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White Ronin	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:59:00 - [1] Double the sensor resolution. No that does not solve the fuel problem but it does make them viable in a situation where uncloakng and locking are the end-all-be-all. Simple.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.29 22:13:00 - [2] Brilliant. Your logic and insight, gets right to the bottom of the core problem of the ship class, and will provide an unparalleled level of adjustment to their operation, and usage. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
motomysz DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.30 04:28:00 - [3] I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine.
TimMc Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.04.30 06:09:00 - [4] Originally by: James Lyrus Brilliant. Your logic and insight, gets right to the bottom of the core problem of the ship class, and will provide an unparalleled level of adjustment to their operation, and usage.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.30 18:12:00 - [5] Originally by: motomysz I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine. Agree, yet disagree to many things. Black ops are pretty much a Stealth Bombers big brother. Yet even then, there are huge failings in comparson. Such as as you've said - The scan res penalty. But ontop of that, is also the cloak/decloak timer, being normal. Last i checked stealth bombers werent hindered with such a timer (or not to the degree of 30 seconds). Then theres lock range, ontop of the fuel bay, and jump range. And then theres the overall use of the ship even with all that fixed.
Kyreax Neuronix	Posted - 2008.04.30 18:40:00 - [6] I need some love for my Sin. I agree the jump drive needs either more range or use less fuel. Replace the last rig slot I'm missing (only 2?) Needs better lock range, at least 25% more. --------------------------------------------------- It's a Templar, an Amarr Fighter used by Carriers.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:06:00 - [7] Like my navy apoc, I am still waiting for a single reason to assemble this useless pile of.... -- Billion Isk Mission
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: motomysz I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine. Agree, yet disagree to many things. Black ops are pretty much a Stealth Bombers big brother. Yet even then, there are huge failings in comparson. Such as as you've said - The scan res penalty. But ontop of that, is also the cloak/decloak timer, being normal. Last i checked stealth bombers werent hindered with such a timer (or not to the degree of 30 seconds). Then theres lock range, ontop of the fuel bay, and jump range. And then theres the overall use of the ship even with all that fixed. No, they are not big SBs... Should you think them like big SBs, you indirectly suggest that these monsters should be able to decloak, almost-insta-lock and almost-insta-pop ships of their class? Black-Ops = their ability to create mobile covert jump bridges. Think it as a small titan & recon hybrid without covert ops cloak. Surely NOT an SB, with the cloaking speed bonus being the only similarity. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:55:00 - [9] Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 19:55:57 This is a specialty ship not a pwn everything ship. Come on guys. The focus of the ship should be jumping recon ships around. Not pwning everything. I say, keep the poor resolution and keep the focus of the ship on what it's suppose to do. And that would be, creating jumps for recons. So anyone that says, hey, why do I have bad lock time or range. I say, because your using the ship for what it was not made to do. There's a logic to it. Don't bring a dread to kill a frig. If anyone were to plead a buff because his dread couldn't kill a frig, he would be laughed at for all eternity. In the same manner, you all are asking for the ship to do something that it wasn't made to do. It wasn't made to be in the middle of the battle, it was made to bring the battle. Okay, so the role that it has is not being fulfilled. So give it a reduction in fuel and maybe a separate hangar and your good. Anything more and the ship is being changed into something that it wasn't meant to be. Amarr is the tank OR gank race. Not the tank and gank race.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:27:00 - [10] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2008 20:31:14 As someone who has a Blackops, can someone tell me what I should do with it other than as a assistant to my Cov Ops Hauler (Pilgrim) Now before someone says "Oh use it to pass camps with recons", surely a recon has to get past the camp itself to setup a covert cyno? The Nanogang would just charge past the camp anyway. Then someone will say - use it to set traps. Its hard enough getting people to fight, if it could moves hics and dictors thorugh then yeah. Otherwise its not exactly that impressive trapping a bunch of pilots with recons given that the mark's will make a run for it. Especially when a covert cyno needs to be opened by a recon.... a rather weak ship. I am just waiting for CCP to increase Redeemer's cargo to carry more fuel. Then it will become next to my Cov Ops hauler(pilgrim) as a Cloaking jumpdrive Hauler that leaves no obvious cyno trail for enemies to warp to (disadvantage of carrier). How does CCP actually envisage pvp for Black ops pilots like myself to use? It needs some serious reworking so that the ship can work with hic's and dictors otherwise, like I said, Cloaking Jump drive hauler to be used alongside my cov ops hauler (pilgrim) -- Billion Isk Mission

Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:56:00 - [11] The problem with the Black Ops is that it doesn't do any of it's supposed roles very well. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:06:00 - [12] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2008 21:06:58 Originally by: Anubis Xian The problem with the Black Ops is that it doesn't do any of it's supposed roles very well. Even if it could do its "Supposed Roles", those roles are obsolete in todays pvp playstyle. I think the whole concept needs to be reworked again. -- Billion Isk Mission
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Waxau Originally by: motomysz I disagree. Give them a role bonus: cloaks do not decrease scan resolution, and give them a seperate fuel bay. Then they'll be fine. Agree, yet disagree to many things. Black ops are pretty much a Stealth Bombers big brother. Yet even then, there are huge failings in comparson. Such as as you've said - The scan res penalty. But ontop of that, is also the cloak/decloak timer, being normal. Last i checked stealth bombers werent hindered with such a timer (or not to the degree of 30 seconds). Then theres lock range, ontop of the fuel bay, and jump range. And then theres the overall use of the ship even with all that fixed. No, they are not big SBs... Should you think them like big SBs, you indirectly suggest that these monsters should be able to decloak, almost-insta-lock and almost-insta-pop ships of their class? Black-Ops = their ability to create mobile covert jump bridges. Think it as a small titan & recon hybrid without covert ops cloak. Surely NOT an SB, with the cloaking speed bonus being the only similarity. You obviously fail in overall understanding of black ops. 1. Jump portal = Useless. You lack the fuel yourself to jump any reasonable size of gang through, and even then, you lack the fuel to get home yourself, let alone your gang. 2. Tank. Most black ops have crap tanks (having less hp than their t1 variants). Again, much the same as stealth bombers, but also lack overall tanking ability, other than a bit of odd damage heading their way. 3. We're talking about overall combat style with the cloak here. Uncloak, attack, cloak. Guerilla Warfare. Take the Widow. You uncloak to kill a target, and if you fail to hold the field in terms of your successfulness, you run, and hide. Exactly the same as a stealth bomber. Only difference is Black ops cant be instapopped by a single eagle. And the fact that you think that by referring to Black ops and instapop ships of their class....lol? Bombers can do that due to the fact that they have 2x higher weapon classes than their own (Light missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruise Missiles) and a explosion velocity bonus with the ship. Id love to see my Widow with 2x greater dps cruise missiles thx :P Honestly...the fact that you have in your mind the Black ops being just a jump portal generator/recon hybrid...lol? the only 'recon' style black ops is the widow, with ECM. All others have rather abnormal bonuses, which have near enough no value to recon duties. Combined with this, is the fact that its a 700 mil (fitted ofc) bs, that cant warp cloaked, and has a feeble tank. And then even more so, is that to carry any reasonable amount of fuel, you need ammo + fuel. Cap boosters? No. Hence most decent combat scenarios are a nono anyhow. Honestly....what angers me more than broken ships, are people who have no incline as to what they are, how they work, or what they even can do. Geez... just to confirm, you realise that only force recons, bombers, black ops, and cov ops frigs can go through the jump portal right? Kinda gathering you dont...
