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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.05.16 13:01:00 -
[1]
just wondering, will there be a restriction on the ships you use at war? just seem silly that you would be using gallente ships to fight gallente or caldari to fight caldari...
it would be nice with some kind of bonus to the racial ships, so that the rp element could just stay a little. it is already kind of wierd that there are more then just one type of ships.
meaning if every one used each others tech instead of inventing it's own, then it would at some point become the same elements in the construction of the ships, so there most be a reason why the races chose to use their own ship designs.
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Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.05.17 05:24:00 -
[2]
/drunk on
dunno,
I think is like...
the ships we build are pretty generic... their original design was by the 4 different factions, but now, everybody who can be plugged in can use them....and that the parts are well.. more or less the same...
and yeah, the technology is shared... =P is in the backstory... the most recent mention of it was.. oh remember the jump freighter news thingies? Core complexion was forced to share the tech.. and dunvole for maurader techs...
and Concord... concord ships are the results of all the empire's techs + alot of extra funding.
so yeah, the same elements of the systems are in the T1 ships =P
if you think about it... it HAS to be the case...since any factory in the universe with the plans and raw materials can build them (T1)... so... they have to be pretty standardized across the board....(the parts for T1 ships)
heck, take capital ship for example.. the engines for caldari dreads and Gallente dreads are the same parts.. just one have more than the other...the only difference is how the parts being put together....
so... yeah...
I wouldnt be surpsied if theres no restrictions..
remember... all the factions in eve are humans...
the RP element would be weird if Aliens species using the same ships... (or normal humans using jov ships.)
but hey, we are all humans...so... yeah, the weirdness at worst might seem like an American solider to carry an C-14 instead of M-16.... but hey, in factional warfare.. those who join become militias.. and we all know how militias are a bunch of rabble.....
so I dont think whatever we would be any problems...
hell, even in real life.. most parts for everything is made in China.... the part just gets put together differently =P
/me drunk still on.
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Wren Alterana
Minmatar
The Baros Syndicate
Kissaki Republic
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Posted - 2008.05.17 05:27:00 -
[3]
I two would like to see some race vs. race battles, maybe if you sign up with a certain faction then that faction gives you additional bonuses to ships of their race, nothing o drastic but enough to convince people to fly with their races ships.
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Dynamic Maps |
Syniztur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.17 05:46:00 -
[4]
And if you try to board a ship from a conflicting faction, you automatically get pod'd in the station 
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| Do unto others, before they can do unto you! |
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Spenz
Gallente
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.05.17 05:53:00 -
[5]
Personally I think that faction warfare opens the door for race-specific tech, now that the girly-jove fairness is broken by war and each faction will try and develop tech that will give them an edge in battle (and not share it since warring factions usually don't do that).
Who knows though.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
Druuge Crimson Corporation
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Posted - 2008.05.17 05:57:00 -
[6]
I have no problems with shooting my fellow caldari while driveing a caldari ship.
Why be a patroit when you can be rich?
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LiLChris06
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.17 06:56:00 -
[7]
If there was a bonus it would have to be something simple and equal to every1
I would think 2x shield/armor/structure.
So if your with Gallente faction, and fly amarr, you wont get the 2x bonus.
Unless devs wanna go through the hassle of balancing everything out (if they havent already)
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.17 07:09:00 -
[8]
Yup, that'd be as crazy as Soviets using American bombers.
Seriously though, the Caldari would be ****ed to see a Raven coming at them spewing torps, but why would the Gallente prevent you from using one? As a rule, they'd rather have you in a Raven than an Incursus. Friendly fire isn't that big an issue when all the targeting is done by overview anyways.
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Amastat
Caldari
Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.05.17 07:14:00 -
[9]
CCP has not said anything about ship restrictions, so it's proper to assume: no, there wouldn't be - at least in terms of race.
There will be complexes involved in this, and a lot of them will be having size restrictions. Most of them were said to be mostly cruiser size restrictions. The biggest and most important ones I believe will be anything-goes - I could be off though, but the general idea of what I am saying is what CCP has said in the live-dev blog.
As for the solar systems, they will be treated no differantly then any other solar system, sec status will determine weither or not capitals are allowed.
CCP has not really said a whole lot yet - so we'll have to see, but for now - there is no indication of racial restrictions, and I would imagine CCP is smart enough to not make a restriction like that.
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"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the |
Haakon Jarl
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2008.05.17 07:41:00 -
[10]
I hope there is ship restrictions, if not FW is pointless.
In it for the state |
WhiteSavage
Altruism.
Malice.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 08:36:00 -
[11]
It would be disapointing if you could join any faction you have standings with and fly any ship... race vs race would be what all these movies/pictures are implying? If this becomes another ragtag pvp op... meh
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..My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.17 09:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 17/05/2008 09:10:15
No ship restrictions. No ship bonuses.
You will get tons more tags so thusly buying mods and such with lp will be easy. They likely will be boosting the faction ships to make them far more appealing and cheaper most likely. So using an Apoc navy issue is a good option and it may only cost 200mil or something.
