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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
Swearte Widfarend
Mortis Noir.
30
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:15:00 -
[241] - Quote
So I actually raged and commented before reading the second half of the blog at all. 
Back on the skill tree though, I like the idea that if a character has (for example) Gallente Frigate V, Minmatar Frigate V, Caldari Frigate V, Amarr Frigate IV and Destroyers V, they should get Gallente Destroyers V, Minmatar Destroyers V, Caldari Destroyers V, Amarr Destroyers IV. The same idea for Cruisers/Battlecruisers, and no SP refunds. I think this was the most sane comment in the ones I read.
As for restructuring the ship classes, that's pretty cool, although I think it's stupid to move the prerequisite for Racial Carrier from Racial BattleshipV to Racial Battleship IV. I know that's crazy, but remember that in addition to the Carrier skill, you have to learn a whole baseline skill (Capital Ships) because this is a bigger move than just the next class of ship.
Capital ships are the only ships that have unique skills for their support modules (energy transfer/shield transfer/armor repair), and that distinction exists by having a maximized sub capital skill tree. I'd actually suggest the following change to Carrier prerequisites:
Racial Battleship V
Spaceship Command V
Racial Battlecruiser IV
Spaceship Command IV
Racial Cruiser IV
Spaceship Command III
Racial Frigate IV
Spaceship Command I
EDIT (failed snipe) |
Hitokiri Battoesai
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
0
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:15:00 -
[242] - Quote
If you guys really are planning on making any changes to what you need to train to fly certain ships. Then the only logical thing to do is give everyone all there skill points back under the spaceship command skill section. |
Laura Dexx
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:15:00 -
[243] - Quote
You really should have thought the blog through more thoroughly. Instead you're left with angry replies of people who *gasp* crosstrained and a threadnought in the making. |
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
647
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 19:15:00 -
[244] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up. Not empty quoting.
Does not fix. The cross-race specialization aspect of battlecruisers should absolutely be preserved.
Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
Luscius Uta
Killers of Paranoid Souls
10
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:15:00 -
[245] - Quote
Ethino wrote:So you're basicly telling me that i just wasted 26days to train for a Thanatos for NOTHING? 
No, learn to read, you'll still keep your Gallente Battleship trained to V with all its beneftis apllied to Gallente battleships you fly. Unless you trained it to V just so you can get in a Thanny, in which case you made a bad decision of spending 30 days of training just to have a slightly better Carrier than other races can offer.
I also wish I trained projectile turrets instead of lousy hybrids, but guess what, I have to stick with them now and I have to consider myself lucky because CCP made hybrids less sucky with Crucible. I would be happier if they reimbursed my skill points, but that doesn't mean my skillpoints put into hybrids are wasted. Training skill like Astrometic Acquisition to V is a waste, training any weapon or ship skill to V isn't. |
The Economist
Logically Consistent
12
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:16:00 -
[246] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:The Economist wrote:Are you ******* insane? Not only is this a complete and utter waste of time and resources but it's badly thought out to boot. I have a character with all racial frigate and cruiser skills at 5 as well as destroyers and battlecruisers 5. Are you honestly going to make me train 4 racial bc and destroyer skills to 5 to have access to the same ships and get the same performance? Seriously? No bs 5 req for caps? **** off. If you go ahead with this are you going to give us all back a month of training time? Why not let everyone start with bc 4, make it take 1 week to get to min bs 4 then give everyone a free carrier for training the skill; hyperbolous I know...but what a funny coincidence that caps requiring only bs lvl 4 is an un-expected side-effect from trying to "maintain progression consistency"...yeah people have been crying about this for 8 years.  T2 skill progression; personally I always liked it, imo it actually gives you a nice steady progression which forces you to try different classes you otherwise might never have looked at. You say having to train assault ships > heavy assault ships > command ships is redundant; I say it's an elegant system. So far this seems to be Eve online: Infernally badly thought out patch. As far as the so-called benefits listed at the end of the blog: ships in need of hp and slots will still need them after you bugger around with skills and tier concepts. Balancing that needs doing won't be done by these changes, is possible now and will still be possible afterwards; likewise looking at a range of ships and seeing if there's one missing....there have been threads on those subjects for years. I'm actually quite worried that someone green-lit this proposal as a valuable way to spend manpower. [Yes I'm a bitter vet knee-jerk posting] the post above yours
As pointed out by others that needs to be emphasised heavily because it's not the message that comes across. Also all my other complaints still stand, I think this is a terrible waste of time and focus. If you have to do all this to achieve a negligible change to a subjectively smoothly working system then imo you're doing something wrong.
