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Hellspawn666 Minmatar Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:35:00 - [61] Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you, as someone said further up in this thread, just because the setup isnt ganked doesnt mean its successful. When im shown a bunch of successful kills with this setup ill believe its as pwn and overpowered as they are making it out to be. Personally i think its the work of people who dislike the drone damage since they think anything smaller then a dread should be invulerble to one....
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:38:00 - [62] Originally by: Amastat Trolls If he's not in siege you scramble the dread so he doesn't have a option to warp back in on-top of the sniper dreads. If he's in siege, then you don't really have a problem since he can't even move.. or align, or warp. You can't just undercut my argument by calling me a troll. Well, you can but it doesn't improve your debating position at all and looks quite petty. You aren't considering the situation the original poster presented. He camps a station in his Moros and when threatened by anything he has the option of docking. At any time, he can disengage and wait out the 60-second aggression timer before he can redock. The only way to actually kill him is to kill him within those 60 seconds or bump him outside docking range within them. It doesn't matter if you have a souple of sniper phoenixes, it doesn't change anything as he'll just wait 60 seconds and dock. As I SAID, you'll need 5-6 sieging dreads to eat through all of his hitpoints within 60 seconds and if you can spare a few battleships to neutralise as much of his capacitor as they can, that will decrease his repair ability. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.12 03:51:00 - [63] Edited by: Alindyar on 12/05/2008 03:58:04 Originally by: Hellspawn666 Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you, as someone said further up in this thread, just because the setup isnt ganked doesnt mean its successful. When im shown a bunch of successful kills with this setup ill believe its as pwn and overpowered as they are making it out to be. Personally i think its the work of people who dislike the drone damage since they think anything smaller then a dread should be invulerble to one.... (Sorry for mass spam but you did ask to see...) 2008.05.07 17:38:00 Victim: * Alliance: Bedlam Consortium Corp: Emergent Chaos Destroyed: Falcon System: * Security: 0.1 Damage Taken: 3651 Involved parties: Name: Alindyar (laid the final blow) Security: -8.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: The Golden Goat Ship: Moros Weapon: Warden II Damage Done: 3651 Destroyed items: ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Phase Inverter II (Cargo) Heavy Missile Launcher II ECM - White Noise Generator II (Cargo) Signal Distortion Amplifier II, Qty: 2 ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II (Cargo) Particle Dispersion Augmentor I, Qty: 2 Warp Disruptor II (Cargo) Type-D Altered SS Overdrive Injector (Cargo) Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile, Qty: 120 (Cargo) ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Qty: 2 (Cargo) Sensor Booster II Antimatter Charge S, Qty: 40 150mm Railgun I Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile, Qty: 39 Sensor Booster II, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Antimatter Charge S, Qty: 210 (Cargo) Dropped items: Targeting Range (Cargo) ECM - Ion Field Projector II, Qty: 5 ECM - Phase Inverter II, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Heavy Missile Launcher II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II, Qty: 4 (Cargo) Signal Amplifier II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Qty: 2 (Cargo) Scan Resolution Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile, Qty: 120 (Cargo) Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile, Qty: 39 2008.05.05 13:24:00 Victim: * Alliance: Omega Alliance Corp: Stargate Universe Destroyed: Absolution System: * Security: 0.1 Damage Taken: 15487 Involved parties: Name: Alindyar (laid the final blow) Security: -4.6 Alliance: NONE Corp: The Golden Goat Ship: Moros Weapon: Garde II Damage Done: 15487 Destroyed items: Heavy Pulse Laser II, Qty: 5 Medium Capacitor Booster II Conflagration M, Qty: 11 (Cargo) Damage Control II Warp Disruptor II Scorch M, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Heat Sink II Heavy Assault Missile Specialization (Cargo) Medium Energy Neutralizer II Cap Booster 800 Radio M, Qty: 3 Drone Sharpshooting (Cargo) Capacitor Control Circuit I, Qty: 2 Dropped items: Drone Navigation (Cargo) Heavy Pulse Laser II Exotic Dancers (Cargo) Conflagration M, Qty: 7 (Cargo) Stasis Webifier II Scorch M, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Thermic Hardener II Radio M, Qty: 3 Multifrequency M, Qty: 6 (Cargo) Cap Booster 800, Qty: 9 (Cargo) Medium Armor Repairer II, Qty: 2 2008.05.03 20:36:00 Victim: * Alliance: Legion of Honor Corp: Unity of Honor Destroyed: Hyperion System: * Security: 0.1 Damage Taken: 31419 Involved parties: Name: Alindyar (laid the final blow) Security: -2.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: The Golden Goat Ship: Moros Weapon: Berserker II Damage Done: 17682 Name: Amarr Sentry Gun / Royal Khanid Navy Damage Done: 13737 Destroyed items: Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Qty: 4 Anti-EM Pump I Cap Booster 800, Qty: 16 (Cargo) Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Armor Repairer II Cap Booster 800, Qty: 4 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Vespa II, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II, Qty: 2 Cap Recharger II Void L, Qty: 148 Heavy Capacitor Booster I Anti-Thermic Pump I Dropped items: Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Qty: 4 Void L, Qty: 3187 (Cargo) Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I, Qty: 3 (Drone Bay) Enough?
