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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
   |
Posted - 2008.05.02 18:43:00 -
[1]
Would having new players get killed during the tutorial be a good thing?
i.e. they're flying about doing their stuff, they kill the puny npc that is there, then a big npc arrives to kill them, and possibly their pod as well.
Then Aura comes on with her soothing voice and says "You got killed, well, these things happen. There's a lot you can do to prevent this happening, but ultimately you are always at risk in space. Keep your clone updated and don't fly what you can't afford to lose, and you'll do fine."
Thereby acclimitising people right from the beginning to losing ships and pods? They've lost a noobship and noobclone, neither of which costs anything, so it's not like they're out of pocket. |
Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:50:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
Would having new players get killed during the tutorial be a good thing?
i.e. they're flying about doing their stuff, they kill the puny npc that is there, then a big npc arrives to kill them, and possibly their pod as well.
Then Aura comes on with her soothing voice and says "You got killed, well, these things happen. There's a lot you can do to prevent this happening, but ultimately you are always at risk in space. Keep your clone updated and don't fly what you can't afford to lose, and you'll do fine."
Thereby acclimitising people right from the beginning to losing ships and pods? They've lost a noobship and noobclone, neither of which costs anything, so it's not like they're out of pocket.
What point would that have? Player get killed by other players, not by NPCs, if anything it sends the wrong message. |
Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:51:00 -
[3]
hehe...
Well I am for it. Ofc I am constantly shocked by the ammount of newbies I run across who do not start nor complete the tutorial.
Most likely those who need this lesson the most in their first few days of eve would fail to even take it or pay heed to it.
Maybe it would just be better if to start at character creation with big bold letters taking up 3/4 of the screen...
"You will die and lose ships a lot in eve, especially if you dont pay attention and learn, keep your clone updated.
Whiners need not apply!" |
Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
|
Posted - 2008.05.02 18:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
What point would that have?
The point being to get people to realise that ships and pods can and will be destroyed as part of normal EVE gameplay, not as a result of "zOmg, greeferz!" |
Fredior Khan'Sebies
Minmatar
Mikramurka Solace
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:58:00 -
[5]
I would support this :P
Say, one of the tutorials could be to warp to a spot in the solar system where a large smartbomb effect pulses every few seconds, whether it is ship or pod in range.
Then the tutorial could talk about updating clones and buying insurance.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:59:00 -
[6]
I think that just telling players during the tutorial that everyone dies eventually in this game, some more than others, should suffice. Actually killing them with an unbeatable NPC just cheapens the whole idea of killing tbh.
Also like was said, it sends the wrong message. Specifically, the message that there's such a thing as unavoidable death, which is totally wrong. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.02 19:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
Would having new players get killed during the tutorial be a good thing?
i.e. they're flying about doing their stuff, they kill the puny npc that is there, then a big npc arrives to kill them, and possibly their pod as well.
Then Aura comes on with her soothing voice and says "You got killed, well, these things happen. There's a lot you can do to prevent this happening, but ultimately you are always at risk in space. Keep your clone updated and don't fly what you can't afford to lose, and you'll do fine."
Thereby acclimitising people right from the beginning to losing ships and pods? They've lost a noobship and noobclone, neither of which costs anything, so it's not like they're out of pocket.
I think it would have convinced me that this is not the game I did wanted to play.
Trying to get a ban for griefing new player removed as you were doing a service for the community? |
Reaver One
Fleeting Moments of Insanity
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Posted - 2008.05.02 19:12:00 -
[8]
I have a similar idea.
Create a special solar system in each empire. This system is effectively 0.0 space. All new players will start here.
Each system would have one station with a special market selling only T1 ammo and basic expendables, a repair facility, a clone bank and that's it. The station is protected by sentry guns that would light up anyone who fires a weapon within 60k.
Anyone who has left the system (or anyone who has started playing the game before this change takes effect) is considered a capsuleer.
THe number of newbies in-system would be unlimited. Capsuleers can only enter this system by paying a 1 million ISK charge, and a maximum of 15 capsuleers would be allowed in-systed at any time.
