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My Moros Is Overpowered. - Nerf it.

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Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:28:00 - [1] Edited by: Alindyar on 10/05/2008 00:29:27 Recently, I've been camping with a Moros (Lame, smack me w/e)... However, the problem is... It works, and it works VERY well. Setup Highs ----- 2x Capital Remote Armor Repairer 2x Capital Shield Transporter Meds ----- 3x Cap Recharger II 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster Lows ----- Capital Armor Repairer 6x Capacitor Power Relay II Rigs ----- 3x CCC Drones ----- Mix of T2 Sentries, Lights, Heavies. Deals out over 1000dps, to drones which in theory, can not ever die if used correctly. (Sentries get 10k or so raw HP). Everything also runs 24/7. Its virtually impossible to die in 60seconds, as thats the longest you'll be aggro'd for after a reasonable fleet arrives. Now while this thread is unauthordox and I will continue to use this setup for all the time it stays avalible. This needs to be fixed. (I don't know how), but it does.
Sharp Feather Gallente Ministry of Natural Resources	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:32:00 - [2] I cant wait to have one.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:34:00 - [3] *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:42:00 - [4] ... until you're bumped from the station.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:45:00 - [5] Originally by: *****zilla ... until you're bumped from the station. Amarr/Caldari stations are incredibly hard to bump a properly placed dread off in 60s.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:46:00 - [6] There is a reason why cloaking 10km+/sec Machariels exist....Assumeing it still works.
Hardtail Red Dawn Empire Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:47:00 - [7] lolbump
Fivel Ve Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:50:00 - [8] welp ... i have a camping in my moros addiction ship setups
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:50:00 - [9] Moros has the singular distinction that it gets a large chunk of DPS outside siege mode. IIRC about 1000dps from drones. Drone bonus in siege only, and I don't think anyone has any problems with it. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Kuzya Morozov Gallente The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.10 03:15:00 - [10] Even worse than this thread being ********, the set-up you are using is terrible.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 03:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Even worse than this thread being ********, the set-up you are using is terrible. Shame it works then?
easei AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.10 03:36:00 - [12] I will vouch for this setup as I have seen 1st person the destruction Alindyar rains down. The ship is fine however, Amarr stations have a 30KM docking range so being bumped off is pretty much not going to happen.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.10 03:39:00 - [13] Without siege mode somebody is going to get the bright idea to park a scorp 150+km away. Add in a well timed bump and you'll get a nice insurance payout.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 03:59:00 - [14] They park scorps 150KM away constantly, I just scoop drones, de-aggro. I don't believe from the time machariel arrives on grid, to being bumped 30km, can take less than 60secs. Unless by sheer LUCK, It arrives at perfect angle, gets a perfect bump (instead of the ones where you go through target ship) and bumps me at a speed which keeps me above a 500m/s average for 60s.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.05.10 04:19:00 - [15] I don't see how this is overpowered. You do less dps than a battleship while being totally suck near a station. I guess it might work well against like... bored pirates who see a cap camping a station. So I guess it's a decent bait ship. People who can actually kill you probably don't care, giving an impressive illusion of safety.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.10 05:19:00 - [16] So, I guess there is going to be another station camping nurf in the works? Because cheap deaggro setups on capitals require so much skill. . . ----
Lt Angus Caldari Wicked Crew	Posted - 2008.05.10 08:54:00 - [17] Edited by: Lt Angus on 10/05/2008 08:56:25 Yea great setup, worse than a thanatos in every way and twice the price, and sentrys very very commonly launch outside scoop range on a moros Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Kissapasi Kissapasi Corporation Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.10 09:26:00 - [18] Already been posted & discussed
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.10 09:31:00 - [19] Edited by: joshmorris on 10/05/2008 09:34:37 Lol your cool, But yeah it is sorta bad. I mean 10k hp on sentrys and you rr them ? You also forget to mention that dont you have a alt in a zealot dealing out some of the dps at times (while you rr him)? Uber idea solves all !!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.10 09:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 10/05/2008 08:56:25 Yea great setup, worse than a thanatos in every way and twice the price, and sentrys very very commonly launch outside scoop range on a moros 5x Moros bonussed ogre IIs, clocks in at 1109 dps at peak. 15 Ogre IIs on a Thanatos is 950. (And you need highs filled with drone control units to do this). The Moros outdamages a carrier when using drones. It outdamages 'non thanatos' carriers, when they're using 10 fighters. It outdamages the other dreadnoughts by a large margin too, when they're not in siege. shrug. If you're wanting to use drones (and lets face it, fighters suck for smaller targets) the Moros is better at it than anything else. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.10 10:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 10/05/2008 10:11:46 Perhaps you might consider taking out 1 CCC rig and putting in a sentry damage rig? Or some of the cap rechargers for omnidirectional tracking links? Also, since you're not in siege, you could also drop the sensor booster and get someone to remote boost you. Also, perhaps the same person could use a tracking link on your sentries? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 15:07:00 - [22] Edited by: Alindyar on 10/05/2008 15:13:55 Edited by: Alindyar on 10/05/2008 15:08:03 Edited by: Alindyar on 10/05/2008 15:07:20 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 10/05/2008 08:56:25 Yea great setup, worse than a thanatos in every way and twice the price, and sentrys very very commonly launch outside scoop range on a moros 5x Moros bonussed ogre IIs, clocks in at 1109 dps at peak. 15 Ogre IIs on a Thanatos is 950. (And you need highs filled with drone control units to do this). The Moros outdamages a carrier when using drones. It outdamages 'non thanatos' carriers, when they're using 10 fighters. It outdamages the other dreadnoughts by a large margin too, when they're not in siege. shrug. If you're wanting to use drones (and lets face it, fighters suck for smaller targets) the Moros is better at it than anything else. Precisely, the Moros can't launch multiple waves(only 4 in comparison to dozens) but why would it need to when it can keep its drones alive ALOT easier than a Thanatos (More drones, harder to micro-manange and not as much HP to work with). Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 10/05/2008 10:11:46 Perhaps you might consider taking out 1 CCC rig and putting in a sentry damage rig? Or some of the cap rechargers for omnidirectional tracking links? Also, since you're not in siege, you could also drop the sensor booster and get someone to remote boost you. Also, perhaps the same person could use a tracking link on your sentries? This is for solo, which is my point, this makes a very good solo camping ship (also better than any other capital). Originally by: Kissapasi Already been posted & discussed I had seen that thread after I posted mine just to check if it had been discussed before, however that thread afaik was theory, im actually using this practically and it works. Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 10/05/2008 09:34:37 Lol your cool, But yeah it is sorta bad. I mean 10k hp on sentrys and you rr them ? You also forget to mention that dont you have a alt in a zealot dealing out some of the dps at times (while you rr him)? The zealot is a friend rather than an alt, for the majority of the time hes not online so its irrelavent.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.05.10 15:15:00 - [23] How on earth do you solo camp a station without a web? Even with 1000 odd dps most people will manage to redock in time. - Violence isn't the answer, it is the question. The answer is yes.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 15:18:00 - [24] Edited by: Alindyar on 10/05/2008 15:18:29 Originally by: Kehmor How on earth do you solo camp a station without a web? Even with 1000 odd dps most people will manage to redock in time. They're in docking range the whole time. Its working out at about 400mil/damage every 5hours of people who let themselves die. This isn't about people who are stupid enough to let themselves die, its the fact they can't do anything about it. So they pull out a 7 racial rook/falcon. I dock for 10mins, they get bored and go back to do whatever they were doing.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.10 15:53:00 - [25] Sweet. Evemon informs me that I have two combat alts who could use that exact same setup in under two months training time. Wooo for biting the bullet and pretraining all my capital support skills up to snuff instead of training for the dread first. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.10 17:06:00 - [26] Been complaining about this dread with a built-in support fleet more than a year ago, but noone cared. It's wrong that a dread is ueber against smaller targets, that's not what dreads are good for - or other dreads should be given this too. Hope this now becomes a boom, everyone and his dog will use it, so that ccp will nerf it even before the start of factional warfare. Gallentes are overpowered enuff, don't need such extra toys that are out of line with the other factions counterparts.
