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Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.03 21:26:00 - [1] Industrialist!!!!!!? Why are you in High sec? It makes no sense to be there. Why? the margins are low the risk is becoming the same as low sec. with all the wardec corps, and it takes more time to get the materials you want from the high sec ores. If you can take the NPCs you should be in low sec. why? because there are no pirates there. Maybe a roaming gang will come through, but they wont wait for their PVP like the high sec wardec corps will. Why because another roaming gang will gank them for just sitting there, or maybe they fear you have back up to flush them out. Still not convinced? Here are a few tips to help make things easier on you. 1. The most threatining thing in low sec is a gatecamp. Use a scout or a newb ship to check the system before you jump to it. better yet do remote scouting by using your map to find out how many people are in space. if it is less than 2 which most lowsec systems are, then you have a potential mining spot. 2. You dont have to take a mining barge. It would be nice if you could take one, but it is not needed. A few cheap crusiers could get the job done with minimal risk, and allow you to fast fit if you feel like defending you operation. 3 Use secure cargo containers. Why? because they are really cheap for the amount of good they provide, and can not be manipulated by pirates like Jettison cans can. If you have a large enough op going on anyways it will keep the bored hauler busy. 4. Dont go it alone. Why not bring a like minded industrialist with you. If he has a corp with one or two combat members and you have a corp with one or two combat members, then you now have two to four combat members. 5. Dock. Docking is not a bad thing. you do it in Empire when the corp is at war and the enemy is outside, you can do the same in low sec. 6. Dont be afraid. Dont be afraid of pirates. Most of them are all talk, and like to catch industrialist off gaurd. If you have a few player who can fly combat ships the solo pirate will run away. why? because unlike you he can not make isk easily, and if he looses his ship he now has to resort to using his alt/main to work for isk to buy another one, which should go directly to yuor wallet, bcause you build ships ammo and stuff. 7 Pay your workers. It is ok to pay people for their labor. It doesn't have to be the going rate for an average merc, but that aint a bad idea either. If there is a market for it, competition will come to bring down prices, and you, the industrialist, will come out on top. 8. Learn to use your scanner. More for your security crew, but it is what pirates use, and that is why they can find you in belts all the time. If you are at a loss please search it on youtube plenty o' videos there to help you. 9. Spread it out. You dont have to be in just one belt be in two belts and set up a decoy belt. that way tyou can haul your ores back to "safety while under attack". Also you dont always have to be at the same system spread the op over multiple systems. You have a group you have a mind. use both.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:08:00 - [2] So your suggestion are: make less isk, get less minerals, do it the worst way (mining in cruiser with tiny cargo space), pay other people to get bored or destroyed depending if nothing happen or if they are jumped by some serious pirate group, all that for what advantages? Giving you better targets? Giving your enemies some other thing to do so you are not bothered?
Halada Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:43:00 - [3] One of the worst thread every started in the Industry forum. Seriously, are you for real?
MentaFox StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:38:00 - [4] wow. veldspar is getting more and more profitable as we speak, so your post is just alltogether, well, wrong.
Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:22:00 - [5] Originally by: MentaFox wow. veldspar is getting more and more profitable as we speak, so your post is just alltogether, well, wrong. Well I understand your point of view if you only like selling ores and minerals, but I am talking about industrial corps who make and sell stuff. The better margins are in low sec and CCP has provided many tools for actual organized manufacturing corps to make killer profits. The margins in high sec are low and the low sec markets are undeveloped. I see how you might think this only benefits pirates, but it could benefit those who like PVP in general and those who like to make a profit period.
Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:27:00 - [6] Originally by: Venkul Mul So your suggestion are: make less isk, get less minerals, do it the worst way (mining in cruiser with tiny cargo space), pay other people to get bored or destroyed depending if nothing happen or if they are jumped by some serious pirate group, all that for what advantages? Giving you better targets? Giving your enemies some other thing to do so you are not bothered? more money NO? How? you misunderstood. I am talking about making isk here not doing anything like what you said. if all you do is mine veldspar for trit I can assure you that the price will be falling really soon. Why? because everyone is making it therefore reducing the value of it. And tbh if you think making 3-3.60 isk off trit is better than selling scourge heavies at over 100 isk a pop you must have spent too much time in that barge.
