EVE Search - Artillery - in the box and on ship comparison.

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Artillery - in the box and on ship comparison.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 05:36:00 - [1] Right off to the numbers 1400mm II Dam mod: 7.245 ROF: 23.63 Clip size: 10 Ammo damage: 44 (emp L) Damage per shot: 318,78 10 second normalized damage: 135 Tempest normalized damage: 224,9 (all guns: 1349,4) Maelstrom normalized damage: 179,9 (all guns: 1439,2) 425mm railgun II Dam mod: 3.3 ROF: 9.56 Clip size: 40 Ammo damage: 48 (antimatter L) Damage per shot: 158.4 10 second normalized damage: 165.7 Megathron normalized damage: 207,1 (all guns: 1449,7) Hyperion normalized damage: 207.1 (all guns: 1656,8) Rokh normalized damage: 165.7 (all guns: 1325,6) Mega beam laser II Dam mod: 3.6 ROF: 9 Clip size: infinite Ammo damage: 48 (multifreq L) Damage per shot: 172.8 10 second normalized damage: 192 Apoc normalized damage: 192 (all guns: 1536) Abaddon normalized damage: 240 (all guns: 1920) Tachyon II Dam mod: 5.4 ROF: 12.5 Clip size: infinite Ammo damage: 48 (multifreq L) Damage per shot: 259.2 10 second normalized damage: 207.36 Apoc normalized damage 207.36 (all guns: 1658,88) Abaddon normalized damage: 259,2 (all guns: 2073,6) Setup: I am normalizing the guns damage down to 10 seconds because the first two shots really represent the "alpha strike" capabilities of the gun (the initial volley and then the second volley that happens at the guns rof) I chose 10 seconds because thats a nice round number and approx what the rof is for a nicely skilled tempests pilot (actually closer to 9 seconds) Ignoring skills because they'll do the same for all guns, and used battleship lvl5 to work out the ship bonuses. Results: The results were a bit more drastic than I expected so I checked the tempest numbers twice. Sure, the 1400mm has the highest damage per shot so its single shot alpha strike is the highest: Tempest volley: 2390,85 Maelstrom volley: 2550,24 Megathron volley: 1386 Hyperion volley: 1584 Rokh volley: 1267,2 Apoc volley (mega beam): 1382,4 Abaddon volley (mega beam): 1728 Apoc volley (tachyon): 2073,6 Abaddon volley (tachyon): 2592 wait! Abaddon volley damage using tachyons is the highest!?! So, unless my numbers are whacked out (a bit jetlagged atm so they could be completely bonkers) ... please review them and comment ... there is something seriously wrong here. .
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.14 05:54:00 - [2] Edited by: Vitrael on 14/05/2008 05:55:31 Due to the very high ROF and very high DPS of Tachs in comparison with other long range large turret systems, "alpha" argument falls all to pieces. Essentially, the Artillery will deal the most damage in a fight that lasts less time than Tachyon ROF. The moment the Tachs fire a second time they have pretty much bested the Artillery from then on. That number is pretty low (sub 7 seconds with a heat sink). Furthermore the artillery have comparable optimal but enormously decreased tracking. They may never cap out, but they DO run out of ammo pretty much once per minute. Artillery suck. (quoth the Minmatar fanboi)
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.05.14 05:57:00 - [3] Why am I not Amarr? _____________________________ OMG I GOT A KILL GUYZ!!?>!>
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:23:00 - [4] Originally by: Vitrael Essentially, the Artillery will deal the most damage in a fight that lasts less time than Tachyon ROF. See how I approached the fact that abaddon tachyon volley damage is the highest? .
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:35:00 - [5] But they don't use any cap! I think you're right, artillery these days isn't even king of the alpha strike. I think it's agreed that artillery atm is the worst weapon system around. It's inferior to all the others, and has no real place atm unless you're simply already trained to use it. Whether it's DPS/fitting/tracking/clip size or even an alpha strike bonus, I'm just hoping CCP gives it some lovin' soon.
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Boz Well But they don't use any cap! despite the irony of that its worth mentioning that cap on the first volley does not matter at all .
