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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2008.05.08 13:27:00 -
[1]
Firstly
Im under the general impression that all Minmatar & Caldari pilots are satisfied with there respective recon ships.
I have never heard any corp mates or gang mates moan about there effectivness.
Lets take a look at the Pilgrim (first one the two force recons with problems)
Pilgrim
All Combat recons get a damage bonus, and the force recons get a cyno bonus... apart from this ship..
Proposed change.
Pilgrim +10% damage bonus
Exchanged for 40% nos & neut range bonus
What will this do?, well it will mean the pilgrim can effectivly tackle like the arazu & the huggin without being in major jeporady.
But with such low dps & drone HP it will not be able to solo battleships (like it could pre-nos-nerf), which as fun as it is... isnt particually balance.
No rapiers/falcons or arazus can break any reasonable tank.
This ship would suddenly become a great tackler, could work on gates in a gang, can pin down hostiles ships with ease like all the others can (except falcon but thats already fantastic), it could also solo decently, while not being overpowerd
Arazu & Lachesis
Both suffer the same problem... simply that remote sensor damps got hit "farr" to hard with the nerf, they either need a +10% bonus per level, or even a 15% bonus (falcon gets 20% i may add)
These ships roles have even more recently been taken with the introduction of Heavy Interdictor & the scriped 30km distruptor.., why have a point @ 40km when you can have 2 infinte points @ 30?...., not to mention the recent scram range buff of the low dps ceptors.
I beleive these 2 changed would not be overpowered, but would make these ships far more usefull.
Thoughs?
Ant-
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Sejet
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Posted - 2008.05.08 13:37:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Sejet on 08/05/2008 13:37:03
I agree whit you on how you can make the Pilgrim work better, make it's EWAR have the same range as the Rapier and Azure, make it a part of the team.
for the Azure.
i honestly don't know what to make if that ship. interdictors make one of its bonuses less then hot outside black ops teams, and the changes to dampeners hit the one remaining bonus hard. world be nice to see a change that makes this ship a bit better in black ops and a lot better in fleets.
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 13:49:00 -
[3]
You have no clue.
Pilgrim:
Your proposed change takes away the uniqueness of this ship, but it has some serious problems as it is. Giving it the range of the Curse is not a good tradeoff, as we'll see nano-Pilgrims alot. 5 Low-Slots will make this ship pretty damn fast.
Better solution to make the Pilgrim working are stated in this over 30 Page long thread.
Arazu:
The Arazu works like a charm, if you're not lame enough to fly the ship without skills for the damps.
I can damp every battleship below 30km, if it has only 1 Sensor Booster fitted and tackle it with ease from up to 48km (Standard T2-fitting).
Damage-output is not that bad, if you don't fit like a chicken with Overdrives and nanofibers.
Slap in 3x 250mm II and 3x MagStab II with 4x Valkyre II and you'll get astonishing 260 DPS with AntiMatter loaded (yes you can hit with AM @ 30km).
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Riho
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.05.08 13:57:00 -
[4]
um doesnt the pilgrim allready have the damage bonus ?? :P
----------------------------------
Yes... this is my main.
Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2008.05.08 13:57:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Grytok
You have no clue.
Pilgrim:
Your proposed change takes away the uniqueness of this ship, but it has some serious problems as it is. Giving it the range of the Curse is not a good tradeoff, as we'll see nano-Pilgrims alot. 5 Low-Slots will make this ship pretty damn fast.
Better solution to make the Pilgrim working are stated in this over 30 Page long thread.
Arazu:
The Arazu works like a charm, if you're not lame enough to fly the ship without skills for the damps.
I can damp every battleship below 30km, if it has only 1 Sensor Booster fitted and tackle it with ease from up to 48km (Standard T2-fitting).
Damage-output is not that bad, if you don't fit like a chicken with Overdrives and nanofibers.
Slap in 3x 250mm II and 3x MagStab II with 4x Valkyre II and you'll get astonishing 260 DPS with AntiMatter loaded (yes you can hit with AM @ 30km).
Actually your the one without a clue.
Your saying that a nanopilgrim with no damange bonus which cant stop ships from docking/getting back to the gate (due to range) is any more overpowered than the nano passive tanked huggin/rapier we see everyday.
Please remember that a nanopilgrims drones would be very vunerable also due to range and inability to scoop.
Maybe if you flew these ships you would relise. how much your logic failed.
And your arazu setup.
