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Indicators for Success

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Quesa Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Vanessa Vernandez sure - this post doesn't try to answer, who is "the true winner of the battle" of the southern war. I am sure, that I stated out in detail, that depending on your perspective it could be both - and that I haven't argued in favour of any the involved parties. I want to point out, that there are many different perspectives and that in the end the depth, complexity and also the liberties of this game, only let you the opinion to judge alliance depending on what they claim to achieve. I do agree with you. I also think that each side touts themselves as the winners. For the next coupld of months I'm sure it will be debated over and over. Goons will claim they won because they made BoB suffer. BoB will claim a victory because they stopped the SC/NC from completing their objective. When it's all said and done, there were many goals that both sides had that were either forgotten or flat out denied by the opposing faction. I still think of the 'great war' as a mere conflict within the war that will still be raging. BoB is in a firestorm of retribution. Who knows how far that will go. Will there be another call to wall off BoB's now 'unfetered' offensive, who knows?
Jaini Hotori GTE Corp	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:29:00 - [32] ohh look an impartial look at 0.0 politics my a 1 year old player that deals with.... bob and goons. go talk about someone new. If you want to study games and management, how about these for starters: CVA's free access NRDS ISS and it's pitfalls and destruction Mercenary coalititon and the independance of mercenary parties Tri / UK / INSRG on the joy of state sponsored terrorism BRUCE and the cult of personality IAC and how-drunk-can-you-fly-a-ship AAA 's cult of terror Syndicate's weekly cluster***** Norhtern naptrain's inability to be anything but a naptrain. I could go on but i'm drunk. Honestly. bob/goons is so old even bob/goons have stopped fighting bobvgoons and started looking for other games. there is more to eve than mega-alliance blobs.
Quesa Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Jaini Hotori Honestly. bob/goons is so old even bob/goons have stopped fighting bobvgoons and started looking for other games. there is more to eve than mega-alliance blobs. If you are trying to imply that BoB vs. Goons is over, you'd be sadly mistaken. Ofc, thats just a gut feeling...however strong it is.
Tenebrys Havoc Violence and Chaos R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.07 23:43:00 - [34] Edited by: Tenebrys on 07/05/2008 23:43:46 This is an interesting look at things. As a business student, I've often asked myself this question as well: "What goals are these people after?" The one problem I find with this particular view of "goals" is that since EVE Online is of course a game, the goals of most alliances seem to be shorter-term and less realistic than the goals of actual, real-life business firms. Furthermore, corporations and alliances in EVE are separated from corporations in real life by a rather nasty difference: In real life, the workers are hired hands who are paid to do a job; in EVE, the members are recruited individuals who are taxed for the privilege of being in the corporation. The result of this is that an EVE corp's management's non-industrial (start building capships in 12 months, find a nice moon and mine it to death to make more money, etc) goals are more nebulous and dedicated less to the corporation's well-being as a whole than to keeping all the members under the same umbrella. It remains a disputed topic what the actual, long-term goals of Band of Brothers are. Some individuals on a website that Dianabolic mentioned above claim that Band of Brothers originally intended to draw as much of a siege as possible to the Delve region and have lots of fun and lots of good fights repelling it; much of the accepted "CAOD goon" opinion, however, is that Band of Brothers originally intended (based on a New York Times article that may or may not be part of the "set-up" for the previously-mentioned belief as to BoB's goals) to take over all of EVE. This belief was the subject of a series of articles posted on the forums last year by one "James 315," an individual who expressed serious concern that one alliance conquering the entire galaxy would result in eventual death and stagnation of a unique, wonderful MMORPG and called for the destruction of Band of Brothers in order to keep this from happening. Whatever the case, BoB appears to have failed the "conquer EVE" goal but succeeded in the "get sieged and get some good fights" goal, if it was a relatively short siege for the amount of setup time (over a year of warring outside of Delve) it took. As for Goonswarm, the alliance does appear to have some goal, one has been stated in last year's "State of the Goonion" address written by The Mittani and seems to be accepted by most individuals that Goonswarm has come into contact with. This goal is, and I quote, "push some**gots' in." In any case, it would appear that they have achieved this goal, though this is disputable if we try to work