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Poena Loveless MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:46:00 - [151] Edited by: Poena Loveless on 16/05/2008 20:46:34 Originally by: Stork DK Tachyon Beam Laser II Powergrid: 4125 CPU: 63 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Powergrid: 3575 CPU: 47 About 15.5% more PG used and 34% more CPU used per gun. 'nuff said tbh and an Apoc has about 25% more PG than a Tempest (and +2 turret hard points)
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:58:00 - [152] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/05/2008 21:03:21 Originally by: Boz Well The optimal is doable, and I've seen several fits (in killboards ;p) that reach it. However, their tank usually consists of 1 DC2, and only occasionally a plate (perhaps why they're on the killboards ). I think you'll be hard pressed to fit a tempest with a decent tank, a MWD, a couple gyro's and maintain a 160km optimal/targetting range. Changing just 1 trimark to a locus on that temptest fit some posted earlier also acheives the result. Most people just add a tracking enhancer to help them fight people 150-160km+. Originally by: Poena Loveless and an Apoc has about 25% more PG than a Tempest (and +2 turret hard points) All things being equal, 25% more grid + 2 turrets = approx 33% more grid required to fit them. (e.g if each turret was, for arguments sake, 1000 grid each, having 8 insted of 6 means you need 8000 grid insted of 6000, which is a increase of a third (1/3 of 6000 = 2000). This is why most apoc pilots use 6 or 7 tach insted of 8. -- Billion Isk Mission
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:02:00 - [153] Originally by: Lord WarATron Changing just 1 trimark to a locus on that temptest fit some posted earlier also acheives the result. I don't recall whether or not the fit is DD proof anymore. Also, changing that trimark lowers the supposed advantage gained by having good ammo type selection (rather dramatically). At any rate, are you seriously contending that removing a significant chunk of the Tempest's tank makes the comparison invalid? At most, we've got the comparison unfairly leaning toward the Tempest... and the Tempest still horribly loses. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:03:00 - [154] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Boz Well The optimal is doable, and I've seen several fits (in killboards ;p) that reach it. However, their tank usually consists of 1 DC2, and only occasionally a plate (perhaps why they're on the killboards ). I think you'll be hard pressed to fit a tempest with a decent tank, a MWD, a couple gyro's and maintain a 160km optimal/targetting range. I'm almost positive that he's relying on falloff for the Tempest/Maelstrom in this, but requiring optimal in the Apoc. Depending how much falloff he's allowing for, that could be totally reasonable. -Liang In the Apoc 160+ km it is easily reacheable with T2 Tachyons and Aurora or even T1 Tachyons and Faction Ammo. With megabeams version you need to compromise a bit of either cap stability, armor or damage, but you can get to 171km optimal with a single tracking module. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:06:00 - [155] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lord WarATron Changing just 1 trimark to a locus on that temptest fit some posted earlier also acheives the result. I don't recall whether or not the fit is DD proof anymore. Also, changing that trimark lowers the supposed advantage gained by having good ammo type selection (rather dramatically). At any rate, are you seriously contending that removing a significant chunk of the Tempest's tank makes the comparison invalid? At most, we've got the comparison unfairly leaning toward the Tempest... and the Tempest still horribly loses. -Liang You also have to note that the apoc fit also changes a lot. having it fight a enemy who warps in at 160km + 20-30km (since the people you shoot will be aligning/mwding out of bubble) mean major headaches for non-tach apocs. thats why most apoc pilots use tach. -- Billion Isk Mission
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:09:00 - [156] Originally by: Lord WarATron You also have to note that the apoc fit also changes a lot. having it fight a enemy who warps in at 160km + 20-30km (since the people you shoot will be aligning/mwding out of bubble) mean major headaches for non-tach apocs. thats why most apoc pilots use tach. If you care to refer to the thread "Large Artillery - why train it?", the Tach Apoc is shown to be better in all situations to Arty Tempests/Maelstroms. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:26:00 - [157] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar I think that would be wrong cause after all the artilleries use no cap so it's fair to be a little weaker in DPS It's bloody 400 DPS weaker. cry Right now I'd do better with an Amarr with T1 guns (unnamed) then T2 1400's and millions of SP invested.