Isobe Mitsu	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:31:00 - [7] I think you have a point, you could mine in a cruiser just to test it out so if you lose ships while learning about low sec it's not expensive barges or exhumers. Low sec is good for an industrial corp, stuff is worth more so if you're in low sec mining and manufacturing you could be making a lot more and with combat support the pirates would probably think twice about attacking. If you use secure containers you can mine into them then leave them if someone suspicious comes and you can collect them later so you could do mining in low sec even solo. He's right about don't fear the pirates too, theyre targets just as much as you are so they don't want to hang around too long. I think he just wants to open people up to the idea low sec isn't as bad and dangerous as most people think, it can be just as dangerous and bad as people think too but with the right kind of thinking and preperations you can limit the risks. I kind of agree with the other posts though high sec mining is much easier and rewarding too. Potential disturbances from hostiles in low sec could seriously damage any benifit of low sec mining. If you're docked in a station because hostiles are looking for a kill in the system then you're not making any isk mining.
So SuiMe Entropy Systems Mining Co. Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:56:00 - [8] Wow, two gankbears in the industry forum. They'll never live it down when the rest of the pirates find out. Just as a side note, why don't the 2 of you actually try mining, etc for a bit in lowsec, you might actually learn why us carebears don't go to lowsec
Athamai	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Janus Cohen 1. The most threatining thing in low sec is a gatecamp. Use a scout or a newb ship to check the system before you jump to it. better yet do remote scouting by using your map to find out how many people are in space. if it is less than 2 which most lowsec systems are, then you have a potential mining spot. Lets summarize: Much higher risk. Originally by: Janus Cohen 2. You dont have to take a mining barge. It would be nice if you could take one, but it is not needed. A few cheap crusiers could get the job done with minimal risk, and allow you to fast fit if you feel like defending you operation. Lets summarize: Much lower m¦ of ore/minute. So I can go get ore valued at approximately the same ISK/m¦ at a much, much lower rate. This sounds like an excellent idea. Originally by: Janus Cohen 3 Use secure cargo containers. Why? because they are really cheap for the amount of good they provide, and can not be manipulated by pirates like Jettison cans can. If you have a large enough op going on anyways it will keep the bored hauler busy. Have you ever actually mined? How long do you think it takes to fill up a GSC? Also--If I'm in low or null sec and having issues with pirates do you REALLY think I'm worried about my ore? Please go for the ore.. Originally by: Janus Cohen 4. Dont go it alone. Why not bring a like minded industrialist with you. If he has a corp with one or two combat members and you have a corp with one or two combat members, then you now have two to four combat members. Summary: More risk. Originally by: Janus Cohen 5. Dock. Docking is not a bad thing. you do it in Empire when the corp is at war and the enemy is outside, you can do the same in low sec. Wow.. You mean I can have the fun of operating with a wardec every day? Awesome. Originally by: Janus Cohen 6. Dont be afraid. Dont be afraid of pirates. Most of them are all talk, and like to catch industrialist off gaurd. If you have a few player who can fly combat ships the solo pirate will run away. why? because unlike you he can not make isk easily, and if he looses his ship he now has to resort to using his alt/main to work for isk to buy another one, which should go directly to yuor wallet, bcause you build ships ammo and stuff. Because it's real hard to kill miners.. Originally by: Janus Cohen 7 Pay your workers. It is ok to pay people for their labor. It doesn't have to be the going rate for an average merc, but that aint a bad idea either. If there is a market for it, competition will come to bring down prices, and you, the industrialist, will come out on top. Yes.. Pay them for all the ships they lose in the wasteland of useless that is lowsec? Originally by: Janus Cohen 8. Learn to use your scanner. More for your security crew, but it is what pirates use, and that is why they can find you in belts all the time. If you are at a loss please search it on youtube plenty o' videos there to help you. Summary: More risk. Originally by: Janus Cohen 9. Spread it out. You dont have to be in just one belt be in two belts and set up a decoy belt. that way tyou can haul your ores back to "safety while under attack". Also you dont always have to be at the same system spread the op over multiple systems. You have a group you have a mind. use both. So: 1. Lowsec has ore the same ISK/m¦ as highsec. 2. Lowsec has much higher risk. 3. Lowsec has much worse m¦/Hour mining rates.(security, interruptions) Higher Risk, less Rewards. Who in their right mind would mine in lowsec?