Capsuleers wanting to enter the system can only do so if their ship is a T1 frigate, and only if the ship is fitted entirely with unnamed T1 modules and standard charges/expendables.
Newbies can only "graduate" to being capsuleers by leaving the system. They are not penalized in any way when killed, and simply respawn at the station. Their ships are armed with two civillian gatling guns (no mining laser).
Newbies receive an additional 1 ISK per hit point of damage they inflict on capsuleers (awarded after they leave the system). They receive a 10,000 ISK bounty if the manage to inflict the final blow on a capsuleer.
Capsuleers receive a 5,000 ISK bounty for any newbie ship they destroy, and a 1000 ISK bounty for any newbie they pod. Capsuleers cannot choose to spawn at the station in this system.
Let the slaughter begin. |
Zippy theEyestabber
Blue.
Blue Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.02 19:21:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Zippy theEyestabber on 02/05/2008 19:22:05
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
Would having new players get killed during the tutorial be a good thing?
i.e. they're flying about doing their stuff, they kill the puny npc that is there, then a big npc arrives to kill them, and possibly their pod as well.
Then Aura comes on with her soothing voice and says "You got killed, well, these things happen. There's a lot you can do to prevent this happening, but ultimately you are always at risk in space. Keep your clone updated and don't fly what you can't afford to lose, and you'll do fine."
Thereby acclimitising people right from the beginning to losing ships and pods? They've lost a noobship and noobclone, neither of which costs anything, so it's not like they're out of pocket.
Um, dude, killing players is against the law. And poor business practice. Perhaps editing the tille? You'll upset Lemptie. |
Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.02 19:36:00 -
[10]
It worked in Planetside – should work just as well here.
/supported |
Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
|
Posted - 2008.05.02 19:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
I think that just telling players during the tutorial that everyone dies eventually in this game, some more than others, should suffice.
OK.
Quote:
Also like was said, it sends the wrong message. Specifically, the message that there's such a thing as unavoidable death, which is totally wrong.
could you expand on this, please? Intent is to show that death happens as part of normal gameplay, but also that players have options to prevent this happening to them.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Trying to get a ban for griefing new player removed as you were doing a service for the community?
You are suggesting I have been banned for griefing new players? You would be wrong. |
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.05.02 20:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
Quote:
Also like was said, it sends the wrong message. Specifically, the message that there's such a thing as unavoidable death, which is totally wrong.
could you expand on this, please? Intent is to show that death happens as part of normal gameplay, but also that players have options to prevent this happening to them.
All in all, killing new players in the tutorial would not be an issue that I'd really go to the mat for since it isn't particularly important to me. I just don't personally see what benefit tutorial death would have for anyone that a mere verbal warning about the galaxy's dangers wouldn't also provide. I'd imagine most new players enter this game with an overwhelming sense of awe, and killing them in the tutorial for no reason other than to show them that their ship isn't invincible would probably detract from the overall experience of starting up in this game. |
Faife
Noctiscion
Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.05.02 20:23:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Faife on 02/05/2008 20:22:50
You know what beginners like best in a game? Being forced to die in the first tutorial. Yeah.
"but this weed out the people i don't like!"
Yeah, but does CCP like you or having a steady salary better? Hm? |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.05.02 20:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
Would having new players get killed during the tutorial be a good thing?
I didn't read the rest of your post, but when players die it's always a shame, young or old. Also, I think there might be some legal and financial consequences unless it were handled very cleverly.
But a new player assassination policy would have some potential as an anti-lag measure, and people are always posting things like "FIX THE BLAG CCP WHATEVER IT TAKESSS!" and I know the company is always looking for new and creative solutions to the problem.
So I guess what I'm saying is, if CCP can figure out a way to avoid getting caught, and to keep collecting subscription fees from these people after they're "taken care of"...why not give it a try?
