Mobile warp disruption bubbles and dictor sphere probes both are infinite point. What a HIC adds to the game is some mobility and infinite point's move to low-sec. The mobility issue is not as strong of an asset as you may think. When not using a script the HIC is brought to a crawl. One could argue a regular interdictor with multiple launchers dropping a string of bubbles "moves" faster than a HIC. Granted this is 0.0. In low-sec they use scripts. This means one target. In this respects a HIC differs very little from a Lachesis. With 7 med slots, a Lach could theoretically fit 14 points at about 20km or 7 points out to about 40-50 km (take into account overloading blah blah blah). I do not know of any ships that can fit 15 stabs so the Lach can theoretically be configured to be infinite point against one target. Regular dictor can do infinite point AOE. So infinite point is nothing new and in of itself it does not unbalance HICs.
*Give capital ships built in points.
-> Without going into balancing issues, the outcry from this idea would keep CCP from implementing it alone. To see a 90billion isk titan stopped in it's tracks by 5 ibises with unnamed warp disruptors would be a hilarious example of your new "balance".
* Make HIC infinite point become X points.
-> This would completely remove any benefit of flying this class. They take many sacrifices to fill this role. Cap is horrible. Scan res is not great. Damage output is pitiful. Tank is great on some and marginal on others yet it can't be remote repaired so in large groups it's going to die fast. If you make HIC point become X point then all of a sudden several ships outclass the HIC or make it redundant. EAS Keres with 5 med slots becomes a real option. Lachesis and Arazu become great options. Interdictors shine again. Even a many med slot battleship can almost fill the same role.
* No sensor boosting for HICs.
The Phobos is one of the HICs that is easiest to self sensor boost. Even so, it is no certain matter that you will catch anything below battlecruiser size. Nanoed cruiser have a chance to get into warp before lock and they certainly can out distance the point. Frigates should have no trouble. Shuttles are impossible. Removing sensor boosting for HICs would make them relatively worthless. They would be locking far after other ships meaning they are removed from the tackling role and moved to the useless role. Everyone would want a Lachesis or Arazu in its place.
The real problem that I see is that people are used to being able to avoid PVP. If you put on enough WCS, you can avoid PVP. If you nano up enough, you can avoid PVP. A HIC on its own is not a huge threat in low-sec. Any combat ship has a chance. Small ships can run for the gate or better yet outrun the point. Large ships can easily outtank, neut, or possibly outright kill the HIC considering gateguns. The only ships that are in real danger are industrials and transports and they are meant to be vulnerable.
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Stahlregen
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.26 04:40:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Stahlregen on 26/04/2008 04:41:06
Are heavy interdictors in high-sec unbalanced?
Hell yes they are! One of the main reasons i got one (Aside from being able to survive getting wailed on by a cpital fleet for a minute or two) is that i can perma camp 0.4 gate guns and shoot the hell out of whatever comes through. If things gobad i can just wait 60 seconds and jump through the gate to safety while the hostiles have to chew through 25k of shields at 95% resists, which of course takes aaaaaages.
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Segge Bolled
Caldari
Dirty Sexy Pilots
New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.26 04:52:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Segge Bolled on 26/04/2008 04:53:40
(Added underlining)
Originally by: Stahlregen
Are heavy interdictors in high-sec unbalanced?
Originally by: Stahlregen
Hell yes they are! One of the main reasons i got one (Aside from being able to survive getting wailed on by a cpital fleet for a minute or two) is that i can perma camp 0.4 gate guns and shoot the hell out of whatever comes through. If things gobad i can just wait 60 seconds and jump through the gate to safety while the hostiles have to chew through 25k of shields at 95% resists, which of course takes aaaaaages.
... high-sec =/= low-sec.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.26 05:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch
Stuff
I would disagree with you, in fact almost every person who doesn't fly one and some who do realize the ship is unbalanced.
Yes the warp bubbles are infinite however they can only be deployed in 0.0. Which helps to balance them out. By your argument the HIC should be restricted to using its infinite point warp scrambler in 0.0 space if that's how you want to balance it.
The fact that the mothership pilots and titan pilots would cry about having in built points should not affect the need to do this. It would have been a far more balanced approach than what we have. Yes the 5 Ibis can warp scramble it, at the same time they can use their fighters (mothership) to kill only one or two ibis and get away. The Titan could just mount ecm burst or similar and get away.
