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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.08 17:56:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Angela Toren
Sorry but if players are dying in the tutorial then they need to uninstall EVE and re-install Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Reading comprehension ftw.
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Taedrin
Gallente
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.05.08 18:29:00 -
[32]
Actually, I think that if there had been a tutorial about "dying" in EVE, I would have found it useful, informative and even exciting. To be honest, it could even be used to introduce new players to some of the backstory - specifically the parts about the elite social status afforded to pod pilots thanks to their immortality.
However, in order for it to work without "hurting" any new players, you would have to put strict controls on the tutorial, so that the new player ONLY dies in a rookie ship, and with a clone with no implants/significant SP loss.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.08 19:08:00 -
[33]
There is a very easy way to reward a player that dies in the tutorial.
Make it so that when he loses his ship (in a specific tutorial mission where he'll be guaranteed to lose it), he receives a higher tier frigate so that he'll feels the pain of losing something, but when he "completes" the mission he'll get new hope in the form of a better ship (RP:like an apology from the agent that he didn't calculate the risk involved either) and will be more careful next time.
Watcha think?
Boink! |
Luh Windan
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.05.08 20:30:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Or you could add a 'Get blow up' Tutorial. There the newb can go through all the steps of attacking the wrong target, exploding and hopping into a new noobship.
--- stuff: go up there ^ and read it ---
Allowing new players to go through a controlled demolition might prepare them for their first real loss and helps them to deal with it in a more confident manner. After all, getting blown up is a major part of the game and displaying it as something that isn't too much to worry about and might be actually fun, could reduce the amount of players that quit in a fit of frustration after their first uncontrolled ship loss.
Actually as a relative starter (5 months ago) - I reckon that would have been quite helpful. Stuff like boarding ships and what happens when you blow up are kind of mysterious at first .
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Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 20:41:00 -
[35]
When I first played this game back in 2004, I did the tutorial, and everything was great, then I did my first mission, just like I was told, and died. After I died, I had nothing, and I left the game. I then came back in 2005 under the wing of a friend who paid for my first few ships when I eased myself in to level 1 missions, and I haven't quit since.
You are never told that losing a ship is okay, and as a result, I got upset as a new player and left the game. Thinking about it from a WoW perspective, imagine playing WoW, doing the tutorials, getting out in to the main world, doing your first mission, then dying and losing all your armour and weaponry you just bought! In WoW that would be totally unacceptable, but in EVE, it's fine... Players don't know this, and should be taught early.
Latest Video, Click Here!
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Neth'Rae
Gallente
Neth's Workshop
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Posted - 2008.05.08 21:11:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Neth''Rae on 08/05/2008 21:11:33
Originally by: CCP Fear
This has been discussed Internally. In it's current form, the tutorial will not kill a new player, as death is not really fun in any shape or form. The resulting emotion is failure and thus he is less likely to like the game, as he already doesn't like the game based on his first attempt.
*snip*
I tend to agree, to a point. I am not that convinced that destroying a ship of a new player, make him suffer is a good strategy.
It's not like he loses anything really?
As long as you make it clear that there's no other way than to die..
Originally by: Treelox
Well I am for it. Ofc I am constantly shocked by the ammount of newbies I run across who do not start nor complete the tutorial.
Finish the tutorial - Get a Free Ship?
What about killing his ship and then giving him a brand new 'Frigate/industrial/something else?' and maybe some starting capital?
That way most people will want to complete the tutorial, some might just click away without reading just to get free stuff, but that's their loss really.. At least more people would be encouraged to do the tutorial.
And I think most people would take their time to learn since they don't have anything to lose..
The hard part would be deciding what ship you'd get, based on what spaceship skills you started with maybe?
Would be nice if it had a basic fit aswell.. Maybe the tutorial could include fitting various items to the ship.
Would be cool if Concord came and blew the ship up, and then apologized for shooting the wrong ship, and afterwards giving you a new one :D
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2008.05.08 21:40:00 -
[37]
Hmm, browsing forums when I see someone bumped up a topic I'd sortof forgotten about. All set to accuse people of shenanigans, but find out it's CCP doing it. 
Originally by: CCP Fear
I guess it all comes down to perspective, and where we can find that middle ground that suits everyone.
Or does that exist at all?
Possibly. Something like having it in the combat pilots tutorial/starter missions might work, or as seperate event agents. Acceleration gates that only handle rookieships would be useful there. That way it's something that you have an option not to get involved with.
Is ship loss still the most common reason given for cancelling subscriptions? It was a while ago.
Sort of like player puts high emotional investment into a ship, loses it, then quits. If you can sensibly reduce the emotional investment into ships, without turning EVE into something it's not, then perhaps the player won't quit? Might help with word of mouth reputation of EVE.