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:46:00 - [7] Please do DPS over a 10 Minute period for Abaddon before complaining. Abaddon does lowest DPS of the lot over a 10 Minute period. It has higher alpha but cap usage means the abaddon runs out of cap very quickly in a proper fit. And by proper fit, I mean making the Abaddon hit at 160km with your full rack of tach II (which is what you are using for your numbers). -- Billion Isk Mission
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:51:00 - [8] Edited by: Ravenal on 14/05/2008 06:55:11 Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/05/2008 06:50:00 Please do DPS over a 10 Minute period for Abaddon before complaining. dont be silly... feel i need to explain this a bit then. The purpose of this thread is not to do over time dps, but to point out the flaw of the 1400mm gun specifically. I did this in as general way as i possibly could. If you are lucky enough to be able to shoot relentlessly for 5-10 minutes, all the more props to you i'd say (factoring in lag when locking targets and module lag when disengaging targets that have moved out of tracking or range) ... your fleet scenario simply isnt worth the time to use when comparing these guns. .
Achran Dexx Caldari CompleXion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:53:00 - [9] Have you tried using tachyons for more than two or three minutes?
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Achran Dexx Have you tried using tachyons for more than two or three minutes? Have you tried destroying a ship with 1400mm guns recently? .
Delichon The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Achran Dexx Have you tried using tachyons for more than two or three minutes? You shouldn't have problem using tachions in fleet, because your nick name starts with "A", thus your chanses of being primary and dieing/rewarping before you cap out are very high. Just kidding ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:22:00 - [12] actually the worst ship in your lineup is the rokh and that's dps and alpha wise so maybe that's something to complain about :p why didn't you use t2 ammo btw? oh and there's a reason you don't see that many tachyon abaddons flying around, whereas the one you do see a lot (apoc) seems to be im line with hyperion dps wise. oh and just comparing dps or volley damage without taking into account the guns other attributes or the ships attributes is somewhat pointless.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:24:00 - [13] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/05/2008 07:26:02 Originally by: Ravenal Originally by: Achran Dexx Have you tried using tachyons for more than two or three minutes? Have you tried destroying a ship with 1400mm guns recently? Just out of intrest, could you tell us exactly what your objective is, since your tests are horribly skewed in favor of someone using unrealistic setups to kill haulers in 1-2 volley. You are not really looking at fleets either, where sustainability over 5-10 minutes makes a big difference. Small gang stuff wuth Tach? Well, that could work, though most small gang abaddons tend to use megapulse and get up close and personal. Anyhow back to point, what is your objective and please please realistically fit ships before doing DPS/Alpha charts. You can fit apocs with 8 tach but almost everybody uses 7 due to fitting issues, for example. Do you want the Cap usage of a tach II given to 1400? After all there needs to be drawbacks, or we go back to the days of people using 8 projectiles on a apoc. Have you even measured the real DPS on armour of all these ships? -- Billion Isk Mission
Stork DK Minmatar Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:27:00 - [14] Tachyon Beam Laser II Powergrid: 4125 CPU: 63 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Powergrid: 3575 CPU: 47 About 15.5% more PG used and 34% more CPU used per gun. 'nuff said tbh ___________ - Stork DK
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Lord WarATron Just out of intrest, could you tell us exactly what your objective is to show that the alpha of all guns does not belong to the 1400mm And yes, I know its horribly difficult to fit 8 tachyons and run them for an extended time period, but if its alpha you want you "can" do it. .
Stork DK Minmatar Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:37:00 - [16] also when youfit 6 arties on a temp you still have 2 spare highslots to fx cruise missiles. Abaddon doesnt ___________ - Stork DK
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Stork DK Tachyon Beam Laser II Powergrid: 4125 CPU: 63 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Powergrid: 3575 CPU: 47 About 15.5% more PG used and 34% more CPU used per gun. 'nuff said tbh apoc has 25% more powergrid than the tempest, 50 less cpu though. 8 tachyons for the apoc are a breeze though. two AC routers leave you with over 1k PW on the 8 tach apoc, 6 1400mms drain your PW basically dry. so, no. Not "'nuff said tbh" .
