EVE Search - Why not embrace RMT and macros?

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Why not embrace RMT and macros?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Chigun	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:36:00 - [31] Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 12:41:15 Oh, and Nav, thanks for restoring my faith in the CCP dev team. I was afraid you were all as short sighted and rude as Prism. I'm just trying to have a reasonable discussion on how to change the game so we can restabilize the economy and remove all the drunk uncles from our little picnic. But again I have to ask, if everyone is so again ISK buying, who's buying it? You're right Manasi. I don't know why people want to buy ISK, but someone out there does and it's destroying our economy. We need to stop the scourge one way or another. I just recommend starving them to death rather then trying to beat them to death.
YunFu Yan Yan Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:39:00 - [32] Edited by: YunFu Yan on 29/04/2008 12:44:46 Hmm, I am bored so I'll give my 2 cents on this topic too. (Not that it hasn't been discussed enough thou.) 1. Maco-Miners/Missioners They hurt you! They hurt you! They hurt you! Got it? No? Ok, let me explain: Time and therefore resources in Eve are NOT free. You pay to play. To enjoy your gaming experience you will have to sustain a certain income. It doesn't matter if you mine or run missions, pirate or trade, you will have to spend gaming time on it. Macroers do not spend their time on these activities. They automate them and even worse, use multiple accounts to do so. Due to that ISK are nearly cost free to them. Lets assume that the average Eve player spends 2 hours per day in game. Then he actually only uses 60 of the 690 subscription hours/month he payed for. A single macro runs 23/7 in the worst case and thereby has an ISK input into the economy that is more than 10 times higher than that of a normal player. It's that ISK influx that hurts each and every normal players. Even those who actually buy the ISK of the macroers! The demand for goods in the Eve economy is only rising when new players enter the game. The amount of ISK in the system however is rising constantly and at a frightening rate! This leads to a devaluation of the currency, also known as inflation. An example for extreme inflation is the pre-WW1 Germany where the authorities were basicly printing money to pay reparations to the winning war parties. This lead to such an extreme devaluation of the currency that factory workers got payed every 2 hours and had to use wheelbarrows to carry their daily income home! We#re talking paper money here. Personally, I own several Reichsmark notes (the currency back then). One of them, a 1 Trillion Reichsmark note is not even printed on both sides simply because the paint would have cost more than the note itself if they printed both sides. So what does inflation mean for Eve? 2 things: a) Prices increase, b) you get alot less for your money. If macroers and RMT would be legalized, we would very soon reach a point where it would be impossible to sustain an income without playing 23/7. So more and more people would rely on macros and we'd take the whole thing another step further. At that point you'd need multiple macros to sustain your activities on a single account. A total collaps of the economy would follow. ------------------------------------------------- Yan Enterprises - We mean business.
YunFu Yan Yan Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:42:00 - [33] 2. Why RMT not equals ETC-trading Thats an easy one and you should already know if you read my other post... With no macroing, the ISK come from real players an therefor not provide an extra influx of currency into the economy. Simply put, it's just someone else paying my subscription instead of myself. He spends less time on sustaining his income, I spend more on sustaining mine. ------------------------------------------------- Yan Enterprises - We mean business.
CoLe Blackblood Transnational Speedway League	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:43:00 - [34] gas will go up to 5 dollars a gallon, and we'll be in iraq for 5 years and the oil companies will continue to make more every year. ooo wait...