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.12 03:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Amastat Trolls If he's not in siege you scramble the dread so he doesn't have a option to warp back in on-top of the sniper dreads. If he's in siege, then you don't really have a problem since he can't even move.. or align, or warp. You can't just undercut my argument by calling me a troll. Well, you can but it doesn't improve your debating position at all and looks quite petty. You aren't considering the situation the original poster presented. He camps a station in his Moros and when threatened by anything he has the option of docking. At any time, he can disengage and wait out the 60-second aggression timer before he can redock. The only way to actually kill him is to kill him within those 60 seconds or bump him outside docking range within them. It doesn't matter if you have a souple of sniper phoenixes, it doesn't change anything as he'll just wait 60 seconds and dock. As I SAID, you'll need 5-6 sieging dreads to eat through all of his hitpoints within 60 seconds and if you can spare a few battleships to neutralise as much of his capacitor as they can, that will decrease his repair ability. I have 191 second recharge rate. Assuming im only running my local repper (not the remote reps) you need 34 Heavy Unstable Neuts. THIRTY FOUR Heavy Unstable Neuts + Local rep takes 19minutes to cap dead this setup.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.05.12 04:26:00 - [65] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/05/2008 04:26:36 As I said and say again, just make it so people can't redock for 15 min after aggroing. I am pretty sure that in 15 your Moros will die an horrible death... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
ceyriot Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.12 05:10:00 - [66] Its not 15 minutes in 0.0 mate... Faction Store - Killboard
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.12 05:32:00 - [67] Originally by: Hellspawn666 Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you So I could lay claim to a low sec station with only 3 Moros? Thats quite an interesting situation if said station has some useful agents or manufactoring/research slots. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Wardeneo Gallente BLL Wise Guys	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:32:00 - [68] Originally by: easei Amarr stations have a 30KM docking range so being bumped off is pretty much not going to happen. NERF AMMAR STATIONS :P o/j :) wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:39:00 - [69] Originally by: Sweet Pea Then the problem isn't the ship, its the docking/aggro mechanics. For if his ship were unable to redock he would be toast. Nerfing the ship due to a pilots ability to exploit the docking/aggro mechanic is not fixing a problem, its creating a whole new one. This. Far too much fighting around lowsec / 0.0 NPC stations consists of sitting trimarked battleships or capitals on the station with remote repair modules, and wiping out anything nearby. It breaks the risk/reward model of EVE such ships can attack with virtually no risk to themselves. On some station models it's not even possible to bump ships at all if they're in a specific place, let alone get on grid and bump them within a 60 second window. Aggro timers need to vary based on ship size, ideally with them increasing further based on proximity to the station at the time of the offense. It would also be nice to see a variation in NPC sentry guns in the same vein as starbase guns, with different DPS / tracking for killing different size targets more effectively.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:38:00 - [70] Like I said in my original post, I do believe this should be fixed. However I am unsure as to how the mechanics can be changed to address this. Dock range is an option... But would changing on dock range on 100% of stations effect the game too badly.
