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Indicators for Success

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Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 19:58:00 - [1] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 07/05/2008 20:00:56 This post discusses different indicators for success with reference to alliances, with the naive intention to contribute to a more objective discussion about the success and failure of alliance in New Eden. I am playing EVE for about a year now and I am running several accounts with characters in different alliances - not to act as a spy - but to get deeper insights in how alliances are organized and how they are lead. I have chosen the alliance I stayed in, depending on their "management philosophy" and depending on their "corporate culture" and found totally different approaches. In RL I work as a management consultant and therefore have a natural interest in this topic. For somebody who has no idea about the depth and the complexity of this game, it is a great surprise to learn about the pure size of alliances, about the organization structures, the spectrum of applied management philosohpies and - which is the most interesting part of it - the issues alliance leaders have to solve every single day. The parallels to RL companies is impressing and therefore it also makes sense to judge the success or failure of alliance in New Eden, with similar benchmarks as in RL. What makes it difficult, is the fact, that we are talking about a game - where people try to judge, as you would judge a game: has a alliance won or lose? - but: the complexity of this game is far beyond winning or losing. Alliances in this game can win in terms of: "winning a match" but still fail with solving their management issues, what can result in the end of an alliance - and of course the opposite - alliance can fail in terms of: "winning a match" but really excel in solving their management issues. Therefore it's really difficult to judge, if somebody is losing or winning. Let me give you two popular and polarizing examples: Goonswarm: From the gaming point of view, they are at the moment on the peak of their success in terms of "winning a match" - when you take the indicator "holding space" as the most important indicator. This alliances, who has once been removed from 0.0, had an amazing comeback after that and has shown the rest of New Eden, how to organize a very quick growth and how get to the pole position of the alliance ranking quickly. But if you try to judge their success or failure in the game, based on how their management solves the issues, which have arisen due to dicisions which have been made, they are maybe the big losers of the game, not able to handle their alliance any more. I would even say, that their management has widely lost control over their membership and therefore lost control over their future. Band of Brothers: From the gaming point of view, they are (or better have been a few weeks/months ago) the clear losers of the game, because they have lost a lot of space. And it doesn't matter, under which circumstances they have lost it. They have lost it - they therefore earn less money than before, they have less power over New Eden than before - that's it. Compare these two alliances based on this pretty game driven indicator and the situation is clear. But if you look at how BoB has solved the issues, which have arisen with this massive attack against them, it is amazing how well their management was able to handle this situation. They made the right strategical decisions, they sacrificed a lot of their power to their long-term advantage and have been very good in terms of internal communication and crisis management. I had this insight over the last year - because I have characters in both alliances - and just comparing and analysing this two different corporate cultures and management methods could be the topic of a whole book about management of corporation in RL. ... to be continued ...
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:00:00 - [2] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 07/05/2008 20:00:36 From a management point of view, BoB is the clear winner at the moment, due to the fact that they are able to manage a big crisis and Goonswarm seems to be the loser - in the long run - because they seem to fail with the management of arising crises. ... still writing ...
Mr McDee Ancient Crew	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:02:00 - [3] tldr version: BoB are losers, Goons are winners. Booorrrrrring
Shinori GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:03:00 - [4] Very intresting read, I agree with points 1,3,7,14, but will have to disagree with you on 4 and 17, and I think you know why.
Mr Poaster BBQ 06 Planning Committee	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:04:00 - [5] Hard to say. Semiamusing troll or fail post ?
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:17:00 - [6] funny, last time I checked both Alliances where alive and pew pewing, so no one lost there except the ones who vanquished, like D2, LV....