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Chigun Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 12:16:08 Wow only two people actually trying to discuss the topic. Lord Huar, you're right allowing GTCs to be sold for ISK is the same. But there is a fine difference between trading a GTC, and buying ISK. I'm not sure what it is, but if it's anything more then price, CCP needs to figure out what it is and meet that need. As it is, they've set the price of ISK by allowing the trading of GTCs. A 30 day GTC will never sell for more ISK then a player can make in 30 Days, so CCP can either control that by adjusting income levels, or they can sell ISK directly and more accurately control the price. CCP simply cannot sell ISK directly, even if it was something that the playerbase wants? Why? Economics. Inflation is measured by the amount of ISK going into the economy vs. the amount of ISK leaving it - it's important economically that CCP limit inflation in order to keep the economy well-oiled. If CCP sold ISK directly, they would have to: 1. Undercut RMT prices 2. Inject ISK directly into the economy In order to compete with RMTs, they would basically have to sell a lot of ISK at very low prices, which would cause inflation in the economy to skyrocket. In a year we'd be paying 300 million ISK for tier 1 battleships. A result if this is that mission running and ratting will no longer become a profitable activity unless mission rewards and rat bounties are increased, which only creates more inflation. It's generally a very bad thing. Quote: All I'm saying is why can't they legitimize the practice, then adjust the market and gameplay to make the prospect so unprofitable it goes away. Then the only time someone might buy ISK is to recover from a big loss. The best thing that CCP can do to control the market is through GTCs, which provide a legal way to purchase ISK without having a negative impact on inflation. GTCs do compete with ISK sellers, not in price but in risk of use. That helps keep them in check. Quote: I'm not saying make it easier, but rather then have a zero tolerance policy that only makes it harder to catch the cheats. Rather then try to legislate morality, regulate it. Regulate it right out of the game by telling people they can do it, but make it so undesirable no one will bother. Or why not alter the game mechanics and still make it illegal, leading to it's eradication even faster? Quote: And for the trolls who responded so far. Sounds like you've been against ISK selling from day one. If so why aren't you protesting GTC trading? That's legitimized ISK selling. If you accept GTC trading you've already accepted ISK selling. If everyone else is protesting ISK selling so much, who's out there buying it all? Many people do. I'm not one of them, but only because the GTC trade is the only viable economic alternative and because it allows players with more Real Life money to subsidize the gameplay of those who don't. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Chigun Oh, and Nav, thanks for restoring my faith in the CCP dev team. I was afraid you were all as short sighted and rude as Prism. Prism's answer was completely appropriate. I for one am glad they show some humanity. ...
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:47:00 - [37] Originally by: Chigun Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 12:41:15 Oh, and Nav, thanks for restoring my faith in the CCP dev team. I was afraid you were all as short sighted and rude as Prism. I'm just trying to have a reasonable discussion on how to change the game so we can restabilize the economy and remove all the drunk uncles from our little picnic. But again I have to ask, if everyone is so again ISK buying, who's buying it? You're right Manasi. I don't know why people want to buy ISK, but someone out there does and it's destroying our economy. We need to stop the scourge one way or another. I just recommend starving them to death rather then trying to beat them to death. Forgery is a crime, but just because everyone wants more money it doesn't mean that the best way to beat counterfeiters is for the government to print more banknotes. Vastly expanding the money supply effectively steals from those who already have legitimately acquired ISK. Hyperinflation is rarely a healthy thing for economies to experience (I say "rarely" - perhaps you can give me an example of beneficial hyperinflation?) CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:47:00 - [38] Originally by: CCP Navigator Please keep your replies related to EVE Online. It is also improtant to note that you should remain civil and polite when replying even if you disagree with the OP's sentiments. Play nice Meh, I thought my comment was a very good metaphor for why GMT shouldn't be embraced. It's a disease on EVE. Meh, edgy I guess. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
manasi Caldari Ceptacemia Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:50:00 - [39] Please do not beat up the developer for expressing in a very short post what most of us feel. Money does not power EvE Players do Those who do not actively play ( macro user) or who sell money (ISK farmers) should be killed on sight ( within the game)
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Chigun Oh, and Nav, thanks for restoring my faith in the CCP dev team. I was afraid you were all as short sighted and rude as Prism. Yeah. You're a smart one It's really very simple: If selling ISK becomes legal, people with lots of RL money will buy lots of it and those that don't (or can't) won't be able to compete. END - OF - STORY GTCs differ in this regard, in that there is NOT a bottomless pit of players who can afford to buy a GTC with their ISK, thus inflation does not occur on anything near the scale it would if your fabulous idea were implemented. PS: do you happen to fly a mining barge or industrial in 0.7 space or lower? 1. Buy Vexor 2. Fit for Gank 3. Suicide ISK farmer 4. Grind sec 5. see 1.
