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Simple Black ops fix.

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White Ronin	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:59:00 - [1] Double the sensor resolution. No that does not solve the fuel problem but it does make them viable in a situation where uncloakng and locking are the end-all-be-all. Simple.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.29 22:13:00 - [2] Brilliant. Your logic and insight, gets right to the bottom of the core problem of the ship class, and will provide an unparalleled level of adjustment to their operation, and usage. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
motomysz DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.30 04:28:00 - [3] I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine.
TimMc Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.04.30 06:09:00 - [4] Originally by: James Lyrus Brilliant. Your logic and insight, gets right to the bottom of the core problem of the ship class, and will provide an unparalleled level of adjustment to their operation, and usage.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.30 18:12:00 - [5] Originally by: motomysz I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine. Agree, yet disagree to many things. Black ops are pretty much a Stealth Bombers big brother. Yet even then, there are huge failings in comparson. Such as as you've said - The scan res penalty. But ontop of that, is also the cloak/decloak timer, being normal. Last i checked stealth bombers werent hindered with such a timer (or not to the degree of 30 seconds). Then theres lock range, ontop of the fuel bay, and jump range. And then theres the overall use of the ship even with all that fixed.
Kyreax Neuronix	Posted - 2008.04.30 18:40:00 - [6] I need some love for my Sin. I agree the jump drive needs either more range or use less fuel. Replace the last rig slot I'm missing (only 2?) Needs better lock range, at least 25% more. --------------------------------------------------- It's a Templar, an Amarr Fighter used by Carriers.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:06:00 - [7] Like my navy apoc, I am still waiting for a single reason to assemble this useless pile of.... -- Billion Isk Mission
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: motomysz I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine. Agree, yet disagree to many things. Black ops are pretty much a Stealth Bombers big brother. Yet even then, there are huge failings in comparson. Such as as you've said - The scan res penalty. But ontop of that, is also the cloak/decloak timer, being normal. Last i checked stealth bombers werent hindered with such a timer (or not to the degree of 30 seconds). Then theres lock range, ontop of the fuel bay, and jump range. And then theres the overall use of the ship even with all that fixed. No, they are not big SBs... Should you think them like big SBs, you indirectly suggest that these monsters should be able to decloak, almost-insta-lock and almost-insta-pop ships of their class? Black-Ops = their ability to create mobile covert jump bridges. Think it as a small titan & recon hybrid without covert ops cloak. Surely NOT an SB, with the cloaking speed bonus being the only similarity. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:55:00 - [9] Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 19:55:57 This is a specialty ship not a pwn everything ship. Come on guys. The focus of the ship should be jumping recon ships around. Not pwning everything. I say, keep the poor resolution and keep the focus of the ship on what it's suppose to do. And that would be, creating jumps for recons. So anyone that says, hey, why do I have bad lock time or range. I say, because your using the ship for what it was not made to do. There's a logic to it. Don't bring a dread to kill a frig. If anyone were to plead a buff because his dread couldn't kill a frig, he would be laughed at for all eternity. In the same manner, you all are asking for the ship to do something that it wasn't made to do. It wasn't made to be in the middle of the battle, it was made to bring the battle. Okay, so the role that it has is not being fulfilled. So give it a reduction in fuel and maybe a separate hangar and your good. Anything more and the ship is being changed into something that it wasn't meant to be. Amarr is the tank OR gank race. Not the tank and gank race.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:27:00 - [10] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2008 20:31:14 As someone who has a Blackops, can someone tell me what I should do with it other than as a assistant to my Cov Ops Hauler (Pilgrim) Now before someone says "Oh use it to pass camps with recons", surely a recon has to get past the camp itself to setup a covert cyno? The Nanogang would just charge past the camp anyway. Then someone will say - use it to set traps. Its hard enough getting people to fight, if it could moves hics and dictors thorugh then yeah. Otherwise its not exactly that impressive trapping a bunch of pilots with recons given that the mark's will make a run for it. Especially when a covert cyno needs to be opened by a recon.... a rather weak ship. I am just waiting for CCP to increase Redeemer's cargo to carry more fuel. Then it will become next to my Cov Ops hauler(pilgrim) as a Cloaking jumpdrive Hauler that leaves no obvious cyno trail for enemies to warp to (disadvantage of carrier). How does CCP actually envisage pvp for Black ops pilots like myself to use? It needs some serious reworking so that the ship can work with hic's and dictors otherwise, like I said, Cloaking Jump drive hauler to be used alongside my cov ops hauler (pilgrim) -- Billion Isk Mission

Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:56:00 - [11] The problem with the Black Ops is that it doesn't do any of it's supposed roles very well. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:06:00 - [12] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2008 21:06:58 Originally by: Anubis Xian The problem with the Black Ops is that it doesn't do any of it's supposed roles very well. Even if it could do its "Supposed Roles", those roles are obsolete in todays pvp playstyle. I think the whole concept needs to be reworked again. -- Billion Isk Mission