Oh, but if you just meant killing their EVE clones during the tutorial--I think that's a bad idea. |
Victor Forge
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.05.02 21:24:00 -
[15]
NPCs being able to Pod-kill? Hmm, I donŠt think the newbies with no implants are the ones that are going to complain loudest about such change.
And new players usually gets their ships destroyed a few times anyway, until the have learnt what will and will not anger Concorde.  |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.05.02 21:35:00 -
[16]
Ship loss, definitely. Perhaps not a pod loss. |
Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.05.02 21:52:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Also like was said, it sends the wrong message. Specifically, the message that there's such a thing as unavoidable death, which is totally wrong.
could you expand on this, please? Intent is to show that death happens as part of normal gameplay, but also that players have options to prevent this happening to them.
So you want to show players that death can be prevented by having them killed immediately without a chance to defend themselves? ...riiiggghht.
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Alora Venoda
GalTech
Giant Space Amoeba
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Posted - 2008.05.03 00:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Constance Harme
Quote:
Also like was said, it sends the wrong message. Specifically, the message that there's such a thing as unavoidable death, which is totally wrong.
could you expand on this, please? Intent is to show that death happens as part of normal gameplay, but also that players have options to prevent this happening to them.
So you want to show players that death can be prevented by having them killed immediately without a chance to defend themselves? ...riiiggghht.
yeah it would be better to play out some basic pvp scenario in the tutorial, where they can easily survive if they know what to do. although "pretend pvp" against an NPC does sound kind of silly... maybe the objective could be to camp a gate and scram/kill an NPC hauler that appears, or better yet - steal some ore from an NPC ship that is mining  they could even popup some text in local like some missions do, with some amusing smacktalk or something.  |
Element 22
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.03 05:44:00 -
[19]
They don't need to have that in the tutorial, I lost my first ship quick enough as was (and no, I didn't shoot concord).
However, people who don't finish the tutorial should have their ship destroyed for something like: "oops, I guess going AWOL wasn't the best idea, better finish training". Literally. They should do the tutorial and when given the option to warp to another planet they end up in a bubble and get blasted back into a pod unless they finish the missions, maybe with a warning saying: You really should finish the mission, they might not let you go unless you do." |
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CCP Fear
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Posted - 2008.05.08 15:30:00 -
[20]
This has been discussed Internally. In it's current form, the tutorial will not kill a new player, as death is not really fun in any shape or form. The resulting emotion is failure and thus he is less likely to like the game, as he already doesn't like the game based on his first attempt.
However, this can be argued against. There are several ideas that have been passed on regarding this, such as; They would learn that the loss of a ship isn't the end of the world, move on.
I tend to agree, to a point. I am not that convinced that destroying a ship of a new player, make him suffer is a good strategy. However, it could be scripted, in such a way that it doesn't affect him. Rather that he aquires a new ship or something while doing the tutorial, while explaining that losing ships is ok, and you can always get a new one etc.
That is perhaps not the right way to go, the current way seems to be working well enough, but we can probably always do better, and we will keep doing that.
I guess it all comes down to perspective, and where we can find that middle ground that suits everyone.
Or does that exist at all? |
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Ordon Gundar
Caldari
Kingfisher Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.08 15:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Reaver One
I have a similar idea.
Create a special solar system in each empire. This system is effectively 0.0 space. All new players will start here.
Each system would have one station with a special market selling only T1 ammo and basic expendables, a repair facility, a clone bank and that's it. The station is protected by sentry guns that would light up anyone who fires a weapon within 60k.
Anyone who has left the system (or anyone who has started playing the game before this change takes effect) is considered a capsuleer.
THe number of newbies in-system would be unlimited. Capsuleers can only enter this system by paying a 1 million ISK charge, and a maximum of 15 capsuleers would be allowed in-systed at any time.
Capsuleers wanting to enter the system can only do so if their ship is a T1 frigate, and only if the ship is fitted entirely with unnamed T1 modules and standard charges/expendables.
Newbies can only "graduate" to being capsuleers by leaving the system. They are not penalized in any way when killed, and simply respawn at the station. Their ships are armed with two civillian gatling guns (no mining laser).