How fast does it go?
I mean with guns, damage mods, sensor booster, if you have propulsion mods, damps, point.. cap booster?.. hows your cap?
Cuz you aint gonna be fast, any ship would mwd right upto you while laughting at your terrible dps then tear you a new one.
Stop trying to deny ships that badly need a buff due to either
A = Your a caldari/minmatar fanboi who would not like other ships boosted.
B = A troll
C = Clueless
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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2008.05.08 13:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Riho
um doesnt the pilgrim allready have the damage bonus ?? :P
Yes it does,
Which is why im suggesting that the damage bonus is removed and replace with a nos range bonus (just like every single other force recon)
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Anope
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Anope on 08/05/2008 14:09:44
Originally by: Antarus Lars
Originally by: Grytok
You have no clue.
Pilgrim:
Your proposed change takes away the uniqueness of this ship, but it has some serious problems as it is. Giving it the range of the Curse is not a good tradeoff, as we'll see nano-Pilgrims alot. 5 Low-Slots will make this ship pretty damn fast.
Better solution to make the Pilgrim working are stated in this over 30 Page long thread.
Arazu:
The Arazu works like a charm, if you're not lame enough to fly the ship without skills for the damps.
I can damp every battleship below 30km, if it has only 1 Sensor Booster fitted and tackle it with ease from up to 48km (Standard T2-fitting).
Damage-output is not that bad, if you don't fit like a chicken with Overdrives and nanofibers.
Slap in 3x 250mm II and 3x MagStab II with 4x Valkyre II and you'll get astonishing 260 DPS with AntiMatter loaded (yes you can hit with AM @ 30km).
Actually your the one without a clue.
And your arazu setup.
How fast does it go?
I mean with guns, damage mods, sensor booster, if you have propulsion mods, damps, point.. cap booster?.. hows your cap?
Cuz you aint gonna be fast, any ship would mwd right upto you while laughting at your terrible dps then tear you a new one.
Stop trying to deny ships that badly need a buff due to either
jesus I was just about to say this EXACT thing almost lol, you beat me to it
I'm an arazu pilot also... 3x Magstab?? HAHA how long does your cap hold up huh? Im curios if you even have an AB
MWD away from you, and their free
MWD towards you, and your screwed
as it stands arazu needs help badly
damp nerfed killed it.
recent propulsion jamming buffs for other ships has made it obsolete.
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:15:00 -
[8]
Fly them Force Recons in a gang maybe?
Arazu + Rapier can kill any ratter outthere.
A Pilgrim with your proposed change will make the Curse obsolete, which is not the way to go tbfh.
And cap on the Arazu is not such a big problem like you want to tell. Train up your freakin Cap-Skills and slap a PDU II in the last LowSlot.
Flying in a gang you don't need this much speed on an Arazu either.
You seem to forget, that Recon Ships are support-ships and no soloPWNmobiles.
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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Grytok
Edited by: Grytok on 08/05/2008 14:16:27
Fly them Force Recons in a gang maybe?
Arazu + Rapier can kill any ratter outthere.
A Pilgrim with your proposed change will make the Curse obsolete, which is not the way to go tbfh.
And cap on the Arazu is not such a big problem like you want to tell. Train up your freakin Cap-Skills and slap a PDU II in the last LowSlot.
Flying in a gang you don't need this much speed on an Arazu either.
You seem to forget, that Recon Ships are support-ships and no soloPWNmobiles.
EDIT: I fly Gallente/Amarr Recons LvL 5 on this char and MinMatar/Amarr Recons LvL 5 on my second char... 90% of my time... in Gangs and not solo.
Make the curse obsolete...
You mean like the fact only idiots ever fly lachesis/huggins/rooks already? except for very specific situations... combat recons are already obsolete.
Arazu & Pilgim can kill any ratter?, O RLY?, most ratters can permatank quite decent amount of DPS.
Your so called group coudnt even kill a drake.
And saying train up cap skills, i have max cap skills and with all mods & guns the arazu isnt very cap stable.
And if your in gangs..., well firstly why would i take your arazu when i could take a HIC?, and why would i take you from your terrible EW when i could take a falcon?
If you really have been flying these ships with all l5 skills and every race, then im amazed your so blind to there flaws...., or maybe your just scraping by with the help of the gang (leech anybody)
And 3 damage mods & a PDU on your arazu (that will be slow, so your effective combat range will be erm... 50km..., in any gang fights a geddon would 1 volly you.
