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Why removing local would be bad.

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Krystal Demishy	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:32:00 - [1] Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 18/05/2008 20:32:48 No local = More people scared of 0.0 and low sec = Bigger gangs = More gate camps = More blobs = Bad We want more little gangs, people splitted in various places, not people scared of what they could find on the next gate and stuck camping/blobbing/lagging systems and battles.
Oedus Caro Caldari Cross Roads Ouroboros Cross Combine	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:42:00 - [2] Alternatively: No local = People have a much better chance to slip around undetected = More people eking out a living in low- and null-sec = Good Just a theory.
Krystal Demishy	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:44:00 - [3] Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 18/05/2008 20:44:14 It could be, and honestly i hope that people would be not scared to blob like sheeps :D Not having local could be funny, but knowing how the people react to changes in eve make me a bit worried
Wren Alterana Minmatar The Baros Syndicate Kissaki Republic	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:46:00 - [4] yes but the vast majority of the forums are pushing for a removal of local, so it would be a good change. _________ Dynamic Maps
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:47:00 - [5] Originally by: Wren Alterana majority of the forums != Majority of the playerbase. _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
Oedus Caro Caldari Cross Roads Ouroboros Cross Combine	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:49:00 - [6] Originally by: RigelKentaurus Originally by: Wren Alterana majority of the forums != Majority of the playerbase. Indeed. So, where do we find out what the player base is collectively thinking?
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:52:00 - [7] Edited by: Amastat on 18/05/2008 20:54:23 Edited by: Amastat on 18/05/2008 20:52:59 Your both idiots and are completely off. No local would remove chat, and help with lag a bit - but that's really the only useful thing about it really. The bad stuff is that you can't see who all is in the same system, so that makes it less a convince for BOTH the prey and the hunter. The hunter's going to have a harder time even realizing who's in local, and make a lot more effort with the scanner. While the prey is more at risk of being jumped without even seeing it coming. You have no way of telling if any allied groups are nearby, so it creates a pretty bad communications problem. You also have no idea who you are scanning down is friend or foe, talk about a waste of time looking for a red to kill. This would also make the abilitiy for 0.0 alliances to even defend their own territory impossible, it's already hard enough for a alliance to even remotly secure most of their territory. Intel networks would be rendered useless. No capital pilot can navigate through 0.0 or low sec and have a stable frame of mind. This would kill off a lot of capitals - most people would not be willing to risk that much ISK because local was removed and it was too dangerous. The demand would crash and no producers would want to get into the capital market ever again. This probably would make a lot of people not want to even PvP in general anymore - which would completely devastate the markets. There would really be no safe place, even in dock - only cloaking. Everytime you undock, you have no idea if your being camped or not. This list could go on for another 5 threads if I wanted to spend that kinda time. If the vast majority of the forums thinks that local can be removed without any consequences, well - must be the vocal majority, because we are having a mass collection of idiots. The only way it could work is if local was removed and something else was put in it's place - like a better system scanner - however it would be incredibly annoying having to spam your scanner button 24-7, it's more work than play if thats the case. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Oedus Caro Indeed. So, where do we find out what the player base is collectively thinking? CCP would have to code some poll tools for that purpose. _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
cal nereus Koshaku Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.18 20:56:00 - [9] I remember a Dev saying he was considering replacing local chat with constellation chat. --- Join BH-DL Skills
Oedus Caro Caldari Cross Roads Ouroboros Cross Combine	Posted - 2008.05.18 21:00:00 - [10] Edited by: Oedus Caro on 18/05/2008 21:02:56 Originally by: Amastat Edited by: Amastat on 18/05/2008 20:52:59 Your both idiots and are completely off. [stuff] This would also make the abilitiy for 0.0 alliances to even defend their own territory impossible, it's already hard enough for a alliance to even remotly secure most of their territory. [stuff] First off, thanks. Calling people idiots does a lot to bolster an argument, I must assume? Seriously, shove off. Second, I have actually anticipated the bit about 0.0 defense - you might read my post in the other front-page local thread. My initial post here was not an attempt to seriously argue in either direction; it was just an imitation of the OP's, created to (hopefully) demonstrate the weakness of his style of argument (no offense to the OP intended).
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:04:00 - [11] my main problem is that local is too powerful, but the onboard scanner isnt quite powerful enough.
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:20:00 - [12] Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: RigelKentaurus Originally by: Wren Alterana majority of the forums != Majority of the playerbase. Indeed. So, where do we find out what the player base is collectively thinking? a fine collection of lies ------------- 'Don't try to learn Eve all at once, otherwise your brain will explode' - Albert Einstein ------------
Wasted Mind Gallente Syntech Research and Development Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:24:00 - [13] Edited by: Wasted Mind on 18/05/2008 22:25:13 Removing local will never happen. In an mmo not having a local chat breaks lines of communication especially amongst new players. Sure there is corp chat but generally that doesnt cut it. And as far as the majority is concerned people base that off the forums. Generally speaking about 25% of a mmo community ever bother to use the ingame forums. I know a couple people from 2003 that still dont bother coming here.
