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Alexis Machine Minmatar Ceraphite Technologies	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:35:00 - [31] America Inc. Land of the (buy one get one) free! Someone said something about thongs?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:35:00 - [32] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 06/05/2008 04:43:11 Sorry to burst your bubble but actually Americans are among the oldest, continuously functioning, participatory democracies on earth. Just not probably what you had in mind. They were called The Six Nations and are commonly known today by the name Iroquois Indians. They lived in what is now New York state and near as I can make it were doing their thing since around 1150AD. Not sure if the Icelanders beat them out here although I think they might edge them out date-wise. "The Iroquois Confederacy with the government of Iceland and the Swiss cantons are the oldest continuously functioning democracies on earth. All three precedents have been cited as forerunners of the United States system of representative democracy." (cite) -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Protrade Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:42:00 - [33] Originally by: Alexis Machine America Inc. Land of the (buy one get one) free! Someone said something about thongs? You forgot that we must overpay for the first item by 3x to get the second one free Victoria's Secret cough _____________________________________ Wealth is not determined by assets or liquid isk. It is determined by the amount of caracals in your possession.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:46:00 - [34] Originally by: Protrade Originally by: Alexis Machine America Inc. Land of the (buy one get one) free! Someone said something about thongs? You forgot that we must overpay for the first item by 3x to get the second one free Victoria's Secret cough I'm pretty sure I saw a Victoria's Secret in the Kringlan Mall during Fanfest. Not 100% on that though. I was kinda wandering around aimlessly.
Dr Qu Caldari Gone Viking	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:48:00 - [35] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 06/05/2008 04:43:11 Sorry to burst your bubble but actually Americans are among the oldest, continuously functioning, participatory democracies on earth. Just not probably what you had in mind. They were called The Six Nations and are commonly known today by the name Iroquois Indians. They lived in what is now New York state and near as I can make it were doing their thing since around 1150AD. Not sure if the Icelanders beat them out here although I think they might edge them out date-wise. "The Iroquois Confederacy with the government of Iceland and the Swiss cantons are the oldest continuously functioning democracies on earth. All three precedents have been cited as forerunners of the United States system of representative democracy." (cite) We Europeans prefer to call them Native Americans, since calling them Americans might cause some US Citizens to think we're talking about them! And we just cant give any American any credit for doing anything! And we all know what happens then! Well, if anyone does know, do tell me! I would like to know! :: "In hullintegrity we trust" ::
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Dirk Magnum The Althing is the oldest parliamentary body on Earth. Pwnd. Only if you mean oldest still existing parliamentary body on earth. Longest continuously functional IIRC. Nope - between 1799 and 1844, it didn't exist, and for about 400 years before that it was just a court and not a legislature. Westminster is the oldest continuous legislature around by a massive margin, but Britain can't properly be considered a democracy until about the 1830s, which is when the monarchy really started to retreat. So yeah, the United States really is the longest-running democracy still extant in the world, at least if you define the terms in a certain way. The language around such claims is really malleable, but the US has a good claim on the title. (And before you start attacking me, no, I'm not American)
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:51:00 - [37] Originally by: Spoon Thumb Ah, I love the way so many Americans think they invented Democracy. They're .... just... so... well meaning ironically, most of us suck at understanding and applying it correctly. look at that politician. they promised they'd give me everything i want. they promised. where do i sign? we need a national judgment test before people are allowed to vote. You're doing it wrong.
Corduroy Rab Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:53:00 - [38] It has been fun watching this thread evolve, soon enough we will be discussing the sexuality of Mary Todd Lincoln.