Isobe Mitsu	Posted - 2008.05.04 04:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Athama MUCH Higher Risk, less Rewards. Who in their right mind would mine in lowsec? Fix'd
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.04 04:23:00 - [11] IMO they should add more reasons to go to low sec in general, and not just for miners. ATM there are very few reasons not to sit in high sec afk mining veldspar all day. I wish lowsec was more than a deserted wasteland. But it's that way at the moment for a reason (as pointed out, lots of risk, little or no reward), and until CCP better balances the risk/reward, it'll stay a wasteland. Which I think is a shame, but oh well.
Isobe Mitsu	Posted - 2008.05.04 04:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Boz Well IMO they should add more reasons to go to low sec in general, and not just for miners. ATM there are very few reasons not to sit in high sec afk mining veldspar all day. I wish lowsec was more than a deserted wasteland. But it's that way at the moment for a reason (as pointed out, lots of risk, little or no reward), and until CCP better balances the risk/reward, it'll stay a wasteland. Which I think is a shame, but oh well. Maybe it's meant to be that way? a place for pirates and ruthless psychopath pilots to live?
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.04 05:58:00 - [13] I really DO wish something on the order of static 10/10 plexes got added to lowsec. I'd love to see the whining when the prats find it doesn't cause solitary faction fitted CNRs to spawn for them, but instead a 2000+ man alliance moves in, with gatecamps containing more HICs and Huginns on every gate than most pirate corps have members. You think 40 man cruiser blobs are bad? Try a 5 minute lag from ships decloaking. The gankbear tears would be sweet indeed. Mining in lowsec is pure idiocy. The predator/prey relationship is skewed so heavily towards predators that in a natural environment there would be a mass extinction event. In eve, the predators can continue to feed themselves by selling GTC. =)
Xaldor hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.04 10:22:00 - [14] Unfortunately, it is not remotely viable due to the risk element. There is just nothing in low-sec belts which could come remotely come close to justify the additional risk given how flimsy and defenseless mining ships are. Ultimately, pirates are largely responsible for low-sec being largely devoid of any activity. If pirates acted more like pirates and less like vandals who destroy everything in sight then there would be significantly more activity in low-sec systems, especially the ones where there is a decent chunk of them between empire and deep space.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:58:00 - [15] Low-sec, as it stands after the introduction of the drone regions, is a whole bunch of useless for miners and industrialists. Until low-sec has somethat that can ONLY be found in low-sec it will remain a barren wasteland.
agrajag119 Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:43:00 - [16] As Pwett alluded, until there are resources only available in low-sec it will be a graveyard. If your corp has the coordination and resources to succeed in low-sec it has enough to survive out in 0.0. Low-sec profits pale in comparison, even for people just ratting for their iskies. Truly the playerbase has evolved enough that a well managed corp just starting up is far better off seeking 0.0 connections over trying to make their way in low-sec. Simply put, there is no incentive for a group looking for anything other than random small scale pvp to move into low-sec.
Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:52:00 - [17] Edited by: Janus Cohen on 04/05/2008 16:53:57 Hey! I live and mine in low sec. The reason the skew is so heavy to the predators, is because the prey doesn't work together. Me and my corp mine in low sec, and for the amount of ore you miss for filling a can, you make back by selling at a higher rate. I understand some low sec areas are riskier than others, but where I do my industrial operations there is no activity of any kind. Save for the belt rats it is practically 1.0 sec. I agree that there could be a little more reward for the risk in low sec.