out an exact definition for what all this goal entails. In terms of the war, Goonswarm's goal is somewhat disputable as well. Some in the Swarm have called for complete and utter annihilation of the Band of Brothers alliance, though something of an attrition process -- I recall from post leaked to CAOD (as one of the oft-quoted "three people left who still don't have access to GoonFleet's forums") that part of the intention in invading Delve was to make the game completely unplayable for BoB; this motive fits with the "attrition theory" of the attack on Band of Brothers. Others on CAOD claim that Goonswarm has won the war due to, as they claim, reducing BoB to a "footnote;" however, it is disputable as to whether this goal was the actual, long-term objective of Goonswarm management. With this, I'll leave a summary as to at least -some- of the goals of Band of Brothers and Goonswarm. Did Band of Brothers get some "good fights?" From the sound of things, yes. Did Band of Brothers take over EVE? No. Was this their intention? Maybe. Did Band of Brothers get Delve sieged? No. Was this their intention? Maybe. Did Goonswarm "push somegots' ** in?" Probably. Did Goonswarm make a footnote out of BoB? Disputable. Did Goonswarm take space from BoB? Yes. Did Goonswarm destroy BoB? No. Thanks for reading. I hope that CAOD benefits from this, though I doubt it will.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:58:00 - [35] thanks for that comprehensive reply. I agree with you, that it's not easy to define these goals and that there is a kind of difference to RL companies in that respect. maybe I should develop a questionnaire for alliance, to get their different kind of goals - which are not top secrect - in a comparable format?
Doctor Oda Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:03:00 - [36] you post seems to be duging how sucsefull an alliance is by space it holds? So you saying burn eden sucks?? Who ever you main is should quit eve tbh, Burn Eden dont hold space but there very, very good at what they do. The only mark of sucess in an alliance is if all player love playing the game and dedicating all spare time to continue enjoying the game, space is only a means to an end for some alliance.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:23:00 - [37] Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 08/05/2008 12:24:21 Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 08/05/2008 12:23:48 Originally by: Doctor Oda you post seems to be duging how sucsefull an alliance is by space it holds? So you saying burn eden sucks?? Who ever you main is should quit eve tbh, Burn Eden dont hold space but there very, very good at what they do. The only mark of sucess in an alliance is if all player love playing the game and dedicating all spare time to continue enjoying the game, space is only a means to an end for some alliance. if you have read my post thoroughly you sure have noticed, that I have mentioned, that there are many indicators for measuring success and that "holding space" could be one of them. And - "if all player love playing the game" is also an legitimate and reasonable indicator for the health of an alliance. And btw: when do people have fun playing a game together? If they reach together the same goals they have in the game and if they agree with the longterm ojbectives their alliance has.
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:28:00 - [38] The true winners in this are Bruce and Smash. There was a time when you could go for a week between hearing anything interesting happening with them.. longer usually. But now look at all the attention they are getting.
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Papa Ina The true winners in this are Bruce and Smash. There was a time when you could go for a week between hearing anything interesting happening with them.. longer usually. But now look at all the attention they are getting. oh good point, thanks for that input. haven't thought of this indicator yet: the attention an alliance is getting. the public reputation etc.
Nguyen VanPhuoc Minmatar The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Angelonico INCOMING ALT POSTS! Brace yourself! I. AM. HERE. o/ tl;dr ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:11:00 - [41] You didn't actually say anything about how either entity was run. We can read the map same as you so you don't need to tell us that goons have lots of space and that BoB also have lots of space, but less than they did. I really want to know how much freedom members get to do what they like, what sort of work ethics the corps and alliance have. Do individual corps have different policies and approaches or is there some grand, unified alliance plan? How much say do the "grunts" get or do they even have something you might term grunts? How do they disseminate information and communicate between organisational layers? How flat is their organisational heirarchy, is that hierarchy flexible and loose or rigid? Also why did you choose goons and BoB? That is as important a question as any? Why not at random or using some fair method. If you chose these two because they are so high profile, how do you think that might skew or affect the results? Can you extrapolate results to other corps/alliances?