MysteriousJade	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:56:00 - [71] Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Originally by: Sweet Pea Then the problem isn't the ship, its the docking/aggro mechanics. For if his ship were unable to redock he would be toast. Nerfing the ship due to a pilots ability to exploit the docking/aggro mechanic is not fixing a problem, its creating a whole new one. ^^^^ This Docking mechanics need to be changed badly. sry but you both are wrong. as long as small tiny ships (in comparison to the size of a dread) can bump it without being damaged/destroyed (because of the impact) noone should change the dockingrange. the problem is the dread, not the dockingrange.
Sweet Pea	Posted - 2008.05.12 13:43:00 - [72] The dicussion here is about trying to find a risk vs reward that is suitable. As far as Dread vs Dread combat the Moros is balanced. If you compare the Moros versus other dreads in effectiveness against smaller targets it probably would rank near the top of that list (Phoenix coming in a close second). Problem most don't realize is that with lvl 5 skills and no sensor booster the Moros takes 30-45 seconds to lock anything. Nerfing a Dread that is very well balanced it not the answer. Make it where engaging a target while you are within 3000m of dock range isn't possible. Solves the problem of a Moros deaggroing and docking in 60 seconds. Since the ship does about 87m/s the ship would have to travel 35 seconds at max speed to reach dock range (and the small issue of acceleration that takes forever). Plenty of time for a nano-domi to bump him off and get a web on him. Would prevent alot of griefers from sitting smack dab in the middle of the station getting risk free kills.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.12 14:03:00 - [73] Yeah, by the time you managed to bump him off station with lets say, 3 'nano' battleships, he probably would have slaughtered them all. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Wardeneo Gallente BLL Wise Guys	Posted - 2008.05.12 14:33:00 - [74] is it just me or does this thread sound r.e.t.a.r.d.e.d??? the reason i say this is because y would you ask to nerf a ship that u fly and that is good? all sounds wrong to me ^^ wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Wardeneo is it just me or does this thread sound r.e.t.a.r.d.e.d??? the reason i say this is because y would you ask to nerf a ship that u fly and that is good? all sounds wrong to me ^^ wardeneo I can't tell what the motivation is really. The Moros is unique among the dreds in that it is actually a credible threat to smaller ships thanks to it's drone damage bonus. On the other hand, given the tiny population of Eve who can both fly and afford a Moros it doesn't seem to be a problem.
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:26:00 - [76] Edited by: Kusha''an on 12/05/2008 15:27:03 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I think it's well overpowered. It's a dread, yet it can kill anything from a frigate up to other caps. It's even more effective against small targets than some battelships (such as the torp raven), while being deadly to other caps compared to that battelships. Other dreads can't do that. Dude. *It's. A. Dread.* It's supposed to kill all other ships, including other capitals. Have you noticed the skill tree for this ship? Why on earth would somebody spend that much time skilling for something that can't even kill its own counterpart? Can a frig kill another frig? Can a cruiser kill another cruiser? Can a battlecruiser kill another battlecruiser? Can a battleship kill another battleship? If yes, then are they overpowered? ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:31:00 - [77] Originally by: Alindyar I have 191 second recharge rate. Assuming im only running my local repper (not the remote reps) you need 34 Heavy Unstable Neuts. THIRTY FOUR Heavy Unstable Neuts + Local rep takes 19minutes to cap dead this setup. Come to think of it, my own Moros is about the same as it has a massive cap reserve with three semiconductor memory cells. I designed it to specifically fend off neutralisers. And EW won't work against you from anything within sentry drone range because you've got Sentry drones out (presumably set to aggressive) and aggroing you will cause the sentry drones to fire. In dealing with Ginger's station-camping moros we usually had someone use EW from outside his range while we all hapilly went about our business. A cruiser defeating a dreadnought by making him unable to lock any targets is a victory in my books. We only managed to actually kill him because he made mistakes. If the docking range on the station had been reasonably small instead of stupidly massive (which is a confirmed bug BTW), he would have been able to be bumped out within 60 seconds. Instead, we had to rely on goading him into attacking while we bumped him so he would be out of dock range before he realised it. Needless to say, if you don't make the same mistake you can't be killed on a station with a massive dock range. Originally by: arbalesttom Yeah, by the time you managed to bump him off station with lets say, 3 'nano' battleships, he probably would have slaughtered them all. Not at