Also you say the aim is "if you could fly it yesterday you'll be able to fly it tomorrow"; well the blog talks about reimbursing skill points, and it talks about racial bc skills. Will the reimbursed skills from bc 5 be enough to instantly put all 4 racial bc skills to 5? If it's not I get screwed; if it is then it's not going to be uniformly fair unless you come up with a system of varying the sp's given per person based on how many racial cruisers they had at 5 or something similar. Just all seems needless. |
Heimdallofasgard
Blazing Celts
109
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:16:00 -
[247] - Quote
Hahahaha I love how soundwave is trying to make a point and everyone is just ignoring him and continuing to rant
IF YOU CAN FLY IT TODAY... YOU'LL BE ABLE TO FLY IT TOMORROW!!! |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
The Laughing Men
61
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:16:00 -
[248] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Isn't it our job to define roles for particular ships, not yours?
Quoted for Truth. does the term sandbox mean anything to anyone anymore? |
FOFOFOFOOOO
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:16:00 -
[249] - Quote
Its nice to see CCP adding new skills to the game instead of rehashing old ones. I too look forward to retraining into what I can already fly.
On a side note its quite funny to see that it now takes less time to get into a dread then a black ops bs. Good thing they fixed black ops bs. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
930
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:16:00 -
[250] - Quote
Shin Dari wrote:
The only thing I am hearing fro you is a lot of whining. And CCP Soundwave said that we are going to get compensated, he didn't say how. Or even how flexible the compensation will be. I am hoping it will be flexible enough to take everybody into account.
He has repeatedly said that if I can fly it today I'll be able to fly it after the patch. You are being silly and I am no longer worried.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries
Dark Stripes
209
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:16:00 -
[251] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Papa Boats wrote:Bitter vet checking in.
I am really annoyed about having to retrain destroyer and BC for 3 races to have them all maxed again. I am at 90mil+ SP and currently have every T1 and T2 ship available to me. I have all T2 weapons at my disposal. I like it this way as I am able to use the very best ships and weapons whenever I need them. I worked hard for this and feel that this would negativly impact the few players who hate supercaps online the way I do.
As I feel what should happen if the racial destroyers and BC if it goes through should be. SP and cost of SB should go back into the pilots account. Also all SP and costs for command ships and interdictors should go back to the pilot. Furthermore any further skills and capital ships that require these ships should be dropped.
I say this for a couple reasons. I will not retrain 4 racial destroyers just so I can fly an interdictor thats outperformed by a HIC which I do not need to train for to have the better and stronger ship. Also for command ships why would I need this skill as the ships do not always match up. I am in the CFC meaning the CMD ship I need is either the cald or minm ships. While the capital ships I fly are the Thanny and the Moros. It is going to make it extremly difficult and add lots of time to getting me into my capital ships if these changes are not well thought out. No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up. Not empty quoting.
if you are now to give us 3 more destroyers lv5's and 3 more bc lv5's if we had them at 5 before, lv4 x 4 for lv4 ,lv 3 x 4 for lv3 etc etc..
can you just say it mr soundwave and avoid more spam about it, be nice if we can get back to the good part of the blog please
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
495
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:17:00 -
[252] - Quote
CONTRADICTORY IMAGES, PLEASE CLARIFY
These images don't line up :
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Skilltreeafter_1920.jpg
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg
In the first image you're saying you want to break away from having prerequisites based on T2 Frigate hulls to get to T2 Cruiser hulls. And the second image you're going back to saying you need the prerequisites for T2 Frigates to get to T2 Cruisers?
Which is it?
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
7
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:17:00 -
[253] - Quote
It all sounds pretty good, you probably want to get amarr and gallente on par with minmatar and caldari before you change the skill trees. Otherwise we'll be flying them less than we already do. This new system of skill training will make it much easier to skill an alt for a specific ship much faster than before, good stuff.  |
Aida Nu
Nu Industries
27
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:17:00 -
[254] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:You really should have thought the blog through more thoroughly. Instead you're left with angry replies of people who *gasp* crosstrained and a threadnought in the making.
Nothing wrong with the devblog.
People just need to learn how to read.
They said that they will reimburse and have no problems being generous when doing it. |
Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
31
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:18:00 -
[255] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Makalu Zarya wrote:So let me get this straight...you are going take people who can fly and have flown ALL battlecruisers perfectly and go...sorry we are gonna nerf you, enjoy retraining everything for another 4 months...oh and you can't fly command ships now either, because you have to train bc skill to V for all the respective races?
and same thing for dictors?
am I right or am i missing something here?