Securion Wolfheart Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Wasted Mind Edited by: Wasted Mind on 18/05/2008 22:25:13 Removing local will never happen. In an mmo not having a local chat breaks lines of communication especially amongst new players. Sure there is corp chat but generally that doesnt cut it. And as far as the majority is concerned people base that off the forums. Generally speaking about 25% of a mmo community ever bother to use the ingame forums. I know a couple people from 2003 that still dont bother coming here. Constellation chat...? The difference between a Pirate and an Anti-Pirate is that an Anti-Pirate fights ships fitted with guns...
keuel Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:34:00 - [15] Removing local is bad, yes we can enter system undectected, but then, pirates and 0.0 camp gates will appear more often. Also, remove local will give a major advantage to covops guys, you will never know if one appears in system anymore. Quote: No local = More people scared of 0.0 and low sec = Bigger gangs = More gate camps = More blobs = Bad We want more little gangs, people splitted in various places, not people scared of what they could find on the next gate and stuck camping/blobbing/lagging systems and battles. Agreed
Zurrar Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:46:00 - [16] as i stated in the hic cry post... use a scout... its uber... no need to see local...get over it Originally by: Darla Dawson Quit, and go play wow I slaughter the english language better than a isk farmer. I love you.
Zurrar Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:47:00 - [17] Originally by: keuel Edited by: keuel on 18/05/2008 22:43:49 Removing local is bad, yes we can enter system undectected, but then, pirates and 0.0 camp gates will appear more often. Also, remove local will give a major advantage to covops guys, you will never know if one appears in system anymore. Quote: No local = More people scared of 0.0 and low sec = Bigger gangs = More gate camps = More blobs = Bad We want more little gangs, people splitted in various places, not people scared of what they could find on the next gate and stuck camping/blobbing/lagging systems and battles. Agreed Edit: If you don¦t want to have local, just click in a 'x' mark at the upper coner of your chat and oh, wow, no more local for you. End of Story KEUEL! ill be seeing you in sissi! Originally by: Darla Dawson Quit, and go play wow I slaughter the english language better than a isk farmer. I love you.
keuel Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Zurrar Originally by: keuel Edited by: keuel on 18/05/2008 22:43:49 Removing local is bad, yes we can enter system undectected, but then, pirates and 0.0 camp gates will appear more often. Also, remove local will give a major advantage to covops guys, you will never know if one appears in system anymore. Quote: No local = More people scared of 0.0 and low sec = Bigger gangs = More gate camps = More blobs = Bad We want more little gangs, people splitted in various places, not people scared of what they could find on the next gate and stuck camping/blobbing/lagging systems and battles. Agreed Edit: If you don¦t want to have local, just click in a 'x' mark at the upper coner of your chat and oh, wow, no more local for you. End of Story KEUEL! ill be seeing you in sissi! All right, in sisi or in tq (if we¦re blues) you decide :D
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: RigelKentaurus Originally by: Wren Alterana majority of the forums != Majority of the playerbase. Indeed. So, where do we find out what the player base is collectively thinking? You don't. The development of eve is not democratic, nor should it be. Game companies have gone bankrupt and failed in the past by pandering to whatever the playerbase said they wanted. Turns out, given a choice, most people make the wrong choice. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Ion Knight	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:04:00 - [20] Wasted got it in one. But just to add to this point if eve does do this im leaving along with about half there player base. Anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid or hasnt thought about the amount of problems it will create over the benefits. No Local = No idea were anyone is = People stop roaming = massive increase in gate camps (as noone will know what system the gate camps will be = less skill involved = people get bored = people quit eve Simple.
cal nereus Koshaku Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:17:00 - [21] Constellation chat instead of local chat? Anyone? --- Skills
keuel Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:32:00 - [22] Originally by: cal nereus Constellation chat instead of local chat? Anyone? Never, also, constellation chat is optional, so nobody would join it, unless ccp states that the channel would be a obrigated channel.
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:37:00 - [23] Using logical operators between random words doesn't produce a valid argument, but nice try. _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/
Praxis1452 Finite Horizon Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:39:00 - [24] If you remove local and don't replace it how will people kill one another? Just gate camp because that's the only sure way to catch something? Spend 10 minutes going through every system constantly hitting scanner while warping to celestial objects to check for targets? If you remove local you've got to replace it with something. Got something on scanner. Cool, could be a POS with 50 billion ships and noone actually in them. Then what, people just spam ships at pos' so the hunter can't actually find the target before they cloak or log as soon as they see something new on scanner? -------------------------------------------- ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it"
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Oedus Caro Alternatively: No local = People have a much better chance to slip around undetected = More people eking out a living in low- and null-sec = Good Just a theory. That's how I see it as well. Without local some people will move back to empire and others will try and live out in the more remote systems quietly without attracting alot of attention.