Oh the only restrictions are actually the deadspace restrictions. There will be some black rise systems which are 1/10 deadspace only and such. MWD though will be activated.
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Won Swunglow
Caldari
Dead By Dawn
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Posted - 2008.05.17 10:07:00 -
[13]
Whats wrong with using the enemies weapons against them??
When it comes down to it, a ship is just a means to an end 
I can say for sure I'll be using Amarr ships with minie weapons, nowt wrong with that in my book 
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Raem Civrie
Firma Civrie
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Posted - 2008.05.17 10:45:00 -
[14]
I sincerely doubt it.
I'm not the only one that went deep specialization outside my race's weapons and ships. The empires are damn well happy to get what they can anyway.
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2008.05.17 11:39:00 -
[15]
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Delictum 23216
San Matari.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 11:42:00 -
[16]
Ships carrying pilots with alliance membership cannot take part.
San Matari Official forums |
Taedrin
Gallente
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:09:00 -
[17]
 Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
Hurray for Gallente pilots who fight for the Amarr in Minmatar ships! I blame cross-training.
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Haakon Jarl
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
Hurray for Gallente pilots who fight for the Amarr in Minmatar ships! I blame cross-training.
This ^^
CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother.
In it for the state |
Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:17:00 -
[19]
But then you reduce a whole lot of variety if you restrict it, plus it makes no sense to restrict pilots who've crosstrained, and whol fly ships that are not of the same race as they will fight for.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother.
Yes. Make sure to alienate as many players as possible – it's the penultimate sign of reasonableness.
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Wild Rho
Amarr
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:26:00 -
[21]
Restricting ship types for little more than aesthetic reasons is a poor way to go and certainly won't encourage people to get into faction warfare.
You "could" offer incentives to use that factions particular ships such as LP or a slight bonus to standings when you make kills in them (e.g. if you're signed up to the Gallente Federation you get slightly better standings boosts or some LP when you make kills with Gallente ships).
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother.
Well...on paper it seems like restricting FW to only that faction's ships would be neat but as a practical matter forget it.
Like it or not EVE has never restricted pilots from training to fly whatever they want. Most see this as a good thing rather than choosing to be (say) Gallente at the outset and then forever being stuck with Gallente only ships.
As a result for 5 years players have cross trained all sorts of things. Restricting players to race only ships would gimp most every player in the game.
Additionally, without some serious re-balancing of ships, race only ships for PvP are distinctly unbalanced. Minmatar would frankly wipe the floor with Amarr no problem. It's not even kinda close there. Gallente likewise have a distinct advantage over Caldari in this respect although not as prnounced as the Min/Amarr imbalance.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Andrest Disch
Amarr
Debitum Naturae
Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
This ^^
CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother.
Because the freedom to roll Minmatar and then speciliase in Gallente is completely against the Eve sandbox theory.
And anyways, do you really want to have to fight a fleet of blackbirds with no way to jam them back?
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Haakon Jarl
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:29:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tippia
Yes. Make sure to alienate as many players as possible û it's the penultimate sign of reasonableness.
Pretty please, explain how it would be to alienate players? Last time I checked, the amarr empire had amarrians in it, and the Gallente federation had Gallenteans in it.
In it for the state |
Haakon Jarl
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Andrest Disch
Because the freedom to roll Minmatar and then speciliase in Gallente is completely against the Eve sandbox theory.
And anyways, do you really want to have to fight a fleet of blackbirds with no way to jam them back?
The Minmatar that has specialized in Gallente are still free to use his Gallente ships elsewhere. I thought FW was supposed to be a RP element. If thats not correct then my bad.
In it for the state |
Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:32:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
Originally by: Tippia
Yes. Make sure to alienate as many players as possible û it's the penultimate sign of reasonableness.
Pretty please, explain how it would be to alienate players? Last time I checked, the amarr empire had amarrians in it, and the Gallente federation had Gallenteans in it.
Because quite a few players cross train(e.g i'm Caldari but I can only fly a few Caldari ships but I can fly a lot of Gallente ones), meaning they would be screwed, plus it would be ridiculously unbalanced.
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Syniztur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:38:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Syniztur on 17/05/2008 12:40:01
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
Weak.
I mean, I've read all of your arguments/comments here. But think about it, it's supposed to be more RP based. And if you were really interested in RP, would you really be cross-training? Probably not. Those who opted to cross train back in the day obviously had no intention of ever worrying about the RP aspect of the game.
It only ever becomes an issue when it affects someone. Who cares if you cross trained. Roll a RP character then you can FW with the rest of the RPers. Otherwise, you are really only wanting to take the 'fish in a barrel' aspect of it and be looking in from the outside... trying to reap the rewards of easy warfare that you aren't actually involved in.
*Edited: cuz I can't spell
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| Do unto others, before they can do unto you! |
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:42:00 -
[28]
My Republic Fleet Overdrive has this republicFleetBonusMultiplier = 1.02 data entry. Does it do anything? Could it do anything? Could the functionality be expanded?
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Kieranda
Weyland-Yutani Future Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
Hurray for Gallente pilots who fight for the Amarr in Minmatar ships! I blame cross-training.
