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Indicators for Success

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Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 19:58:00 - [1] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 07/05/2008 20:00:56 This post discusses different indicators for success with reference to alliances, with the naive intention to contribute to a more objective discussion about the success and failure of alliance in New Eden. I am playing EVE for about a year now and I am running several accounts with characters in different alliances - not to act as a spy - but to get deeper insights in how alliances are organized and how they are lead. I have chosen the alliance I stayed in, depending on their "management philosophy" and depending on their "corporate culture" and found totally different approaches. In RL I work as a management consultant and therefore have a natural interest in this topic. For somebody who has no idea about the depth and the complexity of this game, it is a great surprise to learn about the pure size of alliances, about the organization structures, the spectrum of applied management philosohpies and - which is the most interesting part of it - the issues alliance leaders have to solve every single day. The parallels to RL companies is impressing and therefore it also makes sense to judge the success or failure of alliance in New Eden, with similar benchmarks as in RL. What makes it difficult, is the fact, that we are talking about a game - where people try to judge, as you would judge a game: has a alliance won or lose? - but: the complexity of this game is far beyond winning or losing. Alliances in this game can win in terms of: "winning a match" but still fail with solving their management issues, what can result in the end of an alliance - and of course the opposite - alliance can fail in terms of: "winning a match" but really excel in solving their management issues. Therefore it's really difficult to judge, if somebody is losing or winning. Let me give you two popular and polarizing examples: Goonswarm: From the gaming point of view, they are at the moment on the peak of their success in terms of "winning a match" - when you take the indicator "holding space" as the most important indicator. This alliances, who has once been removed from 0.0, had an amazing comeback after that and has shown the rest of New Eden, how to organize a very quick growth and how get to the pole position of the alliance ranking quickly. But if you try to judge their success or failure in the game, based on how their management solves the issues, which have arisen due to dicisions which have been made, they are maybe the big losers of the game, not able to handle their alliance any more. I would even say, that their management has widely lost control over their membership and therefore lost control over their future. Band of Brothers: From the gaming point of view, they are (or better have been a few weeks/months ago) the clear losers of the game, because they have lost a lot of space. And it doesn't matter, under which circumstances they have lost it. They have lost it - they therefore earn less money than before, they have less power over New Eden than before - that's it. Compare these two alliances based on this pretty game driven indicator and the situation is clear. But if you look at how BoB has solved the issues, which have arisen with this massive attack against them, it is amazing how well their management was able to handle this situation. They made the right strategical decisions, they sacrificed a lot of their power to their long-term advantage and have been very good in terms of internal communication and crisis management. I had this insight over the last year - because I have characters in both alliances - and just comparing and analysing this two different corporate cultures and management methods could be the topic of a whole book about management of corporation in RL. ... to be continued ...
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:00:00 - [2] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 07/05/2008 20:00:36 From a management point of view, BoB is the clear winner at the moment, due to the fact that they are able to manage a big crisis and Goonswarm seems to be the loser - in the long run - because they seem to fail with the management of arising crises. ... still writing ...
Mr McDee Ancient Crew	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:02:00 - [3] tldr version: BoB are losers, Goons are winners. Booorrrrrring
Shinori GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:03:00 - [4] Very intresting read, I agree with points 1,3,7,14, but will have to disagree with you on 4 and 17, and I think you know why.
Mr Poaster BBQ 06 Planning Committee	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:04:00 - [5] Hard to say. Semiamusing troll or fail post ?
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:17:00 - [6] funny, last time I checked both Alliances where alive and pew pewing, so no one lost there except the ones who vanquished, like D2, LV....
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:19:00 - [7] Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:37:00 - [8] I think actually is not possbile to look back to make a kind of objective judgement about "BoB vs Goons". What would be nice, if it would be a habit of big alliance to publish their long-term objectives on COAD. Maybe their goals for the next 3, 6 and 12 months.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:07:00 - [9] Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. You should read kugs website, it shows you the truth and the error of your ways. Quite ironic, it is. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
William DeMeo Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:19:00 - [10] Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. When you guys were in Delve it was stated by me that you would win if you took all of BoB's space. You didn't, so if you consider the war to be over it was a draw. Kind of like Vietnam. Yarr
Gontard Minmatar E-Truth	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:30:00 - [11] james is that you?
VinkNut Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:36:00 - [12] There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:47:00 - [13] Clear Flaimbait topic. Good written but still flaimbait. Everybody defines success on their own way. or power or influence and all that. To argue about who has acchieved what/who won/who lost is only creating flames.
Siminuria Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Vanessa Vernandez In RL I work as a management consultant and therefore have a natural interest in this topic. Does anyone want to build him a B ark? Oh, and ofc the obvious reasons for not stating your alliances goals are: 1) If everyone knows what you are going to do you can't backstab people. b) If you don't state your aims, you can't fail and any successes you may have are bonus ammunition to fire up your members and bash your adversaries with on CAOD.