cal nereus Koshaku Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:43:00 - [26] Edited by: cal nereus on 18/05/2008 23:43:11 You could replace local chat with the constellation chat and an improved scanner. Just a thought. I don't mind either way to be honest. --- Skills
Lord JoeBlack	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:45:00 - [27] You all assume removing local wouldn't be accompanied with other means to gather intel. It obviously would have to. That means doing so would only add more depth to the game. More tactical options. Sounds like a good thing to me.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Wild Rho That's how I see it as well. Without local some people will move back to empire and others will try and live out in the more remote systems quietly without attracting alot of attention. CCP have already said they won't remove local until they have developed a way for people who are paying attention to maintain the current level of safety. Some kind of enhanced scanner system to see enemies in warp to you etc would do the trick. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
cal nereus Koshaku Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Nyphur CCP have already said they won't remove local until they have developed a way for people who are paying attention to maintain the current level of safety. Some kind of enhanced scanner system to see enemies in warp to you etc would do the trick. Seems fair enough. I guess we can leave it at then. G'luck CCP. o7 --- Skills
Praxis1452 Finite Horizon Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Wild Rho That's how I see it as well. Without local some people will move back to empire and others will try and live out in the more remote systems quietly without attracting alot of attention. CCP have already said they won't remove local until they have developed a way for people who are paying attention to maintain the current level of safety. Some kind of enhanced scanner system to see enemies in warp to you etc would do the trick. removing local would be BETTER for the prey. Seriously have a POS full of Ravens anything warping in you will see on scanner way before they figure out which belt you are in. This also means cloaked ships are the only ones that can tackle in an effective manner. It also means that staying aligned along with a cloaking delay on the tackler means anyone paying attention will likely get out. If you are semi-afk ratting and are ganked then it's their own fault. -------------------------------------------- ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it"
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:03:00 - [31] ------------------------------------------ Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Krystal Demishy Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 18/05/2008 20:32:48 No local = More people scared of 0.0 and low sec = Bigger gangs = More gate camps = More blobs = Bad We want more little gangs, people splitted in various places, not people scared of what they could find on the next gate and stuck camping/blobbing/lagging systems and battles. A lot of these sorts of complaints about removing local or making it so only active speakers show up would be solved by un-nerfing warp core stabs. People are already scared - scared to commit to combat, because once you do, it soon becomes apparent who the "losing" party is, and they get scrammed. If people have to make a clear cut yes-no on whether to commit, they're more cautious and they'll bring the largest blob they can. If you want more small gangs and less blobs, give people the option to choose hit and run tactics or more damage/tanking mods. It'd also make more work for heavy interdictor pilots.
keuel Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Praxis1452 Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Wild Rho That's how I see it as well. Without local some people will move back to empire and others will try and live out in the more remote systems quietly without attracting alot of attention. CCP have already said they won't remove local until they have developed a way for people who are paying attention to maintain the current level of safety. Some kind of enhanced scanner system to see enemies in warp to you etc would do the trick. removing local would be BETTER for the prey. Seriously have a POS full of Ravens anything warping in you will see on scanner way before they figure out which belt you are in. This also means cloaked ships are the only ones that can tackle in an effective manner. It also means that staying aligned along with a cloaking delay on the tackler means anyone paying attention will likely get out. If you are semi-afk ratting and are ganked then it's their own fault. Better? I don¦t think so, with no local, that would be more camp gates in system with hics camping, the only way to bypass that is only with recon or cov ops and with a scout as Zurrar said, seriously, people just want to have local removed to not get ganked and being spotted by someone else and then have another gang upon on you, and also will make a great advantage for ppl who fly recons.
Bourgeoisvio	Posted - 2008.05.19 01:08:00 - [34] Here's an option to "buff" scanners if you get rid of local: Have a display option to filter out ships located at a POS, or filter out unpiloted ships.
Gealbhan Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.19 01:17:00 - [35] I think, as an experiment, CCP should remove local for one month and then throw out a player poll where people can vote to A) Leave it gone or B) bring it back. Have the link to the vote at the log in screen because not everyone visits the forum. This way everyone can have a say on the topic and put it to bed once and for all. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Syniztur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.19 01:22:00 - [36] This thread is so full of ╔═╦══╦╦╗ ║╔╣╔╗║║║ ║╚╣╚╝║║║ ║╔╣╔╗║║╚╗ ╚╝╚╝╚╩╩═╝ It's almost as pointless as that reasonless post about removing cloaking. I propose a vote: 1) All those in favor of CCP forums instantly locking stupid threads like this 2) All those that appose? (you should know that if you appose you will be shot!) -------------------------------------------------- \| Do unto others, before they can do unto you! \| --------------------------------------------------
Kuzya Morozov Gallente The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.19 02:19:00 - [37] Originally by: Wren Alterana yes but the vast majority of the forums are pushing for a removal of local, so it would be a good change. Generalized blanket statement is generalized.
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 02:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Wren Alterana yes but the vast majority of the forums are pushing for a removal of local, so it would be a good change. Not quite. There is a very vocal minority who are pushing for it, but that is hardly a vast majority.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.19 03:27:00 - [39] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 19/05/2008 03:27:47 Originally by: RigelKentaurus Originally by: Wren Alterana majority of the forums != Majority of the playerbase. Actually, that's not correct. That argument was true about 10 years ago for MMOs, but that's just not the case any longer. Originally by: Eventy One Originally by: Wren Alterana yes but the vast majority of the forums are pushing for a removal of local, so it would be a good change. Not quite. There is a very vocal minority who are pushing for it, but that is hardly a vast majority. Really, where are they?
cal nereus Koshaku Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.19 03:41:00 - [40] Playing the game probably. --- Skills
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.19 04:00:00 - [41] Originally by: cal nereus I remember a Dev saying he was considering replacing local chat with constellation chat. This is the best idea really. would work well with factional warfare.
Komen Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 04:25:00 - [42] Originally by: Syniztur This thread is so full of ╔═╦══╦╦╗ ║╔╣╔╗║║║ ║╚╣╚╝║║║ ║╔╣╔╗║║╚╗ ╚╝╚╝╚╩╩═╝ It's almost as pointless as that reasonless post about removing cloaking. I propose a vote: 1) All those in favor of CCP forums instantly locking stupid threads like this 2) All those that appose? (you should know that if you appose you will be shot!) Oppose. Go ahead, shoot me, I'm a nigh-immortal pod pilot, I've got plenty of clones to spare. Unless you were making that a real life threat, of course. Reason - I find these threads, like most other threads, to be quite entertaining. Carry on with your...debate. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Conrad Rock Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.19 04:51:00 - [43] Don't you think by now CCP has explored all the pros and cons of removing local? They even said they are working on alternatives before removing it. No, they will not just remove local soon. No local would be so much fun for 0.0 alliances as they know the terrain, have jump bridges, have backup, have blob, have backups ships, have large bubbles anchored everywhere, etc... hehe No local would stop all solo/small number none-cloaking gangs. It would only benefit blackops style roamers who "live" in a system for a longer time than just searching for targets system by system. Remember that once this change happens, it will actually be worth it for 0.0 alliances to camp, so they will make impossible to mwd back to the gate camps do it. You will need to create so many bookmarks everywhere and just the presence of a bubble on scanner from your near next stargate bookmark would scare you away from warping to that gate because you don't know if it's actually on the gate with cloaked Rapiers and Curses. Solo roamers don't know how good they have it now.