This ^^
CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother.
to use a real poor RL analogy: in WW2 it was actually very common that armies used the equipment that was left behind by the enemy and still usable, ie Germans using Soviet T-34 tanks, Soviets using German tanks and so on
so why shouldn't a gallente player fly something different than a gallente vessel?
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Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Syniztur
Edited by: Syniztur on 17/05/2008 12:40:01
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
Weak.
I mean, I've read all of your arguments/comments here. But think about it, it's supposed to be more RP based. And if you were really interested in RP, would you really be cross-training? Probably not. Those who opted to cross train back in the day obviously had no intention of ever worrying about the RP aspect of the game.
It only ever becomes an issue when it affects someone. Who cares if you cross trained. Roll a RP character then you can FW with the rest of the RPers. Otherwise, you are really only wanting to take the 'fish in a barrel' aspect of it and be looking in from the outside... trying to reap the rewards of easy warfare that you aren't actually involved in.
*Edited: cuz I can't spell
Well I actually intend to take part in it fully even doing some RP, and I'm someone who's cross trained to Gallente ships. I haven't decided whether I'll fight for Gallente or Caldari, but if i fight for the Caldari it would absolutely suck to have a year of skill training to be good at flying Gallente ships be useless. It will also mean more people get invovled and not just RPers, which is CCPs obvious intention.
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Syniztur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:03:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jakus Cemendur
Originally by: Syniztur
Edited by: Syniztur on 17/05/2008 12:40:01
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
Weak.
I mean, I've read all of your arguments/comments here. But think about it, it's supposed to be more RP based. And if you were really interested in RP, would you really be cross-training? Probably not. Those who opted to cross train back in the day obviously had no intention of ever worrying about the RP aspect of the game.
It only ever becomes an issue when it affects someone. Who cares if you cross trained. Roll a RP character then you can FW with the rest of the RPers. Otherwise, you are really only wanting to take the 'fish in a barrel' aspect of it and be looking in from the outside... trying to reap the rewards of easy warfare that you aren't actually involved in.
*Edited: cuz I can't spell
Well I actually intend to take part in it fully even doing some RP, and I'm someone who's cross trained to Gallente ships. I haven't decided whether I'll fight for Gallente or Caldari, but if i fight for the Caldari it would absolutely suck to have a year of skill training to be good at flying Gallente ships be useless. It will also mean more people get invovled and not just RPers, which is CCPs obvious intention.
That, good sir, is a very valid point.
However, one could argue the same thing regarding cross-training due to implemented 'Derf-bats' as some say it 'forces' them to have to fly other ships. Also those who 'specialize' in specifics, then decide later they want to change because, who knows... it just wasn't what they were expecting.
Change will always happen. And yes, while I agree that a year+ already invested would be a tragic loss, it also relates back to my previous point that most people never even cared to think about the story line when they started.
Kinda like how, I'd wager to say, 98% of the population never went through the tutorial either.
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| Do unto others, before they can do unto you! |
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Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:06:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Syniztur
That, good sir, is a very valid point.
However, one could argue the same thing regarding cross-training due to implemented 'Derf-bats' as some say it 'forces' them to have to fly other ships. Also those who 'specialize' in specifics, then decide later they want to change because, who knows... it just wasn't what they were expecting.
Change will always happen. And yes, while I agree that a year+ already invested would be a tragic loss, it also relates back to my previous point that most people never even cared to think about the story line when they started.
Kinda like how, I'd wager to say, 98% of the population never went through the tutorial either.
But still you cannot ignore the fact that limiting people to only flying ships of the faction they are fighting will likely turn off a lot of people who've cross trained/are a different race but have good standings with another faction etc. CCP would effectively be shooting themselves in the foot if they did impose that limit.
Now I can see why you would want it limited for RP and storyline reasons, however I feel it restrict much of the sandbox nature and exclude too many people.
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Haakon Jarl
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:15:00 -
[33]
You could argue that not allowing alliances to participate also removes the sandbox thing.
In it for the state |
ZenTex
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:17:00 -
[34]
The pod pilots taking part in the factional warfare thingy are describedd as "militia", helping their navies against their foes. The navies rely heavily on us to help them reach their goals.
I can't see the reason why the navy upper command would refuse help because a pod pilot is not flying their own race, relying so heavily on us.
There's little a sledgehammer can't fix.
If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer.
If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
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Syniztur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:24:00 -
[35]
Originally by: ZenTex
The pod pilots taking part in the factional warfare thingy are describedd as "militia", helping their navies against their foes. The navies rely heavily on us to help them reach their goals.
I can't see the reason why the navy upper command would refuse help because a pod pilot is not flying their own race, relying so heavily on us.
And 'militia' are usually formed by a group of citizens who refuse to fight with/for whatever army/navy is in place for them. They do however band together when a common cause comes about. But 'banding together' doesn't necessarily mean 'joining the team' so to speak.
Militia pretty much take matters into their own hands. Armies/Navies have 'rules' they must adhere to during said conflicts.
Militia can come and go as they choose to do so. Regular enlisted men/women cannot.