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.16 22:53:00 - [158] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar I think that would be wrong cause after all the artilleries use no cap so it's fair to be a little weaker in DPS Getting kinda tired of hearing this line of reasoning. Dont forget that the capless weapon ships have a smaller capacitor. Even though they have higher cap recharge to achieve the same peak cap regen rate you have to count skills that add to the capacitor are more effective on ships that have a larger capacitor to begin with. This however not being entirely true however. The initial cap on the armageddon and tempest are for example the same while the tempest has a noticably worse cap regen. All in all, the ships that use more cap have more cap to compensate. Its just a question of at which skill level the ships are supposed to be "equals" in cap regen considering tankability and gankability. For example, i find fitting a dual repper + appropriate guns on an amarr ship about as "easy" to run as on minmatar ships (top skills on both for cap, fitting and that stuff). So, the end result is that claiming the weapon is capless as some sort of uber benefit isnt really that much of a benefit, specially in long range engagements where you dont encounter neuting. Going for the racial background, amarr neuts then dont work so nicely on minmatar ships. They however have tracking disruptors that now work wonders on minmatar turret ships while minmatar racial ew is target painting. Yeah... comfy but .
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.16 23:12:00 - [159] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 16/05/2008 23:13:20 Well my ultimate wish would be to be given 10% to damage per BS level instead of the 5% damage 5% rate of fire that is now for the tempest (and generally the BS bonuses of RoF to be converted to damage) + double current clip capacity aka geting it from 10 bullets to 20 for the 1400mm. This way it would lose some firepower in the long run since the 5% rate fo fire > 5% damage and the 25% less RoF (at level 5 compaired to now) would count as an extra increase in clip capacity But i suggested only the clip increase because i try to be modest and reasonable. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.16 23:21:00 - [160] in my opinion rof on the 1400's should be decreased. This means the current alpha they have will have effect longer into the fight. Coupled with that a bigger clip would be required because currently it only takes about 80 - 90 seconds to empty the clip. With a proportionally bigger clip size to rof the railguns will still out damage the 1400's later into the fight, preferably at about the time the 1400 has to reload or there about. imo lasers should catch up to railguns in dps at about the time the railguns have to reload, although their dps should be similar up to that point, slowly converging and winning over as long range dps masters. .
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.16 23:41:00 - [161] Yes but the problem in this is that you approach the railguns too much like this. Asking for higher RoF and larger clip size won't be in effect as if bringing the artillery too close to railgun "flavor" ? While with the increase of damage it will maintain the classical minmatar "flavor" of epic Alpha and the larger clip size + slower rof will contribute in less reloading aka less reloading lag. Also since increasing the damage creates less dps in the long run compaired to the RoF increase perhaps this way the other players won't mind the change.
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.17 01:26:00 - [162] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Yes but the problem in this is that you approach the railguns too much like this. Asking for higher RoF and larger clip size won't be in effect as if bringing the artillery too close to railgun "flavor" ? While with the increase of damage it will maintain the classical minmatar "flavor" of epic Alpha and the larger clip size + slower rof will contribute in less reloading aka less reloading lag. Also since increasing the damage creates less dps in the long run compaired to the RoF increase perhaps this way the other players won't mind the change. So far no one has objected to the alleged fact that CCP wont up the actual alpha damage because of its insta popping ability (one of the reasons behind the hp buff). So the only way to retain the "alpha" ability is to stretch it out to several "big" (but not insta) shots over a "short" amount of time. This means that you can most likely get one volley off at a cruiser before it aligns and warps, two at a battlecruiser and perhaps three at a battleship (depending heavily on lock speed and target agility). This means agile ships (usually more vulnerable though) can evade alpha (1-2 hits) while heavier ships have to slug it out (2-3 hits)... .