Guvante GALAXIAN	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Janus Cohen Edited by: Janus Cohen on 04/05/2008 16:53:57 Hey! I live and mine in low sec. The reason the skew is so heavy to the predators, is because the prey doesn't work together. Me and my corp mine in low sec, and for the amount of ore you miss for filling a can, you make back by selling at a higher rate. I understand some low sec areas are riskier than others, but where I do my industrial operations there is no activity of any kind. Save for the belt rats it is practically 1.0 sec. I agree that there could be a little more reward for the risk in low sec. Here is why I will not be mining in low sec anytime soon: Veldspar 96 ISK/m3 Kernit 98 ISK/m3 Spoudumain 98 ISK/m3 Gneiss 218 ISK/m3 Gneiss might begin to be worthwhile, if it wasn't much more than 2x as risky to do low sec mining. And even then, the additional effort required to sell offsets that much anyway. As a note about "higher profits", you will make more money in low sec per item, but you will also move much less merchandise in the same amount of time
Slave Runner	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:54:00 - [19] Main problem of your theory: noone buys in lowsec. As simple as that. You can put the lowsec stuff on market cheaper than highsec, and you'll still sit on them 3 months later while the known alts of your local lowsec inhabitants happily buy from your highsec orders. The hauler alt takes the loot to highsec and brings back supplies.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:15:00 - [20] Isobe, it's not a place packed with ruthless pirates and psychopaths. It's mostly a deserted wasteland atm. Granted, there are some areas where you'll find some people and gate camps are more common, but the majority of low sec is desolate. You'd see more of the pirates you talk about if there were targets there, but since you'd have to be close to a psychopath to bother mining there now (solo at least), low sec mostly stays deserted. Unless you go to one of the few populated areas of low sec, you're much better off doing your pirating and what not through 0.0 space. It's supposed to be a barren, unused area of the game? Seems like a silly argument to me. But anyways, I agree completely with the people suggesting they add ore or something to low sec that is unique. That's the only hope of populating it that I see, and while you still won't see solo miners afk'ing in low sec (not for long at least ), the population will rise and you will be more likely to see more corporate mining ops there, etc.
Picabo	Posted - 2008.05.05 15:07:00 - [21] So...you are running out of targets and want more people in low sec to gank? Or You fail at high sec market competition and want people to leave. you fail
Eth1	Posted - 2008.05.08 14:30:00 - [22] If you want more corps in low sec, then show at ccp how to make the life in 0.0 easier. The current system, takes toooo much effort and game time which probably ppl in empire dont have. this is sig :P
Krulgatha	Posted - 2008.05.08 15:43:00 - [23] Edited by: Krulgatha on 08/05/2008 15:43:29 Sorry most of you dont have a ******* clue what you are on about. Q&A lets go Q) Does stuff sell in low sec? A) Yes it does. Q) Do I build stuff from what i mine and sell it in low sec? A) Yup. Q) Does it sell for more isk than high sec? A) Yes it does. Q) How many mining ships have I lost in the 6 months i've lived low sec? A) 0 Q) Can you mine undisturbed for hours on end in low sec? Solo? A) Yes you can. Yup. Q) Is low sec overated for danger? A) Most definatley. Q) How do I achieve such things? A) Good, planned fittings for percieved eventualities. Cloaking devices, t2 transports and a fear of bugger all. Q) Aren't i scared of pirates? A) No. In fact I shoot anything I can in low sec if i'm not busy and I think I can take 'em. I will shoot anyone taking my resources. Stay out of low sec if your scared and crunch all the m3/isk numbers you like..... I can sell a rifter for 700k, ty for staying out of my markets and yes this an alt. Why? lol why do you think
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2008.05.08 16:12:00 - [24] We are in low sec ATM - it is good for our business. We get moon material, POS for industry and ability to make capitals. There is minimal disruption from pirates - we escort (with ECM) what we don't want to lose, and get largely left alone. Don't set up in pirate central - choose a nice backwater, and get to know (or at least tolerate) your local pirates. Alternatively form an unofficial defensive agreement with other industrialists, and keep combat ships handy. I would recommend low sec to anyone(or 0.0 if you can stand the politics involved ), with one reservation: The way that the T2 market and moon materials are going ATM, low sec and 0.0 may lose a significant amount of profitability. I already hear of people moving out of POS operation. We hope to stay and wait for better days.