Don't expect the upper echelons to help the lower levels and vice versa.
NO ALLIANCES!
As I stated in another post... because there are so many of these 'we want alliances in FW' posts... it's War! War will crumble the foundation of nations. It splinters friendships, alliances, and families alike. Your 'alliance' should not be allowed for 2 main reasons:
1) CCP said NO! (which should be enough)
2) See above sentences
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| Do unto others, before they can do unto you! |
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Lucia Warbler
New Eden United Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:29:00 -
[36]
Hmm... factional warfare.
So, in low sector, what stops your fellow pod pilot from ganking you regardless of fighting on the same side? And I seriously hope there's something in areas designated for faction warfare, that stop your own *allies* from ganking you!
Trust no one, remember? Somehow I only see this as an open path to new innovative ways to beat the machine and kill other pod pilots and take their stuff. 
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IDesert FoxI
Unknown-Heroes
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:54:00 -
[37]
Haven't read all the replies so apologies if this idea has already been put forward here. I just heard an interesting idea that might give incentives to make Caldari fleets Caldari ships and so on. Make it so that the faction you fight for gives slightly more generous insurance payouts on their race's ships. Not much more, but enough to encourage those to take the bigger and more expensive (yet poor to insure) ships of their faction in to the fray. This might see more faction and tech 2 ships in the mix that more people can afford to fly in to PVP with.
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EVE Tribune |
Disco Flint
The Flaming Sideburn's
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2008.05.17 14:30:00 -
[38]
Restricting people to their races ships would mean Caldari wins.
Heck, I'd fly blackbirds every day and laugh at the other pitiful ewars.
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Tao Han
Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2008.05.17 14:31:00 -
[39]
So you whiney types want me (caldari bloodlines, flies gallente+caldari ship, but excellent standing with amarr) to be forced to fight for either caldari or gallente, but not amarr whom my standings are great with?
Screw you.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.05.17 15:28:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Forge Lag
My Republic Fleet Overdrive has this republicFleetBonusMultiplier = 1.02 data entry. Does it do anything? Could it do anything? Could the functionality be expanded?
It doesn't do anything. If you dig around, there were some recent (like in the last 6 months) devposts talking about how their interested in doing something with it eventually...maybe.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
ZenTex
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.17 15:35:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tao Han
So you whiney types want me (caldari bloodlines, flies gallente+caldari ship, but excellent standing with amarr) to be forced to fight for either caldari or gallente, but not amarr whom my standings are great with?
Screw you.
No... Standing determine who you can fly for. Not your race.
An Amarrain could fly for Gallente if your standings are high enough.
There's little a sledgehammer can't fix.
If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer.
If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.05.17 15:38:00 -
[42]
On the ship restriction thing, I think the idea is not only...
- not going to happen
- completely impractical
- against one of the basic concepts of EVE
- elitist
...but also not even particularly interesting from a RP standpoint. I mean, if you really can't conceive of people using other race's ships besides the one they're fighting for, you've got an extremely weak imagination. And not a particularly good grasp of history either.
The one thing that would be cool about the idea is the fleet visuals. But as far as that goes, it sounds like there'll be latitude for FW players to organize that kind of thing themselves.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.05.17 15:39:00 -
[43]
Those still maintaining that it should be restricted to each race's ships have yet to answer how that would work with clearly imbalanced PvP abilities between each race's ships (e.g. care to explain how Amarr have effective answers to Min nano gangs not to mention Min still having crazy resists to Amarr weapons by default?).
Heck, imagine you are Minmatar with already healthy resists to Amarr weapons. Now you KNOW you will only face Amarr ships so buff those resists further. Amarr are largely stuck with 2 damage types. Min can change that up far more easily.
Such issues are less with Caldari/Gallente since they can, to some extent, more easily modify their damage types and change things up with more effective ewar and such.
In short...Minmatar would massacre Amarr.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.05.17 16:57:00 -
[44]
A ship is a tool to an end, and ancestry is only the starting block. The ideology is carried within the current state of the pod pilot.
(Also, the immense balance issues mentioned above.)
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WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Crystal Ship
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Posted - 2008.05.17 17:11:00 -
[45]
While I don't think that a character should be restricted in the type of ship they fly in Factional Warfare, the idea that there should be some type of bonus available for flying for your Birth Race is a good one. An easy way of doing this would be to restrict access to the Faction Specific Racial Ships to characters of the specified Race.
ie If you want to get a CNR from a Caldari NPC Corporation then you need to be Caldari yourself. Of course, there'd be no restriction on acquiring the Faction Ships from other players on the Open Market, though you will be paying the players markup.
The RP justification for this would be that the Empires aren't just going to allow their cutting edge technology to fall into the hands of potential enemies. Freelance Pod Pilots (Players) however are more likely to keep their eye on the bottom line rather than factional loyalty.
As an added incentive, the empires could put a bounty on any of their Faction Ships destroyed while they're being flown by a member of an opposing Faction.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.05.17 17:15:00 -
[46]
Simple... only Caldari should fight for Caldari in Caldari ships. Only your race should fight for your race in your racial ships. Until CCP fixes it so this only this is possible, FW will just be a pretty dumb idea for a big lag fleet war.