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.19 05:09:00 - [44] Replace it with a region general and region trade channel instead. The local chat in high-sec is mostly for trading anyway and in big system that trade talk is drowning out every attempts to be social. In low-sec it is primary an Intel-tool. The 0.0 people defends the local chat becuase without it you can¦t taunt the opponents, but you can still do that with a region chat. It is just ridiculous that one will instantly know exactly who is entering a system and leaves just by looking at local-chat. Buff the scanners if needed so one can check out what types of ships are nearby. But as it is now, a quick glance to know for examplr that the new arrival is 3 months old easy prey, just has to go. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwaMHJzruDU&feature=related
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.19 05:15:00 - [45] with regional chat people might actually chat in local again, being in a black ops battleship would be fun, and all that jazz. I mean really I wouldn't mind posted "hey ammar scum bags" in chat if it meant not telling one here! here! I'm here! check local!
Zurrar Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.19 06:01:00 - [46] aw, the poor little nubs dont want local removed cause they cant use scanner/intel channels :( Originally by: Darla Dawson Quit, and go play wow I slaughter the english language better than a isk farmer. I love you.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.19 06:03:00 - [47] Originally by: Conrad Rock Don't you think by now CCP has explored all the pros and cons of removing local? They even said they are working on alternatives before removing it. No, they will not just remove local soon. No local would be so much fun for 0.0 alliances as they know the terrain, have jump bridges, have backup, have blob, have backups ships, have large bubbles anchored everywhere, etc... hehe No local would stop all solo/small number none-cloaking gangs. It would only benefit blackops style roamers who "live" in a system for a longer time than just searching for targets system by system. Remember that once this change happens, it will actually be worth it for 0.0 alliances to camp, so they will make impossible to mwd back to the gate camps do it. You will need to create so many bookmarks everywhere and just the presence of a bubble on scanner from your near next stargate bookmark would scare you away from warping to that gate because you don't know if it's actually on the gate with cloaked Rapiers and Curses. Solo roamers don't know how good they have it now. DOOM! PANIC! ARMAGEDDON! Careful there Chicken Little, don't let the sky don't hit you in the head.
Zurrar Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.19 06:04:00 - [48] Originally by: ToxicFire Edited by: ToxicFire on 19/05/2008 00:08:58 sighs Local will go and come back in some other form I think that's pretty much guaranteed, I also believe its been said local was never intended and shouldn't be an Intel tool. 1) To all those people going wah If you remove local I'll leave and so will half the player base, this is simply wrong half the player base probably doesn't give a toss about local as most are empire hugging carebears. 2) The comment it will increase gate camps and blobs... neh local won't change that much, why because gate camps are based around the premise of camping at a high traffic point, these in eve are clearly marked bottlenecks usually between vital area's removing local won't add any more of these, in fact it might lower some as they won't know if a force is on its way to deal with them. 3) People do not use local to locate gate camps currently they just look at the activity on the map 4) The Hunter-Prey getting a leg up argument pointless its balanced those prey will have to be uber paranoid where hunters will actually have to put effort into locating the prey now rather than just going something here lets warp to every belt until we hit it rather than use the ingame mechanics. 5) Local will most likely be reduced to displaying friendlies only while improvements to the scanner will be added to allow detection of hunter/prey without the other knowing their there straight away. 6) It will actually allow hit and fade tactics at last which is a tactic that is sorely missing in eve. dude, if you were a chick i'd so have you have my baby! everything is sooooo true. you can stop laughing long enough to type a real response. when i travel i dont even use local, i use the intel channels and when i can a scout. Originally by: Darla Dawson Quit, and go play wow I slaughter the english language better than a isk farmer. I love you.
dreamsequencer Amarr Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2008.05.19 08:09:00 - [49] Local should stay. In empire it's nice to check local and see if someone is there so you can start some meaningless conversation. However, local chat in 0.0 can change for the better, but only for Covert Ops Cloaks. If you cloak, you disappear from local. To compensate, there should be a probe that can confirm the presence of covert ships in the system without giving away their exact location. Other cloaked ships should burn some kind of fuel in their cargohold for the period that their cloak is active. Wheather they should disappear from local, I don't know... --- Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori ---
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.05.19 08:14:00 - [50] comon guys we all know stealth ships and op ships + probs cant do there jobs right with local.. we got no chose but too dump it. its not needed anymore. it just an't.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.19 08:29:00 - [51] But if they remove local I won't be able to talk in local () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Maidel Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 09:32:00 - [52] Edited by: Maidel on 19/05/2008 09:33:24 What about people who fight in empire? Its all well and good fighting in low sec/ 0.0 - scan, find a target and kill - everything out their is either a friend or a target. What about people who have wars in empire? Very few ships are friend and very few ships are foe- how in G*Ds name are they supposed to find each other? Only way to have a fight in empire would be to evemail the other corp, arrange a system and a time (or be very lucky and accidentally bump into one..) EDIT - I would just like to make it clear that CVA do NOT think that anyone who is a not a friend is a target - I was just making the point for everyone else (we are the only nrds still around so its only not applicable to us)
small chimp	Posted - 2008.05.19 10:58:00 - [53] Yes remove the local so everyone should adept to your playstyle! Also I like to chat on local (empire) and you want to remove that from me?
