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will there be restrictions on ships used in faction war?

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Syniztur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:03:00 - [31] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Originally by: Syniztur Edited by: Syniztur on 17/05/2008 12:40:01 Originally by: CCP Greyscale No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not. Weak. I mean, I've read all of your arguments/comments here. But think about it, it's supposed to be more RP based. And if you were really interested in RP, would you really be cross-training? Probably not. Those who opted to cross train back in the day obviously had no intention of ever worrying about the RP aspect of the game. It only ever becomes an issue when it affects someone. Who cares if you cross trained. Roll a RP character then you can FW with the rest of the RPers. Otherwise, you are really only wanting to take the 'fish in a barrel' aspect of it and be looking in from the outside... trying to reap the rewards of easy warfare that you aren't actually involved in. Edited: cuz I can't spell Well I actually intend to take part in it fully even doing some RP, and I'm someone who's cross trained to Gallente ships. I haven't decided whether I'll fight for Gallente or Caldari, but if i fight for the Caldari it would absolutely suck to have a year of skill training to be good at flying Gallente ships be useless. It will also mean more people get invovled and not just RPers, which is CCPs obvious intention. That, good sir, is a very valid point. However, one could argue the same thing regarding cross-training due to implemented 'Derf-bats' as some say it 'forces' them to have to fly other ships. Also those who 'specialize' in specifics, then decide later they want to change because, who knows... it just wasn't what they were expecting. Change will always happen. And yes, while I agree that a year+ already invested would be a tragic loss, it also relates back to my previous point that most people never even cared to think about the story line when they started. Kinda like how, I'd wager to say, 98% of the population never went through the tutorial either. -------------------------------------------------- \| Do unto others, before they can do unto you*! \| --------------------------------------------------
Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Syniztur That, good sir, is a very valid point. However, one could argue the same thing regarding cross-training due to implemented 'Derf-bats' as some say it 'forces' them to have to fly other ships. Also those who 'specialize' in specifics, then decide later they want to change because, who knows... it just wasn't what they were expecting. Change will always happen. And yes, while I agree that a year+ already invested would be a tragic loss, it also relates back to my previous point that most people never even cared to think about the story line when they started. Kinda like how, I'd wager to say, 98% of the population never went through the tutorial either. But still you cannot ignore the fact that limiting people to only flying ships of the faction they are fighting will likely turn off a lot of people who've cross trained/are a different race but have good standings with another faction etc. CCP would effectively be shooting themselves in the foot if they did impose that limit. Now I can see why you would want it limited for RP and storyline reasons, however I feel it restrict much of the sandbox nature and exclude too many people.
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:15:00 - [33] You could argue that not allowing alliances to participate also removes the sandbox thing. In it for the state
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:17:00 - [34] The pod pilots taking part in the factional warfare thingy are describedd as "militia", helping their navies against their foes. The navies rely heavily on us to help them reach their goals. I can't see the reason why the navy upper command would refuse help because a pod pilot is not flying their own race, relying so heavily on us. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Syniztur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:24:00 - [35] Originally by: ZenTex The pod pilots taking part in the factional warfare thingy are describedd as "militia", helping their navies against their foes. The navies rely heavily on us to help them reach their goals. I can't see the reason why the navy upper command would refuse help because a pod pilot is not flying their own race, relying so heavily on us. And 'militia' are usually formed by a group of citizens who refuse to fight with/for whatever army/navy is in place for them. They do however band together when a common cause comes about. But 'banding together' doesn't necessarily mean 'joining the team' so to speak. Militia pretty much take matters into their own hands. Armies/Navies have 'rules' they must adhere to during said conflicts. Militia can come and go as they choose to do so. Regular enlisted men/women cannot. Don't expect the upper echelons to help the lower levels and vice versa. NO ALLIANCES! As I stated in another post... because there are so many of these 'we want alliances in FW' posts... it's War! War will crumble the foundation of nations. It splinters friendships, alliances, and families alike. Your 'alliance' should not be allowed for 2 main reasons: 1) CCP said NO! (which should be enough) 2) See above sentences -------------------------------------------------- \| Do unto others, before they can do unto you! \| --------------------------------------------------
Lucia Warbler New Eden United Industries	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:29:00 - [36] Hmm... factional warfare. So, in low sector, what stops your fellow pod pilot from ganking you regardless of fighting on the same side? And I seriously hope there's something in areas designated for faction warfare, that stop your own allies from ganking you! Trust no one, remember? Somehow I only see this as an open path to new innovative ways to beat the machine and kill other pod pilots and take their stuff.