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:07:00 - [163] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar The Abaddon is the worst ship in game. The credibility of your comments that you just made, that you will ever make, was just thrown out the window. Thanks.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:21:00 - [164] Originally by: Ravenal This means agile ships (usually more vulnerable though) can evade alpha (1-2 hits) while heavier ships have to slug it out (2-3 hits)...[/quote Not exactly.For example lets take a Tempest with the current bonus it alpha strikes (with max skills EMP L and 3 gyros II) for 4778 If you multiply this per 1.25 (the supposed added damage bonus) it gets near 6000 With the Maelstorm as it is now its alpha is around 5096 with 3 gyros II If we multiply this per 1,25 (the extra damage 25% modifier) we get around 6400-6500 . So i don;t think these new alphas although of considerable amount are still not enoough to insta pop a cruiser since if we consider now a stabber (therefore not very tanked cruiser we see that it's overall hitpoints are with an average pvp fiting around 11000 . So the alpha of 6500 won't be able to destroy it in one hit and as far as the second hit goes it will need much time to refire since the ship has no longer the roF bonus so i don;t think it is so devastating for game balance after all.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:38:00 - [165] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Zaran Darkstar The Abaddon is the worst ship in game. The credibility of your comments that you just made, that you will ever make, was just thrown out the window. Thanks. Lol. My credibility? As if this is some kind of court? How about return with real arguments over the subject of this thread instead? No i am not going to explain to you why the abaddon sucks so badly apart from 1 case that is a very limited way of playing anyway but that 1 case is not enough to "save" it. But i am not going to open your eyes. Remain in the dark of your ignorance if it pleases you. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:57:00 - [166] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Zaran Darkstar The Abaddon is the worst ship in game. The credibility of your comments that you just made, that you will ever make, was just thrown out the window. Thanks. Lol. My credibility? As if this is some kind of court? How about return with real arguments over the subject of this thread instead? No i am not going to explain to you why the abaddon sucks so badly apart from 1 case that is a very limited way of playing anyway but that 1 case is not enough to "save" it. But i am not going to open your eyes. Remain in the dark of your ignorance if it pleases you. Right... Who wants 1k dps and a buffer anyway.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.17 11:41:00 - [167] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 17/05/2008 11:41:44 Originally by: AstroPhobic Right... Who wants 1k dps and a buffer anyway. For how many seconds? _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:44:00 - [168] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 17/05/2008 11:41:44 Originally by: AstroPhobic Right... Who wants 1k dps and a buffer anyway. For how many seconds? Just for giggles, if you replace the trimarks with CCCs, Sensor booster with a cap recharger, and your 3rd heatsink (Leaves you still over 1k DPS with 2 HS), 5 minutes, 18 seconds PLUS about 16 extra minutes when using cap boosters. Leaving the trimarks, HS, and sensor booster in, 2 minutes, 11 seconds with no cap booster running, and 7 minutes with it running. 7 minutes = plenty of time to kill whatever you need to kill with 1k DPS... The point is, it's not worthless, it doesn't suck, it's DEFINITELY not the worst ship in eve. Before you go running around whining about the abaddon, why don't you take a look at some of the more broken ships.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.17 16:50:00 - [169] I have been the most vocal, prolific, and strong worded Amarr whiner on the forums for a long time running. The only Problem that the Abaddon has is that it does not present a significant role change from the Geddon. Which is a "problem" many ships would love to have. Vote Goumindong for CSM
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:05:00 - [170] Originally by: Goumindong I have been the most vocal, prolific, and strong worded Amarr whiner on the forums for a long time running. The only Problem that the Abaddon has is that it does not present a significant role change from the Geddon. Which is a "problem" many ships would love to have. Agreed. It's just a big geddon. While CCP likes to have ships in the same class to have different roles, I don't really mind.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:14:00 - [171] Originally by: Goumindong I have been the most vocal, prolific, and strong worded Amarr whiner on the forums for a long time running. The only Problem that the Abaddon has is that it does not present a significant role change from the Geddon. Which is a "problem" many ships would love to have. well abaddon is also a much better bait ship :P ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:18:00 - [172] Geuss we going off topic now. Weren't we talking about the 1400mm?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:21:00 - [173] Originally by: Jalif Geuss we going off topic now. Weren't we talking about the 1400mm? Right. Artillery sucks, it needs a boost, we all know that. We were figuring out how, without making them too similar to other guns or breaking eve or going against the recent HP buff.
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:26:00 - [174] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Jalif Geuss we going off topic now. Weren't we talking about the 1400mm? Right. Artillery sucks, it needs a boost, we all know that. We were figuring out how, without making them too similar to other guns or breaking eve or going against the recent HP buff. Well, I have a stupid idea, but its an idea! What would you do if you were minmatar fighting against the amarr? Well, modify the AC into a new kind of long range weapon. Basicly it is an arty with the same following atributes as an AC: Clipsize, ROF & Damage Modifier. We now have something special, something new, & something that will work in fleet & gangs! PS: yeah, its stupid PS: (off-topic) all my sentences began with W!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:33:00 - [175] Originally by: Jalif Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Jalif Geuss we going off topic now. Weren't we talking about the 1400mm? Right. Artillery sucks, it needs a boost, we all know that. We were figuring out how, without making them too similar to other guns or breaking eve or going against the recent HP buff. Well, I have a stupid idea, but its an idea! What would you do if you were minmatar fighting against the amarr? Well, modify the AC into a new kind of long range weapon. Basicly it is an arty with the same following atributes as an AC: Clipsize, ROF & Damage Modifier. We now have something special, something new, & something that will work in fleet & gangs! PS: yeah, its stupid PS: (off-topic) all my sentences began with W! Besides being completely contrary to current artillery, shifting an entire weapon system, removing the usefulness of quake, becoming darn close to rails, eating up lots of ammo and essentially being opposite of the weapon's name... Wait, there was no end to that sentence.
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:48:00 - [176] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Jalif Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Jalif Geuss we going off topic now. Weren't we talking about the 1400mm? Right. Artillery sucks, it needs a boost, we all know that. We were figuring out how, without making them too similar to other guns or breaking eve or going against the recent HP buff. Well, I have a stupid idea, but its an idea! What would you do if you were minmatar fighting against the amarr? Well, modify the AC into a new kind of long range weapon. Basicly it is an arty with the same following atributes as an AC: Clipsize, ROF & Damage Modifier. We now have something special, something new, & something that will work in fleet & gangs! PS: yeah, its stupid PS: (off-topic) all my sentences began with W! Besides being completely contrary to current artillery, shifting an entire weapon system, removing the usefulness of quake, becoming darn close to rails, eating up lots of ammo and essentially being opposite of the weapon's name... Wait, there was no end to that sentence. Lets lay out the artillery Tracking is the worst but that is no problem because we dominate with: Webbers & Target Painters Optimal is the worst off all but that is no problem because we have an ownage logistic cruiser who can help with that. Tracking Links! Cap is no issue cause our guns don't use cap! Our guns don't use cap! But the think is, ones we have a minmatar logistic/recon pilot, the other races benefit from that too. BLARG! So, what is our only problem which logistics & other support can help with? The damage versus ROF gun. I don't have that much knowledge about the excact details about those. I know ROF sucks. But how is the DPS & Alpha strike compared to the other guns? May I request ones again a layout for that?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:52:00 - [177] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Goumindong I have been the most vocal, prolific, and strong worded Amarr whiner on the forums for a long time running. The only Problem that the Abaddon has is that it does not present a significant role change from the Geddon. Which is a "problem" many ships would love to have. well abaddon is also a much better bait ship :P Nah, cause you expect it. The Geddon is better because you don't expect it to have a large tank and its uber tank is only slightly weaker than the abaddon. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.18 00:15:00 - [178] Originally by: AstroPhobic Just for giggles, if you replace the trimarks with CCCs, Sensor booster with a cap recharger, and your 3rd heatsink (Leaves you still over 1k DPS with 2 HS), 5 minutes, 18 seconds PLUS about 16 extra minutes when using cap boosters. Well... with max skills and navy multifrequency with 8 tachyons and 2 HSII the dps are 770. Keep in mind that the Armageddon with 7 tachyons 3 HSII navy multis reaches the 808 dps ,plus, it can fire for ever without cap booster. Quote: Leaving the trimarks, HS, and sensor booster in, 2 minutes, 11 seconds with no cap booster running, and 7 minutes with it running. 7 minutes = plenty of time to kill whatever you need to kill with 1k DPS... Yes but the DPS are 866 not 1000. Quote: The point is, it's not worthless, it doesn't suck, it's DEFINITELY not the worst ship in eve. Before you go running around whining about the abaddon, why don't you take a look at some of the more broken ships. The point is that with average price of 150M you get a ship that does at best 58 more dps (thats only 7% more dps) and a bit better tank to the Armageddon that costs around 52M average is faster a bit more agile can fire the guns for ever and is less likely to be set primary. I rest my case.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.18 02:04:00 - [179] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar The point is that with average price of 150M you get a ship that does at best 58 more dps (thats only 7% more dps) and a bit better tank to the Armageddon that costs around 52M average is faster a bit more agile can fire the guns for ever and is less likely to be set primary. I rest my case. Abaddon 8x MP II (AN Multi) 100mn MWD II, Hvy Cap Booster II, Warp Disruptor II, Fleeting Web 2x 1600 RT, 2x EANM II, DC II, 2x HS II 3x Trimark I 5x Hammerhead II -- 166K EHP -- 973 DPS @ 15km Geddon 7x MP II (AN Multi) 100mn MWD II, Hvy Cap Booster II, Faint Warp Disruptor 1600 RT, 2x EANM II, 2x ANP II, IFFA I, 2x HS II 3x Trimark I 5x Ogre II -- 101K EHP -- 1077 DPS @ 15km The Geddon may have more punch, but the Abaddon has far more EHP... and it can fit a point and scram. IMO, Abaddon > Geddon at plate ganking. That's not to say that the Geddon isn't pure pwnage, though. :p -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.18 04:18:00 - [180] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 18/05/2008 04:34:09 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Zaran Darkstar The point is that with average price of 150M you get a ship that does at best 58 more dps (thats only 7% more dps) and a bit better tank to the Armageddon that costs around 52M average is faster a bit more agile can fire the guns for ever and is less likely to be set primary. I rest my case. Abaddon 8x MP II (AN Multi) 100mn MWD II, Hvy Cap Booster II, Warp Disruptor II, Fleeting Web 2x 1600 RT, 2x EANM II, DC II, 2x HS II 3x Trimark I 5x Hammerhead II -- 166K EHP -- 973 DPS @ 15km Geddon 7x MP II (AN Multi) 100mn MWD II, Hvy Cap Booster II, Faint Warp Disruptor 1600 RT, 2x EANM II, 2x ANP II, IFFA I, 2x HS II 3x Trimark I 5x Ogre II -- 101K EHP -- 1077 DPS @ 15km The Geddon may have more punch, but the Abaddon has far more EHP... and it can fit a point and scram. IMO, Abaddon > Geddon at plate ganking. That's not to say that the Geddon isn't pure pwnage, though. :p -Liang Well check this out then Armageddon Lows 2HSII,3 1600 plates tungsten,1 DCII,1 EANMII,1ANPII Meds 1 100MN MWD II,2 CRII Highs 7 MPLII (multi navy) 5 ogre II rigs 3 trimarks 132K EHP 1077 DPS (cap stable for 7 1/2 minutes) With one HSII less and a EAMNII more we get 152k EHP 953 DPS (cap stable for 10minutes) Not bad for a 52 million ship hehe

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