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:28:00 - [42] Originally by: Spoon Thumb You didn't actually say anything about how either entity was run. We can read the map same as you so you don't need to tell us that goons have lots of space and that BoB also have lots of space, but less than they did. I really want to know how much freedom members get to do what they like, what sort of work ethics the corps and alliance have. Do individual corps have different policies and approaches or is there some grand, unified alliance plan? How much say do the "grunts" get or do they even have something you might term grunts? How do they disseminate information and communicate between organisational layers? How flat is their organisational heirarchy, is that hierarchy flexible and loose or rigid? Also why did you choose goons and BoB? That is as important a question as any? Why not at random or using some fair method. If you chose these two because they are so high profile, how do you think that might skew or affect the results? Can you extrapolate results to other corps/alliances? Thanks for all that questions. I have been looking for answers to all those questions in the last 12 months. I will write for sure something about the different approaches to lead and organize an alliance in the near future. Not in a way that I give important intel about an alliance, but in a way to point out the advantages and disadvantages of different approaches. btw: I am not in BoB and Goonswarm only, but also picked a few other major alliances and also corps and alliances, which are much smaller and also for example empire based. So I wanted to get a lot of different perspectives and therefore tried to be in as much different corps/alliances as possible. BoB vs. Goons is just an example for this article. I also have been in a few dozen corps, which were founded from scratch and a lot of them didn't make it for very long and failed - but a few of them could achieve and manage significant growth. I am also working on something like an corporation / alliance lifecycle chart. Which hopefully can show, which are the major milestones in the development of an corporation are, and which management issues, decide in this different stages, if the corporation can continue its growth. So there will be a lot more infos soon. Maybe also published outside of CAOD ;)
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:32:00 - [43] Maybe you want to consider not naming your alliances. Sure people can second guess but it is a bit rude and a breach of trust to stick an alt in some alliance purely for this purpose
Vanessa Vernandez Interstellar Management Acadamy	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Spoon Thumb Maybe you want to consider not naming your alliances. Sure people can second guess but it is a bit rude and a breach of trust to stick an alt in some alliance purely for this purpose sure - I will not name them, except maybe the big ones. btw: I am actively playing the game in one of the smaller alliances and I am a more or less "medium-active" member in all the others - not only to play different aspects of the game, but you also need to do stuff with those people, to really see how they are working. just joining with a character and reading their forums doesn't tell you a lot about an alliance.
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.08 14:23:00 - [45] Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 08/05/2008 14:25:04 Edit: Building on what Tenebrys and Vanessa Vernandez already said This really comes down to why people play games. Ultimately it is to have fun, but that is pretty vague. The "fun" stems in this case from the desire to learn: Eve is a simulation, a contrived scenario in this case in a virtual world, with set rules and boundaries. When you add some end-game or victory conditions, it then becomes a sport, and in the case of 0.0 and also of trading and market pvp, you directly compete against other human players in achieving those victory conditions or goals. However, for many people, the fun through learning comes through social interaction. Many people appreciate the anonymity they gain through their avatar in the virtual world, being as it is not necessarily identifiable. Thus they can create themselves a character that is safe to use, removed from the real world. You can be both your own RL character and learn things about yourself by interacting with others, or be some other made up character, with different mindset, views and opinions and learn about others by placing yourself at their POV. You may know these people respectively as "pvpers" and "carebears" However that division is misleading. As a sport, Eve is often skewed towards teamwork, and similarly, those seeking social interaction may find they need a common activity to simulate social situations in the real world. Thus you need to be successful in both realms to some degree to get the maximum rewards from the game, to learn the most about yourself and others There is however an exception. Some people find their real life is stressful and they want to come into an environment at the end of the day where there is little or no mental or physical effort involved. Much as you do when you're sleeping, this downtime for mind and body (aka relaxation) is a neutral place where you can gather your thoughts and draw conclusions and firm lessons from what has happened during the day In eve, these are the solo mission runners and miners who just do their own thing and don't want to necessarily interact with others but just have a neutral place they can do something mechanical and low intensity. This is why people have so much hate when this is interrupted, when they are forced to interact against their will. People who gank solo mission runners are equivalent to door to door salesmen turning up at 11pm on a Monday --- CCP have given us a sandbox game, and for some the goal is to push the boundaries of what can be done in that. For others there are some less than subtle game mechanics that make some goals or end games rather obvious (e.g. building an Empire in 0.0, or becoming a rich industrialist on the markets). Bearing all that in mind, and returning to the op, the success of an alliance is in how much each of the individual members and organisation as a whole learns from their time online in the context of their stated goals. How they apply those lessons to the real world is another thing

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