Newbies receive an additional 1 ISK per hit point of damage they inflict on capsuleers (awarded after they leave the system). They receive a 10,000 ISK bounty if the manage to inflict the final blow on a capsuleer.
Capsuleers receive a 5,000 ISK bounty for any newbie ship they destroy, and a 1000 ISK bounty for any newbie they pod. Capsuleers cannot choose to spawn at the station in this system.
Let the slaughter begin.
Easiest way to convince hundreds of new players NOT to subscribe after their free time is up. Terrible idea. Not everyone is into EvE for the PvP, and those who dont are still entitled to do what they want.They shouldnt be forced in any particular direction. This is a "sandbox" game after all.
"Stay Small..Fly Fast..Keep Your Ship" - Ordon Gundar - Low Sec Survivalist & CEO of Danger Zone Enterprises |
Z3r0n
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.08 16:12:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Z3r0n on 08/05/2008 16:16:20
Maybe instead of having the newbie ganked outright, you could only make it look like he was about to get his ship destroyed but as soon as his hull reaches 5% the NPC turn neutral, opens a com link with the newbie and tells him that "next time he won't be so forgiving" or some such rubish. Then have Aura explain that being jumped in belts and murdered etc. is totally normal and meant to happen if the newbie doesn't pay attention etc.
That way the newbie will get a nice little shock when his ship starts burning but he won't actually get killed. I think that would already be enough to get the message home, wouldn't it?
Edit:
Quote:
Easiest way to convince hundreds of new players NOT to subscribe after their free time is up. Terrible idea. Not everyone is into EvE for the PvP, and those who dont are still entitled to do what they want.They shouldnt be forced in any particular direction. This is a "sandbox" game after all.
I agree that nobody should be forced to PvP but on the other hand nobody can force me not to gank them. Thats what the sandbox thing is all about. Driving the message home to new players that EVE is a harsh place full of murdering psychopaths is a good thing... that way they won't be quite as shocked when they get sent through a lowsec system by their tutorial agent and get raped at the first gate.
I personally would have rather learned about the harshness of EVE in the tutorial then somewhere in lowsec.
Currently Training:
ePeen Compensation Rank (19) |
Freya Runestone
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.08 16:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ordon Gundar
Easiest way to convince hundreds of new players NOT to subscribe after their free time is up. Terrible idea. Not everyone is into EvE for the PvP, and those who dont are still entitled to do what they want.They shouldnt be forced in any particular direction. This is a "sandbox" game after all.
It's just delaying the inevitable, they are gonna feel that way whatever the first ship they lose is. a noob ship is free to lose, a cruiser is not easy to replace if you're new.
I don't think anyone who's played eve for any decent amount of time has never lost a ship.
It'll happen sooner or later, if done right in the tutorial it wont turn a lot of people away from the game because they will get what they lost back again for free, when they lose a bigger ship later, they might not be so lucky.
So, I think it would be a good addition to the tutorial/training missions to destroy the newbie ship and explain to the new players that this happens in EVE.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.05.08 16:31:00 -
[24]
Or you could add a 'Get blow up' Tutorial. There the newb can go through all the steps of attacking the wrong target, exploding and hopping into a new noobship.
"In this tutorial you learn how to deal with one of the more common parts of the game: Getting blown up."
"Go on, attack this cruiser. It'll open fire on you and will destroy your ship. Don't worry, it will not destroy your capsule."
*pew* - *BOOM*
"You are now floating in your capsule. This is the last line of defense before you wake up in a new body at a cloning facility."
"A pod is vulnerable and defenseless. Making a quick exit when loosing your ship is recommended."
"But don't worry too much, only other players will attack your capsule. Pirates and other computer controlled entities will ignore it."
"Look over there. We have spawned a new Rookie Ship for you. Right click and select 'Board Ship' to take control of it."
"Whenever you enter a station without a ship available you will be automatically given a new Rookie ship with basic equipment."
"Also take note of the tutorial about Ship Insurance and pay close attention to the Reimbursement Policies for petitions."