IDesert FoxI Unknown-Heroes	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:54:00 - [37] Haven't read all the replies so apologies if this idea has already been put forward here. I just heard an interesting idea that might give incentives to make Caldari fleets Caldari ships and so on. Make it so that the faction you fight for gives slightly more generous insurance payouts on their race's ships. Not much more, but enough to encourage those to take the bigger and more expensive (yet poor to insure) ships of their faction in to the fray. This might see more faction and tech 2 ships in the mix that more people can afford to fly in to PVP with. _________________________________________ EVE Tribune
Disco Flint The Flaming Sideburn's Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:30:00 - [38] Restricting people to their races ships would mean Caldari wins. Heck, I'd fly blackbirds every day and laugh at the other pitiful ewars.
Tao Han Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:31:00 - [39] So you whiney types want me (caldari bloodlines, flies gallente+caldari ship, but excellent standing with amarr) to be forced to fight for either caldari or gallente, but not amarr whom my standings are great with? Screw you.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:28:00 - [40] Originally by: Forge Lag My Republic Fleet Overdrive has this republicFleetBonusMultiplier = 1.02 data entry. Does it do anything? Could it do anything? Could the functionality be expanded? It doesn't do anything. If you dig around, there were some recent (like in the last 6 months) devposts talking about how their interested in doing something with it eventually...maybe. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:35:00 - [41] Originally by: Tao Han So you whiney types want me (caldari bloodlines, flies gallente+caldari ship, but excellent standing with amarr) to be forced to fight for either caldari or gallente, but not amarr whom my standings are great with? Screw you. No... Standing determine who you can fly for. Not your race. An Amarrain could fly for Gallente if your standings are high enough. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:38:00 - [42] On the ship restriction thing, I think the idea is not only... - not going to happen - completely impractical - against one of the basic concepts of EVE - elitist ...but also not even particularly interesting from a RP standpoint. I mean, if you really can't conceive of people using other race's ships besides the one they're fighting for, you've got an extremely weak imagination. And not a particularly good grasp of history either. The one thing that would be cool about the idea is the fleet visuals. But as far as that goes, it sounds like there'll be latitude for FW players to organize that kind of thing themselves. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:39:00 - [43] Those still maintaining that it should be restricted to each race's ships have yet to answer how that would work with clearly imbalanced PvP abilities between each race's ships (e.g. care to explain how Amarr have effective answers to Min nano gangs not to mention Min still having crazy resists to Amarr weapons by default?). Heck, imagine you are Minmatar with already healthy resists to Amarr weapons. Now you KNOW you will only face Amarr ships so buff those resists further. Amarr are largely stuck with 2 damage types. Min can change that up far more easily. Such issues are less with Caldari/Gallente since they can, to some extent, more easily modify their damage types and change things up with more effective ewar and such. In short...Minmatar would massacre Amarr. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Ezekiel Sulastin Central Research Nexus	Posted - 2008.05.17 16:57:00 - [44] A ship is a tool to an end, and ancestry is only the starting block. The ideology is carried within the current state of the pod pilot. (Also, the immense balance issues mentioned above.) ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Crystal Ship	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:11:00 - [45] While I don't think that a character should be restricted in the type of ship they fly in Factional Warfare, the idea that there should be some type of bonus available for flying for your Birth Race is a good one. An easy way of doing this would be to restrict access to the Faction Specific Racial Ships to characters of the specified Race. ie If you want to get a CNR from a Caldari NPC Corporation then you need to be Caldari yourself. Of course, there'd be no restriction on acquiring the Faction Ships from other players on the Open Market, though you will be paying the players markup. The RP justification for this would be that the Empires aren't just going to allow their cutting edge technology to fall into the hands of potential enemies. Freelance Pod Pilots (Players) however are more likely to keep their eye on the bottom line rather than factional loyalty. As an added incentive, the empires could put a bounty on any of their Faction Ships destroyed while they're being flown by a member of an opposing Faction.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:15:00 - [46] Simple... only Caldari should fight for Caldari in Caldari ships. Only your race should fight for your race in your racial ships. Until CCP fixes it so this only this is possible, FW will just be a pretty dumb idea for a big lag fleet war. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Wren Alterana Minmatar The Baros Syndicate Kissaki Republic	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Wild Rho Restricting ship types for little more than aesthetic reasons is a poor way to go and certainly won't encourage people to get into faction warfare. You "could" offer incentives to use that factions particular ships such as LP or a slight bonus to standings when you make kills in them (e.g. if you're signed up to the Gallente Federation you get slightly better standings boosts or some LP when you make kills with Gallente ships). ^ this Its a reasonable incentive but not overboard, so if you want to be a gallente flying caldari ships for the minmatar then fine, but if your a gallente flying minmatar ships for the minmatar then they like you just a tiny bit more. It'd be tricky to balance at first and it probably wouldn't completely remove rag tag fleets but it would help. _________ Dynamic Maps
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:44:00 - [48] This is as expected, and I can't imagine CCP having done it any other way. I think freedom to fly whatever ship is probably essential. That said, I'm still hoping the opposing fleets will tend to have a general racial flavor. Take Caldari in particular -- a lot of our missile boats are less than ideal for one-on-one PVP (I'm told) and (again, I'm told) don't get used much in that way. But, since FW is aimed at folks without much PVP experience, I'm hoping that we'll see impromptu fleets of missile boats such as have not been seen before. (I like missiles; missiles are were I have the most experience points; I just like missiles. They go boom real pretty.) I'm thinking there will be some roleplay and patriotism that will influence ship choice -- how many Ravens and Drakes do you think we'll see flying for the Amarr? What I'm HOPING is that CCP has found ways to encourage flying "the right kind" of ships without requiring it in any way. Not sure how they'd do that (they are the smart game designers, not me) but I'm thinking stuff like ammo drops -- if there's a "Defend this position at all costs" war zone task for Caldari Militia, we might see a supply bunker or something that provides missiles and railgun ammo for the loyal defenders. A Caldari in an artillery ship would still be welcome, but he'd be encouraged by the logistics to choose a different ship. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Viqtoria Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:48:00 - [49] Hi, my name is Caldari, and my mids are packed with Magnetometric ECM, gg.