all. When we bumped ginger off the docking ring, we used nano battleships with large shield extenders and had a carrier with remote shield transfers on standby. Also remember that after the battleships collide with the moros, they can dock. We had a constant stream of battleships exiting the station, mwding at him and docking after collision. It was quite beautiful to see it all work and he couldn't even lock any of us before we had docked again :D Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:44:00 - [78] Originally by: Sweet Pea The dicussion here is about trying to find a risk vs reward that is suitable. As far as Dread vs Dread combat the Moros is balanced. If you compare the Moros versus other dreads in effectiveness against smaller targets it probably would rank near the top of that list (Phoenix coming in a close second). Problem most don't realize is that with lvl 5 skills and no sensor booster the Moros takes 30-45 seconds to lock anything. Nerfing a Dread that is very well balanced it not the answer. Make it where engaging a target while you are within 3000m of dock range isn't possible. The general rule with balance changes is to identify the source of the problem and then correct it without affecting the rest of the game in a major way. Prohibiting all combat at stations is a major change that would potentially ruin PvP for a large number of people. Not being able to camp your enemy into a station would ** a lot of people off. Let's do this in a number of logically laid out steps: Step 1: Identify the problem(s): - The moros is operationally invulnerable and still deadly when used to camp a station. Step 2: Identify possible causes: 1- The moros cannot be feasibly killed by a reasonable force within 60 seconds and can redock. 2- The moros can kill other ships with its drones within dock range of the station. 3- The moros cannot be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. 4- The moros is still deadly to smaller ships when not in siege mode. Step 3: Suggest potential solutions that would counter any of the causes (even if they're stupid solutions): 1- Change the moros so that it is easily killed within 60 seconds by a reasonable force. 2- Change the redock timer to give more time to kill it. 2b- Change the redock timer for dreadnoughts only to give more time to kill it. 2c- Change the moros so that it cannot reasonably kill smaller ships with its drones. 2d- Disallow combat within dock range of the station. 3- Change the moros so that it can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. 3b- Change the dock range so that a moros can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. 4- Change the moros so that it cannot kill smaller ships when not in siege mode. Any of those solutions would make the problem disappear but obviously some are stupid, so we need another step. Step 4: Analyse impact of solutions:** We want the strongest logical precondition to our problem, a change that only affects the problem domain. 1- The moros is already balanced with regard to capital-to-capital and capital-to-POS wafare. Making it easier to kill would upset the existing game balance to solve a relatively minor problem. This solution is not viable. 2- Changing the redock timer would be far too big a change to the game. The timer is balanced around sub-capital ships and so to change it for everyone would upset previously established game balance. This solution is not viable. 2b- Changing the redock timer for only dreadnoughts would avoid upsetting subcapital game balance but it would significantly affect capital-gamebalance. In 0.0, capital ships fight gangs of other capital ships and not being able to dock for 15 minutes would significantly affect capit-al-to-capital pvp balance, not to mention annoying people who want to dock but have just jumped home from a battle. This solution is not viable. 2c- Changing the ability of the moros to hit small ships with its drones would certainly solve the problem but it doesn't stop it from killing battleships and stationary ships. This solution isn't complete and is not viable. 2d- As explained earlier, disallowing combat within docking range would significantly harm gameplay by stopping people from camping others in stations. It would also promote sniping from outside docking range, meaning players would still be vulnerable to the moros' railguns if he got a lock. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 16:05:00 - [79] 3- There isn't really any change that can be done to the moros itself to make it so that it can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. Reducing its mass, screwing with its agility or messing withs its top speed would just upset current balance and for that reason, this solution isn't viable. 3b- Changing the dock range so that a moros can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds would certainly solve the problem. The impact to subcapital PvP would be minimal and the huge dock ranges have already been confirmed as bugs (I filed a bug report). Reducing the dock range to a more reasonable size would solve the problem by making it easier to bump the moros off the docking ring within 60 seconds. This solution is viable. 