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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
276
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Posted - 2012.03.06 21:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
Mister Alt wrote:If they do as they say and let you fly everything you can now then there's going to be some major SP whorage.
Either:
1) They look at which cruisers you have to 3 and give you enough SP to get the racial battlecruiser skills to whatever you ahve battlecruisers at now, at which point everyone and their ****** cousin trains every cruiser to 3 for more remappable SP, regardless of whether they put it into that racial BC.
Or, well... I dont know.
What I do know is someone shouldnt let their cousin do game design.
Possibly. But if it doesn't change your capabilities, big deal?
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Splodger
Ausbruch
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:15:00 -
[62] - Quote
Just so I understand...
If I have BC IV and they split up the groups I potentially have to train each race so 4x up to "respective BC V" ?
BUT iam curious Do i need to now go train up all the IV skills i have to V before the change to get the most out of this new change i.e
Command Ships V
Logistics V
Heavy assault V
Covops V
Recon V
etc, etc so when the change does happen I get rank V in each race or is it only BC and destroyer skills affected?!
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Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
596
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:19:00 -
[63] - Quote
Other than the issues of how they are going to do the dessie and BC stuff, looks good.
Though I'm going to spend a killer of a time refitting my ships depending on how extensive the changes are. |
Amber Lumiere
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:25:00 -
[64] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Dumbing down eve?
More like making it more complicated.
Yes, "dumbing down" has become a charge made by people who don't like changes. Nine times out of ten, people use it when what's occurring is making the game more intelligent. People usually indicate their own lack of intelligence by considering it "dumbing down" when you remove something that didn't require intelligence to begin with, indicating they apparently found something complicated that really wasn't, or they simply don't understand what the phrase "dumbing down" means. Removing something tedious is the thing that most often draws these charges, despite the fact that removing tedium in no way dumbs things down, as it requires no more intelligence to wait 17 days than 10, for example. Calling that "dumbing down" just indicates you're a moron.
The charge is certainly misplaced here in any case. Certain things are becoming shorting trains, but other things are becoming much longer. The change from a single Destroyers and BC skill, for example, will now require training in four different skills to get what you used to get with one. And new skills are being added to support various roles, which will need to be trained. It's a rebalancing, with some things getting cheaper and others more expensive. But that's complicated, so more simple minded people are simply going to see it as "dumbing down" or the opposite due to their inability to understand situations that can't be summed up in 140 characters or less. No doubt the same people who get mad when you answer their "simple" questions with "it depends..." /eyeroll
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Liam Mirren
315
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Posted - 2012.03.06 21:27:00 -
[65] - Quote
Contrary to the whiners, this is NOT dumbing down (if it were I'd be whining with you), it's making things less idiotic and more logical. Honestly, I can't wait to see this further fleshed out.
Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
223
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:32:00 -
[66] - Quote
All T1 combat ships already trained to V crew checking in to say the removal of the tier system is a good thing. Well potentially. My worry would be that today's question of "why would I ever want to fly X" will be replaced with "t1 ships are all so similar now, why should I fly X as opposed to Y?" The challenge for CCP will be to buff up the lower-tier ships while keeping a semblance of semi-defined roles for them, but without making T2 ships undesirable. Why fly a Taranis if the Atron has buffed slot and turret layouts and costs 1% of the price, for example.
"For example, if you are thinking about selling a Republic Fleet Firetail as a regular Firetail, be sure that the market volume is high on regular Firetails and that there are plenty of buy/sell contracts for Republic Fleet Firetails. [...] The players most interested in Republic Fleet Firetails are going to be players flying regular ones."-á -- PB |
Cindy Marco
Expanse Security
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:33:00 -
[67] - Quote
Yay! Eve version of NGE! 
But seriously, I like how battle cruisers and destroyers aren't in the normal line of advancement. If you don't care for them you can skip them completely, if you like them you can train for them. They are really more like heavy variants of cruisers and frigs. They use the same size mods, just more of them. And for that advantage they are slower and have a bigger signature.