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.05.10 17:49:00 - [27] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba It's wrong that a dread is ueber against smaller targets, that's not what dreads are good for - or other dreads should be given this too. The actual capital weapon damage of a Moros is fairly low since, unless it's getting hot-dropped right onto another capital ship, it needs to fit capital rails. And if it fits capital blasters it does excellent damage at point blank range, which is a bad combo on such a large, slow ship. The damage bonus to drones helps offset both of these facts; if you take it away without somehow supplementing it's capital weapon damage you'd gimp it relative to the other dreads. Besides, if I were in a battleship I'd be much more concerned about a TP-equipped/supported Phoenix camping a station than a Moros. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.10 18:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Been complaining about this dread with a built-in support fleet more than a year ago, but noone cared. It's wrong that a dread is ueber against smaller targets, that's not what dreads are good for - or other dreads should be given this too. Hope this now becomes a boom, everyone and his dog will use it, so that ccp will nerf it even before the start of factional warfare. Gallentes are overpowered enuff, don't need such extra toys that are out of line with the other factions counterparts. I agree with everything you say appart from your last sentence. So you fail. Uber idea solves all !!
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.05.10 19:11:00 - [29] By my maths it'll only manage 1000DPS with drones if you have Dreadnought 5 trained in which case i say good luck to ya. With Garde II's and a sentry damage mod it " Only" does 990 or so with Dreadnought 4. That is epically funny tho, and tbh anyone who cant get themselves docked before they get killed by that thing probably deserves to get slapped. Unless people are actually seriously trying to fight a Dreadnought thats parked on a station without a cap fleet of their own. In which case they still deserve to get slapped.
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.10 19:20:00 - [30] Edited by: Commoner on 10/05/2008 19:22:21 Edited by: Commoner on 10/05/2008 19:20:32 Edited by: Commoner on 10/05/2008 19:20:05 I can attest the fact that the setup Alindyar is using is indeed very powerful. The thing is, that you can often lock cruisers/industrials entering this said station before they dock and instant pop them with a volley from the sentries he's launching. (warp to 0 sometimes land you 2.5km's off station). Got a hit for 500 dmg on my scorpion (on shield). See you soon Alindyar, my Anti-Moros scorp is ready :P The worst pvp'er in EVE :
Sweet Pea	Posted - 2008.05.10 19:33:00 - [31] The ship isn't overpowered. You need to fit rails to shoot anything larger then a small POS, unless you drop right on top of your target for blaster work. He's also station camping, letting him run that no tank setup safely. A 15 man carrier gank squad will waste him in less then 60 seconds since he has no tank. Bump him off station and a Blasterthron will own him. The drone bonus is from the day this ship was able to field 35 heavy drones (before the drone lag reduction). DPS wise this ship is very simalar to other dreads, and it fits with the gallente warfare theory (blasters and drones). You nerf the drones you just killed the ship for what its design purpose is.
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.10 19:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Sweet Pea The ship isn't overpowered. You need to fit rails to shoot anything larger then a small POS, unless you drop right on top of your target for blaster work. He's also station camping, letting him run that no tank setup safely. A 15 man carrier gank squad will waste him in less then 60 seconds since he has no tank. Bump him off station and a Blasterthron will own him. The drone bonus is from the day this ship was able to field 35 heavy drones (before the drone lag reduction). DPS wise this ship is very simalar to other dreads, and it fits with the gallente warfare theory (blasters and drones). You nerf the drones you just killed the ship for what its design purpose is. Alindyar actually adressed the bumping, this Amarr station have a huge docking range, so the bumping thing won't work in this particular situation. (I've seen him being bumped when him and another carrier undocked at the same time, he managed to redock even though his dread was flying as fast as a MWDing frigate) The worst pvp'er in EVE :
Sweet Pea	Posted - 2008.05.10 19:52:00 - [33] Then the problem isn't the ship, its the docking/aggro mechanics. For if his ship were unable to redock he would be toast. Nerfing the ship due to a pilots ability to exploit the docking/aggro mechanic is not fixing a problem, its creating a whole new one.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 20:47:00 - [34] Originally by: fkingfurious By my maths it'll only manage 1000DPS with drones if you have Dreadnought 5 trained in which case i say good luck to ya. With Garde II's and a sentry damage mod it " Only" does 990 or so with Dreadnought 4. That is epically funny tho, and tbh anyone who cant get themselves docked before they get killed by that thing probably deserves to get slapped. Unless people are actually seriously trying to fight a Dreadnought thats parked on a station without a cap fleet of their own. In which case they still deserve to get slapped. I have dreadnought 5, actual dps is 1025.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.10 21:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Sweet Pea The ship isn't overpowered. You need to fit rails to shoot anything larger then a small POS, unless you drop right on top of your target for blaster work. He's also station camping, letting him run that no tank setup safely. A 15 man carrier gank squad will waste him in less then 60 seconds since he has no tank. Bump him off station and a Blasterthron will own him. The drone bonus is from the day this ship was able to field 35 heavy drones (before the drone lag reduction). DPS wise this ship is very simalar to other dreads, and it fits with the gallente warfare theory (blasters and drones). You nerf the drones you just killed the ship for what its design purpose is. I think it's well overpowered. It's a dread, yet it can kill anything from a frigate up to other caps. It's even more effective against small targets than some battelships (such as the torp raven), while being deadly to other caps compared to that battelships. Other dreads can't do that. It's the i-win button, the one-man-dread+support-boat. Remember the discussion about the "swiss army knife of eve" ? Devs wanted to nerf carriers because they had so many roles. The moros is exactly that. And this insane drone bonus is not only good for station undock games. If you for example have a cap ship fight and lose your support fleet to the enemies support fleet or to a Doomsday or to whatever, any dread is helpless against smaller ships / tacklers, while the moros can still easy kill the enemies support, while dealing the main damage on primary caps/pos. There shouldn't be such multiple role covering i-win buttons or swiss army knifes, expecially not if it's limited to only one race while all the others don't have such a tool. Ofc. it's wrong to just take away that drone bonus without a replacement, instead it should be traded for a railgun damagebonus or something alike, that will bring it in line with other dreads.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.10 21:33:00 - [36] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Sweet Pea The ship isn't overpowered. You need to fit rails to shoot anything larger then a small POS, unless you drop right on top of your target for blaster work. He's also station camping, letting him run that no tank setup safely. A 15 man carrier gank squad will waste him in less then 60 seconds since he has no tank. Bump him off station and a Blasterthron will own him. The drone bonus is from the day this ship was able to field 35 heavy drones (before the drone lag reduction). DPS wise this ship is very simalar to other dreads, and it fits with the gallente warfare theory (blasters and drones). You nerf the drones you just killed the ship for what its design purpose is. I think it's well overpowered. It's a dread, yet it can kill anything from a frigate up to other caps. It's even more effective against small targets than some battelships (such as the torp raven), while being deadly to other caps compared to that battelships. Other dreads can't do that. It's the i-win button, the one-man-dread+support-boat. Remember the discussion about the "swiss army knife of eve" ? Devs wanted to nerf carriers because they had so many roles. The moros is exactly that. And this insane drone bonus is not only good for station undock games. If you for example have a cap ship fight and lose your support fleet to the enemies support fleet or to a Doomsday or to whatever, any dread is helpless against smaller ships / tacklers, while the moros can still easy kill the enemies support, while dealing the main damage on primary caps/pos. There shouldn't be such multiple role covering i-win buttons or swiss army knifes, expecially not if it's limited to only one race while all the others don't have such a tool. Ofc. it's wrong to just take away that drone bonus without a replacement, instead it should be traded for a railgun damagebonus or something alike, that will bring it in line with other dreads. I disagree, however, im not trying to be bias here. Leave the drone DMG bonus, replace the drone HP bonus with something else. Without the HP bonus its almost impossible to camp like this.
Theochrista Petronella	Posted - 2008.05.11 08:06:00 - [37] lol
TimMc Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.11 09:07:00 - [38] Crap setup. The real problem is dock ranges.
Polkageist Minmatar The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.11 15:44:00 - [39] dock range should be fixed first, then maybe some skilled pilots will get their glory!