It doesn't remove the HICs role, it would still have sufficient points to hold down a Capital ship with a tank capable of remaining there long enough for its fleet mates to finish off the capital.
I'm sorry but they can with the proper fit lock much faster than you are indicating.
EVE is more than just combat PVP. If someone doesn't want to fight you in combat then they aren't avoiding PVP. They still have to compete for goods and services in the marketplace, whether they are supplying that market or utilizing it. It is the mentality you show in your post is the reason 80% of the EVE population stays in High Sec. 0.0 doesn't have the infrastructure to support a larger population, and those living in it shoot at even the most harmless industrials who if left alone could provide the infrastructure so more would come.
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Evita Achura
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.04.26 05:07:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Evita Achura on 26/04/2008 05:10:41
Edited by: Evita Achura on 26/04/2008 05:10:25
Originally by: SisyphusUp
CCP should put in a method of overcoming heavy interdictors or limit them to 0.0 space.
1. DONT FLY ALONE. If you are such a social misanthrope that you don't have any friends in this game or can't pay to hire some then don't undock.
2. Use an alt scout. If you are not willing to use an alt to scout for your self then your own complacency is what gets you blown up.
3. Decloak, pop mwd, cloak, align, decloak warp. Easy to do dosn't cost you anything but training time to learn the skills for an mwd and a cloak + module costs.
4. Nano + Inertial Stab + WCS = your friend. You can get haulers / transports down to a 4-6 second align time with that the fact that you improperly fit your ship does not justify your desire for an "iwin" button.
5. Fight back. This involves 1 and 2 but includes PvP ( its a term you might have heard of once or twice ) blow up the gate camp and move on.
CCP was kind enough to "implement" these features if you can't be bothered to use the ones that exist for your benefit then quit and give me your stuff I will make much better use of it than you.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.26 05:57:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 26/04/2008 05:57:33
Originally by: El'Niaga
EVE is more than just combat PVP. If someone doesn't want to fight you in combat then they aren't avoiding PVP.
Not wanting to fight shouldn't automatically (without needing any kind of thought, challenge, or risk) translate into not having to.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.26 06:46:00 -
[24]
I leant this and I recomend it. Do what all teh kool kids does. Buy a secund accont and flie with alt in front of you. It worked. 
---------
Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Go veot!
Put vioce for silient majoriety.
LOVE PVP, HATE grief |
Slate Fistcrunch
|
Posted - 2008.04.26 06:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: El'Niaga
(replied stuff)
I addressed many issues trying to cover the varied ways you were taking your argument. I am not sure if you are focusing on hi-sec use as your title states or low-sec or what. I will continue addressing your points and state my position a bit better.
I have had 463 documented kills with a Phobos. Most of those were in a gang preying on low-sec traffic. I have had up to 3 sensor boosters fitted, 2 targeting subsystem rigs, and multiple remote sensor boosters active. I've seen my scan res past 1500. In such a setup, yes I can catch frigates and the like. Shuttles are still impossible (mostly due to module lag). However that setup is only realistic with a gang. When a gang is working together I expect them to be able to leverage their power to stop single ships buzzing through low sec.
My point is this: I have not heard one argument yet of why HICs as opposed to other ships filling similar roles are overpowered. Can they lock fast with the setups as I stated above? Yes they can. However in those gangs often the Huginn or Lachesis would lock before or at the same time. Can they put enough points on something so you know it won't warp off? Yes they can. However a Lachesis can do the same thing at a greater range. Lach with 1 mwd and nothing but points fills the exact same role.
To put it simply: The HICs in low-sec (or hi-sec for that matter) share roles with other ships. Arguments leveled at the HIC often apply to other ship classes. What exactly is it about HICs that is unbalanced? Is it that they are too strong (as in combination of tank, tackle, and LOL dps)? Does it have some special ability (in low sec it is same as Lach as far as tackle)? I ask these questions because this discussion is flying all about from zero zero use, low-sec piracy, and hi-sec use (of which I know little of).
HICs only unique role / ability is the infinite point against supercapitals and the moving sphere in zero zero. The ability to tackle in low-sec / hi-sec has existed for a long time but not as widely prevalent until the HIC. If anything I would expect arguments stating the HICs tank combined with tackle power is unbalanced versus other ships in that role. I really didn't think the infiniteness of the point was an issue. Perhaps you can make me see clearer.
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Obama Girl
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Posted - 2008.04.26 06:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
I leant this and I recomend it. Do what all teh kool kids does. Buy a secund accont and flie with alt in front of you. It worked.
So, does this mean the introduction of hics was a trick by ccp to get more subscriptions ? 
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.26 06:59:00 -
[27]
I don't knoe. I only listened to a CRM vet. She knoes the game well then me and gaev me this adviece.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=755364&page=1#11
Alts is teh game.
---------
Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Go veot!
Put vioce for silient majoriety.
LOVE PVP, HATE grief |
Karlemgne
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.04.26 09:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch
Originally by: El'Niaga
HICs are unbalanced in all sectors of space.
I disagree. To address your points:
*Unlimited point is unbalanced
-> Unlimited points have been in the game a long time. Mobile warp disruption bubbles and dictor sphere probes both are infinite point. What a HIC adds to the game is some mobility and infinite point's move to low-sec. The mobility issue is not as strong of an asset as you may think. When not using a script the HIC is brought to a crawl. One could argue a regular interdictor with multiple launchers dropping a string of bubbles "moves" faster than a HIC. Granted this is 0.0. In low-sec they use scripts. This means one target. In this respects a HIC differs very little from a Lachesis. With 7 med slots, a Lach could theoretically fit 14 points at about 20km or 7 points out to about 40-50 km (take into account overloading blah blah blah). I do not know of any ships that can fit 15 stabs so the Lach can theoretically be configured to be infinite point against one target. Regular dictor can do infinite point AOE. So infinite point is nothing new and in of itself it does not unbalance HICs.
*Give capital ships built in points.
-> Without going into balancing issues, the outcry from this idea would keep CCP from implementing it alone. To see a 90billion isk titan stopped in it's tracks by 5 ibises with unnamed warp disruptors would be a hilarious example of your new "balance".
* Make HIC infinite point become X points.
-> This would completely remove any benefit of flying this class. They take many sacrifices to fill this role. Cap is horrible. Scan res is not great. Damage output is pitiful. Tank is great on some and marginal on others yet it can't be remote repaired so in large groups it's going to die fast. If you make HIC point become X point then all of a sudden several ships outclass the HIC or make it redundant. EAS Keres with 5 med slots becomes a real option. Lachesis and Arazu become great options. Interdictors shine again. Even a many med slot battleship can almost fill the same role.
* No sensor boosting for HICs.
The Phobos is one of the HICs that is easiest to self sensor boost. Even so, it is no certain matter that you will catch anything below battlecruiser size. Nanoed cruiser have a chance to get into warp before lock and they certainly can out distance the point. Frigates should have no trouble. Shuttles are impossible. Removing sensor boosting for HICs would make them relatively worthless. They would be locking far after other ships meaning they are removed from the tackling role and moved to the useless role. Everyone would want a Lachesis or Arazu in its place.
The real problem that I see is that people are used to being able to avoid PVP. If you put on enough WCS, you can avoid PVP. If you nano up enough, you can avoid PVP. A HIC on its own is not a huge threat in low-sec. Any combat ship has a chance. Small ships can run for the gate or better yet outrun the point. Large ships can easily outtank, neut, or possibly outright kill the HIC considering gateguns. The only ships that are in real danger are industrials and transports and they are meant to be vulnerable.
One comment here. No lachesis ever made can solo camp a low-sec gate. In fact, to camp a low sec gate in one would require heavy remote repping.
Tbh, I didn't start thinking there might be a balance issue with these ships until the first time an Onyx tanked my full gank mega plus sentries for 4 minutes. I finally had to disengage when a bunch of his buddies showed up.
-Karlemgne
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.26 09:50:00 -
[29]
Having not read the rest of the replies;
No, because if you travel AFK relying on your WCS then you still deserve to be caught. If you're not afk there's a couple of options to you (most have been stated earlier)
- use a scout
- MWD back to the gate
- use the MWD/cloak trick
If you do any of these, or even better a combination, then you're almost uncatchable. Put in the effort to secure your assets, if you don't they can go poof.
Simple as that.
I'm looking for a home |
Kilhu Emmek
Minmatar
Redshift Industrial
|
Posted - 2008.04.26 11:01:00 -
[30]
Yeah. Bringing infinite points to low sec was bad enough, introducing them to high-sec war enables all kinds of nastiness.
That said, they can (and are) effectively turned against "low sec flashies" quite often. Gate camps in the area I'm active have disappeared since the "bad guys" suffered some very expensive losses.
I'll be a little sad to see them get balanced, because of this. Nothing quite like turning a trap around on someone.
--
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