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:38:00 -
[10]
Arguing with you leads nowhere, but let me tell as a final statement, that we do nothing but PvP every day, so sure I'm not knowing, what I'm telling you.
And I wan't to see that BS, that hits me from 50km away, when I'ts not able to even target me 
We fly in gangs, yes, and the Recons are there, to support the gang with it's EW.
Rapier webs the enemies tacklers, Falcon jamms enemy damagedealers, Arazu damps enemy damagedealers... Pilgrim, well... as I stated the Pilgrim needs some help, but clearly not a range-bonus instead of the Drone-boni.
Rook, Lachesis and Pilgrim is flown in gangs, because you don't need anyone to cloak up, if you're flying in a gang.
You're clarly talking about small gangs, with maximum 5-10 people, but thats not, where the Force Recons besides the Falcon and Rapier are flown.
Fly in gangs with 20+ and you'll see, how effective the Arazu can be, as you don't damp range, but Scan-Resolution, after the Falcon/Rook/Scorpion has jammed the target.
.
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:39:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Grytok on 08/05/2008 14:40:53
fkin forums...
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:40:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Grytok on 08/05/2008 14:40:33
fkin forums...
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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Grytok
Arguing with you leads nowhere, but let me tell as a final statement, that we do nothing but PvP every day, so sure I'm not knowing, what I'm telling you.
And I wan't to see that BS, that hits me from 50km away, when I'ts not able to even target me
We fly in gangs, yes, and the Recons are there, to support the gang with it's EW.
Rapier webs the enemies tacklers, Falcon jamms enemy damagedealers, Arazu damps enemy damagedealers... Pilgrim, well... as I stated the Pilgrim needs some help, but clearly not a range-bonus instead of the Drone-boni.
Rook, Lachesis and Pilgrim is flown in gangs, because you don't need anyone to cloak up, if you're flying in a gang.
You're clarly talking about small gangs, with maximum 5-10 people, but thats not, where the Force Recons besides the Falcon and Rapier are flown.
Fly in gangs with 20+ and you'll see, how effective the Arazu can be, as you don't damp range, but Scan-Resolution, after the Falcon/Rook/Scorpion has jammed the target.
I stand corrected.
I mean from such a prestigious and famous corp & alliance, and you sir... such a high end pvper.
How many kills have you got out of curiosity in the last 6months with your terrible setups?
& nothing can target you @ 50km?, so you dampen the entire gang?, wow thats impressive... how many midslots do you actually have?
So 1 person with decent ranged guns instapopping your terrible ship with a poor setup dont happen that often?
Im not flaming, im just pointing out how idiots like you derail threads with valid points.
Now go, back into the game, continue you campaign of constant death & destruction in your X3 MFS arazu...
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Grytok
Rapier webs the enemies tacklers, Falcon jamms enemy damagedealers, Arazu damps enemy damagedealers...
And in that situation (if you're using it for the damping), what exactly is the point to bringing an Arazu over an additional Falcon? I mean, even a Blackbird would do a better job at keeping ship's sensors out of the fight than an Arazu does nowadays.
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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2008.05.08 14:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Grytok
Rapier webs the enemies tacklers, Falcon jamms enemy damagedealers, Arazu damps enemy damagedealers...
And in that situation (if you're using it for the damping), what exactly is the point to bringing an Arazu over an additional Falcon? I mean, even a Blackbird would do a better job at keeping ship's sensors out of the fight than an Arazu does nowadays.
Totally agreed 100% ^^
Nice to see the other posters in the thread know what they are talking about.
But about the topic, what are your thoughts?
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Cautet
Precision Engineering
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 15:06:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cautet on 08/05/2008 15:14:03
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Grytok
Rapier webs the enemies tacklers, Falcon jamms enemy damagedealers, Arazu damps enemy damagedealers...
And in that situation (if you're using it for the damping), what exactly is the point to bringing an Arazu over an additional Falcon? I mean, even a Blackbird would do a better job at keeping ship's sensors out of the fight than an Arazu does nowadays.
1. The Arazu can scram at decent distance.
2. It's 100% chance.
So the way it works is rapier holds the target still and can use the full range bonus on its webs because it doesn't have to get close to scram and the arazu scrams and stops the target from targeting the rapier.
The non-cloaking recons are slightly different ships to the cloaking recons and there are many advantages to using a rook over a falcon in roaming gangs, not least the better cap, better resists, more midslots, faster locking.