Sharp Feather Gallente Ministry of Natural Resources	Posted - 2008.05.11 17:23:00 - [40] Ah yeah, I forgot to say, to all the morons that said; ''Oh noes, that setup do as much dps as a megathron, you fail, im so clever''. Well you forgot about the fact that mega doesnt have 156 250 shield, 187 500 armor hitpoints and thats whitout skills and fitting... so yeah you can do that 1500 dps for a LOOOOOONG time....thats mean you can take over multiple target a lot easier. Think with your head. /facepalm
Hellspawn666 Minmatar Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.05.11 17:34:00 - [41] Surely the problem here is that stations are screwed up rather then the ship itself. Since this particular setup would go down insanly fast to any resemble bs fleet and to one dread very fast also... Not to mention its locking speed isnt exactly fantastic ever with an SS sensor booster, so most things will be able to redock long before. It seems an archon would do better in this situation since im assuming this setup isnt solo or your gonna have trouble killing anything undocking in time due to your lock speed. Moros is balanced in the fact for high damage you really have to use ions which is pretty hard to fit a good tank with and fit a web which you need or any capital will get out of range in time. Meaning your tank gets nurfed which plus the high cap use of the guns means your tank aint so great. Admitally it is the best dread solo against support ships but i would prefer a phoenix with a rapier anytime :P since that will instant pop any support ship. So what really needs addressing is docking ranges, some stations have insane ranges which is too powerful and makes it far too easy for deagro, whereas overs have dock ranges which mean in a capital your 4km off by the time youve undocked making you mince meat to anyone who uncloaks outside. I would like to see a universal dock range plus a dock range that is shown since atm 0m from station could look like your ages off the station.
Hellspawn666 Minmatar Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.05.11 17:39:00 - [42] Not to mention if this setup was really that fantastic i hardly think this guy would be posting it on the forums, personally i think it means camping for years to get a chance at a few kills since 90% of people will redock easily in time unless your in say an indy. This thread is just an opportunity for people who have been taken on a moros at close range and suppried when they got owned.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.11 17:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Hellspawn666 90% of people will redock easily in time unless your in say an indy Did you take a poll? Did you conduct a survey? Did you observe over 1000 moros station ganks? No? Then don't make up numbers. Thanks. Astro
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.11 17:58:00 - [44] Edited by: Alindyar on 11/05/2008 17:59:43 Originally by: Hellspawn666 Surely the problem here is that stations are screwed up rather then the ship itself. Since this particular setup would go down insanly fast to any resemble bs fleet and to one dread very fast also... Not to mention its locking speed isnt exactly fantastic ever with an SS sensor booster, so most things will be able to redock long before. It seems an archon would do better in this situation since im assuming this setup isnt solo or your gonna have trouble killing anything undocking in time due to your lock speed. Moros is balanced in the fact for high damage you really have to use ions which is pretty hard to fit a good tank with and fit a web which you need or any capital will get out of range in time. Meaning your tank gets nurfed which plus the high cap use of the guns means your tank aint so great. Admitally it is the best dread solo against support ships but i would prefer a phoenix with a rapier anytime :P since that will instant pop any support ship. So what really needs addressing is docking ranges, some stations have insane ranges which is too powerful and makes it far too easy for deagro, whereas overs have dock ranges which mean in a capital your 4km off by the time youve undocked making you mince meat to anyone who uncloaks outside. I would like to see a universal dock range plus a dock range that is shown since atm 0m from station could look like your ages off the station. Assuming I never turn on my local repairer. You need 16,666 dps to kill me before I can dock. Phoenix + Rapier is a 600second dedication to a kill. My moros requires 1/10th of that.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.11 18:28:00 - [45] Edited by: Nyphur on 11/05/2008 18:31:24 A certain magician would disagree with you. To clarify, the first moros kill was with his siege module and the second was when we managed to bump him out of dock range. I think it's perfectly plausible to bump a dread out of dock range within 60 seconds. It's pretty good but it's not invinceable. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.11 19:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 11/05/2008 18:31:24 A certain magician would disagree with you. To clarify, the first moros kill was with his siege module and the second was when we managed to bump him out of dock range. I think it's perfectly plausible to bump a dread out of dock range within 60 seconds. It's pretty good but it's not invinceable. But what about two or even three camping the station? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
AnKahn Caldari Occassus Republica Legio Mithras	Posted - 2008.05.11 19:55:00 - [47] Some things never change. Most get bored griefing GM. You have to respect his isk making ability. Anyone have an audio on him? Just curious.
Akat Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:47:00 - [48] If that ship with that setup got knocked off station, it would die in a god damned fire. If it has not already happened, bet you balls it will. The moros, in an of itself is perfectly fine even if it can serve a different purpose than than the other dreads. Sure, out of siege mode it has an impressive amount of damage with drones, but drones are killable especially under sentry fire. Also: If in a situation that requires siege mode, you can only lock 2 targets. Any ship that decides to stick around long enough for a sieged moros to lock it, deserves the swarm of angry bees that are coming to them. Phoenix is just as lethal in a similar situation, fyi. Each dread has its own benefits. Perhaps you think we should nerf all versatility?
Jessica Kreer	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:47:00 - [49] Make drone damage bonus in-siege only. Solves the issue entirely.
Akat Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Sweet Pea Then the problem isn't the ship, its the docking/aggro mechanics. For if his ship were unable to redock he would be toast. Nerfing the ship due to a pilots ability to exploit the docking/aggro mechanic is not fixing a problem, its creating a whole new one. For truth. Certain station like in this case and the gallente outpost (which is freaking huge) have ridiculous docking ranges. In other cases, staions like 2nd station amarr have noticably small size and immediatley launch you out of docking range...
Ivan Kinsikor Amarr Void Engineers	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:45:00 - [51] Originally by: Sweet Pea Then the problem isn't the ship, its the docking/aggro mechanics. For if his ship were unable to redock he would be toast. Nerfing the ship due to a pilots ability to exploit the docking/aggro mechanic is not fixing a problem, its creating a whole new one. ^^^^ This Docking mechanics need to be changed badly. ---------------------------------------- *****es don't know 'bout my nano'd Titan ----------------------------------------
Dalseta Volitare	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Alindyar Edited by: Alindyar on 10/05/2008 00:29:27 Recently, I've been camping with a Moros (Lame, smack me w/e)... However, the problem is... It works, and it works VERY well. First off this is nothing new, there are many Gank Moros' in eve these days. And it's not overpowered, it's just overpowered when it's moros vs <insert not a capital ship here> If you bring in one piece of e-war / 4 or 5 guys. Dead Morros. Or if they hot drop their own caps on you, with a fit like that you'll be dead in a minute.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:38:00 - [53] Originally by: AnKahn Some things never change. Most get bored griefing GM. You have to respect his isk making ability. Actually, ginger magician got permabanned a long time ago. He'd already weasled his way out of a previous permaban so this time it stuck. And I have no respect for his isk-making ability because all he did was exploit his corpmates. They camped the rancer gate (an estimated 1b a day in loot comes through there) and paid for their own ships and ginger magician always kept all the loot for himself. Rumour has it he's the CEO of some big company in real life and hired people to play eve with him and be his friends. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:41:00 - [54] I dont get it. How can it be overpowered in PVP when pvp doesnt really happen, very much, on station undocks. Far more happens at gates, belts, and at moons with starbases. A ship that can only be used in one part of one grid is useless. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:51:00 - [55] Edited by: Amastat on 11/05/2008 23:53:04 Edited by: Amastat on 11/05/2008 23:52:45 Moros is only ever 'overpowered' against sub-capitals, and/or other capitals if it actually gets in range with blasters. All it takes to seriously ** over a Moros is to bait it into siege mode, then have a ship that can speed tank or w/e orbit with points on the Moros, or just drop a dictor bubble. Then you have a few phoenix's jump into grid 100+km out, go into siege mode, then slam the Moros with a wall of citadel torps. I Don't think a gank-fit Moros is going to be able pretty much anything at all when its fitted with blasters and it has a phoenix's or other ranged dreads nuking it at long range, and the Moros can't warp and most certainly can't go 100km at sub-light and fight its way out. The biggest vulnerability is range - the Moros cannot go fast enough to intercept the snipers on sub-light engines. So - even though it can ***small ships and makes a good gatecamp dread, it will need support unless you want to risk this happening to your Moros. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:05:00 - [56] Originally by: Amastat All it takes to seriously **** over a Moros is to bait it into siege mode, then have a ship that can speed tank or w/e orbit with points on the Moros, or just drop a dictor bubble. Then you have a few phoenix's jump into grid 100+km out, go into siege mode, then slam the Moros with a wall of citadel torps. You've never fought a dreadnought before, have you? Dreadnoughts in siege mode are immune to warp scrambling but they can't warp or jump when in siege mode anyway. There's no need for scramblers or interdictors at all. Additionally, the original poster said he doesn't even fit a siege module. To kill him, you'd need to do one of three things: 1) Bump him off the docking range and kill him. 2) Goad him into attacking and gank him within 60 seconds 3) Make his game crash and kill him. I included number 3 just to point out that while it may not be possible to MAKE his game crash, you can certainly take advantage of it should it happen naturally. #1 is going to be difficult with the station he camps because of its bugged docking range. #2 would require at least 5-6 sieging dreadnoughts and preferably a battleship or two with neuts. It is indeed very hard to legitimately kill a dreadnought that's on the docking ring unless he makes a mistake or you've got a large enough force to throw at it. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:11:00 - [57] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Amastat All it takes to seriously ** over a Moros is to bait it into siege mode, then have a ship that can speed tank or w/e orbit with points on the Moros, or just drop a dictor bubble. Then you have a few phoenix's jump into grid 100+km out, go into siege mode, then slam the Moros with a wall of citadel torps. You've never fought a dreadnought before, have you? Dreadnoughts in siege mode are immune to warp scrambling but they can't warp or jump when in siege mode anyway. There's no need for scramblers or interdictors at all. Additionally, the original poster said he doesn't even fit a siege module. To kill him, you'd need to do one of three things: 1) Bump him off the docking range and kill him. 2) Goad him into attacking and gank him within 60 seconds 3) Make his game crash and kill him. I included number 3 just to point out that while it may not be possible to MAKE his game crash, you can certainly take advantage of it should it happen naturally. #1 is going to be difficult with the station he camps because of its bugged docking range. #2 would require at least 5-6 sieging dreadnoughts and preferably a battleship or two with neuts. It is indeed very hard to legitimately kill a dreadnought that's on the docking ring unless he makes a mistake or you've got a large enough force to throw at it. Trolls If he's not in siege you scramble the dread so he doesn't have a option to warp back in on-top of the sniper dreads. If he's in siege, then you don't really have a problem since he can't even move.. or align, or warp**. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:20:00 - [58] I am not a big fun of any capitals at all, but I have to recognize that the problem here is not the moros. The problem is the station aggro timer, which is a problem in SEVERAL other situations. Just make people unable to dock for 15 min after they aggro and the problem is solved. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:27:00 - [59] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Just make capital ships bar the supercapitals unable to dock for 5 min after they aggro and the problem is solved. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Hellspawn666 Minmatar Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:32:00 - [60] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Hellspawn666 90% of people will redock easily in time unless your in say an indy Did you take a poll? Did you conduct a survey? Did you observe over 1000 moros station ganks? No? Then don't make up numbers. Thanks. Astro 1.) I didnt take a poll i said 90% as a rough estimate and a poll wouldnt tell you anything but opionin surely? which given the ammount of forum smacking alts wouldnt tell you anything. 2/3.)I didnt conduct a survey i simply used the figure 90% of people would redock to exemplify the fact that if you go to station in a large ship somebody undocks in dock range(who is not lagged out)and start locking him, unless hes an idiot hes not going to sit in dock range and die is he? Nor is he going to agro himself so all you can do (assuming you can lock him fast enough to stop him warping) is keep him docked at best. So how about you address my points rather then simply suggesting im trying to prove somthing with statistics which wasnt at all the point.
Hellspawn666 Minmatar Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:35:00 - [61] Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you, as someone said further up in this thread, just because the setup isnt ganked doesnt mean its successful. When im shown a bunch of successful kills with this setup ill believe its as pwn and overpowered as they are making it out to be. Personally i think its the work of people who dislike the drone damage since they think anything smaller then a dread should be invulerble to one....
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:38:00 - [62] Originally by: Amastat Trolls If he's not in siege you scramble the dread so he doesn't have a option to warp back in on-top of the sniper dreads. If he's in siege, then you don't really have a problem since he can't even move.. or align, or warp. You can't just undercut my argument by calling me a troll. Well, you can but it doesn't improve your debating position at all and looks quite petty. You aren't considering the situation the original poster presented. He camps a station in his Moros and when threatened by anything he has the option of docking. At any time, he can disengage and wait out the 60-second aggression timer before he can redock. The only way to actually kill him is to kill him within those 60 seconds or bump him outside docking range within them. It doesn't matter if you have a souple of sniper phoenixes, it doesn't change anything as he'll just wait 60 seconds and dock. As I SAID, you'll need 5-6 sieging dreads to eat through all of his hitpoints within 60 seconds and if you can spare a few battleships to neutralise as much of his capacitor as they can, that will decrease his repair ability. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.12 03:51:00 - [63] Edited by: Alindyar on 12/05/2008 03:58:04 Originally by: Hellspawn666 Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you, as someone said further up in this thread, just because the setup isnt ganked doesnt mean its successful. When im shown a bunch of successful kills with this setup ill believe its as pwn and overpowered as they are making it out to be. Personally i think its the work of people who dislike the drone damage since they think anything smaller then a dread should be invulerble to one.... (Sorry for mass spam but you did ask to see...) 2008.05.07 17:38:00 Victim: * Alliance: Bedlam Consortium Corp: Emergent Chaos Destroyed: Falcon System: * Security: 0.1 Damage Taken: 3651 Involved parties: Name: Alindyar (laid the final blow) Security: -8.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: The Golden Goat Ship: Moros Weapon: Warden II Damage Done: 3651 Destroyed items: ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Phase Inverter II (Cargo) Heavy Missile Launcher II ECM - White Noise Generator II (Cargo) Signal Distortion Amplifier II, Qty: 2 ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II (Cargo) Particle Dispersion Augmentor I, Qty: 2 Warp Disruptor II (Cargo) Type-D Altered SS Overdrive Injector (Cargo) Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile, Qty: 120 (Cargo) ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Qty: 2 (Cargo) Sensor Booster II Antimatter Charge S, Qty: 40 150mm Railgun I Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile, Qty: 39 Sensor Booster II, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Antimatter Charge S, Qty: 210 (Cargo) Dropped items: Targeting Range (Cargo) ECM - Ion Field Projector II, Qty: 5 ECM - Phase Inverter II, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Heavy Missile Launcher II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II, Qty: 4 (Cargo) Signal Amplifier II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Qty: 2 (Cargo) Scan Resolution Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile, Qty: 120 (Cargo) Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile, Qty: 39 2008.05.05 13:24:00 Victim: * Alliance: Omega Alliance Corp: Stargate Universe Destroyed: Absolution System: * Security: 0.1 Damage Taken: 15487 Involved parties: Name: Alindyar (laid the final blow) Security: -4.6 Alliance: NONE Corp: The Golden Goat Ship: Moros Weapon: Garde II Damage Done: 15487 Destroyed items: Heavy Pulse Laser II, Qty: 5 Medium Capacitor Booster II Conflagration M, Qty: 11 (Cargo) Damage Control II Warp Disruptor II Scorch M, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Heat Sink II Heavy Assault Missile Specialization (Cargo) Medium Energy Neutralizer II Cap Booster 800 Radio M, Qty: 3 Drone Sharpshooting (Cargo) Capacitor Control Circuit I, Qty: 2 Dropped items: Drone Navigation (Cargo) Heavy Pulse Laser II Exotic Dancers (Cargo) Conflagration M, Qty: 7 (Cargo) Stasis Webifier II Scorch M, Qty: 3 (Cargo) Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Thermic Hardener II Radio M, Qty: 3 Multifrequency M, Qty: 6 (Cargo) Cap Booster 800, Qty: 9 (Cargo) Medium Armor Repairer II, Qty: 2 2008.05.03 20:36:00 Victim: * Alliance: Legion of Honor Corp: Unity of Honor Destroyed: Hyperion System: * Security: 0.1 Damage Taken: 31419 Involved parties: Name: Alindyar (laid the final blow) Security: -2.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: The Golden Goat Ship: Moros Weapon: Berserker II Damage Done: 17682 Name: Amarr Sentry Gun / Royal Khanid Navy Damage Done: 13737 Destroyed items: Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Qty: 4 Anti-EM Pump I Cap Booster 800, Qty: 16 (Cargo) Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Armor Repairer II Cap Booster 800, Qty: 4 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Vespa II, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II, Qty: 2 Cap Recharger II Void L, Qty: 148 Heavy Capacitor Booster I Anti-Thermic Pump I Dropped items: Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Qty: 4 Void L, Qty: 3187 (Cargo) Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I, Qty: 3 (Drone Bay) Enough?