Losses in EVE should hurt, but also still be enjoyable.
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Falaricae
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Posted - 2008.05.08 21:55:00 -
[38]
I would hope that when people come up with possible scenarios for the tutorial, they keep in mind, that a new player has no clue about anything. He/she is just trying to ease his/her way to the game and learn about the basic mechanics. This means you don't want to put things in to the tutorial that don't happen in the actual game. Things like NPC podding you or buying you a new ship to compensate you for your ship loss. The amount of new info you need to learn as a newbie is huge and they don't need to be confused with things that are not actually in the game after the tutorial.
That said I'm all for trying to illustrate the dangerous world of EVE in the tutorial. Words don't really have a very strong impact, but some kind of event that you take actively part in propably would. What that event would be I don't really care, since my tutorial days are over.
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Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:27:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 08/05/2008 16:44:42
Originally by: CCP Fear
This has been discussed Internally. In it's current form, the tutorial will not kill a new player, as death is not really fun in any shape or form. The resulting emotion is failure and thus he is less likely to like the game, as he already doesn't like the game based on his first attempt.
Quitters are****gots, who cares?
Win :p
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: CCP Fear
I tend to agree, to a point. I am not that convinced that destroying a ship of a new player, make him suffer is a good strategy. However, it could be scripted, in such a way that it doesn't affect him. Rather that he aquires a new ship or something while doing the tutorial, while explaining that losing ships is ok, and you can always get a new one etc.
Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a long long time since my last tutorial) but don't you do your tutorial while still in your rookie ship? As in, the ship that's given to you free? And is given to you for free when you die?
By which I mean, doesn't what you suggest already happen?
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Originally by: Dark Shikari
The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
Neth'Rae
Gallente
Neth's Workshop
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Posted - 2008.05.09 01:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: ElCoCo
There is a very easy way to reward a player that dies in the tutorial.
Make it so that when he loses his ship (in a specific tutorial mission where he'll be guaranteed to lose it), he receives a higher tier frigate so that he'll feels the pain of losing something, but when he "completes" the mission he'll get new hope in the form of a better ship (RP:like an apology from the agent that he didn't calculate the risk involved either) and will be more careful next time.
Watcha think?
lol, I didn't read your post before posting mine, but now I see we got the same idea :P
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Spenz
Gallente
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.05.09 02:28:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Spenz on 09/05/2008 02:29:23
I think scripting it would be pretty neat.
Make it so that the agent sends the newbie on an easy milk-run to kill a common thug, but it turns out to be a trap, and the newbie gets blown up. You can also have a routine mission that goes bad when a wanted criminal (npc of course) warps in during a training mission your agent gives you, and you die that way.
To curb hard feelings, the tutorial agent will apologize and give you a new ship (maybe even a better one than what you started with), and will teach you all about loss and how to cope or something.
It could work.
Edit: looks like everyone is on the same track as I am. Hmm ccp, ppl are actually AGREEING in the forums. Screenshot this and think about implementing it. 
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
Zakgram
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.09 06:17:00 -
[43]
Mission: Into the depths, advanced rookie mission, optional
"We've got a major problem on our hands. Someone has stolen my quafe^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hsome really special cargo and I need you to get it back now!"
"Objectives: obtain 1 unit of <special cargo>"
"Warp through the gate, find the cargo, and return to your agent for reward. 1m isk or whatever"
Go to the gate... have the gate sounding ill - spluttering or whatever. As the player jumps through put up a big "WARNING: Jump gate has failed. Entering unknown system."
Catapult them to 0.0, somewhere about 5 jumps from low sec. Update the mission objectives to tell them that they are now lost, don't worry about getting the cargo, just get back. Set their autopilot automatically for them, and have the agent say something like "I'm really sorry... you're probably not going to survive this so I'll cover your ship and pod loss."
N00b presses autopilot. Maybe a warning about using autopilot in 0.0/low sec pops up?
On return to the station, regardless of how they do it, give them reward, replace ship/pod.
Additional bonus: they've now experienced null & low sec, gate camps, death. Or they've experienced that 0.0 is empty, low sec is quiet.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.09 07:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Zakgram
stuff
I like it! 
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Ordon Gundar
Caldari
Kingfisher Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.09 08:12:00 -
[45]
Originally by: ElCoCo
There is a very easy way to reward a player that dies in the tutorial.
Make it so that when he loses his ship (in a specific tutorial mission where he'll be guaranteed to lose it), he receives a higher tier frigate so that he'll feels the pain of losing something, but when he "completes" the mission he'll get new hope in the form of a better ship (RP:like an apology from the agent that he didn't calculate the risk involved either) and will be more careful next time.