Rveir	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:21:00 - [54] Im all for removing the player list from local alltogether, its not like one should get information if someone is hunting him, or if you are hunting someone. Maybe there is a compromise solution. Maybe remove the playerlist from the local -channel, and possibly add an option for the channel, which informs one when another player joins/leaves the channel (= enters/leaves the system). And this would be optional, tick a box type of option, which player can disable if he is in a system where there is a lot of players leaving and arriving. This way those who are already in a system, would have slight warning beforehand of what to expect, and those who arrive would have to comb the system for prey, if there is any to be found. Also, local would stay as channel for those who wish to chat at local. Is above totaly bad idea? Would it hurt agressors too much?
Ipos	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:37:00 - [55] Removing local wouldn't be a good thing imo. Nosec space would require gatecamps at every border and bottleneck system for anyone to do their business somewhat safely. Not saying it's a bad thing but alot of things would change, solo PvP in 0.0 would be very hard to pull off. Lowsec wouldn't be fun, I think solo PvP would become even more rare if they changed local. Instead I guess everyone would be sitting in gangs spamming their scanners, looking for easy prey. Sooner rather than later that prey would have adjusted to the changes aswell, people learn quickly when it hurts not to. Empire would just be ********, how are you s'posed to find your enemies without having spies amongst your list of wardec'ed corps? Just seems very bothersome to me.
Sunbird Huy Yarrtards With Epeen	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:44:00 - [56] local discussion and check other "remove local" the idea of local being broadcasted within range of stations would be a decent compromise for all.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:47:00 - [57] I'm split on local honestly. It would certainly boost the use of probes and scanners and would get people interested in going to low sec and 0.0 as pirates wouldn't even know you are there unless they were to catch you on scanners. Which is pretty damn difficult. The real issue would be that your scanners being limited to 14au range and then say ferret probe which is 40au. They could literally be dropping right down on top of you before you ever know it. The biggest thing I think is the jump between not caring about who is in the system of high sec and to low sec which would be pretty damn big jump. You may not have any good experiences because of that learning curve. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:55:00 - [58] Drop local indicator from chat,or have a 1 to 5 minute delay, 1 min for empire, 5 for 0.0?, would be a good compromise. 1 tactical issue that i would like to re-address since i didnt think of this at first, is that recon gangs would be the primary choice in 0.0 and that would be a little unfortante in the sense that the majority of ships would be rapiers, arazus, falcons, pilgrims in that order... so I don't know if this would have a positive influence as we now have a good spread in ship types and capabilities. I have been tryin to propose some sort of low HP 500-1000 hp jump counter which could be interfaced with the scanner, and a constant scan option as a viable alternitive to the solowtfpwn status of local chat. because nothing has been done with the local chat, and the hush hush nature and lack of UI fixes to date, i am starting to wonder if CCP has implemented a whole host of changes to the UI which they dont want to talk about and local/scanner etc have been altered. If this is the case, they better test the bejesus out of it because if they introduce another broken mod it will just look silly at this point. Cause i got self deteting tabs, ******** windows with a mind of their own, and a hole host of other annoying bugs with the UI right now...
Prideful Caldari Pheonix Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:56:00 - [59] I think removing local would be a bad idea, but maybe introduce a skill/module that would allow a player to be hidden from local chat for a specified amount of time? It could be set with a timer making sure that the person using it has to wait, say, 30 seconds before they can activate it, so anyone who's activley watching local would have a clue that someone has entered the system. Then the person could activate module and initiate their hunt. There are problems with this idea, but its better then removing local alltogether IMO. ------------------------ "Lead me, Follow me, Or get out of my way." -George Patton
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:07:00 - [60] Remove local? Go for it. Nothing will move for at least 6 months, CPP can go back to selling ships through the AI, the player side economy will crash. Lets call it a combat upgrade...