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.12 03:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Amastat Trolls If he's not in siege you scramble the dread so he doesn't have a option to warp back in on-top of the sniper dreads. If he's in siege, then you don't really have a problem since he can't even move.. or align, or warp. You can't just undercut my argument by calling me a troll. Well, you can but it doesn't improve your debating position at all and looks quite petty. You aren't considering the situation the original poster presented. He camps a station in his Moros and when threatened by anything he has the option of docking. At any time, he can disengage and wait out the 60-second aggression timer before he can redock. The only way to actually kill him is to kill him within those 60 seconds or bump him outside docking range within them. It doesn't matter if you have a souple of sniper phoenixes, it doesn't change anything as he'll just wait 60 seconds and dock. As I SAID, you'll need 5-6 sieging dreads to eat through all of his hitpoints within 60 seconds and if you can spare a few battleships to neutralise as much of his capacitor as they can, that will decrease his repair ability. I have 191 second recharge rate. Assuming im only running my local repper (not the remote reps) you need 34 Heavy Unstable Neuts. THIRTY FOUR Heavy Unstable Neuts + Local rep takes 19minutes to cap dead this setup.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.05.12 04:26:00 - [65] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/05/2008 04:26:36 As I said and say again, just make it so people can't redock for 15 min after aggroing. I am pretty sure that in 15 your Moros will die an horrible death... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
ceyriot Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.12 05:10:00 - [66] Its not 15 minutes in 0.0 mate... Faction Store - Killboard
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.12 05:32:00 - [67] Originally by: Hellspawn666 Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you So I could lay claim to a low sec station with only 3 Moros? Thats quite an interesting situation if said station has some useful agents or manufactoring/research slots. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Wardeneo Gallente BLL Wise Guys	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:32:00 - [68] Originally by: easei Amarr stations have a 30KM docking range so being bumped off is pretty much not going to happen. NERF AMMAR STATIONS :P o/j :) wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:39:00 - [69] Originally by: Sweet Pea Then the problem isn't the ship, its the docking/aggro mechanics. For if his ship were unable to redock he would be toast. Nerfing the ship due to a pilots ability to exploit the docking/aggro mechanic is not fixing a problem, its creating a whole new one. This. Far too much fighting around lowsec / 0.0 NPC stations consists of sitting trimarked battleships or capitals on the station with remote repair modules, and wiping out anything nearby. It breaks the risk/reward model of EVE such ships can attack with virtually no risk to themselves. On some station models it's not even possible to bump ships at all if they're in a specific place, let alone get on grid and bump them within a 60 second window. Aggro timers need to vary based on ship size, ideally with them increasing further based on proximity to the station at the time of the offense. It would also be nice to see a variation in NPC sentry guns in the same vein as starbase guns, with different DPS / tracking for killing different size targets more effectively.
Alindyar The Golden Goat	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:38:00 - [70] Like I said in my original post, I do believe this should be fixed. However I am unsure as to how the mechanics can be changed to address this. Dock range is an option... But would changing on dock range on 100% of stations effect the game too badly.
MysteriousJade	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:56:00 - [71] Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Originally by: Sweet Pea Then the problem isn't the ship, its the docking/aggro mechanics. For if his ship were unable to redock he would be toast. Nerfing the ship due to a pilots ability to exploit the docking/aggro mechanic is not fixing a problem, its creating a whole new one. ^^^^ This Docking mechanics need to be changed badly. sry but you both are wrong. as long as small tiny ships (in comparison to the size of a dread) can bump it without being damaged/destroyed (because of the impact) noone should change the dockingrange. the problem is the dread, not the dockingrange.
Sweet Pea	Posted - 2008.05.12 13:43:00 - [72] The dicussion here is about trying to find a risk vs reward that is suitable. As far as Dread vs Dread combat the Moros is balanced. If you compare the Moros versus other dreads in effectiveness against smaller targets it probably would rank near the top of that list (Phoenix coming in a close second). Problem most don't realize is that with lvl 5 skills and no sensor booster the Moros takes 30-45 seconds to lock anything. Nerfing a Dread that is very well balanced it not the answer. Make it where engaging a target while you are within 3000m of dock range isn't possible. Solves the problem of a Moros deaggroing and docking in 60 seconds. Since the ship does about 87m/s the ship would have to travel 35 seconds at max speed to reach dock range (and the small issue of acceleration that takes forever). Plenty of time for a nano-domi to bump him off and get a web on him. Would prevent alot of griefers from sitting smack dab in the middle of the station getting risk free kills.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.12 14:03:00 - [73] Yeah, by the time you managed to bump him off station with lets say, 3 'nano' battleships, he probably would have slaughtered them all. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Wardeneo Gallente BLL Wise Guys	Posted - 2008.05.12 14:33:00 - [74] is it just me or does this thread sound r.e.t.a.r.d.e.d??? the reason i say this is because y would you ask to nerf a ship that u fly and that is good? all sounds wrong to me ^^ wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Wardeneo is it just me or does this thread sound r.e.t.a.r.d.e.d??? the reason i say this is because y would you ask to nerf a ship that u fly and that is good? all sounds wrong to me ^^ wardeneo I can't tell what the motivation is really. The Moros is unique among the dreds in that it is actually a credible threat to smaller ships thanks to it's drone damage bonus. On the other hand, given the tiny population of Eve who can both fly and afford a Moros it doesn't seem to be a problem.