Fredior Khan'Sebies Minmatar Mikramurka Solace	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 06/05/2008 04:43:11 Sorry to burst your bubble but actually Americans are among the oldest, continuously functioning, participatory democracies on earth. Just not probably what you had in mind. They were called The Six Nations and are commonly known today by the name Iroquois Indians. They lived in what is now New York state and near as I can make it were doing their thing since around 1150AD. Not sure if the Icelanders beat them out here although I think they might edge them out date-wise. "The Iroquois Confederacy with the government of Iceland and the Swiss cantons are the oldest continuously functioning democracies on earth. All three precedents have been cited as forerunners of the United States system of representative democracy." (cite) From that citation: Under Haudenosaunee law, clan mothers choose candidates (who are male) as chiefs. The women also maintain ownership of the land and homes, and exercise a veto power over any council action that may result in war. Not by any stretch of the imagination anything to do with Euroamerican traditions. I somehow don't think that the Confederacy can be considered continued in the U.S. government. I thought about that as a cited influence on the original Confederacy of States, but that model broke down when implemented within a European context in a matter of years and thought better of it. Simply because they used a system of consensus and democracy (and in fact was an ongoing democracy wherein leaders had to constantly protect the consensus rather than having terms of offices) does not mean that our system is built on it. European Enlightenment principles were descended from a completely different school of thought and experience, which was reflected in the framing of the Constitution and implementation of the subsequent system of government.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:56:00 - [40] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 06/05/2008 04:57:41 WHAT?!?! The US is a democracy??? I thought you can buy the president titel just with money in the US :(. And when the hell does Bill Gates buys it??? PS: dam, forgot that he want to wast all his money to buy YAHOO
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Mr Fresh The US has electoral colleges and primaries... neither of which are fundamentally democratic in any way You need to revisit your civics classes. First of all primaries are merely means of electing a candidate for a party. As such they can be setup any way they choose. If you want to start the Mr Fresh party you can dictate any rules you like to be that party's candidate on the ballot for the general election. Democratic or otherwise. A party is just a group of people who band together to see their guy win is all and the means of choosing them is up to that group. So, while it may not be "democratic" there is zero reason it needs to be. As for the Electoral College yes it seems undemocratic but it forces candidates to appeal to a broader range of voters. If it was merely a "who gets the most votes" system then all you need to do is win the white vote in the US and you win. No need to appeal to other groups. Such sectionalism is a problem in other countries such as China or India. Think of it this way. Imagine the election as the World Series of baseball (no need to remark on "World" being a misnomer here). The teams play the best out of 7 games. Your way would give the victory to the team which scored the most runs in 7 games (popular vote). The electoral system gives the win to the team who wins 4 games. So say your team had a blowout in Game 1 and scored 12-2. In the next 4 games the other team wins 0-2. Your system would have the team who won game #1 as the overall winner (12-10) yet I think most people are fine with saying the winner of the series is the team who won the most games. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:08:00 - [42] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 06/05/2008 05:10:56 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So yeah, the United States really is the longest-running democracy still extant in the world, at least if you define the terms in a certain way. The language around such claims is really malleable, but the US has a good claim on the title. 332 years between the founding of the Althing and Iceland's submission to Norway in 1262. That alone is longer-lived than the American republic thus far.
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:12:00 - [43] Ahem.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed (I say doomed!) to repeat it. At least I have chicken
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies Not by any stretch of the imagination anything to do with Euroamerican traditions. This has been a subject of scholarly debate for sometime. While there is disagreement the notion is far from being rejected out of hand: Quote: Though these proponents agree that is challenging to find hard and fast historical documentation that creates linear relationships between Iroquois thought and the thinking of the Founding Fathers, they argue that if one were to view the threads of historical information that demonstrate influential ideas, contact, and structural similarities as a whole, one could easily knit together a persuasive case for what is known in scholarly circles as the influence thesis, or the idea that the Iroquois Confederacy had a real and significant influence on the development of the U.S. Constitution. Johansen makes a persuasive argument that significant contact between the Founding Fathers and Iroquois leaders took place. As early as 1744, Ben Franklin was using his publishing capabilities to turn out quotes from an Onandaga* Tadadaho (speaker) Canasetoga, giving advice to the American colonists as their first whiffs of dissatisfaction with their countrymen in England were brewing. SOURCE: Iroquois Confederacy and the Influence Thesis -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Evita Achura Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Vulal Edited by: Vulal on 06/05/2008 02:57:11 Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Rhiol We brought democracy to Iceland!!! Mission Accomplished!!! I hope we avoid any nasty insurrections. That just ruins the fun for all of us. But the US is a republic....? Looks like someone Forgot about referendoms and primaries in civics class. Calling America a repulic on the whole is like saying china is a republic because they call it the peoples republic of China doesn't mean it actually is. I believe the correct term is representative democracy. Which is similar to no democracy at all since the representatives are quite corrupt, Just look at Ted Kenedy. Also shouldn't this thread be in out of pod experience?
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:21:00 - [46] YOUR MOM is like a parliamentary body; every man... every man gets.... ... **** someone complete this for me plz.
Evita Achura Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Dirk Magnum YOUR MOM is like a parliamentary body; every man... every man gets.... ... **** someone complete this for me plz. When comparing a mother to a parliamentary body the only word that comes to mind is incest... I think it best if we don't pursue that any farther.
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Evita Achura Also shouldn't this thread be in out of pod experience? EVE birthday. No forum moderation. Patch day tomoz. Nuff said.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:26:00 - [49] Edited by: Zeba on 06/05/2008 05:25:53 True Democracy died in America in the year 1961. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdrGKwkmxAU inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:36:00 - [50] Pffft! My grandpa beat all your grandpa's. Truefax fax! It is better to die for the emperor than to live for yourself.
