| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Hack WIlson
   |
Posted - 2008.05.19 03:47:00 -
[1]
i keep getting told to passive tank my drake but how? what is the difference between active and passive and how do i tell what modules are passive when i buy them?
how do i use passive modules if they are not actively turned on etc
lastly, what skills improve passive tanks?
thanks alot 
|
Luyshin
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 03:52:00 -
[2]
"Passive" just means you don't have a shield booster. The idea is that you increase your shield ammount so much that the recharge rate effectively 'boosts' over time as much as a shield booster might 'boost' in a single pulse.
Look around in this forum subsection for drake fits. It also helps to have the applicable skills (shield mngt, etc.) as high as possible. |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 03:59:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 19/05/2008 03:59:39
A passive tank on a Drake would have shield extenders and shield hardeners (yes, they use cap, but that doesn't make it an active tank) in the mid slots, and shield power relays and power diagnostic systems (the PDS are not mandatory though, you could go without) in the low slots.
|
Pax Empyrean
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 04:02:00 -
[4]
Passive tanking means not using shield boosters or anything that requires energy. Basically you want to increase your shield hp, regen, and resistances and let it recharge naturally while you fight. Doing this properly will take up a lot of slots, but you won't have to worry about your capacitor running out while you fight. Passive modules are always on; you don't have to toggle them on and off.
Here's the basics of what you'll be using:
Shield Extenders (more shield HP, faster shield regen, mid slots)
Shield Amplifiers (boost shield resistance to specific damage types, mid slots)
Shield Power Relays (kill your cap recharge, greatly increase shield regen, low slots)
Core Defense Field Purgers (this is a rig and costs about 12 million each. Boosts your regen. You don't need it for level 3 missions)
My Drake uses two Tech II large shield extenders and four Tech 2 shield amplifiers. I just got done doing a Blood Raiders mission and they do EM/Thermal damage, so I had two amplifiers for each of those damage types. I had two Shield Power Relays in low slots, and two Ballistic Control Units in the other slots.
Some shield equipment is not used for passive shield tanking. Shield boosters are for active tanks only. Shield hardeners are like shield amplifiers except they take energy; also only for active tanks. The hardeners are orange and the amplifiers are brown, so you shouldn't confuse them. Shield Rechargers seem like they would be good for a passive tank since they boost recharge and don't take energy, but they take up mid slots that are always better used for something else.
Important skills for passive tanking are anything that boosts your shield hp or regen, so Shield Management and Shield Operation are very important. To get more out of your Shield Amplifiers, you'll want to take a few ranks in EM Compensation, Thermal Compensation, etc. That will boost the resistance bonus of those module types.
Generally, passive tanking is the way to go on a Drake. It makes a great passive tank. For battleships, you'll want to take advantage of their massive capacitor output and active tank them.
|
Arvald
Caldari
The School 0f Fine Arts
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 04:05:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Pax Empyrean
Passive tanking means not using shield boosters or anything that requires energy. Basically you want to increase your shield hp, regen, and resistances and let it recharge naturally while you fight. Doing this properly will take up a lot of slots, but you won't have to worry about your capacitor running out while you fight. Passive modules are always on; you don't have to toggle them on and off.
Here's the basics of what you'll be using:
Shield Extenders (more shield HP, faster shield regen, mid slots)
Shield Amplifiers (boost shield resistance to specific damage types, mid slots)
Shield Power Relays (kill your cap recharge, greatly increase shield regen, low slots)
Core Defense Field Purgers (this is a rig and costs about 12 million each. Boosts your regen. You don't need it for level 3 missions)
My Drake uses two Tech II large shield extenders and four Tech 2 shield amplifiers. I just got done doing a Blood Raiders mission and they do EM/Thermal damage, so I had two amplifiers for each of those damage types. I had two Shield Power Relays in low slots, and two Ballistic Control Units in the other slots.
Some shield equipment is not used for passive shield tanking. Shield boosters are for active tanks only. Shield hardeners are like shield amplifiers except they take energy; also only for active tanks. The hardeners are orange and the amplifiers are brown, so you shouldn't confuse them. Shield Rechargers seem like they would be good for a passive tank since they boost recharge and don't take energy, but they take up mid slots that are always better used for something else.
Important skills for passive tanking are anything that boosts your shield hp or regen, so Shield Management and Shield Operation are very important. To get more out of your Shield Amplifiers, you'll want to take a few ranks in EM Compensation, Thermal Compensation, etc. That will boost the resistance bonus of those module types.