Thoram Minmatar Twin Sun Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.08 17:06:00 - [25] Why are you so eager to get corps out into lowsec or nullsec? Why can't those that wish to remain in highsec do so? Isn't it up to them to make that choice? ----------------------------------------------- Recruiting manager. Contact me if you wish to join TSS or learn more about us. -----------------------------------------------
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.08 17:14:00 - [26] The OP is clearly not a miner, and is offering poor information. There is nothing in lowsec worth mining. Lowsec does offer things that you can't do in high sec which can be very lucrative, such as moon mining and drug manufacturing. Why aren't the high sec folks flocking there? The answer is easy: people stay in empire when they don't have (or don't believe they have) the ability, for whatever reason, to handle the logistics of surviving in low sec. No ore, exploration site, mission, ratting or other isk making opportunity is going to drag people from high sec into low sec who aren't already there. -Grid
Pies Exanimo Inc Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.08 17:36:00 - [27] Edited by: Pies on 08/05/2008 17:37:00 Originally by: Krulgatha Edited by: Krulgatha on 08/05/2008 15:56:22 Sorry most of you dont have a ***** clue what you are on about. Q&A lets go Q) Does stuff sell in low sec? A) Yes it does. Q) Do I build stuff from what i mine and sell it in low sec? A) Yup. Q) Does it sell for more isk than high sec? A) Yes it does. Since when are people required to mine in lowsec so that they can sell their goods in lowsec? Build and mine in high sec then ship it out to lowsec... Its not rocket science Edit:** typo ___________________ Tasty...
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Pies Edited by: Pies on 08/05/2008 17:37:00 Originally by: Krulgatha Edited by: Krulgatha on 08/05/2008 15:56:22 Sorry most of you dont have a ***** clue what you are on about. Q&A lets go Q) Does stuff sell in low sec? A) Yes it does. Q) Do I build stuff from what i mine and sell it in low sec? A) Yup. Q) Does it sell for more isk than high sec? A) Yes it does. Since when are people required to mine in lowsec so that they can sell their goods in lowsec? Build and mine in high sec then ship it out to lowsec... Its not rocket science Edit: typo yes because shipping stuff for several jumps is free... Also try shipping battleships. Originally by:** Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
Gno Chalynn	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:26:00 - [29] Well for my 2 cents, I have mined in low sec exactly twice. the first time I thought I was cool. I mined a bit and felt ok. Second time I did it I lost my raven. So for the record, I made maybe 10,000 isk on what I mined, and lost a 100 mil ship. I have never mined in low sec since. If players want high profits mining, go 0.0. My corp joined a 0.0 alliance and that is the real money. sitting in a covetor or a hulk mining ABCS can make 10's of millions/hour. Yes an hour. even paying the security fleet a mil an hour per ship, and the haulers also. The profits are staggering. But low sec is no mans land.
IVeige	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:28:00 - [30] posting in a other 'pirate want more target' threat yawwnnn
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.08 19:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Originally by: Pies Originally by: Krulgatha Sorry most of you dont have a ***** clue what you are on about. Q&A lets go Q) Does stuff sell in low sec? A) Yes it does. Q) Do I build stuff from what i mine and sell it in low sec? A) Yup. Q) Does it sell for more isk than high sec? A) Yes it does. Since when are people required to mine in lowsec so that they can sell their goods in lowsec? Build and mine in high sec then ship it out to lowsec... Its not rocket science Edit: typo yes because shipping stuff for several jumps makes sense? The flashpoints in low sec are the chokes that grant entry. If your smart your better of mining where you settled. Krulgatha obviously knows what he's doing. He isn't stating what one should do, he's stating what he does do. Sorry but shipping is time consuming and each jump is a risk. I've mined low sec in both belts and hidden belts, I also share krulgatha's experience and the op's. Your "opinion" doesn't make logistical sense. And frankly who the hell can be arsed escorting a freighter around all the time, when you can build on location. There are people in this thread who have abandoned high sec for low and reject 0.0 and thrive as industrialists, you can't disagree with a factual reality of what these corps achieve. What reason do they have to BS. They are making the isk not you. Low sec is an economy of pvp. Pirates are lazy by nature, why log in your indy alt and fly umpteen jumps for stuff when you can dock and hop in what you want now for a price of course. That price is in exchange for saved time. This is also applicable to shipping mods built in high sec. Why bother when the materials are there alrdy and freely available with almost zero competition. The time spent hiding from pirates is quite small. Why? because the ZOMG -10 DOCK UP OMG! mentality is what costs mining time in low sec. People are in low sec (whether you want to believe it or not) doing things without the lag of empire and without the hassle of 0.0 politics. Admittedly it takes a certain group of pilots to pull it off, but hey we all gotta fit in somewhere. Also try shipping battleships. I think that Krulgatha guy manages just fine low sec mining...so why would he bother going to high sec? What you are missing is: how much can you sell in low sec?** Even if selling there I can gain 100K isk for each module instead of 50K in high sec, if in the same time frame I sell x5 modules in high sec, I will gain 250K against 100K even if I get more for a single item. The buyer pool in low sec is limited, so it is not possible to sell large quantity of material. The 10K cruise missiles or large hybrid ammunitions that a mission runner will burn in 2 level 4 missions will last quite a while for a pirate or ratter.
Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.09 07:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Gno Chalynn Well for my 2 cents, I have mined in low sec exactly twice. the first time I thought I was cool. I mined a bit and felt ok. Second time I did it I lost my raven. So for the record, I made maybe 10,000 isk on what I mined, and lost a 100 mil ship. I have never mined in low sec since. If players want high profits mining, go 0.0. My corp joined a 0.0 alliance and that is the real money. sitting in a covetor or a hulk mining ABCS can make 10's of millions/hour. Yes an hour. even paying the security fleet a mil an hour per ship, and the haulers also. The profits are staggering. But low sec is no mans land. Ravens are not miners or PVP ships mkay? Because when it is all said and done, it is about who has the most isk.
Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.09 07:26:00 - [33] Originally by: Slave Runner Main problem of your theory: noone buys in lowsec. As simple as that. You can put the lowsec stuff on market cheaper than highsec, and you'll still sit on them 3 months later while the known alts of your local lowsec inhabitants happily buy from your highsec orders. The hauler alt takes the loot to highsec and brings back supplies. to all those who dont think stuff sells in low sec I encourage you to sell some heavy missiles in low sec. I Know for a fact that they will sell practicaly for any price you want. Why? because mission runners who seek greater profits use them. Ratters use them. Pirates use them and miner security/mercs use them. If you build it they will come.... and more importantly they will bring their isk. Low sec is risky, but as thin as the margins are in high sec, and the falling price of trit., there is great oppourtubity to be had in the low sec market. A well organized corp can do some big things in low sec. Oh and you are right I dont mine much, but isnt that why you hire miners? Because in the end it is about who has the most isk. Because when it is all said and done, it is about who has the most isk.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.05.09 09:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are missing is: how much can you sell in low sec? Even if selling there I can gain 100K isk for each module instead of 50K in high sec, if in the same time frame I sell x5 modules in high sec, I will gain 250K against 100K even if I get more for a single item. The buyer pool in low sec is limited, so it is not possible to sell large quantity of material. The 10K cruise missiles or large hybrid ammunitions that a mission runner will burn in 2 level 4 missions will last quite a while for a pirate or ratter. Who said I only traded in low sec? Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.09 16:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are missing is: how much can you sell in low sec? Even if selling there I can gain 100K isk for each module instead of 50K in high sec, if in the same time frame I sell x5 modules in high sec, I will gain 250K against 100K even if I get more for a single item. The buyer pool in low sec is limited, so it is not possible to sell large quantity of material. The 10K cruise missiles or large hybrid ammunitions that a mission runner will burn in 2 level 4 missions will last quite a while for a pirate or ratter. Who said I only traded in low sec? And when that is releveant? Your market slot give less isk, the time you spend to produce there or move the finished material there give less return for unit of time, ecc. That difference is always there unless the market where you sell in high sec is so oversaturated that to sell you have to cut the gain so low that you get a better return in low sec even if the buyer pool is way lower.
Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.09 17:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Celeste Coeval Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are missing is: how much can you sell in low sec? Even if selling there I can gain 100K isk for each module instead of 50K in high sec, if in the same time frame I sell x5 modules in high sec, I will gain 250K against 100K even if I get more for a single item. The buyer pool in low sec is limited, so it is not possible to sell large quantity of material. The 10K cruise missiles or large hybrid ammunitions that a mission runner will burn in 2 level 4 missions will last quite a while for a pirate or ratter. Who said I only traded in low sec? And when that is releveant? Your market slot give less isk, the time you spend to produce there or move the finished material there give less return for unit of time, ecc. That difference is always there unless the market where you sell in high sec is so oversaturated that to sell you have to cut the gain so low that you get a better return in low sec even if the buyer pool is way lower. most if not all high sec markets are saturated. the only thing to really sale is rare materials found in low sec in high sec because everyone else is too afraid to mine there. Anyone who thinks they are going to continue making a killing on trit. is kidding themselves. Good teamork is really what is missing from low sec., not oppourtunity. Because when it is all said and done, it is about who has the most isk.
Janus Cohen Fundamental Armorments and Munitions	Posted - 2008.05.09 17:11:00 - [37] Originally by: Venkul Mul So your suggestion are: make less isk, get less minerals, do it the worst way (mining in cruiser with tiny cargo space), pay other people to get bored or destroyed depending if nothing happen or if they are jumped by some serious pirate group, all that for what advantages? Giving you better targets? Giving your enemies some other thing to do so you are not bothered? scythe FTW one of the best mining crusiers in the game. No because you use GSCs Pay them to shoot other people, and whynot pay your miners too. And Pirates in high sec get away with more murder than the low sec pirates do. lets not forget that if a pirates rating drops to low, he wont be able to harrass you in higher low sec areas. Because when it is all said and done, it is about who has the most isk.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.09 22:01:00 - [38] Originally by: Janus Cohen Originally by: Venkul Mul So your suggestion are: make less isk, get less minerals, do it the worst way (mining in cruiser with tiny cargo space), pay other people to get bored or destroyed depending if nothing happen or if they are jumped by some serious pirate group, all that for what advantages? Giving you better targets? Giving your enemies some other thing to do so you are not bothered? scythe FTW one of the best mining crusiers in the game. No because you use GSCs Pay them to shoot other people, and whynot pay your miners too. And Pirates in high sec get away with more murder than the low sec pirates do. lets not forget that if a pirates rating drops to low, he wont be able to harrass you in higher low sec areas. scythe - osprey is better, same bonus, more cargo capacity (with or without expanders, 20 m3 of drones) No because you use GSCs - I suppose it is referred to: get less minerals - and it is still true. GSC are a pity as space, you can't anchor them less than 5K meters from another GSC, they keep less material than a hulk or mack hold, so even if you fear can flipper it is better to fill a hulk and dock in station in high sec than using a GSC. Pay them to shoot other people, and whynot pay your miners too. - Pay with what? you will get less isk than in high sec and you want to spend them to pay defenders and others miners. And that you call a better result than mining in high sec? Strange math. I will instead pay a high sec mission runner to give me the bookmark of a mission with ore, it I need to pay someone. higher low sec areas - Really I can't fathom what is the meaning of this Grammar and punctuation are a great help if you try to make a readable post.
Joe Free	Posted - 2008.05.10 11:38:00 - [39] Uh - Has anyone mentioned the time that is lost for part time players trying to mine or rat in low sec. while dodging pirates or any other player in a good fighting ships wanting to make his name on a kill board ? Note = "MY Time is worth a lot to me" And not everyone has the option of carring a blob around with them everywhere they go in game. Have a nice day! And what the hell -> Eve is a good game, play it like it is. They can't give every one a 'I win button' all the time. (This is referring to other whines in the forums- sorry about that.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Stickler inc	Posted - 2008.05.10 13:03:00 - [40] Quote: Industrialist!!!!!!? Why are you in High sec? It makes no sense to be there. Why? the margins are low the risk is becoming the same as low sec. You're doing it wrong.
Elanra	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:15:00 - [41] Originally by: Janus Cohen Lets not forget that if a pirates rating drops to low, he wont be able to harrass you in higher low sec areas. What would prevent him from doing it?
Alex Salas BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Dominatus Phasmatis	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:32:00 - [42] Low sec mining works if you can lock down a dead end system. The combat types can but time while the miners dock/pos up.