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:44:00 - [18] Edited by: Ravenal on 14/05/2008 07:44:53 Originally by: Stork DK also when youfit 6 arties on a temp you still have 2 spare highslots to fx cruise missiles. Abaddon doesnt oh, yeah Thats where your two AC routers go, and for what gain? 2x 400ish damage alpha strike?!? not really. .
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 08:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Ravenal Originally by: Lord WarATron Just out of intrest, could you tell us exactly what your objective is to show that the alpha of all guns does not belong to the 1400mm If the Objective is to hang a painting, then you need a hole. You are discussing the merits of a Drill insted of relising the solution is the hole. Again, what exactly is your objective in real world pvp? I mean, anyone can "COOK" up stats. I read your comment on ACR's on the other post and LOL. If objective is Alpha for Alpha's sake insted of real world PvP, then Temptest H: 6 x 1400 II/quake, 2 x Siege II/Navy Torps M: Whatever L: 3 x Gyro II, 3 x BCU II R: 2 x ACR, 1 x Whatever. The Launchers do 237 DPS and 1797 Alpha, and the Guns do 6081 Alpha and 623 DPS. Total DPS = 860! Total Alpha = 7878! Cap usage = 0, fires for as long as it has ammo. Now the humble Apoc. Same setup with 2 ACR and 6 Damage mods. Apoc H: 8 x Tach II/Gleem M: Whatever L: 6 x Heatsink II R: 2 x ACR DPS = 766 Alpha = 5039 Cap usage = 43.3cap/sec (kinda like getting hit by 1-2 t2 Heavy Neuts), only can fire for as long as it has cap. So the Temptest has higher Alpha than the apoc and more DPS and does more damage. Both setups require 2 x ACR's, and both setups are for max alpha use the same category of T2 Ammo. Both have full rack of guns and 6 damage mods. See the problem with Unrealistic setups to "Cook" stats now? -- Billion Isk Mission
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.14 08:51:00 - [20] Honestly those stats look even less useful than OP's. What are you trying to do with a siege/artillery fit, other than EFT warrior up a huge alpha? Maybe that was your point (to produce useless cooked up numbers?), but at least the OP appears to be trying to be objective. His point as best I can tell is that having a high alpha is one of artillery's few bonuses, but even that is done better with other guns. Although perhaps a seperate point is that even if in practice the matar ships/guns have a superior alpha, it's not by a huge margin and having a slightly greater alpha (which may or may not be the case) is rather meaningless. Take into account the many negatives that come with artillery setups, and they are pretty clearly the worst of the weapon systems.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:00:00 - [21] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/05/2008 09:04:58 Originally by: Boz Well Honestly those stats look even less useful than OP's. What are you trying to do with a siege/artillery fit, other than EFT warrior up a huge alpha? Maybe that was your point (to produce useless cooked up numbers?), but at least the OP appears to be trying to be objective. His point as best I can tell is that having a high alpha is one of artillery's few bonuses, but even that is done better with other guns. Although perhaps a seperate point is that even if in practice the matar ships/guns have a superior alpha, it's not by a huge margin and having a slightly greater alpha (which may or may not be the case) is rather meaningless. Take into account the many negatives that come with artillery setups, and they are pretty clearly the worst of the weapon systems. The whole point is that the OP is cooking stuff up in EFT. A 1400 does crap damage on purpose. Put one on a RCU'ed up Harbringer for example. Would you call a 1400 Harbringer be a correct argument to claim that a 1400 is uncompetitive? Only in properly fitted ships can you compare. OP is not using properly fitted non-minmatar ships and neglects the mention the major benifits of Projectiles over conventional Turrets ( and that temptest have 2 extra high slots for launchers/utility). If the op has a issue, such as to re-introduce cap usage again for projectiles in return for a damage boost or alpha boost, thats fine. But as it stands, 1400's have the highist alpha in "Bonused ships" when fighting real world opponents due to resists. -- Billion Isk Mission
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Lord WarATron Again, what exactly is your objective in real world pvp? My purpose was more on a theoretical note... and i left damage mods and such out of the equation for a purpose. Additionally it was the abaddon that had the higher alpha, not the apoc. Please bear in mind that I tried to use my calculations as "disconnected" from any tactical scenario while still noting that each of the gun setup was possible... I've used a T2 fitted apoc with 8 tachs. *** to fit but fun to shoot. so quit your "real world pvp" setup crap... there are more applications to a 8x tach ship than "real world pvp", whatever that means coming from a BoBit Quote:** His point as best I can tell is that having a high alpha is one of artillery's few bonuses, but even that is done better with other guns. Although perhaps a seperate point is that even if in practice the matar ships/guns have a superior alpha, it's not by a huge margin and having a slightly greater alpha (which may or may not be the case) is rather meaningless. Take into account the many negatives that come with artillery setups, and they are pretty clearly the worst of the weapon systems. thats what she said. .