Of course if they want to take BC 5 and dessie 5 and give me level 5 in all 8 racial skills, I guess I would be ok with that. Otherwise its a huge nerf. Having to train up 3 additional bc and 3 additional dessie skills to 5 would just be wrong. Its pretty unfair to new players, because the older players are getting a ton of free sp. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic
Tragedy.
1179
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
I still don't think this is removing Tiers. So long as you have a specific requirement to fly a ship and it has stats comparable to the same ship of another race...it is a tier. Until you can fly all Caldari Battleships by having Battleships 1 and all the battleships have the same stats and slots then they will always be separated by a tier even if it is not called a tier.
EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
387
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:35:00 -
[69] - Quote
Splodger wrote:Just so I understand...
If I have BC IV and they split up the groups I potentially have to train each race so 4x up to "respective BC V" ?
BUT iam curious Do i need to now go train up all the IV skills i have to V before the change to get the most out of this new change i.e
Command Ships V
Logistics V
Heavy assault V
Covops V
Recon V
etc, etc so when the change does happen I get rank V in each race or is it only BC and destroyer skills affected?!
That's a good question. I'm in the same boat having most of my SPC skills at or around V. I think the answer though is going to be pretty complex... Here's how I think it may go down:
- "Split" skills would be granted to you at a rate you can fly and the racial skills will be awarded and upgraded to match. I, for example, have Destroyers V and all race frigate skills at V, so I would get 4x racial destroyer skills @ V. Good for me, but what if you had Minmatar & Gallente frigate at IV, Amarr @ III and caldari @ I, and had destroyers at V? You would get minmatar and gallente destroyer at V, and that's it. I can see where we start getting into hurt feelings here... now to get caldari and amarr destroyers you need to train 2x destroyer skills.
....* damn. This is going to be a mess. My Recon Ships is only at 2... maybe I should train it to V too... damn there are a lot of generic spaceship command skills. Should we all be getting them to V to max this? Will it be like a 4x training modifier in the long run? Somebody break this down for me... my brain is too simple for this.
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Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
425
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Posted - 2012.03.06 21:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
Dbars Grinding wrote:Caps a and Tech 3s for everyone!!!
you win a cap!
and you win a cap!
You all win caps!!!!
/Oprah meme
Yep. It is the skill training time that determines the number of capital ships in EVE. It stands to reason. I mean, those who think skill cost, ship cost and actual needs and usage in the corp/alliance you are in plays any role whatsoever just doesnt understand anything, right?
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Aarin Wrath
East Khanid Laboratories
Khanid Trade Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.03.06 21:53:00 -
[71] - Quote
Edit: Nevermind. I seems like this is just a troll thread of inflammatory posts. |
Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
223
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:54:00 -
[72] - Quote
Cindy Marco wrote:Its pretty unfair to new players, because the older players are getting a ton of free sp.
But new players got a lot of free SP indirectly via the removal of learning skills and the buff to default learning speed. This seems like a fair tradeoff for having new skills added to the game that have to be trained separately.
"For example, if you are thinking about selling a Republic Fleet Firetail as a regular Firetail, be sure that the market volume is high on regular Firetails and that there are plenty of buy/sell contracts for Republic Fleet Firetails. [...] The players most interested in Republic Fleet Firetails are going to be players flying regular ones."-á -- PB |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
164
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:54:00 -
[73] - Quote
Even more fun, I have BC a 4 right now and I use BC to 5 as a dump point for short skills (Can't inject Scrapmetal Processing until I get Metallurgy to V so I tack BC on the end of the training queue in case I forget). When BC splits to four racials do I get four partial racials on their way to V?
Well, I was thinking about BC to 5 over time, now it appear to be BC to 5 NOW.
I don't always finish my commentary, but when I do |
Kill Rockstar
Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
Is this real life |
Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
223
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:18:00 -
[75] - Quote
Kill Rockstar wrote:Is this real life
EveIsReal(dot net)
I was there.