Janus Cohen Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Elanra Originally by: Janus Cohen Lets not forget that if a pirates rating drops to low, he wont be able to harrass you in higher low sec areas. What would prevent him from doing it? Yes it would. It would prevent the pirate from continuing to bother you as he can nolonger mine in the security staus of your solar system... you could even bait him with an alit in a newb ship just to lower his sec status. Because when it is all said and done, it is about who has the most isk.
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.20 18:54:00 - [44] To the OP: The problem is total profit over time is better in high sec. Yes the margins are lower, but the volume is better. ex: In a month I can sell 5 cruisers in low sec at a 30% profit, but in high sec I can sell 50 cruisers at a 10% profit. Say the cruisers cost me 5mil to make and move to market (note this is not counting ship losses in the "move to market part" - we'll get to that in a minute). This means that I'll make 1.5mil profit per cruiser in low sec for a total of 7.5mil profit in the month. But for high sec I'll only make 500k profit per cruiser but 25mil in profit in the month. The problem with piracy in low sec is that it not only chases away industrialists it also chases away their customers. Incidentally since you chase away the industrialists, you also chase away the miners because guess who buys the miner's minerals... 0.0 alliances supply a sufficiency of the high end minerals at a reasonable price in high sec that it's really not worth going to low sec at all. And incidentally it's not the lack of industrialists in high sec banding together - we do that anyways. It's the lack of decent PvP pilots in high sec to protect the miners. Incidentally when at war an industrial corp temporarily looses 75% of it's non-pvp pilots on average. These are the ones who either can't adapt to the pvp situation and go: "I'll be skilling/on an alt for this week, leme know when the war is over". These include the ones who go out singly vs the wardecers in battle cruisers (This causes lots of alliance leaders in high sec to bash their heads against the wall) and THEN go "I'll be skilling/on an alt for this week, leme know when the war is over". The remaining 25% are smart enough to use intel channels and move their operations in out of the way places and make sure to keep in touch with the pvp pilots if they want to mine/ship stuff arround, or they join in the pvp (preferably as scouts/tacklers). In High sec the area is big enough that you can actually dodge the war-dec'ers medium effectively. We can get very good intel on war-decking corps in high sec usually. Then good scouting and piloting will usually nail down the position of all known war targets allowing operational planing to avoid the enemy (and get plenty of warning if it looks like they are about to go for an industrial op). This is pretty pointless in low sec since there's ALWAYS someone trying to tree you. PvP pilots have this habit of roaming because sitting still will usually get you killed. I've got news for you, industrial pilots are FORCED to stay in the same spot. If you get chased into a station once per hour and your get only 1/5 of the minerals you can get in high sec - I've got news for you the minerals in low sec are only worth twice as much as high sec - do the math. Due to lost time in stations (or POSs) or what ever, the risk vs reward equations work out to: stay in high sec. I believe I mentioned the lack of combat pilots in high sec? Trust me they tend to move to 0.0 if they are any good at all. Withing a month. If they are not so good they tend to become pirates in low sec. Pay them? To make it worth it they would have to insure relatively un-interrupted industrial ops every day for weeks on end. The number of PvP pilots that this takes is rediculous. Remember the best the pvpers can do is maybe up my mining time from 1/5 to 4/5 of the time and even saying "half to the pvp'ers and half to the miners" means I loose all my miners cuz they can make more in high sec. And I'd loose the PvPers cuz they could make more running missions. The only reason to go into low sec for industrialists is to do stuff we can't do in high sec. Moon mining and capital construction. That's it. Both doable at a POS which has the advantage of being defensible. And incidentally that's also a better thing to warp to than a station. Not going to happen unless the rewards of low sec go up.
Mobius Timewalker Cadian Special Operations Command Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2008.05.21 19:59:00 - [45] Ok i not really been in low sec much, espicaly never as a trader/industrialist Are the NPC station taxes there lower? if not that may help a bit
Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.05.21 20:08:00 - [46] Letrange has it; and just to emphasize a point he made in his conclusion: Not going to happen unless the rewards of low sec go up "relatively to both high and null sec. High sec = safe, low margins high volume 0.0 sec = safe, high margins low volume low sec = unsafe, medium margins medium volume. Technically speaking all the margins over / time even out - until you look at the risk factors. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony

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