Gods Coldblood THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:08:00 - [61] Edited by: Gods Coldblood on 19/05/2008 12:12:39 Your both idiots and are completely off. No local would remove chat, and help with lag a bit - but that's really the only useful thing about it really. The bad stuff is that you can't see who all is in the same system, so that makes it less a convince for BOTH the prey and the hunter. The hunter's going to have a harder time even realizing who's in local, and make a lot more effort with the scanner. While the prey is more at risk of being jumped without even seeing it coming. You have no way of telling if any allied groups are nearby, so it creates a pretty bad communications problem. You also have no idea who you are scanning down is friend or foe, talk about a waste of time looking for a red to kill. This would also make the abilitiy for 0.0 alliances to even defend their own territory impossible, it's already hard enough for a alliance to even remotly secure most of their territory. Intel networks would be rendered useless. No capital pilot can navigate through 0.0 or low sec and have a stable frame of mind. This would kill off a lot of capitals - most people would not be willing to risk that much ISK because local was removed and it was too dangerous. The demand would crash and no producers would want to get into the capital market ever again. This probably would make a lot of people not want to even PvP in general anymore - which would completely devastate the markets. There would really be no safe place, even in dock - only cloaking. Everytime you undock, you have no idea if your being camped or not. This list could go on for another 5 threads if I wanted to spend that kinda time. If the vast majority of the forums thinks that local can be removed without any consequences, well - must be the vocal majority, because we are having a mass collection of idiots. The only way it could work is if local was removed and something else was put in it's place - like a better system scanner - however it would be incredibly annoying having to spam your scanner button 24-7, it's more work than play if thats the case. Pay attention to this quote people!!! I'm not joking either, i could name millions reasons why this would ruin thoses fun fights we all come to love, wether its small or large scale, we might as well just stay docked, wait for the enemy to turn up and station camp us in ____________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Anxiety
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:14:00 - [62] Originally by: Prideful I think removing local would be a bad idea, but maybe introduce a skill/module that would allow a player to be hidden from local chat for a specified amount of time? It could be set with a timer making sure that the person using it has to wait, say, 30 seconds before they can activate it, so anyone who's activley watching local would have a clue that someone has entered the system. Then the person could activate module and initiate their hunt. There are problems with this idea, but its better then removing local alltogether IMO. How about shiptype dictates the delay on updating local? Such that perhaps non-combat gets a 1minute delay and combat ships are updated automatically. Then for the stealthy ships. There is some sort of rig or module or something which makes you delayed on local. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
Prideful Caldari Pheonix Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:15:00 - [63] Ya, it would make covert ops ship more, well... covert. ------------------------ "Lead me, Follow me, Or get out of my way." -George Patton
Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Krystal Demishy Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 18/05/2008 20:32:48 No local = More people scared of 0.0 and low sec = Bigger gangs = More gate camps = More blobs = Bad We want more little gangs, people splitted in various places, not people scared of what they could find on the next gate and stuck camping/blobbing/lagging systems and battles. Use the map fool...thats what it's there for
Swp Caldari Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:32:00 - [65] Edited by: Swp on 19/05/2008 12:32:46 no local =beter for carebears = no fun !!! ___ CVA THE AMARR EMPIRE (movie)
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:37:00 - [66] Removing local has nothing to do with making stealth ships stealth or lag from local. It's an easy fix to Ambulation social concept. They don't want to auto default all players to the planetary chat. Players will in time network to secure systems and you get more and more Jita factor where players cluster for security, local becomes fleet and or alliance channel and all activity revolves around those. Only systems with Ice belts will have POS's Only systems with bases will have mining That 300 entry standings thing will get filled up half as fast as it does now. Do what they want. Some will adapt, some will just leave. I just think it's a short term answer to a long term problem.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2008.05.19 12:37:00 - [67] Originally by: Amastat Your both idiots and are completely off. No local would remove chat, and help with lag a bit - but that's really the only useful thing about it really. The bad stuff is that you can't see who all is in the same system, so that makes it less a convince for BOTH the prey and the hunter. The hunter's going to have a harder time even realizing who's in local, and make a lot more effort with the scanner. While the prey is more at risk of being jumped without even seeing it coming. You have no way of telling if any allied groups are nearby, so it creates a pretty bad communications problem. You also have no idea who you are scanning down is friend or foe, talk about a waste of time looking for a red to kill. This would also make the abilitiy for 0.0 alliances to even defend their own territory impossible, it's already hard enough for a alliance to even remotly secure most of their territory. Intel networks would be rendered useless. No capital pilot can navigate through 0.0 or low sec and have a stable frame of mind. This would kill off a lot of capitals - most people would not be willing to risk that much ISK because local was removed and it was too dangerous. The demand would crash and no producers would want to get into the capital market ever again. This probably would make a lot of people not want to even PvP in general anymore - which would completely devastate the markets. There would really be no safe place, even in dock - only cloaking. Everytime you undock, you have no idea if your being camped or not. This list could go on for another 5 threads if I wanted to spend that kinda time. If the vast majority of the forums thinks that local can be removed without any consequences, well - must be the vocal majority, because we are having a mass collection of idiots. The only way it could work is if local was removed and something else was put in it's place - like a better system scanner - however it would be incredibly annoying having to spam your scanner button 24-7, it's more work than play if thats the case. You just convinced me: local must be removed.