Generally, passive tanking is the way to go on a Drake. It makes a great passive tank. For battleships, you'll want to take advantage of their massive capacitor output and active tank them.
shield hardners for missions are a hell of alot better than amps, you can easny run 3 specific ones with half decent cap skills due to the power relays, wou will get higher resists AND you will have a slot for a shield recharger/amp/extender
Originally by: Liang Nuren
There are no dangerous ships, there are dangerous people. IIRC, you are one of them.
|
Pax Empyrean
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 04:14:00 -
[6]
My cap recharge is killed by the shield power relays. I stick with the passive ones. Besides, the shield compensation skills give a nice bonus on those. I'll stick with the ~45% resist I get from each amplifier and sit back knowing that I don't need cap at all, meaning I can laugh at anything that tries to Nos me.
|
Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 04:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Pax Empyrean
My cap recharge is killed by the shield power relays. I stick with the passive ones. Besides, the shield compensation skills give a nice bonus on those. I'll stick with the ~45% resist I get from each amplifier and sit back knowing that I don't need cap at all, meaning I can laugh at anything that tries to Nos me.
There should easily be enough cap to run at least 2 hardeners permanently, unless you're using 4 shield power relays (which is way too much).
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 04:24:00 -
[8]
With L4+ capacitor skills and only 2 SPRs fited (the other two lowslots ballistic controls) you should be able to perma-run even four active T2 hardeners.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Pax Empyrean
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 04:28:00 -
[9]
You're still vulnerable to Nos that way, and even with the resistance amplifiers you've got more than enough tank to handle level 3 missions, so there's no point in going with the hardeners.
Not like it really matters, though. Either way you have more than enough tank to handle level 3 missions.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 05:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Akita T on 19/05/2008 05:05:36
Originally by: Pax Empyrean
You're still vulnerable to Nos that way, and even with the resistance amplifiers you've got more than enough tank to handle level 3 missions, so there's no point in going with the hardeners.
Not like it really matters, though. Either way you have more than enough tank to handle level 3 missions.
Well, if you slap on 3 purgers, 2 SPRs, 2 LSEs, 2 shield rechargers and 2 invul fields, and that should already be more than enough for just about any L3 indeed, even with mediocre shield skills and no shield implants.
You'd have to make some pretty bad judgement calls to get killed in a L3 mission that way.
However, I wasn't really talking about L3s.
Some people (*cough* me, for instance) actually run L4s in a Drake... and there you want some decent tank, and you're forced to have a decent DPS too (so 4-SPR setups are out of the question, at least a BCS, preferably two are mandatory), therefore every little bit of extra tank from the slots you can use is welcome.
Besides... NOS ?
There's only a handfull of NPCs that even use NOS at all.
With a Drake you can easily stay out of NOS range (at least long enough to kill off any NPCs that use it)... so NOS is a non-issue.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 06:33:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/05/2008 06:33:00
öPassive tanking means not using shield boosters or anything that requires energy.ö
No it does not that would just be a complete waste of ship resourceÆs. Passive tanks are ment to use the spare cap. There is nothing wrong with using active hardeners, itÆs still a passive tank.
____
ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 06:55:00 -
[12]
I prefer to call setups that use no capacitor "capless setups" to more easily differentiate them from "passive" setups, verbally.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Cpl Punnishment
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 08:50:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Cpl Punnishment on 19/05/2008 08:52:48
Edited by: Cpl Punnishment on 19/05/2008 08:51:34
I like running LVL 4 missions in the Drake. It is a solid ship. When it comes down to it, People will argue the finer points of passive builds vs. using hardners or amps... I have used a few different combos and have found most of them to work. I have gone full passive with no problem, however I am running mostly passive, but switching two passive Shield Rechargers with two Invulnerability Fields with positive results.
In short, The Drake is a hard ship to mess up. I would steer away from Active Shield Boosters though. Otherwise focus on Full Passive set up in the beginning. Train your skills up to make this as effective as possible. You can toy with the set up to your own taste and other people's advice down the road. But a good Passive Drake Build is not hard to find, and a great place to start. This ship can take you a lot of places. Many pilots jump into a BS as soon as possible. And while BS put out more DPS than the mighty Drake, they, on average, don't manage Damage as well as a Drake can. So you can train as you fight your LVL 3 missions, it is also possible to do the LVL 4 missions solo in the same Drake.