muujo Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Haakon Jarl CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother. This is a silly argument. Even in RL, it is even possible to fight against people using the same guns as you. Do people need an excuse to RP there, apart from those being what they can get their hands on? There are many RP reasons to use ships other than those created by your own race. Some Minnies, would RP the use of Gallente ships as a result of background (i.e. gallentes are our friends and allies). Some people in my corp (we are all Minmatar) use Amarrian ships - 'to strike back at our enemies with their own weapons'. Do not discount the use of crosstrained ships just because you think it is neat and fanciable to - it is arguably irrelevant and goes against the nature of choice. Heck, even the US Air Force has contracted Airbus, a European manufacturer to produce plane bodies for them.
Luh Windan Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:43:00 - [51] What is really funny about this thread is that if you look elsewhere you can find other RPrs complaining that their multi race corps wont be able to join in because they are multi-race You can't please all of the people all of the time (Eve in general) You can't please any of the people any of the time (This forum)
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:59:00 - [52] These complaints, are they serious? You want to restrict people to racial ships? Do you have any idea how badly the Caldari will mudstomp the gallente when they know they only need to fit gallente ecm?
Kil'Roy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:08:00 - [53] Edited by: Kil''Roy on 17/05/2008 20:08:55 Edited by: Kil''Roy on 17/05/2008 20:08:11 Originally by: Thorradin These complaints, are they serious? You want to restrict people to racial ships? Do you have any idea how badly the Caldari will mudstomp the gallente when they know they only need to fit gallente ecm? ^^^ That No what, Let's make it so you can't use ecm!
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:10:00 - [54] Edited by: Hannobaal on 17/05/2008 20:10:47 There's absolutely no point, even from an RP back story perspective, to restrict ship types. We are pod pilots choosing voluntarily to fight as an irregular militia force to help a faction. We are not a part of the regular navies. We can fly whatever the hell we want.
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:42:00 - [55] Look at the empyrean war web page, look at the awesome fleets. IT would have looked boring if it was mixed fleets. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:44:00 - [56] i wish ccp would be hard core on this and only let racial/ tec only be used for whatever faction you fight for, but i think there would be too many caldari vs gallente.
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente aurorae pacificas	Posted - 2008.05.17 22:51:00 - [57] I think the difference here is that the RPer/Pve community would love to be taking screenies of fleets of thoraxs and Megas while the PvPers realise that racial fleets have obvious weaknesses that will be exploited en mass, ie racial jamming, nano fits (the minnie/amarr war)and obviously, resistance tanking. Its unfortunate as I can see how cool it would be to see a gallente fleet fighting a caldari one, but as the majority of pvpers here are saying, its totally impractical.
LuthienTinuviel The HIgher Standard	Posted - 2008.05.17 23:14:00 - [58] Edited by: LuthienTinuviel on 17/05/2008 23:14:09 Originally by: Haakon Jarl Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: CCP Greyscale No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not. Hurray for Gallente pilots who fight for the Amarr in Minmatar ships! I blame cross-training. This ^^ CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother. Only problem with that is when it comes to my main Elwe he is fully amarr specced can barely competantly fly any other race (he is a Gallente character) yet his standings are gallente/Minnmitar so I would be reduced to flying a taranis for any FW ops you would like.....
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2008.05.18 00:43:00 - [59] A little real world example of why restricting factions to their own ships is not only silly, but unrealistic: The US has sold hundreds of F-16 fighter jets to various countries around the world [list of countries]. Do you really think that if there was some political upheaval that polarized the world into opposing factions, that the countries who have f-16's in their air force will politely leave them in the hangar and instead use their own 'sides' fighter jets when flying against US air forces? You tell me... -=^=- My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep.
Fugly McTastic	Posted - 2008.05.18 09:40:00 - [60] Thats it!!! I'm gonna sign up my Amarr Char to the Caldari Militia, and fly Gallente ships with minmitard weapons just to **** people off!!!

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