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.05.19 13:24:00 - [68] While I like the idea of removing local chat as a information tool (people appearing whenever they enter system), it'd leave us with no functioning information tools at all. Currently you've got the on-board scanner which, in addition to local (and knowledge of the system as well, so you can determine possed/AFK ships) provides you information about what's in system and your immediate surroundings. Even then, correct intel requires a bit of knowledge and guesswork since you have no precise way of determining who is flying what. Particularly when people are flying covert ops cloaking device ships. Just removing local would leave everyone in the dark, which is not such a awesome idea. A pirate killing for profit relies on target selection and avoiding blobs. Wars rely on being able to fairly quickly determine wether there are any targets in system - without local, you would literally never find your targets in high-sec without extensive station camping. It makes it impossible to spot the so popular bait/gank traps and such, and target selection is much harder to do. The issue is that the directional scanner sucks. It tells you ship type and name (and can be used to figure out direction/distance) - but with a ton of ships around and a lot of possed/etc ships plus ships with cloaks, it's extremely hard to get a clear image of what's going on in system. Plus, the most annoying thing ever, you have to spam the scan button. To prevent people from being totally blind to their surroundings, a scanner 'fix' would be necessary, preety much like this: (1) Implementing a "pilot" tab in the scanner, so you know who's in what ship and who is red / who isn't. Without this, wars are next to impossible, particularly in high-sec. (2) Auto-updating the scanner, so people don't have to spam the scan button - if you open the scanner, it 'pings' every 1-2 (or up to 5, doesn't have to be instantenous) seconds and refreshes the results. Obviously, cloaked ships wouldn't appear on scanner directly, but some way of detecting that there are cloaked ships nearby would be nice, otherwise we're going to see a massive poliferation of recon blobs (which are already frequent for bait/gank traps, and all the cool people have a falcon alt). Perhaps seeing 'unidentified signature' on scanner without pilot/etc information for covops cloaks at a 5AU range so you have some warning of cloaked ships without precise information, and said ships can scout from a bit farther away undetected, and at full range for non-covops cloak ships (except stealth bombers). Before you say anything about covops cloaks - this would still be a huge boost for cloaking ships as the player names would not be visible on scanner anymore. As someone with about 20-ish falcon alts/pilots set to red and therefore immediately aware of their presence in local, it will only make it harder for me to spot them, not easier. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.19 13:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton my main problem is that local is too powerful, but the onboard scanner isnt quite powerful enough. This, basically. I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.19 13:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton my main problem is that local is too powerful, but the onboard scanner isnt quite powerful enough. This, basically. Hit the nail on the head right there. A revamp of the scanner is most defiantly needed. First, because most people here seems to have the same misguided conceptions on how the issue will be approached, Local Chat will never be disabled. The problem is that there is simply too much information given to the individual players. The mere fact that there are countless threads of people crying about people who cloak and afk in systems because it "Throws off their game" is proof enough of that. Ironicly, the fact that there is an overabundance of unnessesary info in local chat is because of programs similar to bacon back in the day. They had an uncanny advantage over everyone else in the game because they were able to see the standinds and security ratings of people who entered the system. Only the people with the program had access to the data and the devs were forced to give this to everone else. Now we have Bacon, which takes it a step even further. The issue with local chat giving too much information has been a longstanding one, but mulled down by the fact that players have come to think of it as common place. It's time to get your heads out of your asses and move on.
Alhambra Rainwalker Caldari Rosa Alba Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 13:55:00 - [71] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton my main problem is that local is too powerful, but the onboard scanner isnt quite powerful enough. This is true. About people flying more recons if local was removed, many gankers/roamers are fitting cloaks in everything they fly these days so it wouldn¦t change much in that sense. But you have to make some other changes to the game if you want to go this way. I¦m not a big fan of local at all myself, it¦s way too convenient and easy way to avoid danger if you ask me. Most often real military commanders don¦t exactly know what they are up against, they gather best intel they can and go for it.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Alhambra Rainwalker Edited by: Alhambra Rainwalker on 19/05/2008 13:58:37 Edited by: Alhambra Rainwalker on 19/05/2008 13:58:21 Edited by: Alhambra Rainwalker on 19/05/2008 13:57:15 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton my main problem is that local is too powerful, but the onboard scanner isnt quite powerful enough. This is true. About people flying more recons if local was removed, many gankers/roamers are fitting cloaks in everything they fly these days so it wouldn¦t change much in that sense. They find more value in improved risk-avoidance than offense or other utility mod in that spare high and it¦s probably true. Striking enemy when it¦s weak or unable to defend itself effectively is usually best way to go. But you have to make some other changes to the game if you want to go this way. Dynamic belts and other content, envinroments (in some places cloaks won¦t work etc) and so forth. I¦m not a big fan of local at all myself, it¦s way too convenient and easy way to avoid danger if you ask me. Most often real military commanders don¦t exactly know what they are up against, they gather best intel they can and go for it. How much is risk avoidance and how much is trying to eek out more of an advantage? A curse fit with a cloak is better than a pilgrim... My poor pilgrim
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:46:00 - [73] Imagen how many god damn gate + bubbles + smart bombing BS you'd end up with. Just Imagen it, frigate PVP would die in about a week. ---
GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:48:00 - [74] Originally by: Nicholas Barker Imagen how many god damn gate + bubbles + smart bombing BS you'd end up with. Just Imagen it, frigate PVP would die in about a week. What exactly does that have to do with local chat? sorry. you've failed.
Sunbird Huy Yarrtards With Epeen	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Gods Coldblood Edited by: Gods Coldblood on 19/05/2008 12:12:39 You have no way of telling if any allied groups are nearby, so it creates a pretty bad communications problem. You also have no idea who you are scanning down is friend or foe, talk about a waste of time looking for a red to kill. Intel networks would be rendered useless. Ummm...what kind of allies do u have? do u speak to them only in local? everheard of creating channels of your own? or intel channels where people report sightings, neutrals and hostiles? 0.0 alliances mostly secure their territory by camping the entry gate(s) to their space. Intel networks would be rendered useless?-GEEZ!!! It's quite the opposite, everyone would be keeping their eyes on their surroundings and the intel channels(yes, those exist...). And it would just simply crystallize the real pvp-ers, and cancel the cowardly nanof*ggs that engage only when they are 100% sure of victory. Space is huge, unknown, dark...u need that kind of feeling if u're playing a SPACESHIP game too... Try the game called X3 : Reunion, it gives u perspective of space fighting, tho it is not MMORPG...That's also a point for CCP, they could check that game and maybe look for interesting ideas from that one, or similar space games...