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:19:00 - [7] Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:37:00 - [8] I think actually is not possbile to look back to make a kind of objective judgement about "BoB vs Goons". What would be nice, if it would be a habit of big alliance to publish their long-term objectives on COAD. Maybe their goals for the next 3, 6 and 12 months.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:07:00 - [9] Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. You should read kugs website, it shows you the truth and the error of your ways. Quite ironic, it is. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
William DeMeo Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:19:00 - [10] Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. When you guys were in Delve it was stated by me that you would win if you took all of BoB's space. You didn't, so if you consider the war to be over it was a draw. Kind of like Vietnam. Yarr
Gontard Minmatar E-Truth	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:30:00 - [11] james is that you?
VinkNut Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:36:00 - [12] There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that.
Nero Winger Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:47:00 - [13] Clear Flaimbait topic. Good written but still flaimbait. Everybody defines success on their own way. or power or influence and all that. To argue about who has acchieved what/who won/who lost is only creating flames.
Siminuria Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Vanessa Vernandez In RL I work as a management consultant and therefore have a natural interest in this topic. Does anyone want to build him a B ark? Oh, and ofc the obvious reasons for not stating your alliances goals are: 1) If everyone knows what you are going to do you can't backstab people. b) If you don't state your aims, you can't fail and any successes you may have are bonus ammunition to fire up your members and bash your adversaries with on CAOD.
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:55:00 - [15] Originally by: VinkNut There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that. thats your advantage over rall other alliances tho. you sit in a region which is partially npc colonized thus making invasions impossible and you have pretty good agents there aswell. ccp created a small pocket of the eve univers combining the most valuable rescources in one spot and you mamanged to get there before anyone knew this. that is an achivement ofc. but this is nothing to be too proud about. the russians for example are making enuff money out of all their conquered dyspo and prom moons to pay their subscriptions via isk for the next years... Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
geno effort GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:17:00 - [16] Originally by: VinkNut There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that. With all the t2 bpo's you were spawned with it's hard not to.
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. You should read kugs website, it shows you the truth and the error of your ways. Quite ironic, it is. Yeah I probably made it too complicated still. I'll try again. BoB fight for much space. BoB talk lots about be awesome. Goons take space away. BoB make alternate universe to save honor.
Moran Trayga State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:37:00 - [18] Originally by: OldPueblo Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 07/05/2008 20:20:04 The bottom line that every loves to ignore since "lol propaganda" is that Goons beat BoB based on BoB's own designated "indicators for success." We took away all the space they used to claim how badass they were (from them AND their pets), and got tons of "good fights" the entire time which is what Bob says is the most important thing. It's really that simple, everything else is just bitter butt-hurt. If BoB wants to claim victory somehow after all of this, then they pretty much need to change history, go back and edit all of their posts from the last several years, whatever. We still gotcha space. You should read kugs website, it shows you the truth and the error of your ways. Quite ironic, it is. Yeah I probably made it too complicated still. I'll try again. BoB fight for much space. BoB talk lots about be awesome. Goons take space away. BoB make alternate universe to save honor. You missed the bit about kugutswhatshisname releasing/hacking/whatever bob's forums and revealing their true plans. As in it wasn't just to take all of 0.0 but for t3h f1ghtzz. - MORAN TRAYGA -
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Moran Trayga You missed the bit about kugutswhatshisname releasing/hacking/whatever bob's forums and revealing their true plans. As in it wasn't just to take all of 0.0 but for t3h f1ghtzz. Everyone got fightz, except BoB got fightz and lost all their space and had members ragequit. I reiterate, by BoB's own overly vocalized standards they got squashed. And since you can't actually force an alliance to disband its doors due to no CCP game mechanic, that's pretty much it. Case closed. Now if they want to change their structure and plans and morph into something new AFTERWARDS in some kind "we always meant this BBQ rebirth", then that's a whole different thing altogether.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Gontard james is that you? James had a different, and in my opinion, superior writing style. Can I get a TL DR version of this? I'm at work and don't feel like wrestling a text wall.
NOL Waiter Dining in NOL Enterprises.	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:04:00 - [21] Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:05:00 - [22] Originally by: NOL Waiter Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator. Excellent analogy good sir.
