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Princess Kyky
Caldari
I G N O T U S
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Posted - 2008.05.06 20:10:00 -
[91]
WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE
WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE |
Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.05.06 20:56:00 -
[92]
Very useful post that. |
Crystal Neverstar
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Posted - 2008.05.07 20:17:00 -
[93]
Lol
Well i guess my mains turn is coming sooner or later, then again i am on at random times, and i only have maybe 2-3 realy valuable items on my mains ship.
Why dont i post with my main? well duh!
Still if i am ganked i can replace the whole lot easier enough, and anyway mission running is only for a bit of pimped fun. Tradings where all the big isks at.
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OneSock
Crown Industries
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.05.08 10:50:00 -
[94]
You see the issue for me is that CCP seem to think the noobs are stupid and need protection. They say that if they took away insurance from concord events the noobs would leave in droves. Well I recall my experience as a noob and the basic message from the noob corps would have been, well you learnt the hard way, but you learnt. Someone may have given me some isk to cover my loss. I wouldn't have left the game over a single concordokken.
Had I known as a noob that in a couple years time having a shiny faction fit battleship really wouldn't be worth the bother I probably wouldn't have gone past the 14 day trial. I mean whats the point of investing a couple of years in a game to build up all that isk only to have a bunch of low life blow it up ?
So meh, I'm still in the game with a standard T2 fit battleship and no plans waste my isk on anything more expensive. Shame really.
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Niall Frost
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Posted - 2008.05.08 19:40:00 -
[95]
Lol, this thread *****s me up.
PvP is the best way to release aggression without real life consequences. Killing a carebear is even better, because they think that they are safe and complacent, are easy pickings, and best of all, they whine!
In the real world we can't do a lot of the fun stuff we wanna do. There are real-life consequences to breaking in a car, beating up somebody for the heck of it, robbing - assuming you get caught, of course, but you'd have to be a pretty young and immature chap to risk it. There are NO consequences to bullying on EVE, unless of course we meet someone tougher than we are, then our fault for not planning it properly. If we did get scrapped, then hey, fair game. It's the same with every online PvP enabled game.
For those of you complaining that you lose a 900 mil CNR while we only stand to lose a 40 mil after insurance, then something's wrong with the way you're playing it isn't it? You're not taking advantage of the SYSTEM. If it costs us less to blow you up than it costs you to do the same to us, is it our fault? Adapt to the system rather than force it to do what you want it to do. We're playing by the rules, and doing it well. Why do we do it? Because we can, and we don't have any obligation to make the world a better place for Carebears to live in. If the majority of EVE had a problem with that, we would have been hounded out of highsec completely.
Yes, we're antisocial. Yes, we may be losers in real life, but here we rule. If you don't like it you can always return to real-life - heaven knows how many people we've done a favour to and have happy productive family lives on the real world where they truly belong. Don't come here and expect CCP to act every time you bump into us. EVE is a player-run sandbox, and if the players feel so strongly about it, they should police the systems themselves. Pirates are part of Eve, and you just have to deal with us in-game. In many ways it's the same as the real world - if you're paranoid about driving through a rough neighbourhood, don't drive the Benz, and don't drive with the doors unlocked. In the real world, even in good clean neighbourhoods crime happens, and cars get broken into, peole get robbed - right in broad daylight. People are apathetic about it until it happens to them or their loved ones, same with on Eve. If you really feel strongly about it, do something - I'm sure we'll adapt to it and won't just whine!
Moral of EVE is "dont fly what you can't afford to lose". It was one of the first things taught to me, and it still holds true.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:05:00 -
[96]
 Originally by: Niall Frost
If it costs us less to blow you up than it costs you to do the same to us, is it our fault?
It doesn't cost "us" more to do the same to you, that's not what "we" are doing at all. In fact, "we" for the most part have no interest in doing the same to you.
I do my forays into low/no sec every now and then, and I can see myself joining a pvp corp (=/= pirate corp) some day when i have more time to play, but I will never suicide gank innocent victims or commit piracy in this game.