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:55:00 - [15] Originally by: VinkNut There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that. thats your advantage over rall other alliances tho. you sit in a region which is partially npc colonized thus making invasions impossible and you have pretty good agents there aswell. ccp created a small pocket of the eve univers combining the most valuable rescources in one spot and you mamanged to get there before anyone knew this. that is an achivement ofc. but this is nothing to be too proud about. the russians for example are making enuff money out of all their conquered dyspo and prom moons to pay their subscriptions via isk for the next years... Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
geno effort GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:17:00 - [16] Originally by: VinkNut There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that. With all the t2 bpo's you were spawned with it's hard not to.
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. You should read kugs website, it shows you the truth and the error of your ways. Quite ironic, it is. Yeah I probably made it too complicated still. I'll try again. BoB fight for much space. BoB talk lots about be awesome. Goons take space away. BoB make alternate universe to save honor.
Moran Trayga State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:37:00 - [18] Originally by: OldPueblo Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. You should read kugs website, it shows you the truth and the error of your ways. Quite ironic, it is. Yeah I probably made it too complicated still. I'll try again. BoB fight for much space. BoB talk lots about be awesome. Goons take space away. BoB make alternate universe to save honor. You missed the bit about kugutswhatshisname releasing/hacking/whatever bob's forums and revealing their true plans. As in it wasn't just to take all of 0.0 but for t3h f1ghtzz. - MORAN TRAYGA -
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Moran Trayga You missed the bit about kugutswhatshisname releasing/hacking/whatever bob's forums and revealing their true plans. As in it wasn't just to take all of 0.0 but for t3h f1ghtzz. Everyone got fightz, except BoB got fightz and lost all their space and had members ragequit. I reiterate, by BoB's own overly vocalized standards they got squashed. And since you can't actually force an alliance to disband its doors due to no CCP game mechanic, that's pretty much it. Case closed. Now if they want to change their structure and plans and morph into something new AFTERWARDS in some kind "we always meant this BBQ rebirth", then that's a whole different thing altogether.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Gontard james is that you? James had a different, and in my opinion, superior writing style. Can I get a TL DR version of this? I'm at work and don't feel like wrestling a text wall.
NOL Waiter Dining in NOL Enterprises.	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:04:00 - [21] Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:05:00 - [22] Originally by: NOL Waiter Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator. Excellent analogy good sir.
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:05:00 - [23] Originally by: NOL Waiter Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator. ALTS HAVE NO HONOR TBQH. And what's so embarrassing about the most natural thing you can share with another person?
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:08:00 - [24] Originally by: OldPueblo Originally by: NOL Waiter Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator. ALTS HAVE NO HONOR TBQH. And what's so embarrassing about the most natural thing you can share with another person? The smell?
Moran Trayga State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:10:00 - [25] Originally by: OldPueblo lost all their space Methinks you are just a little misinformed. - MORAN TRAYGA -
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Moran Trayga Originally by: OldPueblo lost all their space Methinks you are just a little misinformed. Methinks you should post with your main.
Quesa Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:12:00 - [27] The true winner of the battle won't come from some well though out and presented post, nor will the ever pressing and digressing opinions of the CAOD posters. It will come long after, when the history of the battle and it's followings that will decide. It's way to hard to dive right into an analysis of a universal conflict when the smoke is still clearing.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:18:00 - [28] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 07/05/2008 23:18:49 Originally by: Quesa The true winner of the battle won't come from some well though out and presented post, nor will the ever pressing and digressing opinions of the CAOD posters. It will come long after, when the history of the battle and it's followings that will decide. It's way to hard to dive right into an analysis of a universal conflict when the smoke is still clearing. sure - this post doesn't try to answer, who is "the true winner of the battle" of the southern war. I am sure, that I stated out in detail, that depending on your perspective it could be both - and that I haven't argued in favour of any the involved parties. I want to point out, that there are many different perspectives and that in the end the depth, complexity and also the liberties of this game, only let you the opinion to judge alliance depending on what they claim to achieve.
fugazii Deep Space Productions	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Reto Originally by: VinkNut There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that. thats your advantage over rall other alliances tho. you sit in a region which is partially npc colonized thus making invasions impossible and you have pretty good agents there aswell. ccp created a small pocket of the eve univers combining the most valuable rescources in one spot and you mamanged to get there before anyone knew this. that is an achivement ofc. but this is nothing to be too proud about. the russians for example are making enuff money out of all their conquered dyspo and prom moons to pay their subscriptions via isk for the next years... Blood Raiders were kicked out of empire by the Amarr Empire into 0.0 in an event more than a year after BoB conquered the space from FA. If anything, a small pocket of npc stations works against them in an invasion. Since it provides a 100% immune to attack base for their attackers to stage out of. "There is nothing they can do to counter 5000 f*****g Goons logged in and ready to go." - darius JOHNSON
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:23:00 - [30] INCOMING ALT POSTS! Brace yourself!

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