4- Changing the moros so that it cannot kill smaller ships when not in siege mode would also solve the problem. A dreadnought in siege mode is stuck in place for 10 minutes, which is more than enough time for a reasonable force (5 carriers or so) to kill it. This solution is viable. Step 5: Considering other issues: It's not a good idea to examine a solution in isolation. We have to examine similar problems and the effect our changes have on those. Out of all the solutions, the only two that are viable are changing the drone damage bonus to only work in siege mode or lowering the dock range so that the moros can be bumped off the docking ring within 60 seconds. Although these problems both solve our problem domain, the first solution doesn't address the additional issue of the phoenix dreadnought's ability to deal a lot of damage to battleships when not in siege mode too. The second solution would solve both of these issues and so is the most viable for implementation. Remember though that this solution is only as valid as the problem domain. If the problem itself is shown to be void, this implies that the solution is unneccesary. In that light, I'd like to address two possible sticking-points in the problem identification stage. Step 2 part 1 and 3 make two assumptions that must hold for the problem domain to be correct. If either of these issues is proven incorrect and it's possible to kill a dreadnought despite them, there is no problem to solve. Part 1 assumed that a moros cannot be feasibly killed by a reasonable force within 60 seconds. To prove this, we have to define what a reasonable force is. If 6 dreadnoughts jump in on top of him, and drop into siege mode and start firing, can they kill him within 60 seconds? If 6 dreadnoughts can kill him within 60 seconds and is considered a reasonable force to kill another stationcamping dreadnought (which I think it is), then the problem simply does not exist. All that's occured in that case is that nobody has put together a team of 6-7 dreads to take him down, planted bait for him to shoot and executed their plan. That's up to the players to deal with, not CCP. Step 2 part 3 makes the assumption that a moros cannot be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. From memory, we may have actually bumped ginger off the docking ring in Thelan in under 60 seconds. It seemed like a lot more to us but thinking back it was definitely close to 60 seconds and he had definitely docked before when we had tried bumping. Our bumping strategy was in a previous post and was executed with a team of 4-5 battleships, one carrier and some excellent precision. If it's possible to bump him off the docking range within 60 seconds then the problem also does not exist and it's just a matter of nobody having planned and executed a good enough bumping strategy. Again, if this is the case then it's up to the players to solve this problem and not CCP. There's a lot to consider on the issue but that should about cover it. We have two scenarios to prove (that 6-8 dreads can't gank the moros and that he can't be bumped off the station in 60 seconds) and one viable solution that can correct for the problem if those scenarios hold true. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:02:00 - [80] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 12/05/2008 17:02:52 The problem is just the absurd docking ranges since stations got upgraded. You can be 20 km from the docking well, and yet still at '0 m' Fix this and it also fixes a lot of sub-capital station fighting problems. We never used to have such huge docking ranges, so why now? -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:05:00 - [81] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 12/05/2008 17:02:52 The problem is just the absurd docking ranges since stations got upgraded. You can be 20 km from the docking well, and yet still at '0 m' Fix this and it also fixes a lot of sub-capital station fighting problems. We never used to have such huge docking ranges, so why now? I do appreciate not having to spend 10 seconds docking when I decide to go to a station so I guess the change was for convience?
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 12/05/2008 17:02:52 The problem is just the absurd docking ranges since stations got upgraded. You can be 20 km from the docking well, and yet still at '0 m' Fix this and it also fixes a lot of sub-capital station fighting problems. We never used to have such huge docking ranges, so why now? I do appreciate not having to spend 10 seconds docking when I decide to go to a station so I guess the change was for convience? Actually, when you warp to the station you actually warp to the docking range perimeter. Increasing the perimeter by 10km doesn't mean that you'll drop out of warp 10km inside the docking range, just that you'll drop out of warp 10km further from the undock point and station model. Reducing the size of the station dock range doesn't affect normal gameplay. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Kell Braugh	Posted - 2008.05.12 19:03:00 - [83] Originally by: Alindyar They park scorps 150KM away constantly, I just scoop drones, de-aggro. So you run like a little girl.. um-- yeah, nice setup. - EFT screen shots are NOT an accurate example of a ship's abilities.