Mr Fresh	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:51:00 - [51] Edited by: Mr Fresh on 06/05/2008 05:54:37 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Mr Fresh The US has electoral colleges and primaries... neither of which are fundamentally democratic in any way You need to revisit your civics classes. First of all primaries are merely means of electing a candidate for a party. As such they can be setup any way they choose. If you want to start the Mr Fresh party you can dictate any rules you like to be that party's candidate on the ballot for the general election. Democratic or otherwise. A party is just a group of people who band together to see their guy win is all and the means of choosing them is up to that group. So, while it may not be "democratic" there is zero reason it needs to be. As for the Electoral College yes it seems undemocratic but it forces candidates to appeal to a broader range of voters. If it was merely a "who gets the most votes" system then all you need to do is win the white vote in the US and you win. No need to appeal to other groups. Such sectionalism is a problem in other countries such as China or India. Think of it this way. Imagine the election as the World Series of baseball (no need to remark on "World" being a misnomer here). The teams play the best out of 7 games. Your way would give the victory to the team which scored the most runs in 7 games (popular vote). The electoral system gives the win to the team who wins 4 games. So say your team had a blowout in Game 1 and scored 12-2. In the next 4 games the other team wins 0-2. Your system would have the team who won game #1 as the overall winner (12-10) yet I think most people are fine with saying the winner of the series is the team who won the most games. err.. Delegates decide which candidate goes forward... they need not follow the vote in their district (though obviously they usually do)... then there's the issue with Superdelegates... Same for electoral colleges... there is no requirement that popular votes are paid attention to. I don't necessarily have a problem with the system, but I don't view it as democratic.. I look it as Educated PseudoDemocracy. Basically the same result, wholly different process, in theory. Again, I don't view it as necessarily a bad thing, but it's nowhere as 'purely voter based' as other systems. edit: in Canada, the PM is voted secondarily by people voting for the party he represents. His party members are directly voted in and he is indirectly voted in. Is his election directly democratic? Lol, not unless you are only voting for him and not his party.
Fredior Khan'Sebies Minmatar Mikramurka Solace	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:01:00 - [52] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies Not by any stretch of the imagination anything to do with Euroamerican traditions. This has been a subject of scholarly debate for sometime. While there is disagreement the notion is far from being rejected out of hand: Quote: Though these proponents agree that is challenging to find hard and fast historical documentation that creates linear relationships between Iroquois thought and the thinking of the Founding Fathers, they argue that if one were to view the threads of historical information that demonstrate influential ideas, contact, and structural similarities as a whole, one could easily knit together a persuasive case for what is known in scholarly circles as the influence thesis, or the idea that the Iroquois Confederacy had a real and significant influence on the development of the U.S. Constitution. Johansen makes a persuasive argument that significant contact between the Founding Fathers and Iroquois leaders took place. As early as 1744, Ben Franklin was using his publishing capabilities to turn out quotes from an Onandaga* Tadadaho (speaker) Canasetoga, giving advice to the American colonists as their first whiffs of dissatisfaction with their countrymen in England were brewing. SOURCE: Iroquois Confederacy and the Influence Thesis Fake edit: I am willing to concede this point because it's just too damn complicated to get into on a forum like this. Wish we could take a seminar class together, I have a feeling we could have some really good discussions. And probably put the rest of the class to sleep
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:09:00 - [53] US of A, a free country with lots of opportunities and democratic elections, where you can choose between Lucifer and Satan really a Big deal
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:13:00 - [54] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 06/05/2008 05:10:56 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So yeah, the United States really is the longest-running democracy still extant in the world, at least if you define the terms in a certain way. The language around such claims is really malleable, but the US has a good claim on the title. 332 years between the founding of the Althing and Iceland's submission to Norway in 1262. That alone is longer-lived than the American republic thus far. You'll note I used the words "still extant". The Althing, in that incarnation, is not still extant, it has been eliminated, and a new, similar, body with the same name was formed six centuries later. Of the democratic systems of governance (of nations, I don't want to debate sub-national legislatures here) with continuous existence up to the modern day, the English/British House of Commons is the oldest, but its power was hemmed in pretty dramatically up until about the 1830s, or arguably even the 1910s. As such, the United States government probably is the best claimant on the title of "longest continuous democracy"- it's not nearly as old as the Westminster system, but it's been democratic longer. Originally by: Dirk Magnum YOUR MOM is like a parliamentary body; every man... every man gets.... ... **** someone complete this for me plz. Every man gets to put his ballot in?