You're missing something :)
I find myself agreeing with Makalu here. You're looking at three options:
1. BC5 will get reimbursed and the equivalent skillpoint will get all players to racial BC5. Result, veteran players are overjoyed and get to keep playing. New players are screwed, as they'll now have to train even further to get the skills.
2. BC5 will get reimbursed for the equivalent of one racial BC5 skill. Result, new players are still screwed compared to before as they'll not only have longer to progress for battleships, but crosstraining is prohibitively harder. Veteran players are screwed as their ships will be unplayable until they retrain a skill they once had.
3. A mix between the two above, and/or with racial BC skill requirements being way lower than intended. Result, new players are still at a disadvantage compared to today. Veteran players will still get the shaft due to them not being reimbursed with the equivalent amount of skills they lost.
Am I still missing something? Are both I and Makalu wrong? Please communicate your intentions to us then, so that we do not misunderstand it.
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Tarsas Phage
Pain Delivery.
43
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:18:00 -
[256] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up.
TBQH this devbog shouldn't have been published without this important detail. The mystery surrounding it is causing a lot of needless consternation.
/T |
Intermittent Fault
Punning Clan
0
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:18:00 -
[257] - Quote
I think alot of people might be missing something here.
If new "defined-role" ships are getting new bonusses, it's as sensible to attach these to the new role skills as the base ship skill. If you only need Caldari Cruiser 1 to fly any Caldari cruiser, one of the bonusses for the ship can be based on that skill and the other on a role skill. It would then be sensible to reduce the rank of the cruiser skill so that cruiser+role skill rank = old cruiser skill rank.
Similarly with other ship classes. Role skills would be generic ie non-racial. Whether role skills should be class-specific
would depend on how the numbers work out. Alternatively, the role bonus could be a flat bonus which requires a certain level of role skill depending on the class (an EW cruiser gets +20% if you have EW role to level 3, EW BS needs level 5 to get its bonus).
I'm not going to try to think in detail about how the numbers might work out, but if the refund from Battlecruisers was enough to instantly buy 2 racial BC skills to level 5 and 1-2 role skills to 4 or 5 that goes a long way to reducing the problems, either directly or by reducing the number of free SPs that would have to be given out.
Of course, the fact that so many people have cross-trained demonstrates what a mess the current system is. If the new system turns out to be good enough that people don't feel the need to cross-train then the tears can safely be tanked. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
Tactical Invader Syndicate
212
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:19:00 -
[258] - Quote
Did the CSM see this blog before it was published? |
Svennig
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
69
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:19:00 -
[259] - Quote
First of all: THANK YOU so much for having the balls to suggest some serious changes to the system. Changes of this magnitude are exactly what's needed, and I welcome them. I look forward to the details of the reimbursement of skills as this will be critical to how this will be received by the player base.
I've got three main points:
I'm glad that there's a commitment to make sure that people who currently fly command ships (or dictors) will be able to do so afterwards (through whatever mechanism). I'd also like to urge that, however it's done, it doesn't adversely affect new players to the game. Battlecruiser is one of the best skills in the game currently as it grants so much flexibility - making newbros have to train this four times seems to be a little bit unfair.
I don't know how I feel about the lower requirements for capital ships. On one hand, it makes cross-training capitals comically easy, and it gets players into carriers faster than before. On the other hand, is that a good idea? It's going to lead to some bad carrier pilots and some hilarious killmails. I'm not sure, I can see both sides. I wonder what proportion of people find the need to train a racial BS V a hurdle which they don't take (or at least, don't take until much later in their eve career when they have a better understanding of the game)
The final one is that I'm not 100% sure that I like the removal of progression and the isolation of each skill. For example, currently in order to fly Interdictors you must have Evasive Manoeuvering V (as a prereq for interceptors). This heirarchy of prerequisites from "lower" ship classes is useful as it gives guidance on what skills are important to flying that class of ships and that can really help out newer players. I'd like to suggest, therefore, that the skill requirements be flattened and merged to make sure that evasive maneuvering is still a requirement for dictors (for example) rather than being lost when the requirement of interceptors is removed. |
Ardal Cearul
Saiph Industries
SRS.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:19:00 -
[260] - Quote
Manssell wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:...We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.
Understatement of the day.
QFT |
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Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
806
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:20:00 -
[261] - Quote
FOFOFOFOOOO wrote:On a side note its quite funny to see that it now takes less time to get into a dread then a black ops bs. Good thing they fixed black ops bs.
+ 1 like
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BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
124
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:20:00 -
[262] - Quote
I'm not so sure I like this idea. In theory it sounds great, simplify the training route, make this a clear progression, etc. Then theory comes crashing headlong into reality. Others have said it. they live in wormholes and -need- to be able to fly every version of battlecruiser, that's what they've been relying on for years. Or people like me who may not need it, but I've stocked up on several different T1 and T2 destroyer and BC hulls, what do I do with those?