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:26:00 - [76] Edited by: Kusha''an on 12/05/2008 15:27:03 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I think it's well overpowered. It's a dread, yet it can kill anything from a frigate up to other caps. It's even more effective against small targets than some battelships (such as the torp raven), while being deadly to other caps compared to that battelships. Other dreads can't do that. Dude. *It's. A. Dread.* It's supposed to kill all other ships, including other capitals. Have you noticed the skill tree for this ship? Why on earth would somebody spend that much time skilling for something that can't even kill its own counterpart? Can a frig kill another frig? Can a cruiser kill another cruiser? Can a battlecruiser kill another battlecruiser? Can a battleship kill another battleship? If yes, then are they overpowered? ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:31:00 - [77] Originally by: Alindyar I have 191 second recharge rate. Assuming im only running my local repper (not the remote reps) you need 34 Heavy Unstable Neuts. THIRTY FOUR Heavy Unstable Neuts + Local rep takes 19minutes to cap dead this setup. Come to think of it, my own Moros is about the same as it has a massive cap reserve with three semiconductor memory cells. I designed it to specifically fend off neutralisers. And EW won't work against you from anything within sentry drone range because you've got Sentry drones out (presumably set to aggressive) and aggroing you will cause the sentry drones to fire. In dealing with Ginger's station-camping moros we usually had someone use EW from outside his range while we all hapilly went about our business. A cruiser defeating a dreadnought by making him unable to lock any targets is a victory in my books. We only managed to actually kill him because he made mistakes. If the docking range on the station had been reasonably small instead of stupidly massive (which is a confirmed bug BTW), he would have been able to be bumped out within 60 seconds. Instead, we had to rely on goading him into attacking while we bumped him so he would be out of dock range before he realised it. Needless to say, if you don't make the same mistake you can't be killed on a station with a massive dock range. Originally by: arbalesttom Yeah, by the time you managed to bump him off station with lets say, 3 'nano' battleships, he probably would have slaughtered them all. Not at all. When we bumped ginger off the docking ring, we used nano battleships with large shield extenders and had a carrier with remote shield transfers on standby. Also remember that after the battleships collide with the moros, they can dock. We had a constant stream of battleships exiting the station, mwding at him and docking after collision. It was quite beautiful to see it all work and he couldn't even lock any of us before we had docked again :D Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:44:00 - [78] Originally by: Sweet Pea The dicussion here is about trying to find a risk vs reward that is suitable. As far as Dread vs Dread combat the Moros is balanced. If you compare the Moros versus other dreads in effectiveness against smaller targets it probably would rank near the top of that list (Phoenix coming in a close second). Problem most don't realize is that with lvl 5 skills and no sensor booster the Moros takes 30-45 seconds to lock anything. Nerfing a Dread that is very well balanced it not the answer. Make it where engaging a target while you are within 3000m of dock range isn't possible. The general rule with balance changes is to identify the source of the problem and then correct it without affecting the rest of the game in a major way. Prohibiting all combat at stations is a major change that would potentially ruin PvP for a large number of people. Not being able to camp your enemy into a station would ** a lot of people off. Let's do this in a number of logically laid out steps: Step 1: Identify the problem(s): - The moros is operationally invulnerable and still deadly when used to camp a station. Step 2: Identify possible causes: 1- The moros cannot be feasibly killed by a reasonable force within 60 seconds and can redock. 2- The moros can kill other ships with its drones within dock range of the station. 3- The moros cannot be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. 4- The moros is still deadly to smaller ships when not in siege mode. Step 3: Suggest potential solutions that would counter any of the causes (even if they're stupid solutions): 1- Change the moros so that it is easily killed within 60 seconds by a reasonable force. 2- Change the redock timer to give more time to kill it. 2b- Change the redock timer for dreadnoughts only to give more time to kill it. 2c- Change the moros so that it cannot reasonably kill smaller ships with its drones. 2d- Disallow combat within dock range of the station. 3- Change the moros so that it can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. 3b- Change the dock range so that a moros can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. 4- Change the moros so that it cannot kill smaller ships when not in siege mode. Any of those solutions would make the problem disappear but obviously some are stupid, so we need another step. Step 4: Analyse impact of solutions:** We want the strongest logical precondition to our problem, a change that only affects the problem domain. 1- The moros is already balanced with regard to capital-to-capital and capital-to-POS wafare. Making it easier to kill would upset the existing game balance to solve a relatively minor problem. This solution is not viable. 2- Changing the redock timer would be far too big a change to the game. The timer is balanced around sub-capital ships and so to change it for everyone would upset previously established game balance. This solution is not viable. 2b- Changing the redock timer for only dreadnoughts would avoid upsetting subcapital game balance but it would significantly affect capital-gamebalance. In 0.0, capital ships fight gangs of other capital ships and not being able to dock for 15 minutes would significantly affect capit-al-to-capital pvp balance, not to mention annoying people who want to dock but have just jumped home from a battle. This solution is not viable. 2c- Changing the ability of the moros to hit small ships with its drones would certainly solve the problem but it doesn't stop it from killing battleships and stationary ships. This solution isn't complete and is not viable. 2d- As explained earlier, disallowing combat within docking range would significantly harm gameplay by stopping people from camping others in stations. It would also promote sniping from outside docking range, meaning players would still be vulnerable to the moros' railguns if he got a lock. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 16:05:00 - [79] 3- There isn't really any change that can be done to the moros itself to make it so that it can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. Reducing its mass, screwing with its agility or messing withs its top speed would just upset current balance and for that reason, this solution isn't viable. 3b- Changing the dock range so that a moros can be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds would certainly solve the problem. The impact to subcapital PvP would be minimal and the huge dock ranges have already been confirmed as bugs (I filed a bug report). Reducing the dock range to a more reasonable size would solve the problem by making it easier to bump the moros off the docking ring within 60 seconds. This solution is viable. 4- Changing the moros so that it cannot kill smaller ships when not in siege mode would also solve the problem. A dreadnought in siege mode is stuck in place for 10 minutes, which is more than enough time for a reasonable force (5 carriers or so) to kill it. This solution is viable. Step 5: Considering other issues: It's not a good idea to examine a solution in isolation. We have to examine similar problems and the effect our changes have on those. Out of all the solutions, the only two that are viable are changing the drone damage bonus to only work in siege mode or lowering the dock range so that the moros can be bumped off the docking ring within 60 seconds. Although these problems both solve our problem domain, the first solution doesn't address the additional issue of the phoenix dreadnought's ability to deal a lot of damage to battleships when not in siege mode too. The second solution would solve both of these issues and so is the most viable for implementation. Remember though that this solution is only as valid as the problem domain. If the problem itself is shown to be void, this implies that the solution is unneccesary. In that light, I'd like to address two possible sticking-points in the problem identification stage. Step 2 part 1 and 3 make two assumptions that must hold for the problem domain to be correct. If either of these issues is proven incorrect and it's possible to kill a dreadnought despite them, there is no problem to solve. Part 1 assumed that a moros cannot be feasibly killed by a reasonable force within 60 seconds. To prove this, we have to define what a reasonable force is. If 6 dreadnoughts jump in on top of him, and drop into siege mode and start firing, can they kill him within 60 seconds? If 6 dreadnoughts can kill him within 60 seconds and is considered a reasonable force to kill another stationcamping dreadnought (which I think it is), then the problem simply does not exist. All that's occured in that case is that nobody has put together a team of 6-7 dreads to take him down, planted bait for him to shoot and executed their plan. That's up to the players to deal with, not CCP. Step 2 part 3 makes the assumption that a moros cannot be bumped out of dock range within 60 seconds. From memory, we may have actually bumped ginger off the docking ring in Thelan in under 60 seconds. It seemed like a lot more to us but thinking back it was definitely close to 60 seconds and he had definitely docked before when we had tried bumping. Our bumping strategy was in a previous post and was executed with a team of 4-5 battleships, one carrier and some excellent precision. If it's possible to bump him off the docking range within 60 seconds then the problem also does not exist and it's just a matter of nobody having planned and executed a good enough bumping strategy. Again, if this is the case then it's up to the players to solve this problem and not CCP. There's a lot to consider on the issue but that should about cover it. We have two scenarios to prove (that 6-8 dreads can't gank the moros and that he can't be bumped off the station in 60 seconds) and one viable solution that can correct for the problem if those scenarios hold true. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:02:00 - [80] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 12/05/2008 17:02:52 The problem is just the absurd docking ranges since stations got upgraded. You can be 20 km from the docking well, and yet still at '0 m' Fix this and it also fixes a lot of sub-capital station fighting problems. We never used to have such huge docking ranges, so why now? -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:05:00 - [81] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 12/05/2008 17:02:52 The problem is just the absurd docking ranges since stations got upgraded. You can be 20 km from the docking well, and yet still at '0 m' Fix this and it also fixes a lot of sub-capital station fighting problems. We never used to have such huge docking ranges, so why now? I do appreciate not having to spend 10 seconds docking when I decide to go to a station so I guess the change was for convience?
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 12/05/2008 17:02:52 The problem is just the absurd docking ranges since stations got upgraded. You can be 20 km from the docking well, and yet still at '0 m' Fix this and it also fixes a lot of sub-capital station fighting problems. We never used to have such huge docking ranges, so why now? I do appreciate not having to spend 10 seconds docking when I decide to go to a station so I guess the change was for convience? Actually, when you warp to the station you actually warp to the docking range perimeter. Increasing the perimeter by 10km doesn't mean that you'll drop out of warp 10km inside the docking range, just that you'll drop out of warp 10km further from the undock point and station model. Reducing the size of the station dock range doesn't affect normal gameplay. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Kell Braugh	Posted - 2008.05.12 19:03:00 - [83] Originally by: Alindyar They park scorps 150KM away constantly, I just scoop drones, de-aggro. So you run like a little girl.. um-- yeah, nice setup. - EFT screen shots are NOT an accurate example of a ship's abilities.