Pilgrim - don't fly it but have a friend who does:
http://kb.insrg.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=39435
Maybe it does need a boost, i don't fly it so I can't comment, but it's not the piece of rubbish some people suggest.
Arazu - I'll give you my comments when I have better drone skills, I got Galenti cruiser 5 just for the Galenti recons.
To Antarus Lars: Calm it down abit please. You just make yourself look bad with the flames.
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 15:21:00 -
[17]
I don't have to tell you how much kills I've got during the last 6 month flying Recons, as I don't need to show off.
My point stays, that the Arazu does not need any buffs.
For the Pilgrim I've given you a link to another topic in this very forums, where others and me have discussed about it allready.
.
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Everyone Dies
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.05.08 16:12:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Everyone Dies on 08/05/2008 16:12:37
arazu and pilgrim are fine, please end these threads.
no ship has 100% chance to damp a bs down to 20km and scramble people from 45km like the arazu. the nano-arazu/nano-pilgrim are deadly.
damps with lock time scripts are deadly against ships when you coordinate with a falcon.
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Anope
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 18:07:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Anope on 08/05/2008 18:07:37
yall need to stop using the "arazu/Rapier" excuse to prove your points about the Arazu's effectiveness
Two nanoMachariel's also work well together...
too be honest I think a small speed buff to the Arazu might actually do the trick... lets face it the only competent arazu setups post nerf is Nano
if we didnt have to fit that 3rd or 4th speed mod that would give us the ability to maybe add a magstab to help with its dps problem... or add a cap relay to get added cap for that MWD
Grytok.. you completely lost me at 3xMF, from there on I didnt take anything you said seriously... the only way that setup would EVER work is if you had something with Webs keeping that target down for you, in which case that is not an arazu.. but TWO ships. which invalidates anything your saying about the arazu being a balanced ship
also when he said a geddon insta popping you... he means in a fleet engagement... if Evoke is honestly capable of keeping the entire enemey fleet permajammed/dampned with even numbers.. im yet to see it. Arazu is a glass water gun that always gets primaried
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 18:26:00 -
[20]
You got it right infront of you Anope.... I'm talking about gangs/fleets, and there'll allways be support like Rapiers and what not.
Don't try to balance out ships by comparing them one to the other for it's solo-capabilities. This will result in beeing all ships the same.
Ships, and especially the Recon Ships are very specialized, and the Arazu performs in it's intended role quite good.
Only Recon Ship that doesn't perform very well, either solo or in a gang is the Pilgrim.
An Arazu with 3 MFS II in a Recon-Gang does perform absolutely fine, as it does'nt have to fear very much, when flying with Rapiers and Falcons alongside.
You all simply did'nt want to see, what I'm talking about, because you allways do the 1vs1 thingy.
1vs1 in a MMO with specialized ships is not what we should base on.
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The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.08 18:33:00 -
[21]
Now try fitting the pilgrim correctly and stop expecting to gank every HAC , BS etc you see. The pilgrim dosnt need a nos range bonus, you just have to pick your fights.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.05.08 18:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Grytok
You got it right infront of you Anope.... I'm talking about gangs/fleets, and there'll allways be support like Rapiers and what not.
Don't try to balance out ships by comparing them one to the other for it's solo-capabilities. This will result in beeing all ships the same.
Ships, and especially the Recon Ships are very specialized, and the Arazu performs in it's intended role quite good.
Only Recon Ship that doesn't perform very well, either solo or in a gang is the Pilgrim.
An Arazu with 3 MFS II in a Recon-Gang does perform absolutely fine, as it does'nt have to fear very much, when flying with Rapiers and Falcons alongside.
You all simply did'nt want to see, what I'm talking about, because you allways do the 1vs1 thingy.
1vs1 in a MMO with specialized ships is not what we should base on.
Why not fly a HAC instead if you're gonna fit 3x Magnetic field stabs? And any ship is useful when flying with rapiers and falcons so I don't see how that would "prove" that the arazu is fine. The fact is that any ship with an MWD will eventually either catch the arazu or run it out of cap, scripts take far too long to reload for there to be any way to switch scripts before you have a nanoship on top of you and if you do happen to find a BS, BC or hell even a cruiser they can just pop your drones since damps hardly have any effect on locktime anymore. You'd just be better off flying a different ship.
Yarr |
Anope
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 18:45:00 -
[23]
Pilgrim - capable of solo pvp
Rapier - capable of solo pvp
arazu - Lacking for solo due to recent nerfs
Falcon on the otherhand sucks solo
but my point being these may be used as support ships... but the cloaking device makes it ideal for solo work aswell (pick and choose philosophy)
the force recons fill the gang/fleet role alot better..
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Anope
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 18:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: William DeMeo
Why not fly a HAC instead if you're gonna fit 3x Magnetic field stabs? And any ship is useful when flying with rapiers and falcons so I don't see how that would "prove" that the arazu is fine. The fact is that any ship with an MWD will eventually either catch the arazu or run it out of cap, scripts take far too long to reload for there to be any way to switch scripts before you have a nanoship on top of you and if you do happen to find a BS, BC or hell even a cruiser they can just pop your drones since damps hardly have any effect on locktime anymore. You'd just be better off flying a different ship.
this.
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Nomad Storm
Ad Astra Vexillum
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.08 19:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grytok
You have no clue.
Pilgrim:
Your proposed change takes away the uniqueness of this ship, but it has some serious problems as it is. Giving it the range of the Curse is not a good tradeoff, as we'll see nano-Pilgrims alot. 5 Low-Slots will make this ship pretty damn fast.
THIS, if you want range use a curse and if your idea of a boost involves such a drastic change I would rather fly my "nerfed" recon.
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Barsexual
Caldari
Castle Greyskull
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Posted - 2008.05.08 20:59:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Barsexual on 08/05/2008 20:59:48
Originally by: Grytok
I don't have to tell you how much kills I've got during the last 6 month flying Recons, as I don't need to show off.
My point stays, that the Arazu does not need any buffs.
For the Pilgrim I've given you a link to another topic in this very forums, where others and me have discussed about it allready.
\
These are all your kills?
http://evoke.wuim.de/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39114
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Xaen
Caldari
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.05.08 21:31:00 -
[27]
The following recons are a awesome:
Falcon
Curse
Rapier
Huginn
the following recons are garbage:
Pilgrim
Arazu
Lachesis
Rook
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Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Anope
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Xaen
The following recons are a awesome:
Falcon
Curse
Rapier
Huginn
the following recons are garbage:
Pilgrim
Arazu
Lachesis
Rook
completely agree
and if I had a quarter for everytime people misuse/typo "are a" I would be a millionare, dont worry I do it to
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Anope
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:04:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Anope on 08/05/2008 22:04:49
Grytok... wow http://evoke.wuim.de/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39114
I love seeing your expansive experience with arazu... oh and how you use large shield boosters II's
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:15:00 -
[30]
Yeah, with this char I'm posting here, sure that's all or do you really expect me to post with my main in the forums?
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Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2008.05.08 22:30:00 -
[31]
I just don't get why the Pilgrim is the only force recon without any range bonus on it's (so-called) ewar !?!?
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Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Mel Gibbson
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Posted - 2008.05.08 23:36:00 -
[32]
the pilgrim's ewar is tracking disruptors. seeing the fact 2 of them can shut down any turret ship, i'd say they pwn.
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Nomad Storm
Ad Astra Vexillum
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.09 00:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Madla Mafia
I just don't get why the Pilgrim is the only force recon without any range bonus on it's (so-called) ewar !?!?
Its ewar range is vastly beyond its operational range(not a bad thing, the ewar range or operational range  ).
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Naviset
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Posted - 2008.05.09 00:48:00 -
[34]
I don't agree with any of the people (idiots) trying to prove the Arazu and pilgrim don't need help. Grytok, in fleets, you should know that to be perfectly honest individual ships don't matter, and with 9 other ships in the game now scramming at 28+km, the Arazu isn't really that impressive even for the scram range.
Yeah, damps aren't chance based, but the probability with missing with 6 multispecs or a couple racials is pretty slim. And even if they do miss, 90% of the time the caldari recons are far enough away that the lock only effects the folks close in for 10 seconds or so.
The pilgrim is pathetic without the range bonus unless theres a ton of other ewar about and NOBODY in the enemy gang can lock.
The Arazu just simply isn't worth flying. Maybes its "not that bad" but its certainly not worth buying, fitting, undocking, and flying about. I'd take a falcon or a rapier out over it any day of the week (and do, as I can fly all the recons, have tried them all, and retired my gal ones and only use a curse if I use amarr.)