Watcha think?
This is a more sensible idea.
"Stay Small..Fly Fast..Keep Your Ship" - Ordon Gundar - Low Sec Survivalist & CEO of Danger Zone Enterprises |
Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2008.05.09 12:07:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Poreuomai on 09/05/2008 12:08:55
Originally by: Zakgram
Catapult them to 0.0, somewhere about 5 jumps from low sec.
I love the idea.
You'd have to make it clear that this never ever happens ingame ... hmm new feature idea?
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.05.09 12:28:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Poreuomai
You'd have to make it clear that this never ever happens ingame ... hmm new feature idea?
YES! Make it possible to reprogram jumpgates to send random people to designated 0.0 systems. ^_^
---
Author of rTorrent, the BitTorrent client for real men and mice. |
Guvante
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2008.05.12 23:49:00 -
[48]
I think that explaining death is probably a good idea for the tutorial, since it is a big part of the game, but it is a weird area.
I know a number of friends that tried out the game on my suggestion, but did not try while I was there, they all responded "It was too complicated, I just died at first and never figured out what to do", all of them required alot of convincing before trying the game again after that. This was before the revamp of the tutorial, but the lesson is still pretty clear, if you destroy someones ship during a tutorial, it is a big blow to their ego, and makes it hard to continue (As CCP Fear said).
And to those who say that you need to burn into players minds early on that loss will happen and get over it, I can almost guarentee you would likely drop this game too if your first experience was massive failure :roll:.
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Ho HsienKo
Delictum 23216
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Posted - 2008.05.13 00:11:00 -
[49]
Originally by: CCP Fear
Or does that exist at all?
The Cake is a lie!
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Sniper Wolf18
Gallente
A Pretty Pony Princess
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Posted - 2008.05.13 00:23:00 -
[50]
Simple solution
Pilot is flying a rookie ship, aura instructs the pilot to engage the NPC on the tutorial. NPC promptly uses a ONE TIME ONLY massive hit bringing the rookie ship down to structure, then consecutive, smaller hits pop the rookie ship.
Aura then says "You lost your first ship, dont worry, it happens. Warp to the station and youll get fitted out with a new one." Once the pilot arrives at station aura then gives you the choice between the T1 miner or T1 Combat frigate (me being gallente that would be the atron and the navitas)
Once you get in it it is fully (T1-cheaply fitted) and has the guns loaded with ammo.
Aura then explains the fundamentals of your races combat (gallente-armor tankers-blaster gunners (for the most part)) ETC
She then instructs you to undock and kill the offending frigate in your new ship the frigate is marginally weaker and easier to kill than the first time.
This would cover: loss, replacement and revenge. Giving the noob the fundamentals of eve and a shiny new ship to go with it.
NOTE: You only get a free T1 frig when you lose a ship to that rat (can only be rookie once and then has to be the free t1 after that)once the rat is destroyed, you can NEVER kill/lose a ship to it again.
If you lose your ship to that rat twice you are given an option to skip that part of the tut
Mining-indy chars get a much easier dummy to practice on due to smaller gun-drone skills
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Vorok
Silver Aria
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Posted - 2008.05.13 01:48:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Vorok on 13/05/2008 01:55:21
It's worth noting that the sequence of events following a newbie's first pod loss are:
1) You're in a station.
2) Aura laughs at you.
3) Aura mocks you.
4) Aura finds your failure hilarious.
5) You feel much better about your first podding.
Also, the "your ship blew up, run away!" tutorial... if a newbie waits long enough for Aura to finish speaking, that pod is already toast. I think it's generally a bad idea to teach players new things in the midst of an uncontrollable PVP situation. A tutorial that makes fun of you when you just started playing can't help either.
-----
A good new player tutorial might be a CONCORD Training Complex tutorial mission that explains the laws of empire space and the ideas of PVP to newbies. No, you can't shoot that guy because he's locking you. Take from that innocent can, and you can get blown up. Yes, it's okay to salvage wrecks. No, just because that guy is yellow doesn't mean you can shoot him. Etc. Could also cover ideas about PVP by giving the newbies an impression of what will happen to them if a REAL badguy gets ahold of them in low-sec (that is, they get blown up and pod-killed).
Blowing up is a part of EVE, but it's just frustrating when you blow up and don't know WHY it happened. Arm new players with an understanding and they'll be more likely to adapt better to the first few explosions.
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The Icefox
Gallente
Under the Wings of Fury
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.05.13 03:25:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CCP Fear
I tend to agree, to a point. I am not that convinced that destroying a ship of a new player, make him suffer is a good strategy. However, it could be scripted, in such a way that it doesn't affect him. Rather that he aquires a new ship or something while doing the tutorial, while explaining that losing ships is ok, and you can always get a new one etc.