OldPueblo DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:05:00 - [23] Originally by: NOL Waiter Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator. ALTS HAVE NO HONOR TBQH. And what's so embarrassing about the most natural thing you can share with another person?
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:08:00 - [24] Originally by: OldPueblo Originally by: NOL Waiter Oldpueblo if you want to keep posting on caod at least roll an alt, you are getting embarassing like a loud fart in an elevator. ALTS HAVE NO HONOR TBQH. And what's so embarrassing about the most natural thing you can share with another person? The smell?
Moran Trayga State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:10:00 - [25] Originally by: OldPueblo lost all their space Methinks you are just a little misinformed. - MORAN TRAYGA -
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Moran Trayga Originally by: OldPueblo lost all their space Methinks you are just a little misinformed. Methinks you should post with your main.
Quesa Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:12:00 - [27] The true winner of the battle won't come from some well though out and presented post, nor will the ever pressing and digressing opinions of the CAOD posters. It will come long after, when the history of the battle and it's followings that will decide. It's way to hard to dive right into an analysis of a universal conflict when the smoke is still clearing.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:18:00 - [28] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 07/05/2008 23:18:49 Originally by: Quesa The true winner of the battle won't come from some well though out and presented post, nor will the ever pressing and digressing opinions of the CAOD posters. It will come long after, when the history of the battle and it's followings that will decide. It's way to hard to dive right into an analysis of a universal conflict when the smoke is still clearing. sure - this post doesn't try to answer, who is "the true winner of the battle" of the southern war. I am sure, that I stated out in detail, that depending on your perspective it could be both - and that I haven't argued in favour of any the involved parties. I want to point out, that there are many different perspectives and that in the end the depth, complexity and also the liberties of this game, only let you the opinion to judge alliance depending on what they claim to achieve.
fugazii Deep Space Productions	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Reto Originally by: VinkNut There is to many factors to judge this properly, you mention earning potentional through space. I bet you as an alliance BOB earns more money out of delve then goonswarm does out of all the regions under there control. I'll let you make sense of that. thats your advantage over rall other alliances tho. you sit in a region which is partially npc colonized thus making invasions impossible and you have pretty good agents there aswell. ccp created a small pocket of the eve univers combining the most valuable rescources in one spot and you mamanged to get there before anyone knew this. that is an achivement ofc. but this is nothing to be too proud about. the russians for example are making enuff money out of all their conquered dyspo and prom moons to pay their subscriptions via isk for the next years... Blood Raiders were kicked out of empire by the Amarr Empire into 0.0 in an event more than a year after BoB conquered the space from FA. If anything, a small pocket of npc stations works against them in an invasion. Since it provides a 100% immune to attack base for their attackers to stage out of. "There is nothing they can do to counter 5000 f*****g Goons logged in and ready to go." - darius JOHNSON
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:23:00 - [30] INCOMING ALT POSTS! Brace yourself!
Quesa Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Vanessa Vernandez sure - this post doesn't try to answer, who is "the true winner of the battle" of the southern war. I am sure, that I stated out in detail, that depending on your perspective it could be both - and that I haven't argued in favour of any the involved parties. I want to point out, that there are many different perspectives and that in the end the depth, complexity and also the liberties of this game, only let you the opinion to judge alliance depending on what they claim to achieve. I do agree with you. I also think that each side touts themselves as the winners. For the next coupld of months I'm sure it will be debated over and over. Goons will claim they won because they made BoB suffer. BoB will claim a victory because they stopped the SC/NC from completing their objective. When it's all said and done, there were many goals that both sides had that were either forgotten or flat out denied by the opposing faction. I still think of the 'great war' as a mere conflict within the war that will still be raging. BoB is in a firestorm of retribution. Who knows how far that will go. Will there be another call to wall off BoB's now 'unfetered' offensive, who knows?