Conrad Rock Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:47:00 - [76] Originally by: Christari Zuborov DOOM! PANIC! ARMAGEDDON! Careful there Chicken Little, don't let the sky don't hit you in the head. Nice argument, moron.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:31:00 - [77] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 19/05/2008 18:35:16 Originally by: Conrad Rock Originally by: Christari Zuborov DOOM! PANIC! ARMAGEDDON! Careful there Chicken Little, don't let the sky don't hit you in the head. Nice argument, moron. Oh yes, another witty response! You see, he's the deal. Anyone that posts that it's the "end of", or "beginning of", or how it will be, actually doesn't have a clue and should be called out when they do this. The truth is, you or no one else posting in this forum, have no idea what the new interface would be like and how that interface would effect the mechanics. What we do know is how the current interface has an effect on mechanics, and most of us realize it's fundamentally flawed, that it needs to be updated, that in some way it needs to be changed, in its current state it's unacceptable. Now I put forth some sort of suggestion like so: I'd like for a redesign to be done on the scanner interface to introduce mechanics that require PLAYER based skill, not character based skill, to determine where another player is in relation to yourself. It should be different that what it is now. It should have some sort of RP feel to it and be based on sound science principles. I'd like for the scanner to not automatically inform pirates that I'm local and probably ratting. That's what I'd like, but the end product may not be within 5% of the specifications I ask for. It's also far more productive than simply stating, "Let's keep things the way they are", or "this is what I want to happen when I do this". Things change, and they will always continue to change, accept that. Once you've realized that it will change, then your start to be productive by suggesting alternatives that suit your desires. *Quit being Chicken Little.* Ok Conrad, So let's hear it. What are your arguments? I've saving some space right here for it. Tell me. Quote:
Bourgeoisvio	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:22:00 - [78] Originally by: Conrad Rock No local would stop all solo/small number none-cloaking gangs. This is just blatantly untrue. Local allows large blob alliances to instantly tell if a couple neutral/hostile roamers enter system in addition to being able to track them as they move systems.
NeoNeTiC Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:39:00 - [79] Didn't read replies below OP because OP was rediculous. Carebears don't get scared from seeing someone in low-sec or 0.0 local. They get scared when they see the red flashing ships on overview and the message "You can not warp because you're warpscrambled.". Or the bubble. Or someone approach them. Or warp in. They're a bit like children. They do what they want unless they get scared. That's when they sleep with lights on for the rest of their life until they grow up and get laid. Sadly most of EVE players never seem to get laid. (This was an example to illustrate my view, don't tell me about your sex-life now) Experienced PvPers don't mind numbers in local. They either find a way out alive or simply log in a safespot and wait until the 200 man blob left system. If you remove local things will stay the same. People enter lowsec, see flashing pirates at a gate, wet their pants and cry while trying to get out or actually fight them. Same goes for 0.0, except that NPCers lose a bit of safety since they have to hit the "scan" button all the time and hope there's no cloaking ship around. The real downside would be belt-piracy since lowsec is so full with crap nowdays that you have to spend ages in each system scanning around for a target - just to find it at a POS. ._. Enjoy sleeping with your lights on, NeoNeTiC [MORTS]-Slayer of the Innocent
u die Minmatar Sugarcane Technologies	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:18:00 - [80] Surviving in 0.0/lowsec after local removal would require teamplay. Since most of the people 'could not get' a scout, costumers would cry a river. river crying = obviously bad Thats it. But to ease your worries, there is local there on Sisi, i just checked a couple hours ago. sarkasm here ________________________________________________
Ron Bacardi Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:36:00 - [81] Edited by: Ron Bacardi on 20/05/2008 17:41:23 Edited by: Ron Bacardi on 20/05/2008 17:38:52 Local chat should not be an intel tool. Right now, that is all it is. The reason it hasnt been removed already is because the scanner is pretty sub-par. Don't be too surprised if CCP makes sweeping changes to scanning and implements something more active(think radar) and at the same time removes local. In the meantime, ditch local for constellation chat, let's make gethering intel at least a little harder. God forbid gathering intel was a little harder than an FC saying "count the reds in local guys". EDIT: Regarding being station camped and having no idea, you'd think that stations would have sophisticated sensors and while in station you could access sensor data to see everyone in the space around it. Make it a new station service.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.05.21 12:06:00 - [82] Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 21/05/2008 12:06:15 Originally by: GB Man Originally by: Nicholas Barker Imagen how many god damn gate + bubbles + smart bombing BS you'd end up with. Just Imagen it, frigate PVP would die in about a week. What exactly does that have to do with local chat? sorry. you've failed. because once people can't see somebody in local, they don't know to scan the gates or not, you've either got to scan every single gate while you travel, or just get killed after a few jumps because of this, or fly a bigger ship that can take the smart bomb hits before you can mwd out of range. sorry you've failed you'll need noob scouts for your scout frigates then. ---
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:33:00 - [83] Originally by: Nicholas Barker Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 21/05/2008 12:06:15 Originally by: GB Man Originally by: Nicholas Barker Imagen how many god damn gate + bubbles + smart bombing BS you'd end up with. Just Imagen it, frigate PVP would die in about a week. What exactly does that have to do with local chat? sorry. you've failed. because once people can't see somebody in local, they don't know to scan the gates or not, you've either got to scan every single gate while you travel, or just get killed after a few jumps because of this, or fly a bigger ship that can take the smart bomb hits before you can mwd out of range. sorry you've failed you'll need noob scouts for your scout frigates then. Maybe you shouldn't be willy-nilly'in all over tarnation?! Ya ever think of that?
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:33:00 - [84] Local is going in it's current form whether you like it or not. Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
Grarr Dexx Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:45:00 - [85] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Local is going in it's current form whether you like it or not. Hoho, let's leave the big words to the actual developers, boy-o!

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