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Waxau Originally by: motomysz I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine. Agree, yet disagree to many things. Black ops are pretty much a Stealth Bombers big brother. Yet even then, there are huge failings in comparson. Such as as you've said - The scan res penalty. But ontop of that, is also the cloak/decloak timer, being normal. Last i checked stealth bombers werent hindered with such a timer (or not to the degree of 30 seconds). Then theres lock range, ontop of the fuel bay, and jump range. And then theres the overall use of the ship even with all that fixed. No, they are not big SBs... Should you think them like big SBs, you indirectly suggest that these monsters should be able to decloak, almost-insta-lock and almost-insta-pop ships of their class? Black-Ops = their ability to create mobile covert jump bridges. Think it as a small titan & recon hybrid without covert ops cloak. Surely NOT an SB, with the cloaking speed bonus being the only similarity. You obviously fail in overall understanding of black ops. 1. Jump portal = Useless. You lack the fuel yourself to jump any reasonable size of gang through, and even then, you lack the fuel to get home yourself, let alone your gang. 2. Tank. Most black ops have crap tanks (having less hp than their t1 variants). Again, much the same as stealth bombers, but also lack overall tanking ability, other than a bit of odd damage heading their way. 3. We're talking about overall combat style with the cloak here. Uncloak, attack, cloak. Guerilla Warfare. Take the Widow. You uncloak to kill a target, and if you fail to hold the field in terms of your successfulness, you run, and hide. Exactly the same as a stealth bomber. Only difference is Black ops cant be instapopped by a single eagle. And the fact that you think that by referring to Black ops and instapop ships of their class....lol? Bombers can do that due to the fact that they have 2x higher weapon classes than their own (Light missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruise Missiles) and a explosion velocity bonus with the ship. Id love to see my Widow with 2x greater dps cruise missiles thx :P Honestly...the fact that you have in your mind the Black ops being just a jump portal generator/recon hybrid...lol? the only 'recon' style black ops is the widow, with ECM. All others have rather abnormal bonuses, which have near enough no value to recon duties. Combined with this, is the fact that its a 700 mil (fitted ofc) bs, that cant warp cloaked, and has a feeble tank. And then even more so, is that to carry any reasonable amount of fuel, you need ammo + fuel. Cap boosters? No. Hence most decent combat scenarios are a nono anyhow. Honestly....what angers me more than broken ships, are people who have no incline as to what they are, how they work, or what they even can do. Geez... just to confirm, you realise that only force recons, bombers, black ops, and cov ops frigs can go through the jump portal right? Kinda gathering you dont...
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2008 21:06:58 Originally by: Anubis Xian The problem with the Black Ops is that it doesn't do any of it's supposed roles very well. Even if it could do its "Supposed Roles", those roles are obsolete in todays pvp playstyle. I think the whole concept needs to be reworked again. totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Player X is in system. Hes a known cyno char. Player Y enters system. Hes a known black ops pilot. Who in their right mind wouldnt form a gang? I mean geez...You have yourself a 700 mil bs floating around, obviously wanting to pewpew. Its just a matter of time till he has to warp and such, to get a kill. There is zero role for a black ops, minus to catch offguard noobies.
Ja'kar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.30 23:22:00 - [15] that cant warp cloaked I simply cannot believe that!!! Why? really they could be great ships for a range of roles, I mostly want to hit and run, but why do CCP hate BS so much it's like the ship they wish they never had! crappy tank - crappy dps - slow locking - cloak timer - cannot warp when cloaked _ yah - great covert ship! MAFIA Website
Cutie Chaser Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.30 23:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Ja'kar crappy tank - crappy dps - slow locking - cloak timer - cannot warp when cloaked _ yah - great covert ship! On the contrary, what is more covert then a ship class you NEVER see anyone flying? :P *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Lawao Ansai	Posted - 2008.05.01 01:00:00 - [17] Humm... I am starting to think that training to balck ops will be a waste of my time... I would like somthing I can go explore the systems with without getting blown up alot... or attacked by people rats every where I go... I am very new to the game.. there will be time for PvP and PvE later.. right now I just want to explore the systems... any sugestions? thanks
White Ronin	Posted - 2008.05.01 05:40:00 - [18] Making their lock time reasonable would be a good step in the direction of fixing this ship. As another had mentioned using a 700mil ship that will need a cyno that they enemy will home in on is not the best of ideas. No cargo means no use as a covert 'bridge'. By only fixing the cargo/fuel issue without addressing its combat abilities makes it a stealth hauler and nothing more. As many have pointed out most other aspects of its 'purpose' really dont fit into the reality of how combat is conducted given the financial risks of using it for its role. You would have to blow up 5-7 tier one bs's to get your money out of it in the first place. Start simple. It is supposed to be a combat stealth ship. Fix the combat. Stealth is its 'hook' so make it so it can lock a target in a reasonable amount of time after decloaking. I love the idea of it using the covert ops cloak but honestly it would be the pwnmobile everyone fears in the first place then. Not that bad though if you figure that once decloaked it still targets like poo so most ships will have time to either lock it down and smash it up or leave. Just let it lock and use its ew to be its tank and see how that works first. Keep it simple and see what happens. Small fixes first and see how they work.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Lawao Ansai Humm... I am starting to think that training to balck ops will be a waste of my time... I would like somthing I can go explore the systems with without getting blown up alot... or attacked by people rats every where I go... I am very new to the game.. there will be time for PvP and PvE later.. right now I just want to explore the systems... any sugestions? thanks Covert Ops ship that can fit a Covert Ops Cloak -- Billion Isk Mission