Zaerlorth Maelkor	Posted - 2008.05.12 19:36:00 - [84] There is nothing wrong with the Moros being able to solo a Battleship. The problem is as many other people have pointed out: Docking range of Amarr stations. ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:11:00 - [85] Originally by: ceyriot Its not 15 minutes in 0.0 mate... Originally by: Etho Demerzel As I said and say again, just make it so people can't redock for 15 min after aggroing. I am pretty sure that in 15 your Moros will die an horrible death... Could you have the decence of reading what you are going to comment about before you post? And to the guys that say that locking people out of the station for 15 min would break game mechanics, I would like to hear a single reasonable motive to back this statement. But you know, there is none... If you undock and shoot people be prepared to commit. This game's main problem at the moment is the ability of pulling out from fights too easily. Be it in stations or in nanoships. Both things must change. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Hellspawn666 Minmatar Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:26:00 - [86] Originally by: Alindyar Edited by: Alindyar on 12/05/2008 03:58:04 Originally by: Hellspawn666 Originally by: Zeba The more people I see in this thread crying emo tears over how awful a setup it is the more I'm convinced that its not. And again what if you had three Moros spidertanking at a station? Then everyone would avoid you, as someone said further up in this thread, just because the setup isnt ganked doesnt mean its successful. When im shown a bunch of successful kills with this setup ill believe its as pwn and overpowered as they are making it out to be. Personally i think its the work of people who dislike the drone damage since they think anything smaller then a dread should be invulerble to one.... (Sorry for mass spam but you did ask to see...) Basically i hardly consider 2 kills all that great for a moros since we dont know how long you were sitting there to get them, when i see stats for the overpowered amount of kills you get ill believe you i suggest you use a killboard which just takes it from our API. Also the hyperion on their could of been killed by just about anything that could tank him for a bit of time and deal like 400 dps so i hardly think your setup is crazy amazing.
Jessica Kreer	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:47:00 - [87] Quote: when i see stats for the overpowered amount of kills you get Heikki is a fairly well-known user of the moros. Close to 400 kills in it, using pretty much only that tactic. Again, i must point out the solution is mind-bendingly obvious. Make the drone damage bonus apply only in siege mode. All the problems suddenly disappear.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:57:00 - [88] Originally by: Jessica Kreer Again, i must point out the solution is mind-bendingly obvious. Make the drone damage bonus apply only in siege mode. All the problems suddenly disappear. In case you missed my post (which was quite big), I explained that your solution is one of only two viable ones but the other viable solution also counters the additional problem of the phoenix doing the same thing to kill battleships without risk. Your solution would work for the moros but it has no real advantages over the alternative and is narrower in problem-solving scope. Contracting the station dock ranges significantly would be a much more elegant solution. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
rgt53 Emergent Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:59:00 - [89] Edited by: rgt53 on 13/05/2008 17:00:04 I have personally seen Alindyar use this moros setup and nearly lost a mega to it, and personally I think the setup is balanced The problem is not that we don't have the damage to take him out as we do, although we don't have enough dps to take him out in under a minute tho. However the fact that we cant get him off station means that we can't destroy this setup and alas that is why it is believed to be overpowered. The only solution that is viable is to fix the true source of the problem and change the docking range of the station, as Nyphur said and explained in detail his previous posts. This is also true in reverse for station where you undock and are already outside dock range, a problem that has gotten worse since the changes to the undock procedure
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:18:00 - [90] By definition, this Moros cannot be overpowered, because the right amount of attacking ships will force it to de-aggro and dock. If it were overpowered, it would be able to continue ganking docking ships and not be forced to change its behavior. Inside dock, however, the Moros is useless. You might as well call any docked ship overpowered. Seems to me the major gripe is that the Moros cannot be killed in 60 seconds or less. Oh Noes!!! It's a dread. It should be able to tank for 60 seconds. Another example of this is nanoships. Are they overpowered? Well, if they can't kill you or if you do them enough damage, they run away. Does that mean they are overpowered? No. They are forced to change their behavior in order to avoid destruction. ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?
Rachel McShane	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:11:00 - [91] Originally by: Kusha'an By definition, this Moros cannot be overpowered, because the right amount of attacking ships will force it to de-aggro and dock. Strictly by your definition then, if it took 500 dreads to force the lone Moros to dock, it still wouldn't be overpowered, since "the right amount" are attacking. I see "overpowered" as a subset of "unbalanced", and let me show you an example. There are four ships, all of which have identical statistics (defense, bonuses, skill reqs, costs, etc.) -- except that one generates 1500 DPS, while the others generate 500 DPS. Would you call that one ship overpowered? Now if that 1500 DPS ship also had one-third the defensive capabilities of the other three, is it still unbalanced? I believe the argument then gets murkier; it enjoys one significant advantage over its peers, but now has a counterbalancing disadvantage. Owing to the current aggression/docking/ship-bonus situation, the Moros appears to enjoy a pretty significant advantage over its peers, with no counterbalancing disadvantage. I'd call that "overpowered".
Kaleeb Gods Unwanted Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:30:00 - [92] /me coughs E-Bay
Ay'Not Sivad Minmatar Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:58:00 - [93] aside from the time i helped kill a thanatos that had just undocked, fitted with cargo expander II's, large shield extender's, and small remote reps, this is the worst fitting i've ever seen on a capital ship. saying ''omg my setup is the pwn'', is like throwing a gorilla on PCP into a cage of rabbits and saying that it was an even fight. you do realize you have a single rep fit(not TOO horrible), you don't have ANY resists(a joke), you're loaded up with more cap rechargers than a remote-repping scorpion(un-needed), and i'm not sure if this is the worst of it, but you're flying a bil isk ship around and IGNORING the gun damage bonus. not to mention that you don't even have a siege module fit. everything about that setup is fail, seriously, i'm sorry, but it's true. would you mind telling me where you camp, because I have a rifter i'm dying to kill a capital ship in(funny thing is, it'd be quite easily possible with your fit)
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:47:00 - [94] Originally by: Ay'Not Sivad Edited by: Ay''Not Sivad on 13/05/2008 20:13:02 aside from the time i helped kill a thanatos that had just undocked, fitted with cargo expander II's, large shield extender's, and small remote reps, this is the worst fitting i've ever seen on a capital ship. saying ''omg my setup is the pwn'', is like throwing a gorilla on PCP into a cage of rabbits and saying that it was an even fight. you do realize you have a single rep fit(not TOO horrible), you don't have ANY resists(a joke), you're loaded up with more cap rechargers than a remote-repping scorpion(un-needed), and i'm not sure if this is the worst of it, but you're flying a bil isk ship around and IGNORING the gun damage bonus. not to mention that you don't even have a siege module fit. everything about that setup is fail, seriously, i'm sorry, but it's true. would you mind telling me where you camp, because I have a rifter i'm dying to kill a capital ship in(funny thing is, it'd be quite easily possible with your fit) edit: btw, you can't post km's on the forums, they'll be removed shortly by a GM. also, those KM's mean nothing, any stupid idiot can lose a non-capital ship to a horrible fit capital ship. i've killed a huginn in a rifter before, as an example(and he was fit pretty well, i just got damn lucky) km's don't mean anything, so don't post them, seriously. I hope to ** you're this is a joke thread because if it isnt you just won the award for " Stipidest Ever Angry Rant Post That Completely Missed the Point and made the Poster Look Like **". Read the post and then have a word with yourself.
Alindyar Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Ay'Not Sivad Edited by: Ay''Not Sivad on 13/05/2008 20:13:02 aside from the time i helped kill a thanatos that had just undocked, fitted with cargo expander II's, large shield extender's, and small remote reps, this is the worst fitting i've ever seen on a capital ship. saying ''omg my setup is the pwn'', is like throwing a gorilla on PCP into a cage of rabbits and saying that it was an even fight. you do realize you have a single rep fit(not TOO horrible), you don't have ANY resists(a joke), you're loaded up with more cap rechargers than a remote-repping scorpion(un-needed), and i'm not sure if this is the worst of it, but you're flying a bil isk ship around and IGNORING the gun damage bonus. not to mention that you don't even have a siege module fit. everything about that setup is fail, seriously, i'm sorry, but it's true. would you mind telling me where you camp, because I have a rifter i'm dying to kill a capital ship in(funny thing is, it'd be quite easily possible with your fit) edit: btw, you can't post km's on the forums, they'll be removed shortly by a GM. also, those KM's mean nothing, any stupid idiot can lose a non-capital ship to a horrible fit capital ship. i've killed a huginn in a rifter before, as an example(and he was fit pretty well, i just got damn lucky) km's don't mean anything, so don't post them, seriously. The previous post asked me too, secondly, you're allowed to post km's if you edit the victims name out - get a clue.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:02:00 - [96] Feck it. I'm still gonna fast track into those two Moros asap with a third in another 2 months after the first two. Of course as soon as I step into them I'm sure CCP will have nerfed the docking range so you can't station hug anymore. Ah well 3 spidertanking dreads that can effectively hit all ship classes with nearly 3000dps combined at level 4 is still worth it. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.13 23:16:00 - [97] Cov-ops for warp in + well positioned dread coming out of warp = oh look you're out of docking range within 60 seconds.