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 04:23:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 09/05/2008 04:23:23
Originally by: Cautet
Edited by: Cautet on 08/05/2008 15:14:03
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Grytok
Rapier webs the enemies tacklers, Falcon jamms enemy damagedealers, Arazu damps enemy damagedealers...
And in that situation (if you're using it for the damping), what exactly is the point to bringing an Arazu over an additional Falcon? I mean, even a Blackbird would do a better job at keeping ship's sensors out of the fight than an Arazu does nowadays.
1. The Arazu can scram at decent distance.
Yes, but he said they were using it for the damping.
Quote:
2. It's 100% chance.
100% of having an effect that (depending on the situation) may or may not actually be useful. The most you will get out of it is keeping a single battleshipfrom being able to target and ten only outside of a set range. A blackbird putting all it jammers on a single battleship will keep it from locking things at any range, and it will do it from much farther away.
Quote:
there are many advantages to using a rook over a falcon in roaming gangs, not least the better cap, better resists, more midslots, faster locking.
Nope. They have the exact same number of mid slots (and low slots), and the Falcon has slightly better cap. What the Rook has over the Falcon is slightly better tanking and more fire power, neither of which is particularly useful to a long-range jamming ship.
The Trinity changes to the Falcon have made the Rook obsolote. There is nothing there to make up for its lack of cloaking.
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Trefnis
Minmatar
R.U.S.T.
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.09 08:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Anope
Edited by: Anope on 08/05/2008 22:04:49
Grytok... wow http://evoke.wuim.de/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39114
I love seeing your expansive experience with arazu... oh and how you use large shield boosters II's
yes and looking here
http://kb.insrg.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=49976&view=ships_weapons
you really know everything about recons.
the point is i wont say anything for or agains those ships as i dont fly them, and nor should you
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Celador Nane
the united
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Posted - 2008.05.09 08:39:00 -
[37]
Yup, totally agree
The pilgrim/arazu/lachesis/rook are garbage.
The huggis is decent
The Curse/Falcon/Raipier are amazing
If im ever FCin n somebodys tells me they are going to bring either an arazu or a pilgrim i just laugh..., then ask if they can fly something else.
In the age of heavy interdictors the scram bonus is useless & the EW power of the Falcon totally destroys the arazu (considering the falcon fights out of the range of damps) & can keep 3 to 4 ships jammed at a time.
The lachesis is just a big bag of lol's... just look at the price...
supply = somebody with mental problems
demand = noobs who wanna fly sumat pink
The huggin at least has the valuable web range bonus thats amazingly usefull, not to mention fights closer anyway so the cloak isnt quite as important.
The rook..., well considering it cant cloak its very vunerable..., and does nothing better than the falcon apart from dps
If your using your falcon for dps.. well please contract it to me,& ill use it proply.
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Kingwood
Amarr
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Star Buccaneers
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Posted - 2008.05.09 08:43:00 -
[38]
Wtf? Worst idea ever. Oh yay, my DPS just dropped to what, 120? Why should I fly this ship when I can fly an Inty and tackle much better? For the love of god, let it keep it's damage bonus and don't give it a range bonus. It's going to make this ship totally useless.
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EvilSpork
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.05.11 22:41:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Anope
Edited by: Anope on 08/05/2008 14:09:44
Originally by: Antarus Lars
Originally by: Grytok
Actually your the one without a clue.
MWD away from you, and their free
MWD towards you, and your screwed
ok seriously..
YOU'RE = you are
YOUR = a possession
THEIR = someones possession
THEY'RE = they are
THERE = a location
they're over there with their spaceships. your arazu setup sounds like you're going to die.
please, for the love of god use the proper word. they all mean very different things!
i dont care if your spelling sucks, or your grammar is sub-par, as long as you at least TRY to use the proper word.
also plz fix the pilgrim to not be the black sheep of the recons due to being the only short range ship in the class.
give the arazu some love too.
stupid scripts destroyed so many things 
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Kaben
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Posted - 2008.05.12 00:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Antarus Lars
Firstly
Im under the general impression that all Minmatar & Caldari pilots are satisfied with there respective recon ships.
I have never heard any corp mates or gang mates moan about there effectivness.
Lets take a look at the Pilgrim (first one the two force recons with problems)
Pilgrim
All Combat recons get a damage bonus, and the force recons get a cyno bonus... apart from this ship..
Proposed change.