You respond with "if you can fly it before, you'll be able to fly it afterwards" Ok, that's a reasonable response that'll keep players happy. However, as others have said, you're going to have to reimburse a LOT of skillpoints for a LOT of people. If you're fine with this ok.
What about people that have OVER trained for stuff? Gallente Battleship 5 is absolutely worthless (what else am I going to fly? Kronos? Sin? lol) EXCEPT that it opens the door to Thanatos, Moros, Nyx, etc. Do I get my BS 5 skillpoints back since I don't need to train it that high anymore?
There's a ton of other issues players have brought up these last few pages, most of which tie into one of the above. It just seems like a huge can of worms to open. I'm sure the game designers have their own view on whats working and what's broken, but I don't think I've ever seen the players complain about the ship skill training path. If it ain't broke (from the players perspective), don't fix it, right?
Again, it sounds good in theory. If it's that important to the game play that this be done, fine. Just be aware that if you don't refund a metric crapton of skill points, there's going to be backlash from one group. If you do refund all that SP, there's going to be backlash from another group. This is one of those issues where I don't think you'll be able to make everyone happy. I'd recommend treading lightly, doing a lot of CSM discussion, and keeping the players informed early and often so there's no surprises.
PS. If you do it, let me know soon so I can start training BC to 5 and thus get all of the command ships reimbursed to me when this rolls out.
As for the ships category. I never really had a problem with the tier system, but I guess if this allows you to do the much needed balancing, then run with it. I don't think this will cause nearly as many problems as the skill thing.
Also, who put the Ferox in the "combat ships" category :P
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Akelorian
FinFleet
Raiden.
9
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:20:00 -
[263] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hahahaha I love how soundwave is trying to make a point and everyone is just ignoring him and continuing to rant
IF YOU CAN FLY IT TODAY... YOU'LL BE ABLE TO FLY IT TOMORROW!!!
Cause he's a Goon |
Heimdallofasgard
Blazing Celts
109
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:20:00 -
[264] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up. Not empty quoting. Does not fix. The cross-race specialization aspect of battlecruisers should absolutely be preserved.
Cross training vs Specialisation argument,
Cross training is encouraged by racial similarities such as armour and shield tanking as well, missles on the t2 amarr boats, hybrids on caldari, BC skill isn't the only thing encouraging cross training. |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE
Goonswarm Federation
49
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:20:00 -
[265] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:EDIT SO PEOPLE CAN SEE IT:
- New destroyer and battlecruiser skills would be same rank than existing ones
- We have a "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" philosophy, that means properly reimbursing/giving skills not to leave people stranded in ships they could fly before the change. Again, nothing is fixed yet.
hey guys stop crying ! they already accepted ! |
ShadowFire15
BOAE INC
GIANTSBANE.
64
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:20:00 -
[266] - Quote
looking forward to seeing what the final plan is going to be
Stan Smith
had a snow storm over weekend guy was shoveling snow outside, so i shot him and mined the snow myself. concord never showed up. on an unrelated note, i have a court date next tuesday |
Prioleau
Four Bird LTD.
1
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:21:00 -
[267] - Quote
IF YOU CAN FLY IT TODAY... YOU'LL BE ABLE TO FLY IT TOMORROW!!!  |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1089
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:21:00 -
[268] - Quote
Wow, a lot of people skip over pertinent details in their haste to post.
Bitter Vets, in effect you will likely end up being given free skills that newer players will have to manually train up when they get to that point.
This also means that most ships will be buffed and generally made useful in ways that make sense as to how they are used... especially the myriad of useless ships that now clutters the tier system.
Get a grip.
When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
127
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:21:00 -
[269] - Quote
Arline Kley wrote:I'm surprised they had to wiki-link an Oil Platform.
But Oil Platform dont go boom when you hit it with a rock - like mining barges/exumers in EVE. |
Landredas
Insectopia
0
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:21:00 -
[270] - Quote
After the third time it was stated that ships we can fly now, we'll be able to fly after, let's just say i was starting to get the idea. I can only assume that most of the people screaming and yelling about how things are unfair that they will not be able to fly ships they can currently fly after this reorganization are trolling. Although now that i think about it, there is no need to attribute intelligence where stupidity could very well be the more likely reason.
It would be nice to have some of the "useless" ships have a bit of a resurgence in popularity. Balance ships, and scrap things that don't make sense (target painting for minmatar).
Do what you will, just don't screw it up CCP! |
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