Chigun	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:58:00 - [41] I'm not reading anything that makes your point Yun. So far all your arguments for why GTC trading vs. ISK selling don't make any sense. CCP does not have to undercut isk farmers, because they could provide a more secure service. As far as the marcoing. You say it would inflate the economy like Post-WWI Germany. But what about increasing the risk for using macros? You could stop them from running 23/7 and draining whole systems by making them free targets for pirates. You let Goon Swarm attack macro miners with impunity and I'm pretty sure the market would fix it's self. If Concord won't step in to save the macro miners, then the farmers will have to bring guards and the whole economy of the situation goes down the tubes. But the macros will still be there for those players that find mining boring. They can log on for your proposed 2 hours a day. Send their mining ship off and play by clearing the belt of rats and PC pirates while the macro runs. The player time would still have to be invested to make it work, but it could be invested in a play style those players would enjoy more. Me I like mining and building.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:58:00 - [42] Originally by: Chigun Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 12:41:15 I was afraid you were all as short sighted and rude as Prism. Merely pointing out the slippery slope in your suggestion. I thought it would be a lot nicer than my actual take on your suggestion. But I guess I cannot please everyone. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Lona Lwyd	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:58:00 - [43] I agree with the op, also, to give the "real miners" an advantage, every person listed as a real miner mines 1000% than they would normaly do, so every one would be happy
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:03:00 - [44] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Chigun Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 12:41:15 I was afraid you were all as short sighted and rude as Prism. Merely pointing out the slippery slope in your suggestion. I thought it would be a lot nicer than my actual take on your suggestion. But I guess I cannot please everyone. If it's any comfort, I'm very pleased to see you guys posting on the forums again. And the OP is confusing "disagreement" with "rudeness" and "trolling". A sign that he himself is in fact a troll. (I say nothing of El'tar appearing in this thread...) CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:04:00 - [45] Originally by: CCP Prism X But I guess I cannot please everyone. You're a Dev, so of course you can't. The heat death of the universe will become before you can do that on these forums,
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Chigun I'm not reading anything that makes your point Yun. So far all your arguments for why GTC trading vs. ISK selling don't make any sense. CCP does not have to undercut isk farmers, because they could provide a more secure service. They'd still be injecting ISK directly into the economy, which would cause runaway inflation. Quote: As far as the marcoing. You say it would inflate the economy like Post-WWI Germany. But what about increasing the risk for using macros? You could stop them from running 23/7 and draining whole systems by making them free targets for pirates. You let Goon Swarm attack macro miners with impunity and I'm pretty sure the market would fix it's self. If Concord won't step in to save the macro miners, then the farmers will have to bring guards and the whole economy of the situation goes down the tubes. But the macros will still be there for those players that find mining boring. They can log on for your proposed 2 hours a day. Send their mining ship off and play by clearing the belt of rats and PC pirates while the macro runs. The player time would still have to be invested to make it work, but it could be invested in a play style those players would enjoy more. Me I like mining and building. What would happen is that players wishing to macro-mine would just use the illegal tools that didn't flag them to CCP as macro-miners and as such wouldn't carry the "free pirating" risk that you spoke of. In addition, anyone who wanted to make even an attempt at an honest living mining without downloading an illegal programs would be instantly pirated and griefed out of the industry because at that point NOT macro-mining makes it impossible to compete with those who do macro-mine. Honestly, I feel like this solution takes much more time and effort to implement than is spent banning macro-miners, and I consider their banning a better alternative. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Chigun Since it seems like most players will never buy ISK You should ask yourself WHY that is. I am willing to bet that if buying ISK for money were made legal(without hassles as GTC, and more "profit"), most player would buy money. Currently, they don't because it either doesn't pay off, or is illegal. A few still might not do so because personal ethics, but most of those probably will abandon the game, or start playing differently(i.e. "Risk? What Risk? If it happens I BUY another ship"). A game were money can be bought can hardly be taken serious. After all, whatever you do in-game is of no value, only what you do out-of-game (i.e. buying money) has consequences. Skills not enough? Buy a bigger gun. Or a faction gun. After all, it's just money. Also, of course, using out-of-game measures to get in-game advantages is not very sportsmanlike. ("Fair" isn't a word I'd use in Eve.)