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:16:00 - [55] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 06/05/2008 06:29:56 Originally by: Mr Fresh err.. Delegates decide which candidate goes forward... they need not follow the vote in their district (though obviously they usually do)... then there's the issue with Superdelegates... First off you need to rid yourself of the notion that primary elections are required to be democratic. All the US government has to say about anything is the actual election for President. How a candidate gets on that ballot differs from state to state. However, there need be no election whatsoever. You could get on the ballot for US President (assuming you met the few Constitutional qualifications) by running around from state-to-state and doing what they require which is usually nothing more than collecting sufficient signatures asking you be placed on the ballot. A political party is merely a group that organizes to see this happen (all those folks standing outside supermarkets asking you to sign) and get their guy (or gal) on the ballot. That group can choose ANY means they want to pick their candidate. Pull them out of a hat, see who can drink the most beer before passing out...anything. If you think that method unfair you are free to associate yourself with a different party or start your own. As for voting at the convention the pledge delegates (the ones chosen by the voters) must cast their vote for their pledged candidate on the first round. If there is no winner then the horse trading begins and they can vote for whoever they want. Of course it is worth noting that a delegate to a convention is quite literally "your guy". For instance if Clinton wins New York she sends her people to the floor. If Obama won he'd send his own (different) people to the floor. So, the chances of faithless delegates is possible in practice it rarely happens. Superdelegates are a whole other thing and I strongly suspect after this go around the Dems will modify their election rules somewhat dramatically. Quote: Same for electoral colleges... there is no requirement that popular votes are paid attention to. I noted above why the "popular vote" can be a perfectly awful way to elect a president. For instance "pure" capitalism stinks and is unworkable in practice. So too "pure" democracy is not in the best interests of a democracy. The electoral college evades some of the pitfalls of a "pure" democracy and in the end results in a more representative democracy which is the whole point of a democracy. That is a good thing. And again with faithless electors (ones who try to vote for someone else) this is not only very rare many (but not all) states have laws against it. Even for those states with no such laws remember the elector is literally your guy. If he/she votes against you they seriously mess themselves up as one of the party faithful and pretty much end their careers in that arena. Just not in their self interest. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Dirk Magnum The Althing is the oldest parliamentary body on Earth. Pwnd. Only if you mean oldest still existing parliamentary body on earth. Longest continuously functional IIRC. Not that Iceland was independent during the whole period of Althing functional existance, and in other news Iceland also got independent by default. Denmark sovereignty was not around to sign the contract we had with them due to some swastika waving fanatics occupying their country. Yub, our history if independence sure is interesting and awe inspiring :)
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:14:00 - [57] IBTL for politics
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:17:00 - [58] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Considering that "democracy" is indistinguishable from "republic" in American vernacular when referring to popularly elected governments, can we stop arguing the semantics. Yes there's a difference in the definition of the two. No, America isn't a direct democracy. Someone mentioned thongs earlier in this thread. Lets talk about that. Personally, I'm against it (on large people.) Why do you want to talk about rubber footwear?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:47:00 - [59] Edited by: Tippia on 06/05/2008 07:55:23 Sigh… the old Republic vs. Democracy debate. Time for some copypasta. "Republic" and "democracy" are not mutually exclusive because they sit on completely different axes: Republic (n) A state in which the supreme power rests in the people and their elected representatives or officers, as opposed to one governed by a king or similar ruler; a commonwealth. Now also applied loosely to any state which claims this designation. Democracy (n) Government by the people; that form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people as a whole, and is exercised either directly by them (as in the small republics of antiquity) or by officers elected by them. Republic (as opposed to monarchy) describes who wields the executive power of the state: an elected official, rather than someone of a hereditary rank. Democracy (as opposed to dictatorship) describes who decides how the government is put together: the general public, rather than a single despot. Between these two axes, you can have any kind of combination: Democratic republics (US, France, Germany, India); Dictatorial republics (ye olde banana repulic); Democratic monarchies (UK, Sweden, Australia, Canada); Dictatorial monarchies (ye olde feudal state). Neither of the two can exist on their own. You cannot simply be "a republic" because you need to decide who that republic represents: the people or the one guy in charge, and without that representation you have no claim to sovereignty as a nation. Likewise, you cannot simply be "a democracy" because you need to determine what the people is deciding on -- without it, you have no state. Therefore, claiming that "we are a republic, not a democracy" is the equivalent of saying "we have these elected guys in charge of something, but we are not a sovereign nation" (unless, of course, by "not a democracy" you mean you're a dictatorship).
Darkfury Beta	Posted - 2008.05.06 08:59:00 - [60] How can any country that has only been around a couple of hundred years claim to have invented democracy?

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