Pilgrim +10% damage bonus
Exchanged for 40% nos & neut range bonus
What will this do?, well it will mean the pilgrim can effectivly tackle like the arazu & the huggin without being in major jeporady.
But with such low dps & drone HP it will not be able to solo battleships (like it could pre-nos-nerf), which as fun as it is... isnt particually balance.
No rapiers/falcons or arazus can break any reasonable tank.
This ship would suddenly become a great tackler, could work on gates in a gang, can pin down hostiles ships with ease like all the others can (except falcon but thats already fantastic), it could also solo decently, while not being overpowerd
Arazu & Lachesis
Both suffer the same problem... simply that remote sensor damps got hit "farr" to hard with the nerf, they either need a +10% bonus per level, or even a 15% bonus (falcon gets 20% i may add)
These ships roles have even more recently been taken with the introduction of Heavy Interdictor & the scriped 30km distruptor.., why have a point @ 40km when you can have 2 infinte points @ 30?...., not to mention the recent scram range buff of the low dps ceptors.
I beleive these 2 changed would not be overpowered, but would make these ships far more usefull.
Thoughs?
Ant-
I can fly both amarr and gallente recons.
There is nothing wrong with the pilgrim, your proposed change would lead this ship to being just like every other force recon. Outclassing it's brother. To me the pilgrim is special, it performs a role currenlty its brother the curse cannot, meanwhile the curse has it's own role. This is the way all force recons should be, how to implement it IDK? IMO it's not that the pilgrim is broken, it's that all other force recons are broken.
As far as the arazu/lach goes, they are just broken completely, I do aggree that something has to be done here, but not something that will lead us down the same road in that the lach is useless. The only reason you'd use a lach before was slightly better then it's t1 hull but cheaper then the arazu.
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Depp Knight
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.12 01:00:00 -
[41]
Do not remove the pilgrims dmg bonus. Its a close range ship. I just needs far better cap or cap recharge rate. Its a damn cap warfare ship. Yet it struggles to run its cap draining mods.
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Ketarin Vengar
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Posted - 2008.05.12 15:08:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Depp Knight
Do not remove the pilgrims dmg bonus. Its a close range ship. I just needs far better cap or cap recharge rate. Its a damn cap warfare ship. Yet it struggles to run its cap draining mods.
QFT,
The ship needs "something".
But my main problem was with the number of mids.
10mn afterburner
Web
Point
Cap Booster
Tracking Distruptor (only 1 EW mod isnt enuff) (morso after stupid scripting that really wanst needed for tracking distruptors)
Personally i do believe that the pilgrim would be better with the range bonus, so at least it would be able to operate as a very powerful tackler which can also stop em leaving (thing of a group of em ambushing capitals ...mwhahaha)
Ahem..
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Kaben
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Posted - 2008.05.12 23:50:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ketarin Vengar
QFT,
The ship needs "something".
But my main problem was with the number of mids.
10mn afterburner
Web
Point
Cap Booster
Tracking Distruptor (only 1 EW mod isnt enuff) (morso after stupid scripting that really wanst needed for tracking distruptors)
Personally i do believe that the pilgrim would be better with the range bonus, so at least it would be able to operate as a very powerful tackler which can also stop em leaving (thing of a group of em ambushing capitals ...mwhahaha)
Ahem..
The pilgrim with a range bonus is a better version of the curse. Even without it's damage it would shine more then the curse like every other force recon currently.
My mids are currently.
1 10mn ab II
2 td's II
1warp disrupt II, (or scram II considering range of this ship to begin with making disrupter somewhat useless and saves on cap)
1 web II
Yes it's cap stable only problem I'd have is running into ships that are ships like it (cap warfare) or nano's which from the live dev blog most of them should be slowing down within the near future.
IMO force recons need a role, pilgrim is the only one that works correctly. Or in other words the other force recons need to be brought down a tad as to make there counterparts (combat recon) more viable in actual combat situations whereas the force recons are better for engagements which require more stealthy approach. Currently force recons get all of the benifits of it's combat class with little of the draw backs in which the cov cloak more then makes up for those drawbacks (save for the pilgrim).
About the only thing that I can think of that would help the pilgrim in it's current state is slightly more cap or better base cap recharge.
Only force recon that needs boosting is the zu so it can use it's ewar effectively, but not too effective. The lach needs a slight better boost then the zu would get so it's more combat related.
This is just my two isk worth.
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