Chigun	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:09:00 - [48] Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 13:12:22 Thank you Lona, you see what I'm getting at. And that's an idea I hadn't considered, bonuses for not macroing. Or a yield penalty for macroing. I had only considered making them easy targets. What else would you do to adjust the economy around mining? And Prism, if you want to make a valid point, don't use sarcasm. It's a close minded stance. Give me some valid points why you think I'm wrong. Or why my idea couldn't work, is there some technical reason? I would be concerned about the server load if macroing we allowed on even a modest level. And Cyberman, explain micro transaction MMOs in Korea, and China? I mean that as a valid question, how is the failure you're proposing different from the thriving, vibrant RMT MMOs?
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:12:00 - [49] Edited by: Tarminic on 29/04/2008 13:12:19 Originally by: Chigun And that's an idea I hadn't considered, bonuses for not macroing. Or a yield penalty for macroing. I had only considered making them easy targets. What else would you do to adjust the economy around mining? I think he was being sarcastic... If you provide an in-game method of macroing, any method of "balancing" it in order to benefit real miners will just mean players use illegal macros instead. If you don't create and disadvantages, it will make it impossible for the average miner to make a living without using it. In the end, you have an unused macro-mining mechanic and a heap of wasted effort and time developing it, or mandatory a mechanic used by every miner that makes mining even MORE boring. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
YunFu Yan Yan Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:14:00 - [50] Originally by: Chigun ...But what about increasing the risk for using macros?... Why tweak the game mechancis towards something that is and clearly should NOT be part of the game? Also, why do macroers macro? It's not like they need the money to play EVE, do they? They do it to make real money. Our game is nothing but a resource to them. They will harvest it until it is depleted or something more profitable comes up. They don't mind destroying the game in the process. The major difference between RMT and ETC-Trading is that, when trading a time code, ISK is essentially exchanged for game time and NOT for money! Gametime is limited for both sides and ideally we'd have an equillibrium there. While with RMT isk is exchanged for money and those ISK are generated not by players but by "machines" for one purpose alone: To make money. If CCP was to sell ISK, they would kill their own game within less than a year. (I already explained how so.) You need ISK? Then play Eve! You need money? Then get a job! You job leaves you with too little time to make ISK? Sell a time code. You're a student with too little money and too much time? Buy a timce code. You're a macro-miner/ratter? Get the f*ck off my server! ------------------------------------------------- Yan Enterprises - We mean business.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:18:00 - [51] The point of GTCs is that it cannot get out of hand. The more people want to sell GTCs for isk the less isk per GTC because there is a lot less demand for GTCs than there is for money. Period. People will always want more RL money but if you gave me a grand's worth of gametime I'd probably not use much of it. A grand of actual cash... I could spend that tomorrow. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Chigun	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:21:00 - [52] Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 13:24:13 Good point, Tarminic. The only way I could think of to combat that would be design the client as an almost server/client on the local machine. The virtual server on the players machine could monitor the transactions and decide on macro status or not. The reason to split the client would be to secure the server portion. Then it could be encrypted and adjusted quickly, without having to secure the entire client. Maybe it could be downloaded every session. But I still wonder what the effect would by simply allowing players to "mine" by pvping as I suggested above. And Adonis, that's why I suggested letting CCP manage the transaction, and then applying the money to you account for future game time, or even purchasing ISK from another player. You have say $100 on account wth CCP, you subscription is charged to that before you credit card along with any ISK you buy from other players until it runs out, then your credit card is charged. But you have no way of withdrawing that money. Like Wii or Microsoft points, cash goes in but never comes out. That way it has the same limitation you stated.
YunLi Yan	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Chigun The only way I could think of to combat that would be design the client as an almost server/client on the local machine. Spying on other tasks running on a machine is probably illegal in many nations. Blizzard tried it and got sued over it.
Chigun	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:27:00 - [54] Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 13:27:31 I never said you'd monitor other tasks, it could just be a secure portion of the game client. Also, you could spy on the rest of the tasks if you wanted too. If you warn the player it's legal. Punkbuster has been doing it for years with Counterstrike.
manasi Caldari Ceptacemia Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:27:00 - [55] Originally by: YunFu Yan You need ISK? Then play Eve! You need money? Then get a job! You job leaves you with too little time to make ISK? Sell a time code. You're a student with too little money and too much time? Buy a time code. You're a macro-miner/ratter? Get the f*ck off my server! AMEN...if your a macro miner/ ISK seller get out of the game, I certainly do not want you in it, you add NOTHING TO this game.
Lord Haur Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:29:00 - [56] anyway, who says that "macromine1" has to have an executable called "macromine1"? surely the coders could name the executable something like "msprocess123"? unless you want to monitor EVERY SINGLE program running to see if it is a macro, which would create huge lag.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:30:00 - [57] I wasn't being sarcastic.. I was giving you an example on where thinking like that will lead to. I prefer to tackle the logical side first before wasting time on my opinion. Rules aren't there to be bent and broken because it's more convenient. They're there because they're better for society as whole, even if they're inconvenient to some, than their absence. Take the speed limit on urban roads for example. You can also see the other player responses on the economic effect of trying to compete with ISK farmers especially once you make it easier for them to macro it up. No need for me to reiterate that. You already have my opinion on the logic behind the idea so implementation is moot. I'd also like to ask you to refrain from demanding how I conduct myself on the forums. You're under no obligation to listen to anything I say nor am I under any obligation to post here. I'll leave you to your topic rather than insult you any further with my conduct. Thank you. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Chigun And Adonis, that's why I suggested letting CCP manage the transaction, and then applying the money to you account for future game time, or even purchasing ISK from another player. You have say $100 on account wth CCP, you subscription is charged to that before you credit card along with any ISK you buy from other players until it runs out, then your credit card is charged. But you have no way of withdrawing that money. Like Wii or Microsoft points, cash goes in but never comes out. That way it has the same limitation you stated. This exists. It's called GTC trading. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Chigun	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:39:00 - [59] Edited by: Chigun on 29/04/2008 13:43:47 Lord Huar, all I can say is DUH. Go read up on Punkbuster and the anti-cheating methods in Unreal Tournament. This sort of analysis is being done already and very successfully. Adonis, you see my point exactly then. I'm asking why not strip away the pretense of GTCs and trading partial game time by using RMTs where I can't withdraw the money. This should satisfy all the people who don't want to go through the trouble of trading GTCs. Rather then have to commit to trading in 30 Day blocks, players could trade a day at a time. Most easily done with RMTs. Is it that CCP just doesn't want to bother? I really want to know what it would take to change the game to make the current black market obsolete. And Tar, i see your point, it probably would be a lot of work. What would recommend the fix the problem then, as banning them doesn't seem to be fixing the problem. Or is the current state of macro mining and inflation being over exaggerated and the banning is working? Is there even a problem? Because if not then obviously nothing needs to be done.
YunFu Yan Yan Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Chigun I'm asking why not strip away the pretense of GTCs and trading partial game time by using RMTs where I can't withdraw the money. Your money is your money and stays your money until you trade it for commodities or services. CCP could never legally prevent you from withdrawing your money. ------------------------------------------------- Yan Enterprises - We mean business.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.