Alindyar Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.13 23:23:00 - [98] Originally by: Thorradin Cov-ops for warp in + well positioned dread coming out of warp = oh look you're out of docking range within 60 seconds. They tried this it doesn't work, warped a phoenix right on top of me, just simply didn't get enough speed.
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.13 23:27:00 - [99] Originally by: Amastat Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Amastat All it takes to seriously ** over a Moros is to bait it into siege mode, then have a ship that can speed tank or w/e orbit with points on the Moros, or just drop a dictor bubble. Then you have a few phoenix's jump into grid 100+km out, go into siege mode, then slam the Moros with a wall of citadel torps. You've never fought a dreadnought before, have you? Dreadnoughts in siege mode are immune to warp scrambling but they can't warp or jump when in siege mode anyway. There's no need for scramblers or interdictors at all. Additionally, the original poster said he doesn't even fit a siege module. To kill him, you'd need to do one of three things: 1) Bump him off the docking range and kill him. 2) Goad him into attacking and gank him within 60 seconds 3) Make his game crash and kill him. I included number 3 just to point out that while it may not be possible to MAKE his game crash, you can certainly take advantage of it should it happen naturally. #1 is going to be difficult with the station he camps because of its bugged docking range. #2 would require at least 5-6 sieging dreadnoughts and preferably a battleship or two with neuts. It is indeed very hard to legitimately kill a dreadnought that's on the docking ring unless he makes a mistake or you've got a large enough force to throw at it. Trolls If he's not in siege you scramble the dread so he doesn't have a option to warp back in on-top of the sniper dreads. If he's in siege, then you don't really have a problem since he can't even move.. or align, or warp**. If he's by himself he won't break another dread's tank regardless.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:20:00 - [100] The problem where camping ships can camp a station from inside docking range and shoot at undocking ships from a point closer to the station than the undocking ships appear is a big one and most of the problem here, it would seem. The Moros probably has too good DPS against smaller targets when not in siege mode, certainly better than other dreads. It's overall DPS however isn't that out of line.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:52:00 - [101] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Sweet Pea The ship isn't overpowered. You need to fit rails to shoot anything larger then a small POS, unless you drop right on top of your target for blaster work. He's also station camping, letting him run that no tank setup safely. A 15 man carrier gank squad will waste him in less then 60 seconds since he has no tank. Bump him off station and a Blasterthron will own him. The drone bonus is from the day this ship was able to field 35 heavy drones (before the drone lag reduction). DPS wise this ship is very simalar to other dreads, and it fits with the gallente warfare theory (blasters and drones). You nerf the drones you just killed the ship for what its design purpose is. I think it's well overpowered. It's a dread, yet it can kill anything from a frigate up to other caps. It's even more effective against small targets than some battelships (such as the torp raven), while being deadly to other caps compared to that battelships. Other dreads can't do that. It's the i-win button, the one-man-dread+support-boat. Remember the discussion about the "swiss army knife of eve" ? Devs wanted to nerf carriers because they had so many roles. The moros is exactly that. And this insane drone bonus is not only good for station undock games. If you for example have a cap ship fight and lose your support fleet to the enemies support fleet or to a Doomsday or to whatever, any dread is helpless against smaller ships / tacklers, while the moros can still easy kill the enemies support, while dealing the main damage on primary caps/pos. There shouldn't be such multiple role covering i-win buttons or swiss army knifes, expecially not if it's limited to only one race while all the others don't have such a tool. Ofc. it's wrong to just take away that drone bonus without a replacement, instead it should be traded for a railgun damagebonus or something alike, that will bring it in line with other dreads. How about reading the in game description of the moros, it's supposed to be the best of the dreads against smaller targets. "Best of" doesn't mean it's all that great against smaller targets though. Drones only do so much, they're not hard to kill. In this situation it's a very expensive ship with a very specialized setup and it good at one thing. What's the problem?
Fofalus Baptism oF Fire	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:56:00 - [102] Just throwing out an idea but what about a plated+shield extender battleship with a cyno gen. I know you can get some crazy bumps with that. Or an conga chain of undocking caps (maybe like 10+ dreads) to bump him off the station. You also have the firepower readily available to kill him then to :D
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.05.14 20:13:00 - [103] This one pwns so much what happens if the other guy has a Moros with blasters and shoots at you rather then your drones and uses his drones just to increase DPS and just pop you? You have a tank and 0 resist increase upgrades.
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:10:00 - [104] Have to admit, a camping moros + an alt in a minnie recon with a couple of webs, a target painter or two, and a couple of buffers to take the edge off of the station guns would be pretty freaking ridiculous. Do target painters help drones? Anyway, with the moros boosting the recon and repairing any drones that get in trouble, this would be pretty crazy - as long as it's at the right station, one that had one of those 30KM docking radiuses. ~X -- TRI RADIO IS CURRENTLY BROKEN! tune in at: http://160.tri-radio.com/ website at: http://triradio.dragonsofredemption.org/ TUNE IN! (KARBOWAIK FIX ZE SERVER!)
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:16:00 - [105] Originally by: Vincent Almasy This one pwns so much what happens if the other guy has a Moros with blasters and shoots at you rather then your drones and uses his drones just to increase DPS and just pop you? You have a tank and 0 resist increase upgrades. Capital Armor rep, I guess. I assume it can keep you alive for 60 seconds, with the HP buffer. Especially if you have Slaves, doubly so for HG Slaves. And even more so if you swap two of the low slot cap mods for one faction version and add a damage control II. DCII on a Moros is like 50,000 more hitpoints or something. -- TRI RADIO IS CURRENTLY BROKEN! tune in at: http://160.tri-radio.com/ website at: http://triradio.dragonsofredemption.org/ TUNE IN! (KARBOWAIK FIX ZE SERVER!)
xenodia Gallente Mortis Incarnatus	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:31:00 - [106] Originally by: Alindyar Edited by: Alindyar on 10/05/2008 00:29:27 Recently, I've been camping with a Moros (Lame, smack me w/e)... However, the problem is... It works, and it works VERY well. Setup Highs ----- 2x Capital Remote Armor Repairer 2x Capital Shield Transporter Meds ----- 3x Cap Recharger II 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster Lows ----- Capital Armor Repairer 6x Capacitor Power Relay II Rigs ----- 3x CCC Drones ----- Mix of T2 Sentries, Lights, Heavies. Deals out over 1000dps, to drones which in theory, can not ever die if used correctly. (Sentries get 10k or so raw HP). Everything also runs 24/7. Its virtually impossible to die in 60seconds, as thats the longest you'll be aggro'd for after a reasonable fleet arrives. Now while this thread is unauthordox and I will continue to use this setup for all the time it stays avalible. This needs to be fixed. (I don't know how), but it does. Um... I can only hope this is a joke setup, because if not, im surprised you can even see your screen with all the failsauce in your eye. Anyone with half a brain could render your "uber" moros ineffective. 1) If you arent in siege mode, they can jam you then pop the drones. And dont give me the "omg I can recall them" spiel, because anyone who flies a moros knows that the ships footprint is so huge, oftentimes when you launch sentries they end up outside of recall range, so you have to move around to each drone and scoop them. Try doing that while youre webbed. 2) If you are in siege mode, then you are basically "aggroed" for 10 minutes not 1 minute, and all they have to do is bump you off station then jump a properly fitted dread or 2 in on top of you and you will pop quickly due to your assinine mid/low setup (no resistances wtf ??) In fact, PLEASE tell me when and where you intend to use this setup next. Id love to come and um... witness it. This signature space for rent
Wang Zenormous	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:33:00 - [107] Originally by: Alindyar They park scorps 150KM away constantly, I just scoop drones, de-aggro. I don't believe from the time machariel arrives on grid, to being bumped 30km, can take less than 60secs. Unless by sheer LUCK, It arrives at perfect angle, gets a perfect bump (instead of the ones where you go through target ship) and bumps me at a speed which keeps me above a 500m/s average for 60s. And exactly how effective is your setup while youre inside station ? Because thats where you will be when facing any opposition with a brain.

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