"For example, if you are thinking about selling a Republic Fleet Firetail as a regular Firetail, be sure that the market volume is high on regular Firetails and that there are plenty of buy/sell contracts for Republic Fleet Firetails. [...] The players most interested in Republic Fleet Firetails are going to be players flying regular ones."-á -- PB |
M5 Tuttle
The Shadow Plague
BLACK-MARK
35
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:29:00 -
[76] - Quote
How does this in any way dumb down the game?
Here's my opinion:
1) Rebalancing tiered T1 ships --> Awesome. Every other change could be total **** and I'd still be happy because of this.
2) Making BC and Dest skills racial --> Fine as long as they reimburse points or change training times in a way that doesn't make it so that people can't fly their ships anymore.
3) Battleships take longer to train to --> who cares?
4) Capitals don't take as long to train to --> I don't like this and I can't even fly capital ships. I doubt they are going to do this anyway.
Overall, I like the changes as long as they execute them well. Anyone saying this is "dumbing down the game" should explain why, because I'd love to hear it. |
Burnt Alaska
Wild Wombat's
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:31:00 -
[77] - Quote
Mmmm yummy tears..  |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
245
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:42:00 -
[78] - Quote
This is a bold move completely inline with what many has asked for, including OP if I am not mistaken. There will be problems for sure and a lot of players will whine because their particular play style somehow got nerfed. But this could be really really good for the game and it is definitely not dumbing it down, quite the contrary since there will be more diversity on the field if done right. If anything, it will make EVE harder to master skillwise (not SP). |
Alara IonStorm
1745
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:43:00 -
[79] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:including OP if I am not mistaken.
That iz correct!  |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:50:00 -
[80] - Quote
At 12 ship types I can see why the BC skill needs to get split. Not sure what the point is of splitting destroyer skill when we only have 4 destroyers in game. |
stoicfaux
767
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 23:01:00 -
[81] - Quote
CP Ytterbium clarified a few important bits: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=900335#post900335
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
846
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 23:10:00 -
[82] - Quote
I didn't want to make a real comment until I went over that blog a few times to be sure I understood it properly.
My conclusion is this: This is how it should have been since the beginning. It's a logical, straight forward progression that is intuitive and makes perfect sense.
Will it be a messy transition? No doubt.
Do they need to spend some time making it fair to all? Absolutely
Does the reallocation of SP or simply giving SP need to be handled with great tact and diplomacy? **** yeah.
But all that aside. And once the furor dies down. I think most will appreciate that this just feels right and is the way it should have always been.
Mr Epeen 
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Rei Seiji
Production N Destruction INC.
The Last Chancers.
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 23:50:00 -
[83] - Quote
I rather like the theory of it, especially the removal of the tier system. It is rather annoying having a variety of ships, and yet only seeing the same ones flown over and over again because while ship a is pretty nice, for 10% more isk you could fly one that's much much better. |
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 00:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
If weGÇÖve already GÇ£maxedGÇ¥ out training in skills such as cruiser, battlecruiser, command ship, battleship and/or any of the capitals, are we going to be required to rob from Peter to give to Paul now (just so they can add another skill or two)GǪ
Sure, they will give us some skill points but will it be enough to still have 5GÇÖs across the board? IGÇÖm not sure if anyone has considered this but what about our shipfits that required level 5 just to even fit the damn thing properly?
CCP Soundwave wrote:No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up.