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Wren Alterana
Minmatar
The Baros Syndicate
Kissaki Republic
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Posted - 2008.05.17 17:17:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Wild Rho
Restricting ship types for little more than aesthetic reasons is a poor way to go and certainly won't encourage people to get into faction warfare.
You "could" offer incentives to use that factions particular ships such as LP or a slight bonus to standings when you make kills in them (e.g. if you're signed up to the Gallente Federation you get slightly better standings boosts or some LP when you make kills with Gallente ships).
^ this
Its a reasonable incentive but not overboard, so if you want to be a gallente flying caldari ships for the minmatar then fine, but if your a gallente flying minmatar ships for the minmatar then they like you just a tiny bit more.
It'd be tricky to balance at first and it probably wouldn't completely remove rag tag fleets but it would help.
_________
Dynamic Maps |
Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.17 17:44:00 -
[48]
This is as expected, and I can't imagine CCP having done it any other way. I think freedom to fly whatever ship is probably essential.
That said, I'm still hoping the opposing fleets will tend to have a general racial flavor. Take Caldari in particular -- a lot of our missile boats are less than ideal for one-on-one PVP (I'm told) and (again, I'm told) don't get used much in that way. But, since FW is aimed at folks without much PVP experience, I'm hoping that we'll see impromptu fleets of missile boats such as have not been seen before. (I like missiles; missiles are were I have the most experience points; I just like missiles. They go boom real pretty.)
I'm thinking there will be some roleplay and patriotism that will influence ship choice -- how many Ravens and Drakes do you think we'll see flying for the Amarr? What I'm HOPING is that CCP has found ways to encourage flying "the right kind" of ships without requiring it in any way. Not sure how they'd do that (they are the smart game designers, not me) but I'm thinking stuff like ammo drops -- if there's a "Defend this position at all costs" war zone task for Caldari Militia, we might see a supply bunker or something that provides missiles and railgun ammo for the loyal defenders. A Caldari in an artillery ship would still be welcome, but he'd be encouraged by the logistics to choose a different ship.
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Ironfleet.com |
Viqtoria
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.17 17:48:00 -
[49]
Hi, my name is Caldari, and my mids are packed with Magnetometric ECM, gg.
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muujo
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.05.17 19:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother.
This is a silly argument.
Even in RL, it is even possible to fight against people using the same guns as you. Do people need an excuse to RP there, apart from those being what they can get their hands on?
There are many RP reasons to use ships other than those created by your own race.
Some Minnies, would RP the use of Gallente ships as a result of background (i.e. gallentes are our friends and allies).
Some people in my corp (we are all Minmatar) use Amarrian ships - 'to strike back at our enemies with their own weapons'.
Do not discount the use of crosstrained ships just because you think it is neat and fanciable to - it is arguably irrelevant and goes against the nature of choice. Heck, even the US Air Force has contracted Airbus, a European manufacturer to produce plane bodies for them.
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Luh Windan
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.05.17 19:43:00 -
[51]
What is really funny about this thread is that if you look elsewhere you can find other RPrs complaining that their multi race corps wont be able to join in because they are multi-race
You can't please all of the people all of the time (Eve in general)
You can't please any of the people any of the time (This forum)
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.17 19:59:00 -
[52]
These complaints, are they serious?
You want to restrict people to racial ships?
Do you have any idea how badly the Caldari will mudstomp the gallente when they know they only need to fit gallente ecm?
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Kil'Roy
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:08:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Kil''Roy on 17/05/2008 20:08:55
Edited by: Kil''Roy on 17/05/2008 20:08:11
Originally by: Thorradin
These complaints, are they serious?
You want to restrict people to racial ships?
Do you have any idea how badly the Caldari will mudstomp the gallente when they know they only need to fit gallente ecm?
^^^
That
No what, Let's make it so you can't use ecm!
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:10:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 17/05/2008 20:10:47
There's absolutely no point, even from an RP back story perspective, to restrict ship types.
We are pod pilots choosing voluntarily to fight as an irregular militia force to help a faction. We are not a part of the regular navies. We can fly whatever the hell we want.
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Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:42:00 -
[55]
Look at the empyrean war web page, look at the awesome fleets. IT would have looked boring if it was mixed fleets.
Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:44:00 -
[56]
i wish ccp would be hard core on this and only let racial/ tec only be used for whatever faction you fight for, but i think there would be too many caldari vs gallente.
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
aurorae pacificas
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:51:00 -
[57]
I think the difference here is that the RPer/Pve community would love to be taking screenies of fleets of thoraxs and Megas while the PvPers realise that racial fleets have obvious weaknesses that will be exploited en mass, ie racial jamming, nano fits (the minnie/amarr war)and obviously, resistance tanking.
Its unfortunate as I can see how cool it would be to see a gallente fleet fighting a caldari one, but as the majority of pvpers here are saying, its totally impractical.