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:12:00 - [23] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/05/2008 09:13:21 Originally by: Ravenal Originally by: Lord WarATron Again, what exactly is your objective in real world pvp? My purpose was more on a theoretical note... and i left damage mods and such out of the equation for a purpose. Additionally it was the abaddon that had the higher alpha, not the apoc. Please bear in mind that I tried to use my calculations as "disconnected" from any tactical scenario while still noting that each of the gun setup was possible... I've used a T2 fitted apoc with 8 tachs. *** to fit but fun to shoot. so quit your "real world pvp" setup crap... there are more applications to a 8x tach ship than "real world pvp", whatever that means coming from a BoBit Quote:** His point as best I can tell is that having a high alpha is one of artillery's few bonuses, but even that is done better with other guns. Although perhaps a seperate point is that even if in practice the matar ships/guns have a superior alpha, it's not by a huge margin and having a slightly greater alpha (which may or may not be the case) is rather meaningless. Take into account the many negatives that come with artillery setups, and they are pretty clearly the worst of the weapon systems. thats what she said. So you are talking about theoretical alpha for the sake of alpha insted of real world pvp? If the objective is just theory and not "tactical scenario's" then the unrealistic Siege II/1400 Temptest wins hands down for its 8k Alpha. We can talk about engines and car parts and theorycraft. But people only care about turning the key to start a car and not about the technicalities of the spark plugs from different manufacturers. -- Billion Isk Mission
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Lord WarATron The whole point is that the OP is cooking stuff up in EFT. i did not use EFT, I did my calculations by hand. I'm old fashioned and dont like EFT all that much. Quote: A 1400 does crap damage on purpose. Put one on a RCU'ed up Harbringer for example. Would you call a 1400 Harbringer be a correct argument to claim that a 1400 is uncompetitive? which is why i have "normalized 10 second damage" and then special entries for 1400mm damage using tempest and maelstrom Quote: Only in properly fitted ships can you compare. OP is not using properly fitted non-minmatar ships and neglects the mention the major benifits of Projectiles over conventional Turrets ( and that temptest have 2 extra high slots for launchers/utility). utility yeah, launchers ... rarely, and then not for much dps. Here I stripped the benefit of utility and launchers because of possible range issues as they tend to vary. The only common constant would be the range and tracking, and i even left the tracking out which further penalizes the 1400mm. Quote: If the op has a issue, such as to re-introduce cap usage again for projectiles in return for a damage boost or alpha boost, thats fine. But as it stands I did not include cap because it does not matter within the span of a single volley or two which is the point of the op, the supposed alpha ability of 1400mm. Quote: 1400's have the highist alpha in "Bonused ships" when fighting real world opponents due to resists. "fighting real world" ... gimme a break here. Comparing resists on the abaddon and tempest/maelstrom the minmatar come out on the bottom. Comparing hps and resists vs apoc and tempest ... apoc wins. stating for clarification. You are doing exactly what I was trying to avoid in the OP, trying to fit the "out of the box" guns into "real world scenarios" that have so many variables. All those variables makes calculating any sort of comparisons very difficult. So again, TRY to compare these guns in ALL scenarios. If you can do that, please continue to reference real world scenarios. Remember you have to find "general joe" to prove your point. "reverend joe" is not a representative for the group. .
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Lord WarATron the unrealistic Siege II/1400 Temptest wins hands down for its 8k Alpha. this is "reverend joe", not a representative of the real world. You misunderstand that I did NOT just "cook" up any setting or numbers or whatever. I purely did the path of the ALPHA with guns without considering skills or other modules. Like you say, I could cook up this and that scenario. But thats what I tried to avoid in the OP (thought i did good with that even) ... I remove ALL aspects other than the common ones of these guns. No missiles because they dont always work depending on range and timeframe. No utility slots for the same reason. No tracking even because all these guns "should" suffer the same bad effects when tracking kicks into the equation (1400's suffer first though) no cap because its just the first few volleys that all guns can handle easily. .
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Ravenal Originally by: Lord WarATron the unrealistic Siege II/1400 Temptest wins hands down for its 8k Alpha. this is "reverend joe", not a representative of the real world. You misunderstand that I did NOT just "cook" up any setting or numbers or whatever. I purely did the path of the ALPHA with guns without considering skills or other modules. Like you say, I could cook up this and that scenario. But thats what I tried to avoid in the OP (thought i did good with that even) ... I remove ALL aspects other than the common ones of these guns. No missiles because they dont always work depending on range and timeframe. No utility slots for the same reason. No tracking even because all these guns "should" suffer the same bad effects when tracking kicks into the equation (1400's suffer first though) no cap because its just the first few volleys that all guns can handle easily. So according to your theory, comparing 6 Tach II on a temptest is the same as comparing 6 Tach II on a apoc, since you do not look at any external factors, just the gun itself. Do you not see what is wrong with your initial approach? Guns were balanced with being fitted in setups. There are pro's and cons. Not all of these pro's and cons are in the module itself. Some are in the ship the module is used in. Some are in the combination of ship and gun. -- Billion Isk Mission
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Lord WarATron So according to your theory, comparing 6 Tach II on a temptest is the same as comparing 6 Tach II on a apoc, since you do not look at any external factors, just the gun itself. I did that too - per shot damage and normalized gun damage. In results I then explored the theoretical (yet possible) alpha of each ship with the guns used in the comparison. In that comparison I removed all but the most common aspects of the guns possible damage. As you rightfully said, i "can" fiddle around with all kinds of setups to get this and that... so again I just "normalized" the setups taking only the ship bonuses and number of turret slots available. ...scientific progress goes boink .
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Ravenal Originally by: Lord WarATron So according to your theory, comparing 6 Tach II on a temptest is the same as comparing 6 Tach II on a apoc, since you do not look at any external factors, just the gun itself. I did that too - per shot damage and normalized gun damage. In results I then explored the theoretical (yet possible) alpha of each ship with the guns used in the comparison. In that comparison I removed all but the most common aspects of the guns possible damage. As you rightfully said, i "can" fiddle around with all kinds of setups to get this and that... so again I just "normalized" the setups taking only the ship bonuses and number of turret slots available. ...scientific progress goes boink The Scientific progress can happen but you are not using a valid testbed. E.G Apoc with 8 x 1400/quake = 5132 Alpha Apoc with 8 x Tach II/Gleem = 3825 Alpha Apoc gets no bonus to either weapon so its testing just the guns itself. Yet 1400 is easier to fit and has more Alpha. The issue has never been that 1400's are crap. Its been that people are trying to hang a picture and arguing about what make and model of drill to use insted of talking about how to make a hole. -- Billion Isk Mission
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Lord WarATron E.G Apoc with 8 x 1400/quake = 5132 Alpha Apoc with 8 x Tach II/Gleem = 3825 Alpha correction: apoc 8x1400/emp (used in the op) = 2550 apoc 8xtach/multi = 2073,6 not as much difference as in your example PLUS the highest alpha from the OP was with the abaddon, not the apoc... sheesh... seriously, you just dont get it. You are still hacking away with specific X setup and stuff like that. If you are going to go into the 1400mm on an apoc setup you gotta do the tachs on a tempest too. oh wait... thats stupid. .
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:24:00 - [30] Just read the thread and: op has no clue. Listen to Lord WarATron guy, he knows what he's talking about.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.