One other piece of advice... In the beginning, many Drake pilots concentrate on their Tank.. They will usually have something like 4 Shield Power Relays taking up all the lows. If thats your thing then thats your thing. But building a good ship is about bringing DPS delivered to DPS managed. People way over tank Drakes... Make sure you have at least one, and as your skills increase, two BCUs in the Lows. This will help out quite a bit to bring your targets down a lot faster.
Anyway, you are on the right track.. Its a great ship. Have fun.
|
Arwen Stargazer
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 08:59:00 -
[14]
Passive drake I use, have the first drake I bought....never been in trouble in any lvl3, the level 4's i tried, no probs with tanking just cant kill things fast enough to make it worth it...
mid 3xLSE II, 2xInvun II, 1x tech 2 passive EM hardener
low 2xSPR, 1xcap control, 1xbcu II
rigs 3 x shield recharge rig
oh highs...7xheavy launcher (whatever you can afford), 1xtractor beam (ship is slow, makes looting mission item faster).
Though this is a mainly tech 2 setup, didnt have any problems when using a tech 1 setup either.
|
Leeluvv
The Black Ops
Black Core Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 10:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/05/2008 06:33:00
öPassive tanking means not using shield boosters or anything that requires energy.ö
No it does not that would just be a complete waste of ship resourceÆs. Passive tanks are meant to use the spare cap. There is nothing wrong with using active hardeners, itÆs still a passive tank.
By your definition, a cap stable shield booster setup is passive tanking, whereas I would define a passive tank as one that is immune to NOS/neuts.
I think that a lot of people get confused by the term 'passive tank', as they are told that a Drake is best as a passive tank, yet this isn't really true. A Drake is best tanked as a hybrid mix of passive shield rechargers and active hardeners.
This same confusion arises when new Drake pilots try to max their recharge, forgetting that increasing their resists will also increase the ship's tank.
I am typing as I think and I am now going to suggest some definitions:
Passive recharge - capless shield recharge
Active recharge - cap used for shield recharge (i.e. Boosters)
Passive resists - capless resists (i.e. Amplifiers)
Active resists - cap used for resists (i.e. Hardeners)
Passive tank = passive recharge and resists
Active tank = active recharge and resists
Hybrid tank = a mix of actives and passives
Cap stable - natural cap recharge is greater than the cap used by modules.
Cap unstable - natural cap recharge is less than the cap used by modules.
Feel free to suggest something better...
Lee
==
Sig to follow |
Diomidis
Amarr
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 11:09:00 -
[16]
The key will always be using rat specific hardeners. With 3x hardeners, 2x for the main dmg type and 1x for the secondary, even 1x SPR in the lows is enough for tanking all lvl 3s. Of course the rest is for BCUs. That way you can even fir an Afterburner to fasten things a bit more. You don't NEED 3x LSEs for lvl 3s with decent support skills.
You can use more tank for lvl 4s, but then it gets less and less efficient, cause HML cannot provide sufficient dps. Upgrade to a Nighthawk for a very nice passive tank with T2 mods, or a Raven / CNR with faction (or better) fitting.
Join the Biggest Greek Corp!
www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 11:11:00 -
[17]
ôBy your definition, a cap stable shield booster setup is passive tanking, whereas I would define a passive tank as one that is immune to NOS/neuts.ö
What! By the definitions I came up with a shield booster is never a passive tank. The problem with your definition is 99% of passive tanks from the first few years of passive tanks are not counted as passive tanks.
Any definition which excludes the original passive tanks in my mind is a bad definition. Active hardeners are fine and Active hardeners have a passive mode for when youÆre against nos ships. Passive tanks can have activated modules on, otherwise my railgun ships wouldnÆt count as passive tanks.
ôI think that a lot of people get confused by the term 'passive tank', as they are told that a Drake is best as a passive tank, yet this isn't really true. A Drake is best tanked as a hybrid mix of passive shield rechargers and active hardeners.ö
But thatÆs a passive tank not a hybrid. Passive tanks are tanks where you heal 100% passively without turning modules on and off. No matter if your afk or hit lag you heal passively.
ItÆs still a passive tank no matter what hardeners you choose as hardeners are not to do with HPregen/healing directly.
____
ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 11:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Luyshin
"Passive" just means you don't have a shield booster.
Passive means that no cap is used.
There are several types of shield tanks:
Active: shield boosted, uses cap all the time.
Passive: Recharge mods/extenders/resistance amps. No cap use.