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LuthienTinuviel
The HIgher Standard
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Posted - 2008.05.17 23:14:00 -
[58]
Edited by: LuthienTinuviel on 17/05/2008 23:14:09
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
Hurray for Gallente pilots who fight for the Amarr in Minmatar ships! I blame cross-training.
This ^^
CCP please be reasonable. FW without Gallenteans flying Gallente and Amarr flying Amarr is pointless. Isnt it supposed to be FACTION warfare, not mixed fleets like any other fight in EVE? Pure fleets will also be a great tool for you when it comes to ship balance as you will clearly see the different races against eachother.
Only problem with that is when it comes to my main Elwe he is fully amarr specced can barely competantly fly any other race (he is a Gallente character) yet his standings are gallente/Minnmitar so I would be reduced to flying a taranis for any FW ops you would like.....
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Billy Sastard
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:43:00 -
[59]
A little real world example of why restricting factions to their own ships is not only silly, but unrealistic:
The US has sold hundreds of F-16 fighter jets to various countries around the world [list of countries].
Do you really think that if there was some political upheaval that polarized the world into opposing factions, that the countries who have f-16's in their air force will politely leave them in the hangar and instead use their own 'sides' fighter jets when flying against US air forces?
You tell me...
-=^=-
My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep. |
Fugly McTastic
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Posted - 2008.05.18 09:40:00 -
[60]
Thats it!!! I'm gonna sign up my Amarr Char to the Caldari Militia, and fly Gallente ships with minmitard weapons just to **** people off!!!
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.18 10:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Fugly McTastic
Thats it!!! I'm gonna sign up my Amarr Char to the Caldari Militia, and fly Gallente ships with minmitard weapons just to **** people off!!!
May I suggest Gallente drone boat + Minny drones? Your multi-culti ways will be far more noticable that way than if you use some silly faction guns and ammo.
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Juraka Furo
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Posted - 2008.05.18 10:22:00 -
[62]
If I'm an American Marine using a German gun, does that make me a traitor?
No. It just so happens that a german gun is better than an american gun.
(Hypothetical situation above. I actually have no clue which guns are better or whatever)
As long as you are fighting for your faction, I don't think they would care if you're flying a pink sausage through space.
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2008.05.18 10:58:00 -
[63]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No. The only factional distinctions being made are based on factional standings. Your race, bloodline and ship type have no effect. The only thing the empires care about is if you're trusted or not.
now i might have missed this part, cuz i haven't gone through the entire devblog, but does this mean that if u have low standing towards a certain race, u will not be able to fight for them? hehe so does this mean that missionrunners get an edge with this cuz most have pretty hi standing towards the empire their doing missions for. Would actually be nice if having hi standing would actually mean something for a change.
_______________________________________________________
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
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Fwaps Continuously
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Posted - 2008.05.18 11:24:00 -
[64]
i'm not really getting the jist of those who are proposing race specific ship restrictions - the RP aspect is not a big enough justification - sounds like a limiting rule just for the sheer hell of it. 
My main toon is caldari and it is completely obvious to me that caldari ships completely suck at PvP - unless they quickly invent some form of long range warp-scrambling missle that can be loaded into any launcher (or at least a combat utility drone that does the same thing). Until that happens, I'm going to make the best of the situation. I'll be flying a couple of Thorax and Britix ships (maybe a mega - occassionaly).
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Veldya
Caldari
Shadow Industries Corpororation Limited
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Posted - 2008.05.18 11:33:00 -
[65]
If it was real faction vs faction then Caldari would crush anyone else. Caldari EW is the best.
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Valan
The Fated
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.05.18 13:14:00 -
[66]
Please all stick to your faction when choosing a ship.
I need to know what damage type and jammers to bring.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Haakon Jarl
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2008.05.18 13:23:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Veldya
If it was real faction vs faction then Caldari would crush anyone else. Caldari EW is the best.
Didnt the alliance tournament proove that EW is not always what wins the day?
In it for the state |
Ambien Torca
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Posted - 2008.05.18 13:42:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Ambien Torca on 18/05/2008 13:42:17
Not always but more often than not. ECM is very powerful addition to any fight and honestly if EVE was going for realism every race would have dedicated ECM platforms in use. Same goes for extended-range webbing ships.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.05.18 15:07:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Haraldhardrade
Look at the empyrean war web page, look at the awesome fleets. IT would have looked boring if it was mixed fleets.
I agree... the thought of pure faction vs faction is what makes the whole idea intriguing. I'm not complaining about the way they have it set up, I just think if you are going to do something like this, then CCP is going about it all wrong. But either way, I'm going to have fun participating... just not as much fun as I thought it would be.
Heck, at least try it the right way first... then later let people swap around ships and races to different militias. But I think this Eve community deserves to TRY it correctly before mixed fleets ruin the intrigue. Has CCP learned anything from the past. There's no harm in giving pure faction vs pure faction a try.
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Euriti
Gallente
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.05.18 15:44:00 -
[70]
Caldari would roflstomp everyone because of ECM and selectable damage types while tanking for opponents dmg types.
Bad idea.
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Kailiani
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Posted - 2008.05.18 17:29:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Mika Meroko
and Concord... concord ships are the results of all the empire's techs + alot of extra funding.
Wish I could fire a MASSIVE hybrid round that has lasers attached to it, and fires a volley of missiles before impact!!
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Grendelsbane
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Posted - 2008.05.18 17:40:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Grendelsbane on 18/05/2008 17:41:00
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Ships carrying pilots with alliance membership cannot take part.
Bleh. Making it a pointless exercise for many, and it certainly won't make me want to play EVE more often that I do now... I mean, missions = mind numbing boredom induced lobotomy, and there isn't always a good alliance related fight to jump into... That just means I go find something else to do. FW could another cool thing to do, but, I guess not.
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Nachshon
Caldari
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.05.18 17:53:00 -
[73]
You also have to consider that not all factions are monolithic, in racial terms. The Minmatar in particular are a racial hodgepodge.
My missiles WILL serve the Republic.
____________________________________
Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship.
The True Meaning of Freedom
My v |
Nitemare111
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.18 19:03:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Nitemare111 on 18/05/2008 19:03:39
And, of course some of the dumber RP types are crying YET AGAIN. "Oh, noes! We're not the special ones any more! If you're going to have faction wars, you need to do it OUR way!"
Look, you want to fly racial specific, you go right ahead. And when you repeatedly get stomped and podded by someone exploiting your fleet's weaknesses, we'll all happily laugh at you.
Hey, I'm Minmatar, and mostly fly Matar ships. Why should I be restricted from flying my Angel and Gallente ships because you twerps are busy roleplaying your little elf/dwarf wars? Gah, CCP tries to do something to add a little spice and the babies start whining their heads off because "It's not the way I want it!!!!"
Go play Conan, you losers. You're as bad as the isk sellers and macroers.
------
"When in doubt, aim for the crotch."
"There's no problem that the application of suitable firepower cannot fix."
Originally by: A Belief
Nothing is yours until it's ISK in your wallet. So it goes. |
Gwendion
Gallente
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2008.05.18 19:17:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Disco Flint
Restricting people to their races ships would mean Caldari wins.
Heck, I'd fly blackbirds every day and laugh at the other pitiful ewars.
Out of Touch lately?
Sure, ECM might work, wont work when you cant TARGET anyone when your range is crap :P
Caldari would get thrown to the floor by Minmatar ships and made to lick their boots. Amarr would do the same to Gallente.
-------------------------------------------------------------
That aside, I do support SOME SORT of Faction ONLY battlegrounds. Meaning if you fight for one side, you MUST fly their ships. That would be fun.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.18 19:26:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gwendion
Caldari would get thrown to the floor by Minmatar ships and made to lick their boots. Amarr would do the same to Gallente.
Yes, but since the fight seems to be divided into Caldari vs. Gallente and Minny vs. Amarr, the fights you describe wouldn't happen anyway.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.19 02:50:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Haakon Jarl
Originally by: Veldya
If it was real faction vs faction then Caldari would crush anyone else. Caldari EW is the best.
Didnt the alliance tournament proove that EW is not always what wins the day?
You mean the tournament that had a setup and structure you won't find in real PVP? Also, it wasn't teams having to use a certain faction ship, with the other team knowing the faction.
I can tell you right now, if you bring 100 people to fight my 100 people, I'm leading all Caldari, and you're leading all of a single race's ships, your fleet is going to get manhandled. Knowing what racial jammers to load on my ECM boats would be above and beyond what you're going to take on. You could try sensor damps, but iirc, the Scorpion has range with ECM that trumps any damp boat.
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soldieroffortune 258
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Posted - 2008.05.19 02:58:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Spenz
Personally I think that faction warfare opens the door for race-specific tech, now that the girly-jove fairness is broken by war and each faction will try and develop tech that will give them an edge in battle (and not share it since warring factions usually don't do that).
Who knows though.
at that comment, yes i agree, that is a good idea, to have race specific technology, and it will only be accessible in that factions space (maybe allies space as well if its like Minmatar and Gallente VS. Amarr and Caldari) and somehow could only be used if you are fighting for that faction, like since they are forming "militias" its war only technology, like you have to be fighting with them to be using it, and to curb some of those who are sneaky, if you are caught with that equipment on your ship, and not in a "militia", it will be like flying to a stargate with some Mindflood on board your ship  I mean of course they would give you a warning, like if you quit the faction for some reason, it gives you a warning to remove all military equipment off of your ship, and for those people who turn off warnings then they can suffer teh consequences, like i remember this one guy who stole from a dominix right in front of him because he turned off the "this is not your wreck and you will be a thief" warning, kinda dumb if you ask me, i keep all my warnings on, just in case of things like that, and it has saved me a couple of times
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Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.05.19 03:29:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Syniztur
Weak.
I mean, I've read all of your arguments/comments here. But think about it, it's supposed to be more RP based. And if you were really interested in RP, would you really be cross-training? Probably not. Those who opted to cross train back in the day obviously had no intention of ever worrying about the RP aspect of the game.
It only ever becomes an issue when it affects someone. Who cares if you cross trained. Roll a RP character then you can FW with the rest of the RPers. Otherwise, you are really only wanting to take the 'fish in a barrel' aspect of it and be looking in from the outside... trying to reap the rewards of easy warfare that you aren't actually involved in.
*Edited: cuz I can't spell
Hmm. The Dev Blog itself says that the RP aspect is secondary to promoting small-gang warfare. DevBlog also says RP is secondary to using factional warfare as a step into 0.0 life.
Besides that, I'm a roleplayer. I'm cross trained in Gallente and Minmatar. I made that decision after I was already with my current Guristas pirate corp. Thank you for sitting in a Newb corp and telling us how RPers think and act.
_______
Pirating 101: A Basic Course |
Kristina Jackson
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Posted - 2008.05.19 05:13:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Marlenus
Take Caldari in particular -- a lot of our missile boats are less than ideal for one-on-one PVP (I'm told) and (again, I'm told) don't get used much in that way.
Yeah, 1 vs 1, but a fleet of 20 Drakes unloading a volley of 140 heavy missiles onto some poor unsuspecting BS is a sight to behold. And for the record, the BS just melts
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Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.19 05:26:00 -
[81]
I'm a Minmatar pilot. I was a slave for 20 years, in service on Caldari ships.
Why would I abandon my history? Besides, can't you see how delicious it is to kill Caldari slavers with their own guns?
*points to the piles of shrink-wrapped boxes in the back of her Drake's hold*
See those boxes there? You better believe that they're Caldari Navy issue missiles. They all have a special message from me to the betrayers of trust and liberty - that message is, simply, "die!"
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.05.19 05:26:00 -
[82]
I don't want any racial ship restrictions, but I would much MUCH prefer a racial ship BONUS.
Even if it was a very small random bonus like 2% or 3% cap or shield or armor recharge rate, or whatever. Or even a small bonus to whatever ranks or lp awards we will be getting.
Enough to maybe get people to rationalize staying with the races ships, ya know?
I just like the thought of racial gang stuff.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.05.19 12:45:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Nitemare111
And, of course some of the dumber RP types are crying YET AGAIN. "Oh, noes! We're not the special ones any more! If you're going to have faction wars, you need to do it OUR way!"
no one is whining as much as you are in this discussion. the fact is, from the start of Eve we've seen pics and videos of massive faction fleets... we see missions with massive faction fleets... its all about faction ships vs faction ships... NOT MIXED FLEETS. So yea, its kinda disappointing to see FW simply ignore what has been depicted for 5+ years.
Quote:
Look, you want to fly racial specific, you go right ahead. And when you repeatedly get stomped and podded by someone exploiting your fleet's weaknesses, we'll all happily laugh at you.
something a 4year old would say. listen, as it is now, people will fly the best ships for pvping... gee... lets have a faction war with nothing but minmatar and gallente ships. it more and more sounds to me like just a large laggy mixed fleet battle in empire. we have those in 0.0... this brings nothing new to the table. if we all flew race specific ships, we'd all have the same weaknesses as everyone else. we'd all know what to fit, what ammos to use... and yes, this is something new and intriguing to many. not to mention its logical. who would of overlooked that?
Quote:
Hey, I'm Minmatar, and mostly fly Matar ships. Why should I be restricted from flying my Angel and Gallente ships because you twerps are busy roleplaying your little elf/dwarf wars? Gah, CCP tries to do something to add a little spice and the babies start whining their heads off because "It's not the way I want it!!!!"
CCP never said FW was for everyone. Seems if there was a restriction you'd be happy since thats all you fly anyway. Its not so much a roleplay as you may think. I never roleplayed in my life, and I'd love to see race specific ships. It's a new change to something that makes sense. You don't make sense.
Quote:
Go play Conan, you losers. You're as bad as the isk sellers and macroers.
somebody needs a girlfriend! lol
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Ezekiel Sulastin
Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.05.21 17:12:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 21/05/2008 17:14:41
Originally by: Pithecanthropus and other whiners
Restrict ships so it looks like how the NPCs fight and because we should have faction wars restricted to make it look thus
You forget something:
YOU ARE NOT THE EMPIRE.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a privateer given a letter of marque to go shoot the opposition. Why would an empire restrict you from choosing the best tool for the job? They want victory. They understand that it's not the originator of the ship design (who is often independent of the manufacturer), but the ideology of the pilot that matters.
((Also, on a pure gameplay note, restricting races would be a horrible idea (see: all the Caldari pilots above). I *HIGHLY* doubt races are balanced for pure combat against each other, and you would be restricting players without cause and pretty much causing headaches for all. Not to mention that the NPC fights you mention work on totally different rules from player fights - ever check out NPC ewar, guns, etc.?))
You are a capsuleer. You are better than the empires. You are ABOVE the empires. You have the freedom to choose what to use at any moment. If you must maintain loyalty to a particular class of ship that's likely NOT EVEN MADE BY SAID EMPIRE but another man like yourself, go ahead. However, don't drag the rest of us capsuleers to your level with arbitrary restrictions.
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WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
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