Zaerlorth Maelkor	Posted - 2008.05.12 19:36:00 - [84] There is nothing wrong with the Moros being able to solo a Battleship. The problem is as many other people have pointed out: Docking range of Amarr stations. ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:11:00 - [85] Originally by: ceyriot Its not 15 minutes in 0.0 mate... Originally by: Etho Demerzel As I said and say again, just make it so people can't redock for 15 min after aggroing. I am pretty sure that in 15 your Moros will die an horrible death... Could you have the decence of reading what you are going to comment about before you post? And to the guys that say that locking people out of the station for 15 min would break game mechanics, I would like to hear a single reasonable motive to back this statement. But you know, there is none... If you undock and shoot people be prepared to commit. This game's main problem at the moment is the ability of pulling out from fights too easily. Be it in stations or in nanoships. Both things must change. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Hellspawn666 Minmatar Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:26:00 - [86] Originally by: Alindyar Edited by: Alindyar on 12/05/2008 03:58:04 Originally by: Hellspawn666 Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you, as someone said further up in this thread, just because the setup isnt ganked doesnt mean its successful. When im shown a bunch of successful kills with this setup ill believe its as pwn and overpowered as they are making it out to be. Personally i think its the work of people who dislike the drone damage since they think anything smaller then a dread should be invulerble to one.... (Sorry for mass spam but you did ask to see...) Basically i hardly consider 2 kills all that great for a moros since we dont know how long you were sitting there to get them, when i see stats for the overpowered amount of kills you get ill believe you i suggest you use a killboard which just takes it from our API. Also the hyperion on their could of been killed by just about anything that could tank him for a bit of time and deal like 400 dps so i hardly think your setup is crazy amazing.
Jessica Kreer	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:47:00 - [87] Quote: when i see stats for the overpowered amount of kills you get Heikki is a fairly well-known user of the moros. Close to 400 kills in it, using pretty much only that tactic. Again, i must point out the solution is mind-bendingly obvious. Make the drone damage bonus apply only in siege mode. All the problems suddenly disappear.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:57:00 - [88] Originally by: Jessica Kreer Again, i must point out the solution is mind-bendingly obvious. Make the drone damage bonus apply only in siege mode. All the problems suddenly disappear. In case you missed my post (which was quite big), I explained that your solution is one of only two viable ones but the other viable solution also counters the additional problem of the phoenix doing the same thing to kill battleships without risk. Your solution would work for the moros but it has no real advantages over the alternative and is narrower in problem-solving scope. Contracting the station dock ranges significantly would be a much more elegant solution. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
rgt53 Emergent Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:59:00 - [89] Edited by: rgt53 on 13/05/2008 17:00:04 I have personally seen Alindyar use this moros setup and nearly lost a mega to it, and personally I think the setup is balanced The problem is not that we don't have the damage to take him out as we do, although we don't have enough dps to take him out in under a minute tho. However the fact that we cant get him off station means that we can't destroy this setup and alas that is why it is believed to be overpowered. The only solution that is viable is to fix the true source of the problem and change the docking range of the station, as Nyphur said and explained in detail his previous posts. This is also true in reverse for station where you undock and are already outside dock range, a problem that has gotten worse since the changes to the undock procedure
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:18:00 - [90] By definition, this Moros cannot be overpowered, because the right amount of attacking ships will force it to de-aggro and dock. If it were overpowered, it would be able to continue ganking docking ships and not be forced to change its behavior. Inside dock, however, the Moros is useless. You might as well call any docked ship overpowered. Seems to me the major gripe is that the Moros cannot be killed in 60 seconds or less. Oh Noes!!! It's a dread. It should be able to tank for 60 seconds. Another example of this is nanoships. Are they overpowered? Well, if they can't kill you or if you do them enough damage, they run away. Does that mean they are overpowered? No. They are forced to change their behavior in order to avoid destruction. ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?

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