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2008 21:06:58 Originally by: Anubis Xian The problem with the Black Ops is that it doesn't do any of it's supposed roles very well. Even if it could do its "Supposed Roles", those roles are obsolete in todays pvp playstyle. I think the whole concept needs to be reworked again. totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Player X is in system. Hes a known cyno char. Player Y enters system. Hes a known black ops pilot. Who in their right mind wouldnt form a gang? I mean geez...You have yourself a 700 mil bs floating around, obviously wanting to pewpew. Its just a matter of time till he has to warp and such, to get a kill. There is zero role for a black ops, minus to catch offguard noobies.
Ja'kar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.30 23:22:00 - [15] that cant warp cloaked I simply cannot believe that!!! Why? really they could be great ships for a range of roles, I mostly want to hit and run, but why do CCP hate BS so much it's like the ship they wish they never had! crappy tank - crappy dps - slow locking - cloak timer - cannot warp when cloaked _ yah - great covert ship! MAFIA Website
Cutie Chaser Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.30 23:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Ja'kar crappy tank - crappy dps - slow locking - cloak timer - cannot warp when cloaked _ yah - great covert ship! On the contrary, what is more covert then a ship class you NEVER see anyone flying? :P *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Lawao Ansai	Posted - 2008.05.01 01:00:00 - [17] Humm... I am starting to think that training to balck ops will be a waste of my time... I would like somthing I can go explore the systems with without getting blown up alot... or attacked by people rats every where I go... I am very new to the game.. there will be time for PvP and PvE later.. right now I just want to explore the systems... any sugestions? thanks
White Ronin	Posted - 2008.05.01 05:40:00 - [18] Making their lock time reasonable would be a good step in the direction of fixing this ship. As another had mentioned using a 700mil ship that will need a cyno that they enemy will home in on is not the best of ideas. No cargo means no use as a covert 'bridge'. By only fixing the cargo/fuel issue without addressing its combat abilities makes it a stealth hauler and nothing more. As many have pointed out most other aspects of its 'purpose' really dont fit into the reality of how combat is conducted given the financial risks of using it for its role. You would have to blow up 5-7 tier one bs's to get your money out of it in the first place. Start simple. It is supposed to be a combat stealth ship. Fix the combat. Stealth is its 'hook' so make it so it can lock a target in a reasonable amount of time after decloaking. I love the idea of it using the covert ops cloak but honestly it would be the pwnmobile everyone fears in the first place then. Not that bad though if you figure that once decloaked it still targets like poo so most ships will have time to either lock it down and smash it up or leave. Just let it lock and use its ew to be its tank and see how that works first. Keep it simple and see what happens. Small fixes first and see how they work.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Lawao Ansai Humm... I am starting to think that training to balck ops will be a waste of my time... I would like somthing I can go explore the systems with without getting blown up alot... or attacked by people rats every where I go... I am very new to the game.. there will be time for PvP and PvE later.. right now I just want to explore the systems... any sugestions? thanks Covert Ops ship that can fit a Covert Ops Cloak -- Billion Isk Mission
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/05/2008 06:57:37 Originally by: Waxau totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Isn't it more that you can't open the cyno in half the systems in the game? Just letting them ignore cyno jammers would be a big start(What, are they going to siege your POS with Manticores and Pilgrims?) Vote Goumindong for CSM

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/05/2008 06:57:37 Originally by: Waxau totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Isn't it more that you can't open the cyno in half the systems in the game? Just letting them ignore cyno jammers would be a big start(What, are they going to siege your POS with Manticores and Pilgrims?) Even if they could ignore cynojammers, you are still left with the same fundamental problems with Black ops. -- Billion Isk Mission
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:51:00 - [22] I still say let Black Ops use all of their toys in high sec. And let Covert Cyno Gens also work in high sec. The Empire Jump Rules are designed for Capitals after all. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/05/2008 06:57:37 Originally by: Waxau totally agree here. We all love the idea of 'ooooooh lets cyno in behind them, cause mayhem, without them knowing, and mwhahahaha evvvviiil'. But the fact is, that the kinds of scenarios where that is useful, just dont exist nowdays. You dont get many low sec mining ops, or small pewpew corps in 0.0. You get blobs, ganks, and overkill. And lets give a scenario. Isn't it more that you can't open the cyno in half the systems in the game? Just letting them ignore cyno jammers would be a big start(What, are they going to siege your POS with Manticores and Pilgrims?) Not the issue at all tbh. Even if you could cyno into cynojammed system...what good would it do YOU? You cant jump bridge anything, due to the stupid fuel usage. You cant fight anything (if its a cynojammed system, most likely will be busy), so at any time you uncloak, there will be probes, and/or similar for you to contend with. And even then - As for the afore mentioned reasons - It just lacks any role. Having it able to cyno into cynojammed systems doesnt increase its role, but more expands on its lack of role.
Ja'kar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:20:00 - [24] not forgetting that not everyone wantso to use the cyno thing - some of us want to use to for a cloaked combat ship, not just for ganking - but for fun not letting it warped cloaked is very bad move just unforgivable!
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:50:00 - [25] Edited by: Captator on 01/05/2008 10:50:34 can a black ops jump electronic attack frigates? edit: and/or combat recons?
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:24:00 - [26] They would be even vaguely useable if they were literally big recons. Still no tank, no damage, but with reconish bonuses. And a covert cloak. Oh god they do need that.
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:39:00 - [27] If BlackOps are not supposed to do anything but jump recon ship... that's fine. But, please, make the skills necessary for such a ship reflect this non-combat transport role.... Make it a glorified, expensive, high-MERCHANT-skill demanding vessel. As it stands, combat pilots sitting in these things are a complete waste of skillpoints!!! If you want to fly them now, surely the only viable path is to specifically-train an alt
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.01 18:36:00 - [28] Haven't CCP actually stated that they released the black ops ships pre-nerfed? One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that if you have the skills to fly a black ops, you are a fair bit of the way towards capital ships - jump drive calibration 4 and BS 5, from scratch, are about 3 months. Another point: If CCP write code for a seperate fuel bay for these, then they will almost certainly nerf dreads and carriers by doing the same thing for them, thus further making it impossible to use either for jump hauling. And maybe give Rorquals seperate ore bays and stop these being used as well. This would fit in beautifully with CCP's hardon for the jump freighter - which is so broken it isn't funny. I completely fail to see the logic of those things being tech 2; by no means all jump-capable ships are tech 2. They already have a quarter of the capacity of ordinary freighters; isn't that disadvantage enough? The jump freighter being tech 2, as I see it, is designed (perhaps on purpose) to favour alliances big enough to have a titan or two, thus allowing the transporting around of ordinary freighters to wherever the heck you like (thus avoiding all manner of logistic problems) and giving certain ones free income (in the range of billions per week) by freighting stuff in bulk between the various pirate factions. BoD anyone? The defenseless of freighters is custom-designed to aid and abet gate gankers, but that's another story. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Kayoss IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:13:00 - [29] They really need the Covert Ops Cloak. I'm not gong to waste a 700 million ship in an enemy system without a resonable chance of surviving. And obviously the need room for more fuel.
Zakgram Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 07:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Kayoss They really need the Covert Ops Cloak. I'm not gong to waste a 700 million ship in an enemy system without a resonable chance of surviving. And obviously the need room for more fuel. The problem really is the bubble gate camp. These ships are so slow to move and align that you'll need a scout, and that scout is probably going to need to be in a cloaked ship, and handling 2 cloaked ships is just a bit of a pita.

Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.02 09:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Zakgram Originally by: Kayoss They really need the Covert Ops Cloak. I'm not gong to waste a 700 million ship in an enemy system without a resonable chance of surviving. And obviously the need room for more fuel. The problem really is the bubble gate camp. These ships are so slow to move and align that you'll need a scout, and that scout is probably going to need to be in a cloaked ship, and handling 2 cloaked ships is just a bit of a pita. Lol...How is that a problem? The only negative side of having the black ops with a cov ops cloak is it improves their survivability AND their combat ability. Imagine warping anywhere in a bs. Invisible. Attacking when and where you please. Dont get me wrong, id love a cov ops cloak, but there would be too many whines, regardless of its fragility. But yeha - Honestly i have no idea what crazy train your riding, but hell - eh?????
Mr Ignitious Gallente R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:25:00 - [32] Originally by: White Ronin Making their lock time reasonable would be a good step in the direction of fixing this ship. As another had mentioned using a 700mil ship that will need a cyno that they enemy will home in on is not the best of ideas. No cargo means no use as a covert 'bridge'. By only fixing the cargo/fuel issue without addressing its combat abilities makes it a stealth hauler and nothing more. As many have pointed out most other aspects of its 'purpose' really dont fit into the reality of how combat is conducted given the financial risks of using it for its role. You would have to blow up 5-7 tier one bs's to get your money out of it in the first place. Start simple. It is supposed to be a combat stealth ship. Fix the combat. Stealth is its 'hook' so make it so it can lock a target in a reasonable amount of time after decloaking. I love the idea of it using the covert ops cloak but honestly it would be the pwnmobile everyone fears in the first place then. Not that bad though if you figure that once decloaked it still targets like poo so most ships will have time to either lock it down and smash it up or leave. Just let it lock and use its ew to be its tank and see how that works first. Keep it simple and see what happens. Small fixes first and see how they work. i agree with you that they need a boost and a boost to their lock time would be one of the most important. However, the other problem is that the only one that has an ewar bonus is the widow. If they want to give all of the black ops an ewar bonus FINE by me, that would be sweet (however, its also been said that it would be gross to see a battleship with a web range bonus(panther). I think that RSD's + Scram on sin would also be fairly underwhelming.) perhaps they could boost the gank quality a little bit somehow. I don't think that would be too bad because they can't sneak up on an enemy too easily because they can't warp cloaked. I do not want to see these ships warp cloaked, the reporcussions of such would be devastating. the fuel bay would also be alright. Someone above mentioned that you would then have to do the same for carriers/dreads. Well...why? these ships are different and we're trying to not make them be worthless. if we wanted to do a trial boost to see how they work, i think these should be put in place: Remove the scan res penalty from the cloak, maybe even increase their base scan res a little bit. Increase dps a little bit somehow (or even tank instead of gank, i like thinking of them being the 'flag ship' for their recon entourage. Don't over tank them though, maybe on par or SLIGHTLY less than their t1 variants.) If no tank or gank bonus: Ewar bonus, however i don't think all the ewar options would be to viable on bs's. Seperate fuel bay: make a bay designated for the fuel, and either a: make it large enough to competently carry the fuel needed for the consumption now, or also reduce the fuel needs some. these are just my ideas, feel free to correct/comment on them. MrIg
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:36:00 - [33] Locking onto stars and opening cyno, having a seperate fuel bay or decrease fuel by a **** load, and finally increase scan res or neglect the scan res penalty when fitting a cloak.
Dexton Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:41:00 - [34] Your completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. They are not supposed to be the ultimate gang ship. They are supposed bring a very specialized role in very specialized situation. They are supposed to open jump portals for medium sized gang and cloak and manuver out of harms way while the medium sized gang you just jump portalled in do their job. To make sure you aren't just going around scouting for enemies and then jump portalling a gang on top of them you can't warp cloaked. To make sure you aren't just jump portalling all over eve you have small cargo so you need a hauler for fuel. So all their "cons" are there for a good reason, to not make it a solopwnmobile but rather as a logistical aid.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.02 12:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Dexton Your completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. They are not supposed to be the ultimate gang ship. They are supposed bring a very specialized role in very specialized situation. They are supposed to open jump portals for medium sized gang and cloak and manuver out of harms way while the medium sized gang you just jump portalled in do their job. To make sure you aren't just going around scouting for enemies and then jump portalling a gang on top of them you can't warp cloaked. To make sure you aren't just jump portalling all over eve you have small cargo so you need a hauler for fuel. So all their "cons" are there for a good reason, to not make it a solopwnmobile but rather as a logistical aid. Let me know when you actually can actually find a situation where this 'specialization' is of any use. Then perhaps myself, CCP, and everyone else in this thread will realise they dont need a boost.
Dexton Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 14:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Dexton Your completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. They are not supposed to be the ultimate gang ship. They are supposed bring a very specialized role in very specialized situation. They are supposed to open jump portals for medium sized gang and cloak and manuver out of harms way while the medium sized gang you just jump portalled in do their job. To make sure you aren't just going around scouting for enemies and then jump portalling a gang on top of them you can't warp cloaked. To make sure you aren't just jump portalling all over eve you have small cargo so you need a hauler for fuel. So all their "cons" are there for a good reason, to not make it a solopwnmobile but rather as a logistical aid. Let me know when you actually can actually find a situation where this 'specialization' is of any use. Then perhaps myself, CCP, and everyone else in this thread will realise they dont need a boost. Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through -> gang pewpew's -> Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through. It's supposed to be a hassle to justify titans.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.02 14:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Dexton Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Dexton Your completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. They are not supposed to be the ultimate gang ship. They are supposed bring a very specialized role in very specialized situation. They are supposed to open jump portals for medium sized gang and cloak and manuver out of harms way while the medium sized gang you just jump portalled in do their job. To make sure you aren't just going around scouting for enemies and then jump portalling a gang on top of them you can't warp cloaked. To make sure you aren't just jump portalling all over eve you have small cargo so you need a hauler for fuel. So all their "cons" are there for a good reason, to not make it a solopwnmobile but rather as a logistical aid. Let me know when you actually can actually find a situation where this 'specialization' is of any use. Then perhaps myself, CCP, and everyone else in this thread will realise they dont need a boost. Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through -> gang pewpew's -> Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through. It's supposed to be a hassle to justify titans. Incorrect. It would help if you flew a Black ops before making up stuff like that. I am a black ops pilot and the only use they are is for Jumpdrive Hauler. Cargo Expanded Redeemer carries around 4km3, though half of that is going to be fuel. Even better, I can Tag it along with a 1.4km3 Cov ops hauler (pilgrim) and portal it to make it move high value low volume loot around pretty safely and quickly. Thats how Black ops is being used currently. Because the type of pvp that CCP have in mind for the black ops has not existed for the last year or two. If you think I am wrong, then please tell us realistic scenarios where someone would use a black ops?
Rollerrat	Posted - 2008.05.02 14:53:00 - [38] Originally by: Cutie Chaser Originally by: Ja'kar crappy tank - crappy dps - slow locking - cloak timer - cannot warp when cloaked _ yah - great covert ship! On the contrary, what is more covert then a ship class you NEVER see anyone flying? :P rofllmao.. i've seen a widow once, on scan. fun thing is he was in the most insane gang i've ever seen though, like 4 machariels huginns and falcons, cant recall the rest of the ships atm.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:34:00 - [39] Originally by: Dexton Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Dexton Your completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. They are not supposed to be the ultimate gang ship. They are supposed bring a very specialized role in very specialized situation. They are supposed to open jump portals for medium sized gang and cloak and manuver out of harms way while the medium sized gang you just jump portalled in do their job. To make sure you aren't just going around scouting for enemies and then jump portalling a gang on top of them you can't warp cloaked. To make sure you aren't just jump portalling all over eve you have small cargo so you need a hauler for fuel. So all their "cons" are there for a good reason, to not make it a solopwnmobile but rather as a logistical aid. Let me know when you actually can actually find a situation where this 'specialization' is of any use. Then perhaps myself, CCP, and everyone else in this thread will realise they dont need a boost. Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through -> gang pewpew's -> Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through. It's supposed to be a hassle to justify titans. I must admit, i loled at this bit So - Lets just presume that the world is upside down, and that scenario actually is feasible, and BETTER than everyone participating just hopping in a bs, and flying thru the gates...Right..So. How is that hauler meant to provide you fuel, in the target system? You have a hauler there to give you fuel to jump the gang, ok - fair enough. Long winded, and not what CCP intended regardless of what you think - But good enough. Now - How are you getting them back? From what you've said, you have said blockade runner. Wheres that come from? Through the gates? If so, why not a full bs gang? or a fleet of anything else? Why a 700 mil bs, and a load of cloaking ships? Even more so, what scenario even calls for a cloaking gang of that size? Only feasible situation would be that all the gates are camped. In which case 1. Hows the cov ops gonna get in? 2. What about the fuel again? and 3. Why even bother with all that hassle and isk cost, when you can just grab yourself a t1 bs, fly into the system with your fellow buddies, and just blow everyone up - Win or lose, you come off far better than if you flew a black ops.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Dexton Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Dexton Your completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. They are not supposed to be the ultimate gang ship. They are supposed bring a very specialized role in very specialized situation. They are supposed to open jump portals for medium sized gang and cloak and manuver out of harms way while the medium sized gang you just jump portalled in do their job. To make sure you aren't just going around scouting for enemies and then jump portalling a gang on top of them you can't warp cloaked. To make sure you aren't just jump portalling all over eve you have small cargo so you need a hauler for fuel. So all their "cons" are there for a good reason, to not make it a solopwnmobile but rather as a logistical aid. Let me know when you actually can actually find a situation where this 'specialization' is of any use. Then perhaps myself, CCP, and everyone else in this thread will realise they dont need a boost. Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through -> gang pewpew's -> Covertops scouts -> portal is opened-> Hauler/Blockade Runner for fuel -> gang goes through. It's supposed to be a hassle to justify titans. I must admit, i loled at this bit So - Lets just presume that the world is upside down, and that scenario actually is feasible, and BETTER than everyone participating just hopping in a bs, and flying thru the gates...Right..So. How is that hauler meant to provide you fuel, in the target system? You have a hauler there to give you fuel to jump the gang, ok - fair enough. Long winded, and not what CCP intended regardless of what you think - But good enough. Now - How are you getting them back? From what you've said, you have said blockade runner. Wheres that come from? Through the gates? If so, why not a full bs gang? or a fleet of anything else? Why a 700 mil bs, and a load of cloaking ships? Even more so, what scenario even calls for a cloaking gang of that size? Only feasible situation would be that all the gates are camped. In which case 1. Hows the cov ops gonna get in? 2. What about the fuel again? and 3. Why even bother with all that hassle and isk cost, when you can just grab yourself a t1 bs, fly into the system with your fellow buddies, and just blow everyone up - Win or lose, you come off far better than if you flew a black ops. On top of what you said, the "Finish Him" quote is that if such a small cruiser sized gang needed to get past, they would simply nano up and go around camps or blast through them. Thus defeating any point to these ships other than becoming Jumpdrive Haulers

Zakgram Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:23:00 - [41] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Zakgram Stuff about gate camps Lol...How is that a problem? The only negative side of having the black ops with a cov ops cloak is it improves their survivability AND their combat ability. Imagine warping anywhere in a bs. Invisible. Attacking when and where you please. Dont get me wrong, id love a cov ops cloak, but there would be too many whines, regardless of its fragility. But yeha - Honestly i have no idea what crazy train your riding, but hell - eh????? Well how do you intend on getting into the system where you can warp around invisible? Once in the system being cloaked is fine... you just warp outside the grid range of the object and crawl into position if you want to be totally invisible. Or warp in, cloak. It's not getting the crap blown out of you as you try to get into system I'm more concerned about and a covert cloak won't do anything for that.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Zakgram Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Zakgram Stuff about gate camps Lol...How is that a problem? The only negative side of having the black ops with a cov ops cloak is it improves their survivability AND their combat ability. Imagine warping anywhere in a bs. Invisible. Attacking when and where you please. Dont get me wrong, id love a cov ops cloak, but there would be too many whines, regardless of its fragility. But yeha - Honestly i have no idea what crazy train your riding, but hell - eh????? Well how do you intend on getting into the system where you can warp around invisible? Once in the system being cloaked is fine... you just warp outside the grid range of the object and crawl into position if you want to be totally invisible. Or warp in, cloak. It's not getting the crap blown out of you as you try to get into system I'm more concerned about and a covert cloak won't do anything for that. Wait what? My first language is english, and i cant even decode what you're trying to say. You realise black ops cant currently warp cloaked right?
Zakgram Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.03 09:33:00 - [43] Originally by: Waxau Wait what? My first language is english, and i cant even decode what you're trying to say. You realise black ops cant currently warp cloaked right? I do. I'm in one as I type, though still to train blackops 5 (36 days sigh). Everyone is asking for covert ops... but until the other problems with it are solved a covert cloak won't do much for it imo.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.03 10:17:00 - [44] Originally by: Zakgram Originally by: Waxau Wait what? My first language is english, and i cant even decode what you're trying to say. You realise black ops cant currently warp cloaked right? I do. I'm in one as I type, though still to train blackops 5 (36 days sigh). Everyone is asking for covert ops... but until the other problems with it are solved a covert cloak won't do much for it imo. lol. Minus the fact that it would reduce the scan res penalty, the recloaking time, the fact it could warp cloaked, and the fact that it would be near enough uncatchable without bubbles?
Zakgram Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.03 17:54:00 - [45] Originally by: Waxau lol. Minus the fact that it would reduce the scan res penalty, the recloaking time, the fact it could warp cloaked, and the fact that it would be near enough uncatchable without bubbles? I'm guessing the 0.0 areas you inhabit have easy gate camps without bubbles, heavy dictors, or swarms of interceptors, rapiers, vagas etc. I'd like to move there - screw the lack of covert cloak!
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.03 18:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Zakgram Originally by: Waxau lol. Minus the fact that it would reduce the scan res penalty, the recloaking time, the fact it could warp cloaked, and the fact that it would be near enough uncatchable without bubbles? I'm guessing the 0.0 areas you inhabit have easy gate camps without bubbles, heavy dictors, or swarms of interceptors, rapiers, vagas etc. I'd like to move there - screw the lack of covert cloak! Actually, im in period basis, with bob, mc, and the rest of the fish. But regardless - I love how you just ignored my counter arguement there. And then theres the other point, of what the heck are you doing taking a black ops thru camped gates?
Thanatos Black	Posted - 2008.05.03 19:49:00 - [47] Ok yes there are many issues with Black Op ships as a whole; 1. What is there role? Really outdated role with todays pvp. 2. Fuel useage and cargo size requires use of another ship just for this role. I.E. fuel tanker. 3. Cannot cloak while in warp. Again requires the use of another ship just to make this ships role viable. (getting past gate camps) 4. Limted jump range. Ok so this one could go either way. It can't be on par caps is understanable. 5. Not on par with their little brothers (tech 1 ships)dont really understand the logic I mean are these not Tech 2 ships? should't they be a tad bit better? 6. The scan res / lock times are well yea bad to say the least. I guess I can understand somewhat so we are not turning these into solopwnmobles. So some simple fixes; For #1 with the following chnages listed below you could change the whole gate camp style of pvp we have today. #2.Add a seprate fuel bay or maybe another skill that could reduce the amount of space fuel takes up. #3.Not just allow the ship to warp cloaked with current skills but maybe add another skill obtained after completion of Black ops 5. This skill for each level allows you to warp cloaked but reduces cpu use per level. #4. Ok here is wishful thinking on this one, but will give the ship a defined role and change warfare all together. Allow the black op ships (at higher fuel cost)(possibly added skills required),create its own cyno to jump past the gate camps Without the use of another ship. Now before the flames start riseing hear me out. with this ablilty fuel cost are higher jump range is the same as it is now, with this comes a cool down timer so as the ship is not just jumping all around. Also the ship still has the current ability to jump to another covert cyno with little or no fuel cost and can have extended jump ranges. With an addtional skills for the jump feighters allow black op ships to lock onto them and bring them through the jump portal for the fuel tanker. ( A key target for defenders) #5. Easy fix bring black op ships on par with tech one ship but not to go to crazy. #6. I would TBH leave this as is just as long as the current ideas / changes are made as listed above, so these ship dont turn into your solo killing machines. These are just some ideas so fire up your flame throwers or add to and be constructive with some ideas that could help the game as a whole, we are the players and the customers for CCP if we come accross with problems and REASONABLE solutions then just maybe they will listen, after all it is our money. We can give it and we can take it back. TB
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:08:00 - [48] Fix for blackops is a lot more drastic than you mention. These whole ships really need to be scrapped and rebuilt for something new. I think a clean sheet of paper is needed for these so that these ships are actually viable and not comedy stuff. Some people say there is little point in training up past Black ops lvl1 on a Redeemer for example. I can see why. Basically, someone needs to look at real pvp nowadays and fit blackops in a sensible role around that, rather than put bandages on a broken leg to try to fix it.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:58:00 - [49] Edited by: Waxau on 04/05/2008 00:01:32 Originally by: Lord WarATron Fix for blackops is a lot more drastic than you mention. These whole ships really need to be scrapped and rebuilt for something new. I think a clean sheet of paper is needed for these so that these ships are actually viable and not comedy stuff. Some people say there is little point in training up past Black ops lvl1 on a Redeemer for example. I can see why. Basically, someone needs to look at real pvp nowadays and fit blackops in a sensible role around that, rather than put bandages on a broken leg to try to fix it. Then might i be the first to throw the first 'blank slate' idea out there. We have Marauders..What are they in pvp terms? Huge alpha, huge tanks. Vulnerability? ECM screws them over, huge cost. Easy advantages, easy disadvantages. Now...thinking on the same lines...If Marauders have dps...What if Black Ops had the same...but for electronic warfare? To make it clearer, a marauder has (for those who dont know) less weapon slots than normal, but a huge bonus to damage, giving you a greater dps than the t1 version. In combination of that, is greater tanks, with resists, cap, and so on. But their weakness on a pvp side of things, is their sensor strength. An unbonused ship can jam a marauder most of the time. As we can see, clear advatages, and clear disadvantages. This is coupled with the huge price tag too ofcourse. Now, what if the same principle was created again, but in a 'recon' version. We have electronic attack frigs. We have recons. One step higher, (which is already partially met with the Widow, and overall role description of the Black Ops) would be BS recons. Battleships which covertly enter a system, or reside in a system, causing mayhem and havoc with guerilla warfare. Im sure we all think that sounds cool, and what many folks who have trained for black ops first pictured. So what would this entail? Sin : Damp and Scramble range bonus. Can orbit at 40km, with ogres on a target, damping them to 10km and such, offering almost complete immunity against most targets. After all, its a 700 mil isk pvp ship, for veterans of 3 years or so - You SHOULD have some form of advantage over 3 month old players in Ravens right? Widow : ECM bonuses of the falcon, including range, and strength. Pretty much the same as now. Panther - Webbing range and (possibly target painting?) alphastrike bonus? (Keeping in line with the whole race features and such) Redeemer - Tracking disruption and neutralising. A t2 ship, much the same of a Blaag? Combined with these, is ALSO the idea, that much the same as Marauders, they have a huge strength, and weakness too. The said ships are ONLY allowed to fit a certain number of their bonused modules. Much like Marauders, they recieve huge bonuses, allowing them to excel in their specific scenario and niche....but with a select amount of modules, it also means that they lack any use in fights of large numbers. Pure Guerilla warfare. Hitting lone targets fast and hard, and fleeing afterwards. I am also thinking in terms of Covert ops cloak aswell here, but this is just a mindspill, with what im sure are many overpowered ideas. But hey - What else are these forums for? Bar for flames, smacktalk, trolling, and whines that is Also - Unsure on jump portals and jump drive. Havent really thought about it all. For those of us who fly black ops, or are capable of flying them...None of us would be below atleast the 2.5 year mark. I myself am nearing 4 years i believe. On this char that is. And so far, my 'signature' ship is a carrier. Who else here has a carrier? Yeap - Pretty much most. I want to go further. I want a ship, which people will actually be scared of in some way, much the way people were when carriers were first released. All it takes is two ships to take out any of these black ops - Minus the Widow, but then again, thats always been the same with caldari recons/EAFs, and luck based at that too. Two ships. I believe thats balanced enough?
Thanatos Black	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:24:00 - [50] Waxau you bring up some very good pionts and as always I value your covert ops, black ops sugestions and answers. Im sure if we continue to throw ideas CCP's way and kick and scream loud enough just maybe they will give us a shot. Much like the stealth bomber enough people posted Hey this needs fixed and many came up with some excellant ideas yourself included. So yes a complete scrap of Black Ops although maybe bit excessive and yet a bandaid simply will NOT do the job We all can still throw ideas, hopes and wishes out there. So CCP if by chance you are reading this because you put so much effort in designing these ships why not make some effort in the right direction with these ships. Many have put alot of time and effort into skills and equipment and simple put they DO NOT work as they are today. #1. Make it so they can warp cloaked #2. Larger or extra Fuel Bay #3. Bring up to Par if not same as Tech 1 BS's #4. Scan Res #5. Jump Range #6. Jump Fuel requirements I concurr with Waxau give them great strengths but they also need a simple weakness (maybe scan res is the weakness) Enjoy TB

Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:55:00 - [51] I hate to say it, but the never ending hate for solo flyers is getting old. Not everyone needs or wants to blob to fight, is it really so bad if there is one Tech 2 BS that can be a good soloer? I think a ship like this would be fine: Redeemer Redux: Amarr BS Bonus: 5% Optimal Range and 5% RoF Black Ops Bonus: 20% Scan Resolution and 7.5% Tracking Role Bonus: -99% CPU Need of Covert Ops Cloaks Special Bonus: +50% Tracking Disruptor Effectiveness 6 hi (5 Turrets) 5 mid 7 low Resists similar to what Interceptors get, big enough cargo to go on long trips without needing to dock. Basically, cut down the DPS to about BC levels, but give them enough utility and options to be effective in other ways.
Thanatos Black	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:05:00 - [52] The number one issue seems to constitent. The ablity to warp while cloaked, Hell I will even do another skill to level 5 if we could get just that added alone. But still it will not address the MANY fixes required. Some others; cargo capaticity, scan res, jump range, another big one What is the role of this ship with current pvp? Make some changes CCP and Role will be come. TB
Aleis Minmatar Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.05.05 08:32:00 - [53] Something else I feel needs to be changed and is not directly the black ops ships at all but the skill regs for the Covert Cyno, cyno theory lvl 5? so not only do you need one of the old guys to fly the black ops but anyone that has the skill points to spend towards a skill that doesn't do anything for the person directly and is only needed for this "special" ship is either another oldy who would be far more useful in any other role than the cov-ops cyno'er. Or a dedicated Alt which is just as lame. sure it's a T2 item and should following convension require at least one skill at lvl 5 but make it something else. Gang Assist Guide
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.05 08:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Aleis Something else I feel needs to be changed and is not directly the black ops ships at all but the skill regs for the Covert Cyno, cyno theory lvl 5? so not only do you need one of the old guys to fly the black ops but anyone that has the skill points to spend towards a skill that doesn't do anything for the person directly and is only needed for this "special" ship is either another oldy who would be far more useful in any other role than the cov-ops cyno'er. Or a dedicated Alt which is just as lame. sure it's a T2 item and should following convension require at least one skill at lvl 5 but make it something else. Heh... like Electronic Upgrades 5 is needed to get Covops/Recons...? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
AnarkiTheStorm Finis Lumen Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:01:00 - [55] an easy fix would be to allow any ships to go through the jump portal but to a certain mass% as in ceptors and dictors WOOP WOOP cos yer... stealth bomber gangs suck ass --- Rararar....
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:49:00 - [56] Originally by: AnarkiTheStorm an easy fix would be to allow any ships to go through the jump portal but to a certain mass% as in ceptors and dictors WOOP WOOP cos yer... stealth bomber gangs suck ass In its current borked state, if it portal though anyone, and the people jumping use fual in their own cargo and not the black ops cargo, then yeah, I can see a point to it. Till then, its a excellent jump drive hauler and a excellent ship to portal my jumpdrive Cov Ops (cargo expanded pilgrim) -- Billion Isk Mission
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:38:00 - [57] well mass has suc6fully used there blackops to gank ratters ;) having a covert online in hostile system 23/7 besides that i havent boderd to test em..
Captain Crimson Breathe.	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:55:00 - [58] What about a covops cloak, but with less hardpoints? And yes, fuel bay ftw. Originally by: Tuxford I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Captain Crimson What about a covops cloak, but with less hardpoints? And yes, fuel bay ftw. They already have the hp of BCs, and lack of ability to use cap boosters. Believe thats enough of a disadvantage :P
Pans Exual Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:44:00 - [60] Originally by: Zakgram ...These ships are so slow to move and align... The Sin actually handles like a cruiser, with the agility bonus. --- basically: "nerf rock, paper is fine" -scissors

Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:58:00 - [61] Originally by: Pans Exual Originally by: Zakgram ...These ships are so slow to move and align... The Sin actually handles like a cruiser, with the agility bonus. And even the other black ops warp as fast as cruisers (or BC perhaps). Dont forget, just cloak when you want to warp...get to about 2/5ths cloaked speed, and you're at your warp speed. 3 seconds to warp at max.
Thanatos Black	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:25:00 - [62] Is there any hope even on the drawing board for these broke ships CCP or did we waste our time on alot ship skill requirements with no real use or future in the game.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:30:00 - [63] Originally by: Thanatos Black Is there any hope even on the drawing board for these broke ships CCP or did we waste our time on alot ship skill requirements with no real use or future in the game. time wasted ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
disc drive	Posted - 2008.05.13 22:00:00 - [64] are all black ops similary broken, or do they all have different levels of broken-ness. cause I cind of like my Panther the way it is, even if it is paper thin (for a BS atleast) and only got avarage DPS. tho going 340m/s cloaked in a BS with no speed mods is quite fun actualy. anyways, what would be the worst and best (if you could call it that) Black Ops in thier current state?
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.13 22:10:00 - [65] Originally by: disc drive are all black ops similary broken, or do they all have different levels of broken-ness. cause I cind of like my Panther the way it is, even if it is paper thin (for a BS atleast) and only got avarage DPS. tho going 340m/s cloaked in a BS with no speed mods is quite fun actualy. anyways, what would be the worst and best (if you could call it that) Black Ops in thier current state? Personally (and most likely biased), i believe the widow is. Mainly due to the whole scan res penalty, and overall lock range, combined with the ECM range, and overall value of the ship dont match up. But at the same time, id far prefer to be in a widow at 60km, than a pather at 10km, in the range of neuts, points, webs, and so on. So many downsides to each, and very few positive sides.
Word	Posted - 2008.05.14 02:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Depp Knight Locking onto stars and opening cyno, having a seperate fuel bay or decrease fuel by a **** load, and finally increase scan res or neglect the scan res penalty when fitting a cloak. Yes, after spending all the isk, this is what I demand for a start. Nothing less. Be able to lock onto stars and jump independently of extra support, and use covert ops cloak at least, and carry enough fuel for a round trip. If anyone thinks it should be some one trick pony, but mostly useless, then create another specialized ship to fill that role AT 15-20% of the cost! I'm suspecting that this is just some BS way of sucking ppl into training up jump skills to start using capital ships.
Thanatos Black	Posted - 2008.05.14 23:57:00 - [67] Figure if we keep throwing ideas out there just maybe someone (CCP) will take notice. They idea of locking on to stars and creating their own jump portal is great also I like the idea of warping while cloaked with maybe a scan res reduction so they are not to overpowered. The fuel bay issue has just got to be addressed. Just with these small fixes alone maybe this ship can make back to becoming a useable ship and posibly find a role in the game for which it does not have what so ever currently. TB
Blk Mage Gallente Rogue Chrome Angelz	Posted - 2008.05.21 05:30:00 - [68] Why are so many people wanting to jump to stars? I trained to use the covert cyno because I can fly Covert Ops and my corp wanted to get a couple of Black Ops together. In my research, one of the great things about the covert cyno seems to be that you can setup at a random point in the system and nobody sees you. If you could jump to a star, they'd just camp stars like they already do gates, and it would become pretty much useless. -the 2 cents of a 2 year old character
Garric Vor'g Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.21 12:40:00 - [69] Here's an idea I didn't see anyone mention: 1st make it cost 0 to activate the covert cyno, but then cost ?? for each ship that jumps to it. Then: Role Bonus 50% reduction in cost for ships fitted with black ops jump drives, 50% increase to ships without black ops jump drives. Make it so all jump capable ships can jump to it, with the draw-back being it can only jump 1 or 2 caps at a time, or multiple black ops ships. CRAZED & INSANE Originally by: Eva things that get said get translated by my brain into "German guy can see enemy. English guy has a point. Warp to American guy.
Terazuk Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:31:00 - [70] Yup the blackops need a serious rethink. I'm particular to giving them a fuel bay for starters but then you have to give every jump capable ship one too... probably not entirely a bad thing. Originally by: Dexton our completely missing the point. They are not supposed to be solopwnmobiles. They are not supposed to be the ultimate gang ship. They are supposed bring a very specialized role in very specialized situation. They are supposed to open jump portals for medium sized gang and cloak and manuver out of harms way while the medium sized gang you just jump portalled in do their job. To make sure you aren't just going around scouting for enemies and then jump portalling a gang on top of them you can't warp cloaked. To make sure you aren't just jump portalling all over eve you have small cargo so you need a hauler for fuel. So all their "cons" are there for a good reason, to not make it a solopwnmobile but rather as a logistical aid. This kind of stuff annoys me too. A lot of us have spent years investing in this game emotionally and financially not including the months we have perhaps spent training for this ship alone. Do we not deserve more than this for our continued support? I want a Black-Ops irregardless of how good or how bad it is. But I would prefer if I could perhaps do more than listen to what my gang mates are doing on vent, while I stay safe and cloaked in hostile territory. It seems rather insulting that my main character, the character I have spent an ungodly amount of time developing, is, for the wont of something cool! relegated to ALT or NPC* status... pure support with no other desirably active role, than to just 'port in my buddies. I don't log in for that... I play for fun and I want to fly 'fun' ships and I want to do 'fun' things. To be a glorified hauler is not why I fly combat ships despite it being a somewhat useful corollary at times. Originally by: CCP Fendahl Black Ops The Black Ops specialize in infiltration and covert operation. Equipped with a jump drive, they can jump short distances past enemy blockades. Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers and Force Recons (not Combat Recons) have been upgraded to support Covert Cynosural Field Generators. These new modules are advanced Cynosural Field Generators that cannot be detected and only Black Ops can lock on to. What makes the Black Ops in particular dangerous is that they can use miniaturized jump portal generators, Covert Jump Portal Generators, to sneak allied forces behind enemy lines. However the covert jump portal technology is rather limited compared to the Titan class jump portals and require support from the ships that jump through to work correctly. Covert jump portal generators can only bridge for ships with Jump Harmonics 2 or above. The covert tech 2 ships: Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers and Force Recons have been upgraded to this end. The resource consumption on the Black Ops jump drives and the Covert Jump Portal Generator is very high, so jump fuel logistics are a concern. Fortunately the Black Ops can also use ordinary jump gates and can thus save jump fuel for when it really matters. Grade = U: Lacks application or direction, poorly thought out and/or has little relevance to what might have actually been useful. 10/10 for effort, please try again!

Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:42:00 - [71] just keep sayin 3 things with me 1. Covert Cyno in Cyno jammed systems 2. Fuelbay for 6ly one way, 12 round trip, for you and 10 of your friends 3. Warp cloaked for the purpose of droppin in on gate camps etc if the BO really opperated as a covert reconnisence vessal capable of actually doing something instead of ending up in a collectors show room, a slight touch up to individual ship stats would be all that was necessary
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:54:00 - [72] Originally by: Matrixcvd just keep sayin 3 things with me 1. Covert Cyno in Cyno jammed systems 2. Fuelbay for 6ly one way, 12 round trip, for you and 10 of your friends 3. Warp cloaked for the purpose of droppin in on gate camps etc if the BO really opperated as a covert reconnisence vessal capable of actually doing something instead of ending up in a collectors show room, a slight touch up to individual ship stats would be all that was necessary The lack of a bonus to cloak recalibration and sig resolution are game breaking too. The bridge mechanic is stupid, it needs to be a means to move ships that can't otherwise move quickly if its to emulate the POS module--why would you waste time bridging some recons that can already warp cloaked? You can't hit the station service, do anything to hostile POS anyway--if you were planning on station camping the recons could have flown in on their own. What needs to happen is to remove the arbitrary and counterproductive limit on jump drive harmonics and introduce a module that enables BO portaling. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Euriti Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Thanatos Black Is there any hope even on the drawing board for these broke ships CCP or did we waste our time on alot ship skill requirements with no real use or future in the game. The Sin is horrible.
Bodhisattvas Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:11:00 - [74] Decided to take my sin into 0.0 with the thought in mind of actually putting it to use. 16 jumps from high sec to 0.0 destination, this equated to 5 cyno jumps for my main and 50 or so for my cyno alt. Problems encountered included, extra jumps incurred because even jumping from one system to the next system was further than 4 light year. Then the problem of 0.0 systems which had cyno jammers fitted and not knowing till my alt got into system and scanned for one, and then having to recalculate using the jump planner. I used one of the jump planner web sites available and found when making a A to B jump plan comprised of multple cyno jumps, then if you decided to recalculate say third cyno jump in the route would actually change. Seems it works a bit like your average gps route finder where it only decides to think real hard on the first stage of route calculation then the rest of the trip is "oh it will do" So as well as increasing jump range and allowing a fuel hangar would it be possible for ccp to implement a jump planner in game also giving it the ability to plot around pesky active cyno jammers ? Or as its a black ops type class ship why can't it just be allowed to ignore cyno jammers totally or negate their effect while in system ? Sensor resolution suggestion is irrelevant as the combat aspect of these ships is a low priority. Seems alliances have it all their way for the best part with their cyno jammers etc so black ops should be the perfect choice for negating that.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:25:00 - [75] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Sensor resolution suggestion is irrelevant as the combat aspect of these ships is a low priority. Seems alliances have it all their way for the best part with their cyno jammers etc so black ops should be the perfect choice for negating that. Oh please. Every cloak based ship enjoys the sig res & recal bonus. They were meant to be the combat ships fundamentally, the cloak & bridge part was just a gimmick thrown in there at the last minute and the lack of this bonus is a sign of rushed ships not intentional weakness. By the way there is a in game jump tool, ctrl+backspace iirc, it isn't that great though. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:25:00 - [76] Originally by: Blk Mage Why are so many people wanting to jump to stars? I trained to use the covert cyno because I can fly Covert Ops and my corp wanted to get a couple of Black Ops together. In my research, one of the great things about the covert cyno seems to be that you can setup at a random point in the system and nobody sees you. If you could jump to a star, they'd just camp stars like they already do gates, and it would become pretty much useless. -the 2 cents of a 2 year old character The basic reason is the supposed strength of the ship is it is able to jump a small (and keep in mind if you want it to be a round trip it's a very small) gang of covert ops and recon ships a short distance behind the lines, thus bybassing enemy gatecamps and defenses. But the reality is people know SOEMTHING'S up because local lets you see them in system. You have to get at least ONE ship behind the lines also, and the ships in question are some of the BEST at bypassing gatecamps (it takes a well run gatecamp and at least a bit of luck to snag a covert ops frigate in a camp). Being able to lock onto stars means your entry into the system is truly a surpise. Given you can just use a hauler full of fuel to dump recon ships behind the lines if it's to be a one way jump, having no pre warning of a gang of 10 or more recons and stealth bombers coming in means you have an opportunity to actually ambush mining ops, ratters and a whole host of other 0.0 denziens that normally you'd miss because people have the warning of "red in system" for quite a bit of time before the rest of the troops show up. Could people potentialy camp stars? Sure - but that means an exta thing to camp. Most corps and alliances don't have the manpower to run many gatecamps effectively, thus the reason star clusters with a single entry point are so highly coveted - it allows them to concentrate their defenses. Suddenly the addition of other points of entry for reasonable sized gangs mean the ability to actually jump behind the lines with no warning becomes at least somewhat more useful. Regardless of if someone sees the cov ops cyno, the fact that local screams hostiles in the system means people will be on their toes. It doesn't tank long at all to probe down an uncloaked Cov Ops frigate meaning the operation is still a relatively high risk one since you're stuck in place and can't move until the cyno finishes its cycle.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.21 16:25:00 - [77] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/05/2008 16:25:49 Issues with black ops are just too deep due to pvp being compleatly different nowadays. But here, rather than talk about these black ops fix's which are the same as putting a bandage on a broken leg, can someone actually tell me a proper real world non-comedy scenario where these ships can actually be used? Imo, the whole class needs to be scrapped and redesigned with real world pvp in mind -- Billion Isk Mission


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