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/05/2008 06:57:37 Originally by: Waxau totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Isn't it more that you can't open the cyno in half the systems in the game? Just letting them ignore cyno jammers would be a big start(What, are they going to siege your POS with Manticores and Pilgrims?) Vote Goumindong for CSM

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/05/2008 06:57:37 Originally by: Waxau totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Isn't it more that you can't open the cyno in half the systems in the game? Just letting them ignore cyno jammers would be a big start(What, are they going to siege your POS with Manticores and Pilgrims?) Even if they could ignore cynojammers, you are still left with the same fundamental problems with Black ops. -- Billion Isk Mission
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:51:00 - [22] I still say let Black Ops use all of their toys in high sec. And let Covert Cyno Gens also work in high sec. The Empire Jump Rules are designed for Capitals after all. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/05/2008 06:57:37 Originally by: Waxau totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Isn't it more that you can't open the cyno in half the systems in the game? Just letting them ignore cyno jammers would be a big start(What, are they going to siege your POS with Manticores and Pilgrims?) Not the issue at all tbh. Even if you could cyno into cynojammed system...what good would it do YOU? You cant jump bridge anything, due to the stupid fuel usage. You cant fight anything (if its a cynojammed system, most likely will be busy), so at any time you uncloak, there will be probes, and/or similar for you to contend with. And even then - As for the afore mentioned reasons - It just lacks any role. Having it able to cyno into cynojammed systems doesnt increase its role, but more expands on its lack of role.
Ja'kar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:20:00 - [24] not forgetting that not everyone wantso to use the cyno thing - some of us want to use to for a cloaked combat ship, not just for ganking - but for fun not letting it warped cloaked is very bad move just unforgivable!
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:50:00 - [25] Edited by: Captator on 01/05/2008 10:50:34 can a black ops jump electronic attack frigates? edit: and/or combat recons?
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:24:00 - [26] They would be even vaguely useable if they were literally big recons. Still no tank, no damage, but with reconish bonuses. And a covert cloak. Oh god they do need that.
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:39:00 - [27] If BlackOps are not supposed to do anything but jump recon ship... that's fine. But, please, make the skills necessary for such a ship reflect this non-combat transport role.... Make it a glorified, expensive, high-MERCHANT-skill demanding vessel. As it stands, combat pilots sitting in these things are a complete waste of skillpoints!!! If you want to fly them now, surely the only viable path is to specifically-train an alt
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.01 18:36:00 - [28] Haven't CCP actually stated that they released the black ops ships pre-nerfed? One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that if you have the skills to fly a black ops, you are a fair bit of the way towards capital ships - jump drive calibration 4 and BS 5, from scratch, are about 3 months. Another point: If CCP write code for a seperate fuel bay for these, then they will almost certainly nerf dreads and carriers by doing the same thing for them, thus further making it impossible to use either for jump hauling. And maybe give Rorquals seperate ore bays and stop these being used as well. This would fit in beautifully with CCP's hardon for the jump freighter - which is so broken it isn't funny. I completely fail to see the logic of those things being tech 2; by no means all jump-capable ships are tech 2. They already have a quarter of the capacity of ordinary freighters; isn't that disadvantage enough? The jump freighter being tech 2, as I see it, is designed (perhaps on purpose) to favour alliances big enough to have a titan or two, thus allowing the transporting around of ordinary freighters to wherever the heck you like (thus avoiding all manner of logistic problems) and giving certain ones free income (in the range of billions per week) by freighting stuff in bulk between the various pirate factions. BoD anyone? The defenseless of freighters is custom-designed to aid and abet gate gankers, but that's another story. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Kayoss IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:13:00 - [29] They really need the Covert Ops Cloak. I'm not gong to waste a 700 million ship in an enemy system without a resonable chance of surviving. And obviously the need room for more fuel.
Zakgram Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 07:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Kayoss They really need the Covert Ops Cloak. I'm not gong to waste a 700 million ship in an enemy system without a resonable chance of surviving. And obviously the need room for more fuel. The problem really is the bubble gate camp. These ships are so slow to move and align that you'll need a scout, and that scout is probably going to need to be in a cloaked ship, and handling 2 cloaked ships is just a bit of a pita.



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