"Congratulations. By loosing your very first ship and dealing with it you made the most important step to becoming a full grown Capsuleer."
Maybe add something about killmails and such.
Allowing new players to go through a controlled demolition might prepare them for their first real loss and helps them to deal with it in a more confident manner. After all, getting blown up is a major part of the game and displaying it as something that isn't too much to worry about and might be actually fun, could reduce the amount of players that quit in a fit of frustration after their first uncontrolled ship loss.
--------
Ideas for:
Mining
Clouds
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.08 16:38:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 08/05/2008 16:44:42
Originally by: CCP Fear
This has been discussed Internally. In it's current form, the tutorial will not kill a new player, as death is not really fun in any shape or form. The resulting emotion is failure and thus he is less likely to like the game, as he already doesn't like the game based on his first attempt.
Quitters are****gots, who cares?
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.05.08 16:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Abrazzar
*stuffs*
I dunno, that seems far too controlled for my tastes. Part of what makes combat in EVE interesting is the fact that death can happen when you least expect it. Make it part of a larger series of tutorials.
Maybe at the end of a tutorial series on combat you're issued a small task, like a graduation requirement, to take down a certain NPC. You do that successfully because hey it's a combat tutorial. Designed to introduce the basics. No problems.
The tutorial continues.
Later during an unrelated section of the tutorial, say something dealing with mining, or whatever, you get jumped by associates of the NPC you offed earlier. They get in, perma-scramble+web you, and proceed to tear you to bits. Helpless, your ship is blown to pieces. They leave, happy with teaching you that lesson.
Tutorial girl comes back with some RP blatherings about how they've been identified for later destruction by more experienced pilots, but for now hey that's what can happen anywhere in New Eden, so lets get you a new noob frigate.
Etc.
Just some thoughts. :)
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TimMc
Gallente
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.05.08 17:02:00 -
[27]
Edited by: TimMc on 08/05/2008 17:02:35
Originally by: CCP Fear
This has been discussed Internally. In it's current form, the tutorial will not kill a new player, as death is not really fun in any shape or form. The resulting emotion is failure and thus he is less likely to like the game, as he already doesn't like the game based on his first attempt.
However, this can be argued against. There are several ideas that have been passed on regarding this, such as; They would learn that the loss of a ship isn't the end of the world, move on.
I tend to agree, to a point. I am not that convinced that destroying a ship of a new player, make him suffer is a good strategy. However, it could be scripted, in such a way that it doesn't affect him. Rather that he aquires a new ship or something while doing the tutorial, while explaining that losing ships is ok, and you can always get a new one etc.
That is perhaps not the right way to go, the current way seems to be working well enough, but we can probably always do better, and we will keep doing that.
I guess it all comes down to perspective, and where we can find that middle ground that suits everyone.
Or does that exist at all?
Yeah this perspective is right. Most players hate being killed by NPCs. Players its alright, because then you can direct your hate to a person, while the game being competitive.
You could have a secondary tutorial 2 weeks into the game. This tutorial would pay out a few million ISK, which would be an exciting insentive to new players. The player would be required to warp to a set low sec system and plug a skillbook on that station into their head. Aura could explain before entering low sec that other players might kill them, and that insurance and clone updating are a necessity here. And to fear everyone.
Edit: I say 2 weeks, because by that point they would have an amount of time invested into the game that death would not be too damaging.
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Ter Aris
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.05.08 17:29:00 -
[28]
Dont see why you cant build into the tutorial a "pvp" encounter, where the noob gets killed, but the tutorial gives him another ship. Im sure you could tie a good story etc to this.
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Angela Toren
Amarr
Toren Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.05.08 17:48:00 -
[29]
Sorry but if players are dying in the tutorial then they need to uninstall EVE and re-install Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
_______
Oh Mindy... |
jamaican herbs
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Posted - 2008.05.08 17:51:00 -
[30]
How about a NPC wingman which helps during tutorial pew pew but dies in the end?
Then after that Aura tells a story about eve and death :D
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