That is perhaps not the right way to go, the current way seems to be working well enough, but we can probably always do better, and we will keep doing that.
I guess it all comes down to perspective, and where we can find that middle ground that suits everyone.
Or does that exist at all?
So start him in a shuttle have him fly over to a noob ship he gets shot his shuttle goes pop and the tutorial tells him to hop into the noob ship and get revenge on that mean old nastie pirate. Problem solved.
Bored during down time? Try this. |
Maaku
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.05.13 07:14:00 -
[53]
Something similar could be done with suicide ganks (This is CONCORD, this is what they do, this is what they don't do) and/or scamming (read your contracts, trade isn't secure if you're not careful, check the confirmation window before buying/selling, don't gang with people you don't trust).
In general, new players need to know that the game mechanics permit taking advantage of the less than sufficiently wary, and with few exceptions, any dirty trick is considered fair game by CCP and the GMs will not protect you.
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Missy X
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Posted - 2008.05.13 08:25:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Missy X on 13/05/2008 08:25:31
The obvious problem with mandatory killing of a new pilot, is that it weakens the story of EVE. Why would death be mandatory if it could be avoided? Why would a corporation go to the trouble of blowing up a ship and a pod just to "teach the new pilot a lesson about death" when they can just show the pilot an instructional holoreel or something? When you learn to drive, do you deliberately don safety gear and write off a car against a tree so you learn that accidents are bad, or do you just try to avoid the damn trees like your instructor says? I see the OPs point from a 'game' point of view, but from a 'story' point of view, this idea makes no sense and doesn't really have a place in the story-driven world of EVE.
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Krxon Blade
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Posted - 2008.05.13 08:37:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Winterblink
The tutorial continues.
Later during an unrelated section of the tutorial, say something dealing with mining, or whatever, you get jumped by associates of the NPC you offed earlier. They get in, perma-scramble+web you, and proceed to tear you to bits. Helpless, your ship is blown to pieces. They leave, happy with teaching you that lesson.
Tutorial girl comes back with some RP blatherings about how they've been identified for later destruction by more experienced pilots, but for now hey that's what can happen anywhere in New Eden, so lets get you a new noob frigate.
Excellent idea.
Instead of having players protected during n00b period, let them experience "real" stuff. Its too easy to develop some kind of lowsec'o'fobia of loosing precious own ship if not podded within few starter months.
--
EVE ambulation (Full Body Avatar) character creator 1.5
EVE offline game |
LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.13 08:43:00 -
[56]
Originally by: CCP Fear
This has been discussed Internally. In it's current form, the tutorial will not kill a new player, as death is not really fun in any shape or form. The resulting emotion is failure and thus he is less likely to like the game, as he already doesn't like the game based on his first attempt.
However, this can be argued against. There are several ideas that have been passed on regarding this, such as; They would learn that the loss of a ship isn't the end of the world, move on.
I tend to agree, to a point. I am not that convinced that destroying a ship of a new player, make him suffer is a good strategy. However, it could be scripted, in such a way that it doesn't affect him. Rather that he aquires a new ship or something while doing the tutorial, while explaining that losing ships is ok, and you can always get a new one etc.
That is perhaps not the right way to go, the current way seems to be working well enough, but we can probably always do better, and we will keep doing that.
I guess it all comes down to perspective, and where we can find that middle ground that suits everyone.
Or does that exist at all?
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HarderThisTime
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Posted - 2008.05.13 08:52:00 -
[57]
I think it'd be a great idea.
Introduce them to all forms of failure, so that when they run into it later on down the road, they don't go "f*ck eve".
Start them out with shooting other players in high security with civilian weapons and introduce a civilian smartbomb and have them go smartbomb some pirates near a non-wanted structure. That'd introduce them to CONCORDOKKEN.
Next have them go to lowsec and try to mine, and explain that you'll probably run into player pirates out there. If they're lucky they'll get ganked.
Lastly take them out to 0.0, through a major pipeline, if they can even make it that far, and explain to them the complexity of 0.0 existence in a nutshell. If its through a major channel then they'll almost certainly get ganked and podded.
Tbh I wish it happened to me sooner rather than later.
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Navtiqes
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.05.13 10:27:00 -
[58]
Originally by: HarderThisTime
I think it'd be a great idea.
Introduce them to all forms of failure [etc]
I heartily agree with this.
I grew bored and left during the trial because I felt forced into waiting around in high sec to earn money and skills before visiting low/null. If the tutorial had thrown me into harms way, I might have kept playing instead of keeping away from Eve for a couple of years. It wasn't before my first pvp deaths that I got addicted.
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