Jaini Hotori GTE Corp	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:29:00 - [32] ohh look an impartial look at 0.0 politics my a 1 year old player that deals with.... bob and goons. go talk about someone new. If you want to study games and management, how about these for starters: CVA's free access NRDS ISS and it's pitfalls and destruction Mercenary coalititon and the independance of mercenary parties Tri / UK / INSRG on the joy of state sponsored terrorism BRUCE and the cult of personality IAC and how-drunk-can-you-fly-a-ship AAA 's cult of terror Syndicate's weekly cluster***** Norhtern naptrain's inability to be anything but a naptrain. I could go on but i'm drunk. Honestly. bob/goons is so old even bob/goons have stopped fighting bobvgoons and started looking for other games. there is more to eve than mega-alliance blobs.
Quesa Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Jaini Hotori Honestly. bob/goons is so old even bob/goons have stopped fighting bobvgoons and started looking for other games. there is more to eve than mega-alliance blobs. If you are trying to imply that BoB vs. Goons is over, you'd be sadly mistaken. Ofc, thats just a gut feeling...however strong it is.
Tenebrys Havoc Violence and Chaos R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:43:00 - [34] Edited by: Tenebrys on 07/05/2008 23:43:46 This is an interesting look at things. As a business student, I've often asked myself this question as well: "What goals are these people after?" The one problem I find with this particular view of "goals" is that since EVE Online is of course a game, the goals of most alliances seem to be shorter-term and less realistic than the goals of actual, real-life business firms. Furthermore, corporations and alliances in EVE are separated from corporations in real life by a rather nasty difference: In real life, the workers are hired hands who are paid to do a job; in EVE, the members are recruited individuals who are taxed for the privilege of being in the corporation. The result of this is that an EVE corp's management's non-industrial (start building capships in 12 months, find a nice moon and mine it to death to make more money, etc) goals are more nebulous and dedicated less to the corporation's well-being as a whole than to keeping all the members under the same umbrella. It remains a disputed topic what the actual, long-term goals of Band of Brothers are. Some individuals on a website that Dianabolic mentioned above claim that Band of Brothers originally intended to draw as much of a siege as possible to the Delve region and have lots of fun and lots of good fights repelling it; much of the accepted "CAOD goon" opinion, however, is that Band of Brothers originally intended (based on a New York Times article that may or may not be part of the "set-up" for the previously-mentioned belief as to BoB's goals) to take over all of EVE. This belief was the subject of a series of articles posted on the forums last year by one "James 315," an individual who expressed serious concern that one alliance conquering the entire galaxy would result in eventual death and stagnation of a unique, wonderful MMORPG and called for the destruction of Band of Brothers in order to keep this from happening. Whatever the case, BoB appears to have failed the "conquer EVE" goal but succeeded in the "get sieged and get some good fights" goal, if it was a relatively short siege for the amount of setup time (over a year of warring outside of Delve) it took. As for Goonswarm, the alliance does appear to have some goal, one has been stated in last year's "State of the Goonion" address written by The Mittani and seems to be accepted by most individuals that Goonswarm has come into contact with. This goal is, and I quote, "push some**gots' in." In any case, it would appear that they have achieved this goal, though this is disputable if we try to work out an exact definition for what all this goal entails. In terms of the war, Goonswarm's goal is somewhat disputable as well. Some in the Swarm have called for complete and utter annihilation of the Band of Brothers alliance, though something of an attrition process -- I recall from post leaked to CAOD (as one of the oft-quoted "three people left who still don't have access to GoonFleet's forums") that part of the intention in invading Delve was to make the game completely unplayable for BoB; this motive fits with the "attrition theory" of the attack on Band of Brothers. Others on CAOD claim that Goonswarm has won the war due to, as they claim, reducing BoB to a "footnote;" however, it is disputable as to whether this goal was the actual, long-term objective of Goonswarm management. With this, I'll leave a summary as to at least -some- of the goals of Band of Brothers and Goonswarm. Did Band of Brothers get some "good fights?" From the sound of things, yes. Did Band of Brothers take over EVE? No. Was this their intention? Maybe. Did Band of Brothers get Delve sieged? No. Was this their intention? Maybe. Did Goonswarm "push somegots' ** in?" Probably. Did Goonswarm make a footnote out of BoB? Disputable. Did Goonswarm take space from BoB? Yes. Did Goonswarm destroy BoB? No. Thanks for reading. I hope that CAOD benefits from this, though I doubt it will.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:58:00 - [35] thanks for that comprehensive reply. I agree with you, that it's not easy to define these goals and that there is a kind of difference to RL companies in that respect. maybe I should develop a questionnaire for alliance, to get their different kind of goals - which are not top secrect - in a comparable format?