Just because IGÇÖll be able to fly it at level 3 or 4 after the change Mr. Peabody doesnGÇÖt mean itGÇÖs the same as me flying it at level 5 nowGǪ Reallocating skillpoints to fix something that should've been considered from the get-go, without complete compensation, is just another time sinkGǪgeez |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
280
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 00:12:00 -
[85] - Quote
Flex Carter wrote:If weGÇÖve already GÇ£maxedGÇ¥ out training in skills such as cruiser, battlecruiser, command ship, battleship and/or any of the capitals, are we going to be required to rob from Peter to give to Paul now (just so they can add another skill or two)GǪ Sure, they will give us some skill points but will it be enough to still have 5GÇÖs across the board? IGÇÖm not sure if anyone has considered this but what about our shipfits that required level 5 just to even fit the damn thing properly? CCP Soundwave wrote:No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up. Just because IGÇÖll be able to fly it at level 3 or 4 after the change Mr. Peabody doesnGÇÖt mean itGÇÖs the same as me flying it at level 5 nowGǪ Reallocating skillpoints to fix something that should've been considered from the get-go, without complete compensation, is just another time sinkGǪgeez
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=900335#post900335
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
847
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 00:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
Flex Carter wrote:If weGÇÖve already GÇ£maxedGÇ¥ out training in skills such as cruiser, battlecruiser, command ship, battleship and/or any of the capitals, are we going to be required to rob from Peter to give to Paul now (just so they can add another skill or two)GǪ Sure, they will give us some skill points but will it be enough to still have 5GÇÖs across the board? IGÇÖm not sure if anyone has considered this but what about our shipfits that required level 5 just to even fit the damn thing properly? CCP Soundwave wrote:No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up. Just because IGÇÖll be able to fly it at level 3 or 4 after the change Mr. Peabody doesnGÇÖt mean itGÇÖs the same as me flying it at level 5 nowGǪ Reallocating skillpoints to fix something that should've been considered from the get-go, without complete compensation, is just another time sinkGǪgeez
If you currently have maxed frig cruiser BS., my take is they will give you Dessie 4 and BC 4. If you have all them maxed you get ****. They need to go into more detail of exactly what they intend, but some pilots will end up coming out golden and others won't. EVE is a harsh, cold...well...you know.
Mr Epeen
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 00:27:00 -
[87] - Quote
Meh, Skills are skills... Training time is merely an inconvenience.
"That is why we want to remove ship tiers altogether, then refocus our balancing philosophy to be based on role. That means finding common themes, or lines that fit ships with the same purpose, then adjusting slot layout, HP and fittings within each class to support this goal."
This is the most important thing in the dev blog, imo. Long overdue, and will breath new life back into a helluva lot of ships if they can pull it off.
Here's hoping.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
387
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 00:29:00 -
[88] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I didn't want to make a real comment until I went over that blog a few times to be sure I understood it properly. My conclusion is this: This is how it should have been since the beginning. It's a logical, straight forward progression that is intuitive and makes perfect sense. Will it be a messy transition? No doubt. Do they need to spend some time making it fair to all? Absolutely Does the reallocation of SP or simply giving SP need to be handled with great tact and diplomacy? **** yeah. But all that aside. And once the furor dies down. I think most will appreciate that this just feels right and is the way it should have always been. Mr Epeen
I agree with all of this completely... but just to be clear "messy transition" is an understatement. I've been thinking all day about how to automate SP reallocation or SP reassignment to new skills... that automation will be important because there are more than a few characters on the server and a petition for each seems a bit much for the GMs. There are too many dependent skill variables for me to make it work in my head (granted, my brain is still on DOS 3.2). I agree that it will probably be better for the game to streamline it, but as for getting from here to there without a bucket of tears and a sore a**... well GL to CCP. I genuinely mean that. It's going to be a complex hassle and there will be a lot of broken hearts.
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Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 00:32:00 -
[89] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Flex Carter wrote:If weGÇÖve already GÇ£maxedGÇ¥ out training in skills such as cruiser, battlecruiser, command ship, battleship and/or any of the capitals, are we going to be required to rob from Peter to give to Paul now (just so they can add another skill or two)GǪ Sure, they will give us some skill points but will it be enough to still have 5GÇÖs across the board? IGÇÖm not sure if anyone has considered this but what about our shipfits that required level 5 just to even fit the damn thing properly? CCP Soundwave wrote:No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up. Just because IGÇÖll be able to fly it at level 3 or 4 after the change Mr. Peabody doesnGÇÖt mean itGÇÖs the same as me flying it at level 5 nowGǪ Reallocating skillpoints to fix something that should've been considered from the get-go, without complete compensation, is just another time sinkGǪgeez https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=900335#post900335
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Ok this thread needs some love now.
SKILLS:
[list]
Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5..
Thanks Steve Ronuken, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm good now... |
baltec1
774
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 00:36:00 -
[90] - Quote
I'm cool with this. |
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