Hybrid: All the same as the passive tank, except active. hardeners.
|
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 11:58:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/05/2008 11:58:14
ôPassive means that no cap is used.ö
That is wrong. Passive means you heal passively without turning modules on and off. It does not mean you use zero cap.
Hybrid is when you use a mix a boosting passive HP regen and shield boosters. Passive can have cap use.
____
ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
skuko
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 11:59:00 -
[20]
Edited by: skuko on 19/05/2008 11:59:40
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
Originally by: Luyshin
"Passive" just means you don't have a shield booster.
Passive means that no cap is used.
There are several types of shield tanks:
Active: shield boosted, uses cap all the time.
Passive: Recharge mods/extenders/resistance amps. No cap use.
Hybrid: All the same as the passive tank, except active. hardeners.
imho false...
active: active shield HP regeneration (shield boosters)
passive: natural shield HP regeneration (no boosters. shield rechargers, shield power relays)
active vs. passive tanking does not incorporate hardeners/amps
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 12:56:00 -
[21]
It's a naming convention ferchrissakes, there's no "right" or "wrong" way to say it... there's just "the USUAL" way to say it.
You could call it "passively regenerating, cap-stable, active-hardener shield tank"... or you could just call it "passive tank".
For the sake of BREVITY and concisiveness, these are the "usually agreed upon" short names of things:
active tank = tank using an armor repper or shield booster ; nobody cares how hardening is done, whatever fits
passive tank = implicitly understood as passive shield tank, repair by natural regen ; still nobody cares how hardening is done
plated tank = implicitly understood as passive armor tank, no self-regen, just buffer ; still no care for hardening type
capless tank (or "NOS-proof tank") = implicitly understood as variation of the passive shield tank ; tank uses no capacitor whatsoever - obviously, now we do care about hardenening type - using shield resistance amplifiers
You can argue how you WANT TO NAME the different tanking types, but what you see above is what most people understand when they use those terms... because they come forth logically.
Active, because it requires your interaction to turn tank on/off at the appropriate moments (the "perma-run" active tank setups are just a subset of active tank setups, where you can keep everything running indefinitely... most active tanks, especially in PvP, they use cap injectors).
Passive, because short of turning on the hardeners when you undock or jump, there's nothing else you can do.
Capless or nos-proof, because you use no capacitor.
What's so hard to understand ?
1|2|3|4|5. |
Leeluvv
The Black Ops
Black Core Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 16:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/05/2008 11:58:14
ôPassive means that no cap is used.ö
That is wrong. Passive means you heal passively without turning modules on and off. It does not mean you use zero cap.
Hybrid is when you use a mix a boosting passive HP regen and shield boosters. Passive can have cap use.
You keep tying yourself in knots. Please read what you write. You heal faster if you TURN ON hardeners whilst still taking damage, which contradicts your definition of passive tanking, but not mine. I know what you are trying to say, but you need to write for novices to be able to understand, not just for experienced players to be able to work out what you meant.
Please will all the experienced and knowledgeable players stop making assumptions and start to think why new players get confused by this. You claim that for passive tanking, how you use your resists is irrelevant, yet hardeners are an active device and amplifiers are a passive device. You cannot say that how you use your resist modules is irrelevant, as they are an inherent part of your tank.
I agree with everything that has been said, if you are referring to shield regen, but, funnily enough, the same people claiming that resist module use is irrelevant are the same people that would slam me if I posted that resists were irrelevant to tanking. Tanking is TWO functions that you are combining and you have to consider both. If half of your tank is provided by an active module, is that really passive tanking? Note I said 'tanking', not 'shield regen'.
My ship's tank with passive regen and active hardeners is not cap stable. Is this an active tank or a passive tank, as I use Cap Boosters to sustain it? Personally, I think it's a hybrid tank.
Think why so many new players get confused and it is not 'simple', as you imply, because your definitions are not consistent.
Lee
==
Sig to follow |
AnKahn
Caldari
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 18:19:00 -
[23]
You want simple? I've got a simple way to define active and passive.
If you have to consider the following question you have an active tank.
Active Tank Question "How many hitpoints can I regenerate with X amount of cap?"
If that question does not apply to your ship, you have a passive tank.
|
Pax Empyrean
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 18:31:00 -
[24]
How about this: "Do I have to turn something on?" If yes, then it's active. If not, then it's passive.
|
COMBAT64
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 18:36:00 -
[25]
my drake setup tanks around 900dps
the only thing that uses cap is the invul/tractor and salvager
so u can tank till ur heart cant bleed
cap lasts around 30 min with everything on
have fun 
high...