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Chelone
Stone Shadow Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:44:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
it's ******* hilarious when people go ape**** over losing virtual stuff in an internets spaceships game.
I'd love to watch your hypocritical reaction if your "meaningless virtual" Eve account was suddenly gone tomorrow. 
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Chelone
Stone Shadow Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:47:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Niall Frost
Lol, this thread *****s me up.
In the real world we can't do a lot of the fun stuff we wanna do. There are real-life consequences to breaking in a car, beating up somebody for the heck of it, robbing
If you want to do those things, there's something wrong with you.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.05.08 23:33:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Chelone
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
it's ******* hilarious when people go ape**** over losing virtual stuff in an internets spaceships game.
I'd love to watch your hypocritical reaction if your "meaningless virtual" Eve account was suddenly gone tomorrow.
The account is real, the stuff is virtual. Nice try though.
Not that I think it's outrageous that people get upset over losing virtual stuff either. It wouldn't be very "virtual" or interesting if losing it had no emotional weight whatsoever.
I just think it's important to take a step back and keep things in perspective, rather than, oh, say, making ridiculously angry rants about your imaginary spaceships getting blown up in a game that's largely about...
...imaginary spaceships getting blown up. 
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Chelone
Stone Shadow Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.09 00:14:00 -
[100]
Wrong. Your account is no less virtual than your spaceship. Especially with the support of GTC's - both can be paid for with real money, both are 0's and 1's contained on some computer somewhere. And both will make you angry if you lose them.
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Princess Gally
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Posted - 2008.05.09 01:07:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Princess Gally on 09/05/2008 01:09:01
Originally by: Niall Frost
Yes, we're antisocial. Yes, we may be losers in real life, but here we rule.
Originally by: Niall Frost
EVE is a player-run sandbox, and if the players feel so strongly about it, they should police the systems themselves.
How would you police an high-sec system? I'd really like to to know. In fact lots of guys out there would like to be able to do that...
Originally by: Niall Frost
Pirates are part of Eve, and you just have to deal with us in-game. In many ways it's the same as the real world - if you're paranoid about driving through a rough neighbourhood, don't drive the Benz, and don't drive with the doors unlocked. In the real world, even in good clean neighbourhoods crime happens, and cars get broken into, peole get robbed - right in broad daylight.
If you draw a parallel with RL, i'd say that RL insurances companies probably wouldn't refund a car used in a robbery... But comparison with RL is irrelevant anyway...
Originally by: Niall Frost
Moral of EVE is "dont fly what you can't afford to lose". It was one of the first things taught to me, and it still holds true.
That makes you a carebear. You fly a cheap ship in Empire (low risk) to gank very expensive PvE machines (big reward). Whereas your victim fly a CNR in Motsu (big risk) to work for the best agent (big reward). Do you get my point? You take almost no risk for a very high reward.
And just here is the flaw in the Empire risk/reward system that CCP will probably correct in a near future.
They won't forbid suicide ganks (and that's a good thing) to keep the world harsh, but they will raise the risk (or lower the reward) for the gankers.
Eve is a game. In a game, balance DOES matter.
-------------ONCOMING REVOLUTION------------
Miners united. Set your Trit prices to 8.00!
-------------------------------------------- |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.05.09 01:15:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Chelone
Wrong. Your account is no less virtual than your spaceship.
No, I'm right, and I think you'd realize you're saying something fundamentally absurd if you stopped to think about it. You're confusing "nonmaterial" with "virtual". The account isn't virtual, no more than the (nonmaterial) money you spent for it, or the(nonmaterial) fun you had using it. Your account is -actual-, it exists in the world, while your spaceships are merely simulated. The account doesn't simulate anything.
That's your ontology lesson for the day, kids. 
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Daan Sai
HAZCON Inc
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Posted - 2008.05.09 03:38:00 -
[103]
Look, I count myself as a nice player, but I would not have the PvP pirates limited for anything. In a virtual game like this, it is so hard to create the sense of excitement and genuine feeling of risk just through PvE AI rats.
Honestly, sneaking past Sex Panthers in a low sec system on a stupid COSMOS mission can be the highlight of a weeks play. Treating each mission and gate as a potential problem is what keeps it from becoming a total grind.
I don't plan on becoming a pirate, but long may they yarr! It is what makes the unsharded world of Eve so coooooooool!
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Foshi Zell
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Posted - 2008.05.09 22:32:00 -
[104]
That's your ontology lesson for the day, kids.
May St. Anselm Bless you
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Iluan Sert
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Posted - 2008.05.10 02:05:00 -
[105]
I've joined the game 2 months ago and I haven't been "abused" from any player yet... too fresh of a noob probably, but not so naive 
A few people in the previous posts sound so arrogant, so full of it. Why do they despise the so called "carebears" ? Don't they realize that industrious and peaceful players actually fuel the whole economy ? If they really enjoy the game a few people really should prove themselves more tolerant and act like respectful hunters towards the preys they're feeding on.
Ganking along numerous mates against a single PVE fitted player sounds intended in the game mechanics. I totally accept it but I really can't see the fun of it. My fault I guess, I must have greater aspirations...
I'd like to reverse the point of view of the "proud" gankers and ask a simple question. Why do they enjoy so much free and riskless agression ? Why can't they prove themselves worthy and join a war to fight people who are willing to ? In fact, who really are the carebears ?
Coming from years of FPS games, I've met all kind of weird people who think anonymous virtuality allows any kind of cowardry and lack of responsability.
The fun taken from hurting people isn't only stupid and childish. It shows evidence of intimate problems, since such behaviour usually comes from self esteem doubts or from any emotional frustration.
All players are people from RL who got unleashed in a consequence free world. Expect to witness the worst human beings are capable of, before their best.
Originally by: Niall Frost
Yes, we're antisocial. Yes, we may be losers in real life, but here we rule. If you don't like it you can always return to real-life - heaven knows how many people we've done a favour to and have happy productive family lives on the real world where they truly belong.
Why can't everyone share the same game ? Being a looser is a valid reason to act like a jerk ? Does it give any special property upon a virtual world ? Sounds very sick too me... Sad to always see people trying so hard to reduce their misery. Working on improving your own life and investing in a game aren't so exclusive though...
Originally by: Niall Frost
In the real world we can't do a lot of the fun stuff we wanna do. There are real-life consequences to breaking in a car, beating up somebody for the heck of it, robbing - assuming you get caught, of course, but you'd have to be a pretty young and immature chap to risk it.
Well, that was scary... I assumed only animals may see life this twisted...
@ Tsanse Kinske
The time and the energy you put in a game are real, just like those you spend at work to pay for this very game.
Consider there might be no virtuality in the effort spent to equip shiny stuff.
Tanks for your brillant lectures about ontology, but people in here aren't all kids. Got an ego problem as well ?
@ All Gankers
Piracy is fun. Although please understand people in high sec are not asking for PVP and don't even expect it (CCP's FAQ is very explicit about it). Feel free, but ask yourself why you get so much fun from it.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.05.10 03:13:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Iluan Sert
@ Tsanse Kinske
The time and the energy you put in a game are real, just like those you spend at work to pay for this very game.
Absolutely. And that time, energy, and fun we had can't be ganked.
Quote:
Tanks for your brillant lectures about ontology, but people in here aren't all kids. Got an ego problem as well ?
Oh definitely. But it wasn't really manifesting there. I'm sorry that neither the main content of my post nor the bit at the end that was meant to be self-effacing humor appealed to you.
Quote:
Coming from years of FPS games, I've met all kind of weird people who think anonymous virtuality allows any kind of cowardry and lack of responsability.
The fun taken from hurting people isn't only stupid and childish. It shows evidence of intimate problems, since such behaviour usually comes from self esteem doubts or from any emotional frustration.
If somebody really gets hurt by losing an imaginary spaceship in this game that they willingly participate in, where the danger of loss is supposed to be pervasive, and where piracy and destruction are supported playstyles along with everything else...whose responsibility is that truly?
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Iluan Sert
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Posted - 2008.05.10 10:04:00 -
[107]
I was simply telling that pirates don't have to respond of their virtual crimes in front of the community.
But what kind of satisfaction, beside looting rewards, is to get from piracy against defenseless players in high sec ? Such a low attitude is a lack of responsibility towards your own self in the first place, especially when it comes to pure vandalism as stated in a few previous posts.
A player running a mission in high sec shows very clearly he's not looking for any PVP. So what is right about ruining her/his enjoyment ? It's very intrusive and misrespectful to me. Everyone pays for the same game, but no one has the right to despise those who don't share the same way to play.
If you ever tried to demolish a kid's sand castle at the beach, you may have experienced retaliation from big brothers... Concord brings a clearful message : sand castles are guarded in high sec. Suicide ganking only proves retaliation isn't punishing enough atm.
This is fine though, since Eve's background is supposed to be wild and merciless. From a certain point of view online games are more real than RL, since virtual worlds make people free to reveal their true self.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.05.10 11:12:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Iluan Sert
@ All Gankers
Piracy is fun. Although please understand people in high sec are not asking for PVP and don't even expect it (CCP's FAQ is very explicit about it). Feel free, but ask yourself why you get so much fun from it.
Why? How about for starters, forum threads like this one? 
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kalistia
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Posted - 2008.05.10 11:24:00 -
[109]
OK gankers you got me convinced!
I will stop for a while my foolish carebear path.
From now on I will invest the majority of my time in suicide-ganking noobs
(particularly those still on trials). Just for the hell of it! I'm sure that between
the paid insurance and the vast amount of isks I have already grinded mindlessly
I will be able to go on for a long long time for the joy of the noobs involved and of CCP.
I will take particular pride for any noob that after such an harsh treatment
will leave the game forever. If my standing will lower too much I will just do
a few lvl 4 for standing and isk.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.05.10 22:13:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Iluan Sert
I was simply telling that pirates don't have to respond of their virtual crimes in front of the community.
Really? Because it sort of seemed more like a sanctimonious and mindblowingly hypocritical diatribe about how you think people should be playing the game; as well as some two-bit generalizations about the psychology of people you've never met. (And since that's simply the exact mirror image of the rants we get to read here about carebears, that would be quite amusing. Or would be if it weren't already so tediously common.)
Quote:
But what kind of satisfaction, beside looting rewards, is to get from piracy against defenseless players in high sec ? Such a low attitude is a lack of responsibility towards your own self in the first place, especially when it comes to pure vandalism as stated in a few previous posts.
A player running a mission in high sec shows very clearly he's not looking for any PVP. So what is right about ruining her/his enjoyment ? It's very intrusive and misrespectful to me. Everyone pays for the same game, but no one has the right to despise those who don't share the same way to play.
If you ever tried to demolish a kid's sand castle at the beach, you may have experienced retaliation from big brothers... Concord brings a clearful message : sand castles are guarded in high sec. Suicide ganking only proves retaliation isn't punishing enough atm.
This is fine though, since Eve's background is supposed to be wild and merciless. From a certain point of view online games are more real than RL, since virtual worlds make people free to reveal their true self.
Well I'll be damned, I guess my first impression was the correct one, you sly dog.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Osta N'Slick
Gallente
Galactic Praetorian and Fabrication Coterie
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Posted - 2008.05.11 02:54:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Osta N''Slick on 11/05/2008 02:54:33
Originally by: kalistia
OK gankers you got me convinced!
I will stop for a while my foolish carebear path.
From now on I will invest the majority of my time in suicide-ganking noobs
(particularly those still on trials). Just for the hell of it! I'm sure that between
the paid insurance and the vast amount of isks I have already grinded mindlessly
I will be able to go on for a long long time for the joy of the noobs involved and of CCP.
I will take particular pride for any noob that after such an harsh treatment
will leave the game forever. If my standing will lower too much I will just do
a few lvl 4 for standing and isk.
There's a slight difference between griefing noobs and pirating mission runners that fly around in faction fitted ships.
Eve is a player vs player game in every possible method of play. High-sec is not safe, its safer. There is no opt out of PvP.
If people cant grasp that they need to either convince CCP that the game needs changing or find another game.
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Riessa DeVarii
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Posted - 2008.05.11 05:36:00 -
[112]
Here's a thought.. don't run level 4's without friends?
Understand the risks and adapt accordingly.
If you're getting nailed in transit, treat high sec like low sec and use scouts, bring friends, and be prepared to fit pvp fitings, or simply stop fitting like a giant 'gank me' sign.
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kalistia
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Posted - 2008.05.11 08:12:00 -
[113]
Quote:
There's a slight difference between griefing noobs and pirating mission runners that fly around in faction fitted ships.
Is there really such a difference? 5 people ganking me in bs for profit
leave me no chance to survival risking themelselves very little according to the
game mechanincs. On the other side I can play in ways that helps me prevent such ganking.
Me ganking a noob for fun leave him/her no chance to survival risking myself
very little according to the game mechanincs. On the other side he/she can play in ways
that helps he/she prevent such ganking.
So the difference is only really in the motivation: profit vs fun and beeing
this a game in which the term "profit" is certainly to be taken "relatively" there isn't
really in my opinion any difference beetween high-sec ganking of mission-runners and griefing.
There would be differences if the game enforced consequences and real risks/costs to the gankers.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.11 08:50:00 -
[114]
Originally by: kalistia
Quote:
There's a slight difference between griefing noobs and pirating mission runners that fly around in faction fitted ships.
Is there really such a difference? 5 people ganking me in bs for profit
leave me no chance to survival risking themelselves very little according to the
game mechanincs. On the other side I can play in ways that helps me prevent such ganking.
Me ganking a noob for fun leave him/her no chance to survival risking myself
very little according to the game mechanincs. On the other side he/she can play in ways
that helps he/she prevent such ganking.
So the difference is only really in the motivation: profit vs fun and beeing
this a game in which the term "profit" is certainly to be taken "relatively" there isn't
really in my opinion any difference beetween high-sec ganking of mission-runners and griefing.
There would be differences if the game enforced consequences and real risks/costs to the gankers.
Actually I am fairly certain that most of the suiciders relish the thought of having ruined someone elses day (or even his entire EVE experience), so they do it for fun too...
You want ME for the CSM!
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
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Osta N'Slick
Gallente
Galactic Praetorian and Fabrication Coterie
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Posted - 2008.05.11 14:48:00 -
[115]
Originally by: kalistia
Quote:
There's a slight difference between griefing noobs and pirating mission runners that fly around in faction fitted ships.
Is there really such a difference? 5 people ganking me in bs for profit
leave me no chance to survival risking themelselves very little according to the
game mechanincs. On the other side I can play in ways that helps me prevent such ganking.
Me ganking a noob for fun leave him/her no chance to survival risking myself
very little according to the game mechanincs. On the other side he/she can play in ways
that helps he/she prevent such ganking.
So the difference is only really in the motivation: profit vs fun and beeing
this a game in which the term "profit" is certainly to be taken "relatively" there isn't
really in my opinion any difference beetween high-sec ganking of mission-runners and griefing.
There would be differences if the game enforced consequences and real risks/costs to the gankers.
There are real risks / costs. Thats why they're very selective about targets.
Motivation is not just a small factor either. Griefing new players is punished by CCP for obvious reason. Piracy is an intended game mechanic no matter where in the galaxy you are or what you're doing.
Whether the current risk / reward system is balanced I don't know. But I've yet to see an arguement that convinces me it isnt. The feeling I get is that many wont be happy till they can cruise around empire risk free in a ship with 3 billion of mods.
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Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.05.11 15:00:00 -
[116]
I'm no expert myself, I've never lost a faction fitted ship to suicide ppl (I did lose an empty industrial though :S ) but from what I can understand, one of the problems is that it can be done with a bunch of alts that are like 2 weeks old.
Imo, something should be done about that, so that the ppl who in the end make money from it have to come out and show their faces.
It helps improving the safety of the ppl who are afraid of being ganked, because they know who to look out for and it fixes the low risk vs high reward "problem" when the ppl doing the ganking lose a few mil in fittings because they get their insurance while they make a bil or 2 in case of a good strike.
Another thing that could be one would be spreading the high quality agents out or creating more, so the folks with the expensive ships are scattered and ppl need to look frot hm instead of sitting infront of this Motsu station, scanning every CNR they see.
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Dianeces
Minmatar
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.05.11 17:14:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Hanneshannes
but from what I can understand, one of the problems is that it can be done with a bunch of alts that are like 2 weeks old.
You understand wrong. Thanks for playing.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.05.11 18:03:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 11/05/2008 18:14:14
Originally by: Osta N'Slick
There are real risks / costs. Thats why they're very selective about targets.
No there aren't. The worst.....the only "risk" is a ninjalooter stealing the loot....but don't be fooled in thinking the ganker is risking the modules dropped by the missionrunner, they didn't bring that to the table. Thats what the missionrunner risks, NOT what the ganker risks. The only thing the ganker brought, and thus the only thing they risk, is the cost of the suicide ships. Plus the small mandatory duty of *earning* isk from PvE, to raise sec rating after several ganks. But that could just as well be counted against the cost of the suicide ships, since it's positive isk flow. And if you really want to get technical, these are not really risks, they are certainties, whether they succeed or fail in the ganking.
The price for failure is so miniscule it's bs to talk about "real risks".
Some claim 40 mil for a Raven, haven't done the math on that ship. But you can get at least two different 800 - 1000 dps BS for as little as 0-10mil total cost after all is said and done. I'd have to redo the calcs with the most recent mineral prices to get an exact figure. That's with MY skills, btw, not some all lvl 5 char.
Oh, and for the spin doctors claiming you can risk time...you can't. As there is no automatic positive isk flow, there is no loss from wasting time. "Wasting time" is the term you are looking for, not "risking time". For there to be risk, there needs to be potential loss. You can no more loose time then you can gain, stockpile, buy or sell time. That we often speak of loosing time, or gaining time, doesn't change this fact. (And no, buying play time does not change this, as you haven't lost your playing time if you fail in ganking)
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Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.05.11 18:32:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Hanneshannes
but from what I can understand, one of the problems is that it can be done with a bunch of alts that are like 2 weeks old.
You understand wrong. Thanks for playing.
Cool :D
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Osta N'Slick
Gallente
Galactic Praetorian and Fabrication Coterie
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Posted - 2008.05.11 21:10:00 -
[120]
OK, remove the word "risks" from my post if it makes you happy.
But costs exist, not just the ship. Time invested waiting for a worthwhile time, and the sec status cost that will eventually require them to spend considerable time fixing before they can strike in high sec again.
Its because of these costs they dont just pick a Raven at random and gank it... they want a target of a certain worth. Bearing in mind we're talking a a reasonably sized gang splitting the loot and that most of the modules will be destroyed, certain worth is usually counted in the billions.
For me, empire is working "as it should" and those that are worthy targets have it in their own power to minimize their risk. Moving expensive cargo - dont afk fly in a tech 1 industrial. Dont want to lose a faction fitted CNR? Stay out of major hubs or replace some of the set-up with t2.
I dont like pirates either. Truth be told I've often though many of them are just griefers pretending to be pirates.
But piracy has its place in the sandbox just like everything else. Any changes to high sec to reduce piracy could eliminate it altogether. Which is what many want it seems.
Its a sad state of affairs when many empire players want high sec turned into carebearland and many 0.0 players want eve to be one big gankfest.
Why cant people understand that not everyone wants the same the same thing from eve and keep demanding that players do this, that or whatever.
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