Doctor Oda Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:03:00 - [36] you post seems to be duging how sucsefull an alliance is by space it holds? So you saying burn eden sucks?? Who ever you main is should quit eve tbh, Burn Eden dont hold space but there very, very good at what they do. The only mark of sucess in an alliance is if all player love playing the game and dedicating all spare time to continue enjoying the game, space is only a means to an end for some alliance.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:23:00 - [37] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 08/05/2008 12:24:21 Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 08/05/2008 12:23:48 Originally by: Doctor Oda you post seems to be duging how sucsefull an alliance is by space it holds? So you saying burn eden sucks?? Who ever you main is should quit eve tbh, Burn Eden dont hold space but there very, very good at what they do. The only mark of sucess in an alliance is if all player love playing the game and dedicating all spare time to continue enjoying the game, space is only a means to an end for some alliance. if you have read my post thoroughly you sure have noticed, that I have mentioned, that there are many indicators for measuring success and that "holding space" could be one of them. And - "if all player love playing the game" is also an legitimate and reasonable indicator for the health of an alliance. And btw: when do people have fun playing a game together? If they reach together the same goals they have in the game and if they agree with the longterm ojbectives their alliance has.
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:28:00 - [38] The true winners in this are Bruce and Smash. There was a time when you could go for a week between hearing anything interesting happening with them.. longer usually. But now look at all the attention they are getting.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Papa Ina The true winners in this are Bruce and Smash. There was a time when you could go for a week between hearing anything interesting happening with them.. longer usually. But now look at all the attention they are getting. oh good point, thanks for that input. haven't thought of this indicator yet: the attention an alliance is getting. the public reputation etc.
Nguyen VanPhuoc Minmatar The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Angelonico INCOMING ALT POSTS! Brace yourself! I. AM. HERE. o/ tl;dr ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:11:00 - [41] You didn't actually say anything about how either entity was run. We can read the map same as you so you don't need to tell us that goons have lots of space and that BoB also have lots of space, but less than they did. I really want to know how much freedom members get to do what they like, what sort of work ethics the corps and alliance have. Do individual corps have different policies and approaches or is there some grand, unified alliance plan? How much say do the "grunts" get or do they even have something you might term grunts? How do they disseminate information and communicate between organisational layers? How flat is their organisational heirarchy, is that hierarchy flexible and loose or rigid? Also why did you choose goons and BoB? That is as important a question as any? Why not at random or using some fair method. If you chose these two because they are so high profile, how do you think that might skew or affect the results? Can you extrapolate results to other corps/alliances?
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:28:00 - [42] Originally by: Spoon Thumb You didn't actually say anything about how either entity was run. We can read the map same as you so you don't need to tell us that goons have lots of space and that BoB also have lots of space, but less than they did. I really want to know how much freedom members get to do what they like, what sort of work ethics the corps and alliance have. Do individual corps have different policies and approaches or is there some grand, unified alliance plan? How much say do the "grunts" get or do they even have something you might term grunts? How do they disseminate information and communicate between organisational layers? How flat is their organisational heirarchy, is that hierarchy flexible and loose or rigid? Also why did you choose goons and BoB? That is as important a question as any? Why not at random or using some fair method. If you chose these two because they are so high profile, how do you think that might skew or affect the results? Can you extrapolate results to other corps/alliances? Thanks for all that questions. I have been looking for answers to all those questions in the last 12 months. I will write for sure something about the different approaches to lead and organize an alliance in the near future. Not in a way that I give important intel about an alliance, but in a way to point out the advantages and disadvantages of different approaches. btw: I am not in BoB and Goonswarm only, but also picked a few other major alliances and also corps and alliances, which are much smaller and also for example empire based. So I wanted to get a lot of different perspectives and therefore tried to be in as much different corps/alliances as possible. BoB vs. Goons is just an example for this article. I also have been in a few dozen corps, which were founded from scratch and a lot of them didn't make it for very long and failed - but a few of them could achieve and manage significant growth. I am also working on something like an corporation / alliance lifecycle chart. Which hopefully can show, which are the major milestones in the development of an corporation are, and which management issues, decide in this different stages, if the corporation can continue its growth. So there will be a lot more infos soon. Maybe also published outside of CAOD ;)
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:32:00 - [43] Maybe you want to consider not naming your alliances. Sure people can second guess but it is a bit rude and a breach of trust to stick an alt in some alliance purely for this purpose
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Spoon Thumb Maybe you want to consider not naming your alliances. Sure people can second guess but it is a bit rude and a breach of trust to stick an alt in some alliance purely for this purpose sure - I will not name them, except maybe the big ones. btw: I am actively playing the game in one of the smaller alliances and I am a more or less "medium-active" member in all the others - not only to play different aspects of the game, but you also need to do stuff with those people, to really see how they are working. just joining with a character and reading their forums doesn't tell you a lot about an alliance.
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.08 14:23:00 - [45] Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 08/05/2008 14:25:04 Edit: Building on what Tenebrys and Vanessa Vernandez already said This really comes down to why people play games. Ultimately it is to have fun, but that is pretty vague. The "fun" stems in this case from the desire to learn: Eve is a simulation, a contrived scenario in this case in a virtual world, with set rules and boundaries. When you add some end-game or victory conditions, it then becomes a sport, and in the case of 0.0 and also of trading and market pvp, you directly compete against other human players in achieving those victory conditions or goals. However, for many people, the fun through learning comes through social interaction. Many people appreciate the anonymity they gain through their avatar in the virtual world, being as it is not necessarily identifiable. Thus they can create themselves a character that is safe to use, removed from the real world. You can be both your own RL character and learn things about yourself by interacting with others, or be some other made up character, with different mindset, views and opinions and learn about others by placing yourself at their POV. You may know these people respectively as "pvpers" and "carebears" However that division is misleading. As a sport, Eve is often skewed towards teamwork, and similarly, those seeking social interaction may find they need a common activity to simulate social situations in the real world. Thus you need to be successful in both realms to some degree to get the maximum rewards from the game, to learn the most about yourself and others There is however an exception. Some people find their real life is stressful and they want to come into an environment at the end of the day where there is little or no mental or physical effort involved. Much as you do when you're sleeping, this downtime for mind and body (aka relaxation) is a neutral place where you can gather your thoughts and draw conclusions and firm lessons from what has happened during the day In eve, these are the solo mission runners and miners who just do their own thing and don't want to necessarily interact with others but just have a neutral place they can do something mechanical and low intensity. This is why people have so much hate when this is interrupted, when they are forced to interact against their will. People who gank solo mission runners are equivalent to door to door salesmen turning up at 11pm on a Monday --- CCP have given us a sandbox game, and for some the goal is to push the boundaries of what can be done in that. For others there are some less than subtle game mechanics that make some goals or end games rather obvious (e.g. building an Empire in 0.0, or becoming a rich industrialist on the markets). Bearing all that in mind, and returning to the op, the success of an alliance is in how much each of the individual members and organisation as a whole learns from their time online in the context of their stated goals. How they apply those lessons to the real world is another thing

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