6 arblast heavy launchers
1 tractor beam
1 salvager
med...
2 shield recharger II
1 inulnerability field II
3 large shield extender II
low...
4 shield power relay II
rigs...
3 core defence field purger I
drones...
5 warrior II
implants...
slot6.. hardwiring-zainou'gnome'kua1000
slot7.. hardwiring-zainou'gnome'kva1000
slot9.. hardwiring-zainou'gnome'kya1000
|
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 21:55:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/05/2008 21:56:22
ôYou keep tying yourself in knots. Please read what you write. You heal faster if you TURN ON hardeners whilst still taking damage,ö
I am not trying myself in knots. You donÆt heal faster with active hardeners; you take less damage big difference. With hardeners on or off it takes the same amount of time to heal to 100% as your HP regen stays the same if the same setup is used apart from hardeners. The person with higher resistance might need to heal less as he might be on say 60% instead of 50% but both tanks have the same HP regen rate. Healing from 70 to 100% takes the same amount of time with what ever resistance modules you use.
ôwhich contradicts your definition of passive tanking, but not mine.ö
It does not contradict my definition. Read my guide for the full definition. There is no contradiction.
Your definition means 99% of the original passive tanks are no longer passive tanks. ThatÆs why I donÆt like your definition. When you come up with a definition that means the 2+ years worth of original passive tanks setups are no longer classed as passive tanks you have something wrong with the definition.
ôYou claim that for passive tanking, how you use your resists is irrelevant, yet hardeners are an active device and amplifiers are a passive device. You cannot say that how you use your resist modules is irrelevant, as they are an inherent part of your tank.ö
I never said resist modules are irrelevant. I said resist modules are not part of what makes a ship a passive or active tank. Just like the speed mods and weapon systems donÆt change if itÆs a passive or active tank.
If active hardenersÆ are no longer passive tanks then what next activated missile launchers are no longer passive tanks!
ôMy ship's tank with passive regen and active hardeners is not cap stable. Is this an active tank or a passive tank, as I use Cap Boosters to sustain it? Personally, I think it's a hybrid tank.ö
Going by my guide and definitions thats a passive tank that needs extra cap as you have a lot of none HP regen modules that need cap. Unless xx% of the cap is going towards defence then its a hybrid.
If you use cap to HP regen itÆs a active tank, if you donÆt use cap to HP regen its a passive tank. ItÆs that simple. Hardeners donÆt factor into it by my original definition, the extended definition factors in cap used for defence. Why after all these years should we change the definition? There is no need to change the original definition itÆs been clear and working fine for years. If I ever get the guide fully rewritten I dont see a need to update the definition's in a way to make original passive tanks no longer passive tanks.
____
ôToo many times. Too many times have the addictions of man destroyed the progress of ages. History is about to fail us again, and deny us the right to walk among you once more.ö |
MR Wa1sh
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 22:59:00 -
[27]
how to passive tank sheilds ?
the idea is to not draw any energy for tanking meaning they can never stop you from tanking with neuts etc. So for that you pretty much use extenders and rechargers all which will up your tank ability while not drawing energy. I however take passive tanking to mean "low energy consumption" meaning less then 1/4 of you cap. This i believe makes for the optimal set ups extenders and rechargers with a invul field or two for resistance + rigs you can tank a drake up around 800 easy. Although if i where you id just switch to a ship that armor tanks :P
|
Siberys
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 23:06:00 -
[28]
You fail at this game if you don't know how to passive tank. Second, any skill that increases armor/shields/structure/resistances of the above mentioned helps a passive tank, and paasive modules are always on.
|
Washell Olivaw
|
Posted - 2008.05.19 23:19:00 -
[29]
I started playing eve roughly 2 years ago. Back then there was a debate going about what constitutes a passive tank. As readers of this thread can see. It's still going on.
Come on people, most of you experienced players know there are 2 camps on the passive side. 1 that claims that using no cap is the key, the other that using no shield boosting is the key. Just state both and move on instead of posting pages of text trying to end a debate that is unlikely to be ended.
Originally by: Signature
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
|
Cpl Punnishment
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.05.20 02:48:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Cpl Punnishment on 20/05/2008 02:48:11
I myself dabbled in Pacifism once.... Not in Nam of course...
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |